More bad news surfaces

[commodorejohn]

You actually tried Win 8 yet, John?

Nope. Has it become not a catastrophically stupid idea while I wasn't looking?

[Duce]

Then every word you shout from the mountaintops about it carries no weight at all.  You're that guy every city in RL has, underneath the bridge on the freeway, wearing a tinfoil hat shouting doom and gloom about something you admittedly *haven't even tried*.

People that have used it will be happy to tell you what is wrong with it.  I'm one of them.  Many will also tell you that it's absolutely rock stable, faster than Windows 7, and how the Metro interface you spew vehemence about can be entirely disabled with a few simple clicks.  

I'm no apologist for MS, or Windows 8.  I'm a MCSE/MSCA that only got into Windows 8 because I was forced to support it and be familiar with it if I want to pay my bills and put food on my table.  I will be the first guy to tell you what an unmitigated train wreck Windows RT is/was.  I'll be the first guy to tell you that the whole "2 OS's in one" idea was a bad one in regards to W8 x86 having a full touch (Metro) interface in addition to a full (and improved compared to W7) traditional desktop interface.  It confused the common man something terrible, and MS are now back pedaling with 8.1, which is due out (for free, upgrade wise) in October.  I still use Windows 7 as my main OS, for the record.  But I imagine 8.1 will change that some.  I have no doubts 10 years from now, Windows 8 initial version will be viewed as more of an unmitigated, confusing mess than Vista ever was.  But I've also used 8.1, and it is leaps and bounds better.  Your opinions are in no way wrong, infact you are spot on when you point out what is wrong with it, but the point to make is anything you say about it wasn't gained by the slightest bit of personal trial of W8 at all.

For a very intelligent, well spoken fellow John - the fact you go off the rails at any given opportunity about something you have not even laid hands on is, well - a bit embarrassing at worst, and hysterical at best.  Nothing personal, man.  Hell, half the reason I stick around A.org is to read posts from guys like you, but surely you can see the gross irony in all of it, no?

The least you owe yourself is to be educated in why you vehemently hate something so fiercely, and not ever trying it while hard lining against in on some holy war basis without even trying it is just weird.  I'd love for you to try it even for 10 minutes and write up a 4 page "why I hate Windows 8" post, but it's hard to take when you haven't even tried it, you know?  I'd relish every bad (or good) word you have to say about it - if you had even tried it.  Otherwise, you're just that weird dude that every city has that shouts at moving traffic about invisible aliens.

[psxphill]

But I've also used 8.1, and it is leaps and bounds better.

I disagree that it's leaps and bounds better. The amount that Windows 8.1 is better than Windows 8 by, isn't as big as the amount that Windows 8 is better than Windows 7 by.
 
I've got 8.1 on my netbook, but haven't gotten round to install it on my main laptop yet. While the benefits of Windows 8 persuaded me to install it immediately.
 

Nope. Has it become not a catastrophically stupid idea while I wasn't looking?

Who told you it ever was? Why did you believe them? I wouldn't let people manipulate you like that, their motives are unlikely to be good. Some people would get a kick out of winding you up like this.

[AmigaNG]

I unwisely made the jump to windows 8 with my new PC, I thought I'd give the befit of the doubt because some users say its not that bad, but it is just DOG SH#T!

Ok eventually you can set it up to be very much like Win7 and have just the desktop like experiences but until you do, expect productivity and easy of use to be cut down in half. Plus put it this way I've had three blue screens of death and not waking from sleep mode issues where as with win7 I dont recall ever having any crash or issue.

I also have ubuntu on my PC and I'm finding myself booting into that more often because of the issue and of course my AmigaONE x1000 so in a way I'm glad it so bad as I might now give up on Microsoft and literally only use for the odd exclusive game.

[psxphill]

Ok eventually you can set it up to be very much like Win7 and have just the desktop like experiences but until you do, expect productivity and easy of use to be cut down in half.

Can you explain what halved your productivity? And what you did to increase your productivity to Windows 7 levels.
 
When I first installed Windows 8 beta I missed the Start Menu & did all the hacks that brought it back. As I reinstalled each time I realised I was spending more time putting the hacks back to make myself comfortable than I actually ever did using them. Especially when I bothered to learn where everything had moved to.
 
Forcing people to accept change is not a bad thing. Even if it makes them temporarily uncomfortable.
 
About the only thing I ever change in the UI, which I've been doing for years now, is to enable single click in explorer. It really messes people up if they aren't used to it, but it's so much more productive. I think Microsoft toyed with making it the default and it's unfortunate they didn't have the balls to go through with it.
 

I also have ubuntu on my PC and I'm finding myself booting into that more often because of the issue and of course my AmigaONE x1000 so in a way I'm glad it so bad as I might now give up on Microsoft and literally only use for the odd exclusive game.

I don't get how you can say you can easily cope with the differences between Windows 7, Ubuntu and AmigaOS4, but say that the Windows 7 to Windows 8 changes halve your productivity. It makes it sound like you found an excuse to bash Microsoft than you have an actual problem.
 
For example I left my mum's computer on Vista because she has the clock and calendar on the sidebar and Windows 7 doesn't come with that & I really don't need the hassle of trying to make her comfortable with the change. She wouldn't be able to cope with switching to Ubuntu or AmigaOS though, but you can. Seems kinda odd that.

[gertsy]

That's all you really need to read. Just some lawyer douches trying to make some money. Probably have their friends and family shorting MSFT for a quick buck from all the bad publicity.

And the high probability that the same most likely promoted the story to the tech media in order to drum up potential litigants. And the media follows that insider source without checking or verification.
I have a Surface RT which I replaced my iPad 2 with last xmas. The iPad is my wife's now and I don't miss it at all. But I stopped listening to hype a while back.  It's outcomes and productivity that I use to determine successful products. The MS surface adverts make me cringe too. But that's marketing. We all know how great Commodore's marketing was. U keeping up with me?

BTW: What's the first thing people with and iPad do when they want to type on it?....Buy a 3rd party keyboard.

BTBTW: @Duce save your energy, it's not worth the effort. It's clear aliens are invisible otherwise we'd all see them.

[persia]

People resist change.  The Windows ball hasn't had start on it since 2007, yet people still call it the "Start Menu."  It's back in 8.1 and it basically does the same thing the Windows key does, it brings you to the Windows 8 Desktop.  What is wrong with the Windows 8 desktop?  Basically it doesn't look like the Windows 7 flop up menu, that's the bottom line.   People attacked the flop up "Start" button in Windows 95 when it first came out, for very valid reasons, but people have grown used to it and they now cling to it.  Face it, the flop up Windows ball was a dumb idea in 1994 and is even dumber 2 decades later.  I, for one, am happy to see it gone.

[gertsy]

People resist change.  The Windows ball hasn't had start on it since 2007, yet people still call it the "Start Menu."  It's back in 8.1 and it basically does the same thing the Windows key does, it brings you to the Windows 8 Desktop.  What is wrong with the Windows 8 desktop?  Basically it doesn't look like the Windows 7 flop up menu, that's the bottom line.   People attacked the flop up "Start" button in Windows 95 when it first came out, for very valid reasons, but people have grown used to it and they now cling to it.  Face it, the flop up Windows ball was a dumb idea in 1994 and is even dumber 2 decades later.  I, for one, am happy to see it gone.

"Start me up! If you start me up I never stop." How prophetic were those words. 18 years ago.
The start screen is the start menu. But it's an invisible alien at the moment.
The reality that we all think we know is based on context, knowledge and experience(scepticism and doubt can lead us into traps just as quickly as belief and fad) . Point of fact: https://www.facebook.com/ChristiansAgainstSlipknot?directed_target_id=0

[stefcep2]

People resist change.  The Windows ball hasn't had start on it since 2007, yet people still call it the "Start Menu."  It's back in 8.1 and it basically does the same thing the Windows key does, it brings you to the Windows 8 Desktop.  What is wrong with the Windows 8 desktop?  Basically it doesn't look like the Windows 7 flop up menu, that's the bottom line.  

I don't think thats all of it. I installed 8 on a Tablet PC.  It took longer using the touch interface with a touch pen to find and start the apps I wanted  IMO it comes down the inefficient use of screen size: massive tiles mean larger hand movements, more hand movements, less information within easy reach. It slows the user down, it creates an obstacle that just doesn't need to be there.

I installed a 3rd part start menu, 1 week later, and made 8 boot straight into the desktop.  But it still *felt* cumbersome: it takes more clicks to get to the control panel for example.

And the default theme windows just looks bad.

I eventually took it off after 1 month and went back to Windows 7.

[gertsy]

I don't think thats all of it. I installed 8 on a Tablet PC.  It took longer using the touch interface with a touch pen to find and start the apps I wanted  IMO it comes down the inefficient use of screen size: massive tiles mean larger hand movements, more hand movements, less information within easy reach. It slows the user down, it creates an obstacle that just doesn't need to be there.

I installed a 3rd part start menu, 1 week later, and made 8 boot straight into the desktop.  But it still *felt* cumbersome: it takes more clicks to get to the control panel for example.

And the default theme windows just looks bad.

I eventually took it off after 1 month and went back to Windows 7.

Hi stefcep2. What tablet PC did you install it on?
Did you try showing the control panel icon on the desktop?  
Right click or hold your finger/stylus on the desktop. Select "personalise" select "change desktop icons" check "control panel". Now you have control panel on the desktop just below my computer and network. No change from windows 7.

[persia]

I'd rather they just do away with the desktop and start in the Windows 8 tiles.  You can put anything you want in the tiles and arrange them any way you want.  So if you wanted a Control Panel tile you can have one.  

Scrolling the panels isn't bad either, just swipe to the left or right on the touchpad.  Most people have a tablet in addition to a desktop or laptop so the swipe gesture is within their comfort level.  Indeed in a smartphone and tablet world the flop up button is the odd one out, it's not "natural" in the sense you won't see it on other devices.

Windows 8 was a mis-step.  The folks at Apple realise that even though the gestures are similar the interfaces need to be different on laptops/desktops versus tablets/smartphones.

[commodorejohn]

Then every word you shout from the mountaintops about it carries no weight at all.  You're that guy every city in RL has, underneath the bridge on the freeway, wearing a tinfoil hat shouting doom and gloom about something you admittedly *haven't even tried*.

Oh, I was always going to be that guy. It's been my lifelong destiny.

And again, we come to this notion that you can't say something which plainly makes no sense (sticking a tablet UI on a desktop OS, positioning tablet UI as the future of desktop PCs) is stupid unless you've actually used it, because there's some kind of mystical property incommunicable in mortal tongues that makes it totally brilliant, and also the emperor isn't naked, you're just not refined enough to see his magnificent threads.

People that have used it will be happy to tell you what is wrong with it.  I'm one of them.  Many will also tell you that it's absolutely rock stable, faster than Windows 7, and how the Metro interface you spew vehemence about can be entirely disabled with a few simple clicks.

Yes, that is my understanding - but you know what? The fact that you can batter the stupidity into submission does not make it not stupid. You still have to set it to boot into desktop mode on a damn desktop PC (where it ought to be doing it by default,) you still have to resort to third-party hacks to get the Start menu back, you still have to employ a workaround to get to a whole assload of settings that used to be available right from the Control Panel, etc. All the snazzy technical underpinnings in the world won't make that not idiotic. I'll stop judging Microsoft on this crap when they stop pushing it.

Your opinions are in no way wrong, infact you are spot on when you point out what is wrong with it, but the point to make is anything you say about it wasn't gained by the slightest bit of personal trial of W8 at all.

This is absolutely the most baffling thing. You yourself agree with me, you say that nothing I'm saying is wrong, yet because my opinions were formed from observation and discussion rather than direct hands-on experience, they're missing the "magic something" required to make them meaningful?

Also, as regards 8.1, have they actually put the real Start Menu back yet? Last I heard they were still sticking you with the Metro screen...

[commodorejohn]

Who told you it ever was? Why did you believe  them? I wouldn't let people manipulate you like that, their motives are  unlikely to be good. Some people would get a kick out of winding you up  like this.

I like how you jump to the conclusion that some Svengali has been  feeding sinister anti-Win8 lies into my brain. Because of course I  couldn't have used my own powers of communication, observation, and  deduction to figure this out myself or something.

Forcing people to accept change is not a bad thing. Even if it makes them temporarily uncomfortable.

Right you are. So I'm going to chop off your legs and replace them with a fish tail. I know it's not what you're used to or want, but if you just try it you'll find that you're ever so much better a swimmer!

[ChaosLord]

This is absolutely the most baffling thing. You yourself agree with me, you say that nothing I'm saying is wrong, yet because my opinions were formed from observation and discussion rather than direct hands-on experience, they're missing the "magic something" required to make them meaningful?

He's telling you that you can't criticize anything unless you vote for it 100  times first. At 1 vote = $1.  Then realize you were wrong for voting that way.

Then you can criticize it.


This is like saying you can't criticize Obama for attacking Civil Rights, Snowden, etc. unless you voted for him.

This is like saying you can't criticize the locked-down stupidity of the iphone unless you first buy one and spend 20 hours using it and trying to figure out how to unlock it.

This is like saying you can't criticize lawyers for filing fake lawsuits unless you have actually been a lawyer and filed fake lawsuits yourself.

This is like saying you can't criticize the cops for beating up an unarmed person laying on the ground unless you have actually been a cop before.

[Duce]

If you are comparing serious social and political issues that effect us all, regardless of our respective races, color, creed or similar -  to ones opinion on the latest operating system to hit the market, we're really on two different planets here, lol.  

What I am saying is armchair quarterbacking on something you've never even used is just about the most self defeating thing one can do.  There's errors absolutely EVERYWHERE in the posts.  Information culled off various halfwit news services that simply isn't true, lol.  Someone that spent 10 minutes with it would know better.  People with such vehemence to actually call things outright awful or refer to things as "failures" should at least take the time to experience it and dislike something based on their own experiences.

8.1 is a free download.  Gonna hate something, at least be able to say "yeah, I tried it, and here's 100 reasons why I dislike it!".

You're right - we do agree on many of the bad things about Windows 8.  Difference is, I know why I don't care for them due to hands on experience rather than via whatever.

You wouldn't pay much mind nor have much use for a movie critic in the local newspaper if every review he writes starts out with:

"I didn't bother seeing the film, but I think I got a good idea what it's like from watching trailers on TV for it.  My brother says it sucks, my paperboy says it sucks, so it obviously sucks - 2 thumbs down!!!!"

would you?  No, you wouldn't.  

Re: Phil.  I've found 8.1 offers far better gaming performance over 8.0, so that's leaps and bounds to me, as I'm a pretty big gamer.

[ChaosLord]

You wouldn't pay much mind nor have much use for a movie critic in the local newspaper if every review he writes starts out with:

"I didn't bother seeing the film, but I think I got a good idea what it's like from watching trailers on TV for it.  My brother says it sucks, my paperboy says it sucks, so it obviously sucks - 2 thumbs down!!!!"

I trust what the brother and paperboy say over what any film critic says.


Seriously, I have found that professional movie reviewers have warped tastes and they are completely out of touch with regular ppl.

I have read many surveys that confirm this.



Ok, back to the W8 topic: I am a little bit surprised that you like W8 for gaming.  The other day my brother was reading over a list of games to try out and a  lot of the games said "Does not work on Windows 8".  So it would seem to me that, overall, Windows7 would be better for gaming.

I haven't yet seen any Windows8 games that said "Does not work on Windows7".  I am sure they exist but I think they far fewer in number.