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Offline som99

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Re: More bad news surfaces
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2013, 08:52:10 PM »
Quote from: motrucker;744720
Don't just laugh at M$, look at the junk HP is trying to foist on us with their "all in one" garbage. What a bunch of crap!


I have to agree, I see no point at all to buy an "all in one pc" but that's just me, I don't like to buy new hardware with limited expandability, commonly subjects to heat problems and no work space inside the case, and to not forget your stuck with the display you got whether you like it or not :(
 

Offline psxphill

Re: More bad news surfaces
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2013, 09:14:32 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;744705
but Microsoft has got it into their heads that they can just forcibly transmogrify their customer base into entirely different people with different requirements out of a computer by sheer force of will.

No, they offered a product that was like one of their previous products but also like a product that was selling well in the market.
 
I'm sick of the anti Windows 8 FUD. I've been using Windows for years, it used to be terrible but Windows 2000 onwards is fine. I prefer Windows 8 on my laptop that came with Vista than any previous OS & I haven't been brainwashed.
 
Word on the street is this is a sham suit.
 
 
Quote from: commodorejohn;744721
Nobody wanted desktop Windows to be a tablet OS. Very few people even wanted a Microsoft-branded tablet.

a. Windows 8 works fine as a desktop os, I don't even know what a tablet OS is. You seem to be talking about the change from the Start Menu to the Start Screen. I rarely used the Start Menu, I never use the Start Screen as all the prior Start Menu functionality is available without using it.
 
b. When did you get back from asking everybody what they wanted from desktop Windows?
 
c. Giving people what they want is stupid, because people are stupid (which is why democracy never works). A good example of this was I recently found someone complaining that Microsoft were using standard AA batteries for the Xbox one controller, like they want to have to buy a proprietary battery from Microsoft or something. There are people vocal about taking the Start Menu away, but there was an even bigger backlash against Microsoft when they introduced the Start Menu in 1995 (according to the reports, everybody wanted it to look like Windows 3.1).
 
I wouldn't buy an Android tablet because I don't want to throw away a perfectly good tablet because the manufacturer doesn't want to provide security updates. Apple and Microsoft are going to become the only real options in the tablet and phone market. Apple won't compete at the low end of the market, which leaves Microsoft as the only one worth buying.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 09:33:53 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: More bad news surfaces
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2013, 09:29:17 PM »
They altered an existing product line into something different and are expecting people to switch to that (it's not like they're going to continue selling 7 indefinitely, or do the sensible thing and spin off a tablet OS,) despite the fact that basically nobody wanted it and huge numbers of people repeatedly told them so very publicly during development.

Nobody said you were brainwashed. Doesn't mean you have good taste.
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Offline psxphill

Re: More bad news surfaces
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2013, 09:39:58 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;744732
huge numbers of people repeatedly told them so very publicly during development.

Every time a few idiots start a hate campaign against Microsoft it makes the news. Once you ignore them and just get on with using it then you will have a much happier life.
 
Having a separate tablet OS doesn't work, they already did that with Windows XP Tablet PC edition. The only way to make the market move is to include it in the standard OS, which they did for Windows 7. Windows 8 is just a slight upgrade of that, because Windows 7 didn't persuade enough people to use a tablet.
 
The idea of Metro is good, maybe not the execution. However it doesn't harm you if you don't use it, I don't ever use it. Although in the long term desktop apps will disappear, so hopefully they'll have got it sorted by then. I'm not sure how all software will work being installed from an app store, but to solve the install/uninstall problem in Windows it needs to change (you get the same problems in Linux/MacOS, it just doesn't show up because of the lack of apps and the users).
 
I was hoping that we'd see Windows 8 laptops with Kinect bundled, so you could use hand waving gestures to control it. But then I'm not a luddite.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 09:52:34 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline ChaosLord

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Re: More bad news surfaces
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2013, 09:47:35 PM »
@psxphil

Why do you run Windows 8?

What was so bad about Windows 7 that you had to throw it away and run out and buy Windows 8?
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline psxphill

Re: More bad news surfaces
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2013, 10:06:39 PM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;744735
Why do you run Windows 8?
 
What was so bad about Windows 7 that you had to throw it away and run out and buy Windows 8?

Windows 8 is better than Windows 7, it's quicker & has more functionality.
 
There are some machines that can run Windows 7 but not Windows 8, from around the Pentium 3 timeframe. Unless you a really old machine then the only reason I can think of to stick with Windows 7 is an attachment to the Start Menu, Aero or XP Mode.
 
I don't have an emotional attachment to any of the "contentious" changes, so I don't have any reason to deprive myself of Windows 8's benefits.
FWIW I quite liked Vista as well, it was the first viable version of 64 bit windows. I couldn't see why I should deprive myself of that and stick to XP either.
 
I do tend to upgrade early and I'm not saying you all have to upgrade, I wouldn't actually persuade anyone to upgrade any software at all unless they could easily embrace change, even if the software they were used to and happy with was a steaming pile of excrement.
 
People who hate change will always hate change, whether the change is good or not. Hating on Windows 8 when you don't like change is dumb, it's only purpose is to legitimise their feelings by influencing less informed people (it's like starting your own religion).
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 10:24:08 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: More bad news surfaces
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2013, 10:06:50 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;744734
Every time a few idiots start a hate campaign against Microsoft it makes the news. Once you ignore them and just get on with using it then you will have a much happier life.
Yes, once you discount all the people who object to a thing, there cannot be any dissent! Clearly! (And the fact that nobody has any objection to Windows 8 fits perfectly with the way its rate of adoption has only just recently surpassed that of Vista.)
 
Quote
Having a separate tablet OS doesn't work, they already did that with Windows XP Tablet PC edition. The only way to make the market move is to include it in the standard OS, which they did for Windows 7. Windows 8 is just a slight upgrade of that, because Windows 7 didn't persuade enough people to use a tablet.
First off, XP Tablet failed for a multitude of reasons: its UI sucked, the hardware sucked and was also x86 at a time before x86 was any good for sub-laptop mobile hardware, and there was essentially no software tailored for a good tablet user experience other than the pack-ins. None of those had anything to do with its status as a spin-off.

Second, I'm curious as to how you think Windows 7, with its megalithic GPU-intensive Aero UI, was in any way intended as a tablet OS...
 
Quote
The idea of Metro is good, maybe not the execution. However it doesn't harm you if you don't use it, I don't ever use it.
"This new product totally isn't a failure if you simply avoid exactly the thing that most differentiates it from its own predecessor!"

Quote
Although in the long term desktop apps will disappear, so hopefully they'll have got it sorted by then.
Right, because everybody's developing all that great new Metro software that will totally fill all the gaps left by 17+ years of quality Win32 software. No worries there!

Quote
I'm not sure how all software will work being installed from an app store, but to solve the install/uninstall problem in Windows it needs to change
I fail to see how "developers give Microsoft 30% of their revenue" is a necessary part of a solution to wonky installation issues.
 
Quote
I was hoping that we'd see Windows 8 laptops with Kinect bundled, so you could use hand waving gestures to control it. But then I'm not a luddite.
You know, some people don't object to Kinect because they're Luddites. Some people object to Kinect because A. controlling things by waving your arms around is a hell of a lot more work than controlling them with a mouse and keyboard, B. it makes you look like a total spaz, and C. it will likely cause the person sitting next to you on the plane to bash your head in with your own laptop.
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Offline psxphill

Re: More bad news surfaces
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2013, 10:29:18 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;744737
Yes, once you discount all the people who object to a thing, there cannot be any dissent! Clearly! (And the fact that nobody has any objection to Windows 8 fits perfectly with the way its rate of adoption has only just recently surpassed that of Vista.)

You're a hypocrite, you discount all the people who don't object to it all the time.
 
Windows sales figures are generally tied in with new PC sales, which we know aren't selling because everybody is currently buying tablets instead. Which is why Microsoft are trying to enter the tablet market again. Your argument shows that Microsoft should have made Windows 8 more like an ipad or android tablet.
 
 
Quote from: commodorejohn;744737
Second, I'm curious as to how you think Windows 7, with its megalithic GPU-intensive Aero UI, was in any way intended as a tablet OS...

You could get Windows 7 tablets, which were controllable with pens and gestures. Microsoft rolled the Windows XP tablet features rolled into Windows 7, so you can enable them on Windows 7. How is that not intended as a tablet OS?
 
I was tempted by a Windows 7 tablet.
 
http://szinnovation588.en.made-in-china.com/product/RoXEajAdLKWO/China-10-2-Touch-LCD-160G-Hardware-With-Windows-7-Tablet-PC-M-01-.html
 
Quote from: commodorejohn;744737
"This new product totally isn't a failure if you simply avoid exactly the thing that most differentiates it from its own predecessor!"

The thing that most differentiates Windows 8 from Windows 7 for me is the performance enhancements and the extra functionality. I don't see how something that is optional and can be ignored can be seen as the major differentiation.
 
Quote from: commodorejohn;744737
Right, because everybody's developing all that great new Metro software that will totally fill all the gaps left by 17+ years of quality Win32 software. No worries there!

The problem is that most Win32 software is written by idiots, so Microsoft needs to push managed apps that have a standard structure so the idiots can stop messing up peoples computers.
 
Quote from: commodorejohn;744737

I fail to see how "developers give Microsoft 30% of their revenue" is a necessary part of a solution to wonky installation issues.

Those are two different issues, an app store doesn't require developers to give Microsoft 30% of revenue. There are benefits to having the apps tested by Microsoft before being unleashed on PC's. Having to clean up friends and family's computers for years when they installed software they got tricked into installing on some web page, I actually quite like the idea of only allowing them to install software that has been verified by Microsoft.
 
Quote from: commodorejohn;744737

You know, some people don't object to Kinect because they're Luddites. Some people object to Kinect because A. controlling things by waving your arms around is a hell of a lot more work than controlling them with a mouse and keyboard, B. it makes you look like a total spaz, and C. it will likely cause the person sitting next to you on the plane to bash your head in with your own laptop.

People mainly don't like Kinect because they are scared the camera is being used to spy on them. I was hoping for Microsoft to actually push Kinect and makes something better than a keyboard and mouse, assuming that it's impossible for it to be done better than a keyboard or mouse is proof you are a luddite. For instance the Kinect could track your hand, duplicating the functionality of a mouse without having to hold something or have a flat surface. The camera doesn't necessarily have to be pointing at your face.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 10:52:31 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: More bad news surfaces
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2013, 10:59:17 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;744741
You're a hypocrite, you discount all the people who don't object to it all the time.
No I don't, I just don't care what they think.
 
Quote
Windows sales figures are generally tied in with new PC sales,  which we know aren't selling because everybody is currently buying  tablets instead. Which is why Microsoft are trying to enter the tablet  market again. Your argument shows that Microsoft should have made  Windows 8 more like an ipad or android tablet.
I won't dispute that Microsoft should've handled their tablet OS better  if they really want to get into the tablet market (though in my opinion  it's far, far too late for another major player to enter that game.)  What I'm saying is that it was a terrible idea to try and make the  desktop OS and the tablet OS the same thing.
 
 
Quote
You could get Windows 7 tablets, which were controllable with pens and gestures. Microsoft rolled the Windows XP tablet features rolled into Windows 7, so you can enable them on Windows 7. How is that not intended as a tablet OS?
Huh, hadn't heard of those, which I suppose is an indicator of how big a splash they made. I'd still maintain that there's a big difference between including optional tablet-adaptation features and actually being full-fledged geared toward tablet use.
 
Quote
The thing that most differentiates Windows 8 from Windows 7 for me is the performance enhancements and the extra functionality. I don't see how something that is optional and can be ignored can be seen as the major differentiation.
It can be seen that way because it is the immediate, public face of Windows 8 and the biggest thing they've been promoting about it...
 
Quote
The problem is that most Win32 software is written by idiots, so Microsoft needs to push managed apps that have a standard structure so the idiots can stop messing up peoples computers.
And you think that Metro software isn't going to be written by idiots? Or that "standard structure" will help? Tell me again, how much crap shovelware is there on the iOS App Store?
 
Quote
Those are two different issues, an app store doesn't require developers to give Microsoft 30% of revenue.
The Windows Store does. Maybe some hypothetical app store wouldn't, but that's hardly relevant to a discussion of Windows 8.

Also, I'm curious about this notion that a centralized software repository will solve all installation woes forever. Because, uh, it sure hasn't seemed to work for Linux.
 
Quote
People mainly don't like Kinect because they are scared the camera is being used to spy on them. I was hoping for Microsoft to actually push Kinect and makes something better than a keyboard and mouse, assuming that it's impossible for it to be done better than a keyboard or mouse is proof you are a luddite. For instance the Kinect could track your hand, duplicating the functionality of a mouse without having to hold something or have a flat surface. The camera doesn't necessarily have to be pointing at your face.
Yeah, the spy-camera potential is another good reason to avoid it, but seriously: even just as a mouse replacement, it's at least as much work for negligible advantage. Suggesting it would be a better keyboard than a keyboard is frankly imbecilic.
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Offline SysAdminTopic starter

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Re: More bad news surfaces
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2013, 11:32:51 PM »
Why does this Ad look like it could totally be updated to sell the Surface?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk

:)
Posts on this account before August 4th, 2012 don\'t belong to me.
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: More bad news surfaces
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2013, 11:37:22 PM »
Ye gods. The man has looked identical over the course of my entire lifetime.

Now I'm curious to see what the portrait in his attic looks like.
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Offline som99

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Re: More bad news surfaces
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2013, 11:55:22 PM »
Quote from: SysAdmin;744756
Why does this Ad look like it could totally be updated to sell the Surface?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk

:)


Hahaha, made me smile :)
 

Offline save2600

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Re: More bad news surfaces
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2013, 12:57:53 AM »
At first, I couldn't see how "bad news" regarding M$ products was bad - but I get it now. Bad news surfaces... I see what you did there.  :lol:
 

Offline SysAdminTopic starter

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Posts on this account before August 4th, 2012 don\'t belong to me.
 

Offline Duce

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Re: More bad news surfaces
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2013, 07:43:02 AM »
You actually tried Win 8 yet, John?
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: More bad news surfaces
« Reply #29 from previous page: August 15, 2013, 07:58:13 AM »
Quote from: Duce;744800
You actually tried Win 8 yet, John?
Nope. Has it become not a catastrophically stupid idea while I wasn't looking?
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