Loosing faith in the Amiga "community", like so many before me

[MikeB]

jtsiren wrote:

> I firmly believe that if one wants to write an article
> from a "slaughtering point of view", one could
> easily and with merit do so for both of these
> products

Agreed. Note, that I did not slaughter MorphOS neither AmigaOS4 in my articles, I only said it was easy if someone with a MacOS X or Windows perspective would want to do so. Also note that I have pointed out these disadvantages in my Amiga articles as well.

> I'm sure we could find someone unbiased about
> this issue in particular

I believe you are wrong. Currently only one who would want to do an in depth review or preview are people who have experience with the platform.

Even if there were people without any experience they would still be biased. As for instance they have been using Windows or MacOS. And if they haven't used computers at all they would most likely still be biased, maybe they view computers as useless and so forth.

[Billsey]

@ MikeB

I know it's difficult, but please don't give up. Bill, Fleecy, and Company need people like you to stick it out and make sure the truth gets out into the public square. People that are spreading lies run from the light. Those who want the truth run to the light. Don't give up. Please.

[SlimJim]

>> This "community" is officially a bloody shambles.
 
> I agree.
 
The reason people think like that is that you and others keep repeating it. Sure, there are some rotten eggs here, only looking to stir up trouble and annoy people. But there are also _always_ people (here as well as on ANN) trying to give honest, constructive comments and even positive remarks(!). But the strange thing is that noone care to respond to such constructive and/or positive posts. Instead people bicker to and forth with those few eternal nay-sayers. That's the reason they seem to take so much room these days - the very much existant "worthy comments" are simply ignored.
 If you select to reply to only the negaitive stuff you have yourself to blame when the thread turns into a negative flamewar.
 
So in all, it's you and me that give the few (in our opinion) 'rotten eggs' too much space. Focus on the serious, constructive people (and they ARE there, some of you have just learned not to see them) and stop going on about "the community is in shambles" like it's some god-given truth you (or I) cannot do anything about.
.
SlimJim

[DaveP]

"So in all, it's you and me that give the few (in our opinion) 'rotten eggs' too much space. Focus on the serious, constructive people (and they ARE there, some of you have just learned not to see them) and stop going on about "the community is in shambles" like it's some god-given truth you (or I) cannot do something about."

That sounds suspiciously like sticking your head in the sand Jim

The user base is just constantly gnawing at each other at the moment
and sure, trying to correct it could even perpetuate it but ignoring
it is not going to make it go away either.

Yep, its a shambles - thats what a shambles means Jim it means
something that needs to be sorted out, tackled and turned around
but is in such a mess that you don't really know where to start or
what approach to use.

[Phoenix]

I love Amiga and its community, any ideas how I can support it more??

I thought the MAC era had gone the way of the dodo, is doesnt seem that way now!

Amiga will return in some form (hopefully not in a furbees brain!!) Long live Amiga!!

I am with you,
I got an "new" Amiga from Merlancia, but it was broken when i got it!
And I feel that Software hut has ripped me off! You are right, the Amiga dealers are not behaving like they should.
But the community is nice :-)


Erik

[SlimJim]

> That sounds suspiciously like sticking your head in the
> sand Jim
 
Actually, I don't think so. My theory (and experience) is that there are a few people (like many famous Anonymous on ANN) that just pops into a thread and spit out something stupid to stir up trouble. It happens all the time and it's mostly very obvious. What bothers me is that everyone starts replying angrily to that "stir-up" post, and simply IGNORES the four-five _sensible_ posters that almost always appear to post "good"/constructive/serious comments right behind the Anonymous one. Those potentially interesting and noteworthy threads are simply lost - and then people start saying that everyone in the community is a fanatic and that all they see is negativity.
 
As long as people don't take time to reply to sensible comments, the "stir-ups" will reign.
 I guess people just like more to follow a good flame-fest then to pick up on the sensible stuff.

> The user base is just constantly gnawing at each other
> at the moment
> and sure, trying to correct it could even perpetuate it
> but ignoring
> it is not going to make it go away either.

I think we should be mature enough to identify and ignore those who only live to pick a fight for the sake of it.
 
> Yep, its a shambles - thats what a shambles means Jim
> it means
> something that needs to be sorted out, tackled and
> turned around
> but is in such a mess that you don't really know where
> to start or
> what approach to use.
 
A community is all in how you perceive it. When I read ANN, I'm constantly amazed when the good/insightful posters are subsequently insulted (albeit indirectly) by people saying that noone does anything but bicker and that the community is crap. Call it "sticking the head in the sand" if you will, but if people would just learn to ignore the right people, the impression of this community as a whole would change to the better.
.
SlimJim

[magic2002]

I think there ought to be an Amiga Parlament. Your all sounding like ranting five year olds, who`s better than who, your article is crappyer than that. Who cares?

Its JUST A COMPUTER!!! A damn good one and all... :-D

[jtsiren]

>> I'm sure we could find someone unbiased about
>> this issue in particular
>I believe you are wrong. Currently only one who
>would want to do an in depth review or preview are
>people who have experience with the platform.

Well, yeah. What I meant was... and here is the full quote...

"I'm sure we could find someone unbiased about this issue in particular, but then that person probably would also have to be completely ignorant and unknowledgeable about it."

...I meant someone like my mother or someone like that who has no knowledge of computers. I doubt she'd have any bias on this issue, but then, she'd also have no expertise to choose either way.

With expertise comes experience (or, actually, the other way around) and thus bias. On that we do agree. But now we're just nit-picking. Sorry.

In any case, of course, with professional journalists there are guidelines to follow that help control this bias. Such as always asking for both sides of the story and leaving opinions to opinion pieces only (columns). But with the advent of Internet and high exposure and reach of amateur articles, much of this responsibility also falls on amateur writers.

Your articles seem to suggest that not only do you favour one of the alternatives, you actively support and want to support its growth. Or how else would you explain the calls for help in the end of your AmigaOS article versus the far more restrained ending of your MorphOS article?

This is, of course, your choice and you are welcome to have it. I wish you the best. But if you want to be taken as a somewhat objective (a relative term) writer, you may have to choose either the latter way of writing - you probably can't have both without a strong bias shining through.

You said above that you think people like your articles because you add your opinions. I don't know what other people want, but I do know what I'd like to see. I'd really appreciate more articles without opinions and product-support agendas  (and if they are opinion pieces, they should be clearly labeled as such). But that is of course just me.

[DaveP]

This is why most sensible forums will accept they
have this problem and "mod down" the stupid comments until they are not seen.

Since when have you seen an "ignore the troll" policy work on USENET for example?

But I do not think this is even what Mike complains about in the community. I am paraphrasing but he does not like the fact that those perpetrating "illegal" activity are getting away with it and their "supporters" are "winning" the argument.

The reason I think the "community" is a shambles is not because of ANN per se but because it has no focus on what it is there for.

I dunno if you consider me a troll or not...i know i do troll sometimes...but... i dont think 'ignore the troll' works very well...it might here on Amiga.org because we have names...but on say Ann.lu/MooBunny/Usenet/etc it wont work...people change names and come back and do the same stuff again and again....
I know a guy on opn  that trolls amiga on usenet and he dosent even like amigas he does it because the community is easily inflamed he said....
I think the real issue is the 'backlash' things get....i mean...for example you go into a Linux forum and type 'Linux sucks' alot of people dont 'ignore' it they reply but they say 'piss off' or 'go away' ... amiga community tends to actually take these posts serious and try to reason with someone who by nature dosent care what you argue the point of a 'troll' is to get you to waste time.....heh

Amiga's getting alot more trolling lately is a GOOD THING more then a 'BAD" one since it means we have alot more people paying attention and comming around to see what's going on...of course with that the troll count rises but also rises the ammount of good people...and potential consumers for products like the Pegasos/OS4 etc....
I dont mind trolls most of the time i find it funny because it shows who's a moron and who isnt ....sometimes I'm even guilty of getting trolled...but all in all it's part of the fun of the internet.

this post for example...if taken litterly could be a troll...by mike....
since he said he was threatend and looked to provoke some reaction by not posting much more then the fact 'he was threatend'....thats a 'sideways troll' ... coupled whining+accusations ... you got a troll...but we dont look at things technically :O) since it's more fun to troll back and fourth..

[SlimJim]

@DaveP

Since when have you seen an "ignore the troll" policy work on USENET for example?

 
True. I'm not saying it's possible to eliminate the trolls by ignoring them, what I'm opposing is that people ONLY take the trolls into account, and base their opinion of the community on those alone. People say they don't know how to fix the community. This is my proposal.
 

But I do not think this is even what Mike complains about in the community. I am paraphrasing but he does not like the fact that those perpetrating "illegal" activity are getting away with it and their "supporters" are "winning" the argument.

Yes I suppose that is his grievance, and that is of course a much more serious problem/accusation than mere troll mentality. I cannot comment on that though as I don't know enough about what is happening behind the scenes. All I see of the community is what I see in the forums.

The reason I think the "community" is a shambles is not because of ANN per se but because it has no focus on what it is there for.

 
Ah, this is a good point Dave. On this definition of "in shambles" I agree and there is not all that much to do about it.  Until we get some new products to discuss that is - then that problem will just melt away I imagine.
.
SlimJim

[strobe]

The reason MorphOS has so many supporters is because they have shown a new OS running on new hardware which can run their old 3.x software very quickly.

What have we seen from the Amiga partnership? We have seen a demonstration of AmigaOS 3.x with some 4.x elements running on a A4000. It was very buggy and depressing. We have seen the AmigaOne displayed and sometimes running LinuxPPC. I don't know about you folks but I have zero interest in Linux.

What can we expect from Amiga Inc? I expect the AmigaOne with a G3 processor soldered on the board to be sold December this year. It won't run AmigaOS4 for a very, very long time. I expect that some form of AmigaOS 4 will be released for 68k machines late next year. I expect some form of PowerPC capability later than that which will run WarpOS, ppclibrary, etc. titles if you have an accelerator.

What is the absolute earliest we can expect AmigaOS 4 running on new hardware? I wouldn't expect it to arrive before 2004. I would be AMAZED if the 3.x libraries are PowerPC native by then. By then MorphOS ought to have superior compatibility with 3.x titles. In all honesty I don't see why anybody would be prepared to wait that long when we have a fully native OS which can run 3.x software well before then.

Consider this excerpt from the "Finnish Amiga User Group 2002 meeting held in Oulu, Finland on September 28th, 2002" report. From the ReadMe.txt:



vuosi2002_11.jpg: AmigaOneG3-SE motherboard, sadly missing a working BIOS.
Deliveries should start by Christmas.

vuosi2002_12.jpg: AmigaOne-XE prototype, which refused to boot. The user
group will demonstrate a working AmigaOne at a later date.

vuosi2002_13.jpg: Pegasos setup all ready to rock. Notice the gracefully
placed microphone used for Shoutcast streaming.

Please note that "Deliveries should start by Christmas" means the AmigaOne with the G3 soldered on which doesn't have an OS other than LinuxPPC. If, come Christmas, you want to run Linux why would you buy this board? Some people will suggest that buying this board will help support the development of AmigaOS 4. These people will be fools or liars.

The Amiga partnership has been a total and utter embarassment. They have been given the relatively easy task of rewriting AmigaOS into an AmigaOS-compatible OS. BPlan on the other hand wrote a completely new Amiga 3.x software compatible PowerPC-native OS from scratch on new hardware and it actually works.

Amiga Inc, H&P, put up or shut the hell up. If you expect me to believe that the AmigaOne will EVER run anything other than Linux you better demonstrate something better than your already befouled goodwill. Demonstrate AmigaOS 4 even if it's only running on a A4000. Demonstrate it running PowerPC native software. Demonstrate some useful new functionality like memory protection. Please stop showcasing hardware which isn't running AmigaOS. It's sad, it's humiliating, it's old. Stop showing us a friggin list of new features unless they have actually been implemented. In other words stop showing us your TODO list! I mean cripes I could show people MY TODO list and I would look like a young man who traveled the world, won sports championships, and spread peace and prosperity for all mankind!

Amiga users are tired of living in a fooking dream world. Where's the BEEF?!

[SlimJim]

@strobe
 
At first I thought I was seeing double, but you DO post essentially the same post over and over again in as many forums and threads as you possibly can don't you?
.
SlimJim

[strobe]

Oh, and one more thing:

Stop showing us AmigaDE!

AmigaDE has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Amiga except the Name™. What's next? Will Amiga Inc. repackage horsemeat and label it AmigaFood™? If they did I bet you Amiga Inc. zealots would eat it! Maybe you can use the AmigaOne™ as a dinner plate, complete with AmigaFood™. Maybe you could become an official AmigaFool™ and convert all your money to AmigaFeduciaryMedia™ (aka T-shirts and coupons). Maybe you could buy a post-AmigaFood™-compatible disposal unit called the AmigaToilet™.

In all honesty AmigaDE and AmigaToilet have as much in common with the Amiga. Namely nothing but the friggin Name™.

Now give us what we want or we'll buy AmigaFoeOS™

Why are you including H&P in your vitriolic attack? If you got your facts straight you would know they have NOTHING to do with this. You are perhaps thinking of Hyperion?