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Author Topic: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?  (Read 49883 times)

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Offline number6

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2013, 04:37:38 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;741786
It pushed me away into the loving arms of MorphOS 3.2 on a PowerBook.

Hyperion could quite easily port OS4 to Mac hardware but for reasons only known to themselves they choose not to.

And before anyone starts with the BS excuse that they are legally bound to only support AmigaONE branded hardware I will point you to the Pegasos II and ACube SAM ports. Neither of those platforms are legally AmigaONE branded hardware.



All of that was prior to the importance of branding being stressed.
After your examples they rebranded Sam460 as "Amigaone 500".
One must protect the branding you know by using it.

Regardless, "they" have two h/w developers to consider now, and making such a decision would obviously affect them.

#6
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 04:42:48 PM by number6 »
 

Offline Crumb

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Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2013, 04:48:31 PM »
Quote from: vox;741701
I do intend to do "serious stuff" (which in my job is word processing and excel) in Linux PPC on X1000 so its not fun only. But I do feel joy for its ability to boot AmigaOS, and look forward to see OS 4.2 and beyond using it more and more. Its great Trevor provided proper Linux support.


If I wanted to run Linux I could do it on any x86-64 machine and it would be various times faster and better supported. Most of insteresting software runs on Windows. LinuxPPC would be my last choice if I wanted to run Linux. Even ARM distros are better supported.

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So validity is only price? x86 and PPC Mac users back in days must be all mad then :-)


The relationship price/features has always been much better on x86/Mac even brand new because software base and speed compared to competition is superior.

x1000 cpu power is poor compared to nowadays cpus, software is poor too (even if you take into account Linux) and price is too expensive. In contrast, let's say you spent the same quantity on a Mac or PC. speed would be blazing fast, software support would be great and price at least would be balanced to features. Spot the difference? I haven't even talked about boards breaking and finding replacements easily.

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Good. I can`t get PPC Macs on such low prices in this part of Europe, where they are still considered fetish and niche hardware. Surely its not the same, but I again do buy one computer.


And spending 2500€ on a slow&rare&expensive board is easier?

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Again, why paying 110$ for MorphOS when you had perfectly usable MacOS X or Linux PPC on same hardware


Because for that low price I can have a nice amiga experience easily, it's peanuts compared to 2500€. If I used Amiga OSes as rarely as some OS4 vocal supporters do (heck! some of them don't even use it) I could even live with the 30 minute limit :-D

If Mac hardware was a problem I could rely on AROS or UAE in the worst case.

There's nothing "custom" about x1000 or PPC Macs, these are just standard boards with PPC chip. IMHO Amigas were custom hardware, Dracos, x1000, AmigaOne or PPC Macs were not. BTW: I don't care about using "custom" hardware or not, but there's no single chip specifically designed for x1000 (like Agnus, Denise, Paula or Gary were) so it's quite funny some people insist on calling x1000 "custom hardware".

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- using the kind of logic what you are software wise able to do. So you have more for OS then for hardware box. Its different demonstration of logic why I and some people have decided to go X1000 - we will pay sacrifice for hardware price to drive software development, while you kind of did other way around. You payed for OS more then for hardware even it was kind of un-necessary for "serious bussiness"


I don't buy smoke so I pay for using the software I like right now, limited or not, I pay a small quantity of money and I enjoy it right now "as is", without hoping/wishing/dreaming about the future. If MorphOS stopped being developed tomorrow I would still enjoy my machine and my software. And when AROS became more mature I would probably use AROS. But there's nothing fancy about a standard PPC board released in prototype-like numbers sold for a expensive price as a donlge to run one of the incarnations of my favourite OS.

If you set the price so high you reduce the number of possible users and buying more expensive hardware doesn't help. Did AmigaOne SE, XE, uA1, Sam440, Sam460, x1000 help to lower the prices of hardware? no, they didn't. In fact the relationship price/features is much much much worse now than when A1 was released.

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Not saying that is a bad strategy since Genesi left - but Hyperion simply did not choose the same. As PPC Macs market slowly dissappears, MorphOS team will need to find next target. I am very glad for SAM 460 port of MorphOS and looking forward to see it at DJ Nicks machine.


Supporting Sam460 is a waste of time if you ask me, I would prefer that effort going to adding more features to the OS.

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My own parallel is: I could never afford BlizzardPPC or A4000 back in the days, I am happy that, with much sacrifice, I can afford X1000 now.


"Amigas" (even thought we are talking about an "AmigaONE" and not an "Amiga") were never as expensive as now and never had so poor relationchip between price and features. When Classic miggies were released these had good price/features ratio, it could be better or worse compared to PC/Mac but now it's way far behind.

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Just waiting for X1000 to be assembled and shipped, as sig says. Its paid.


Enjoy it, most of people who wants to try out OS4.x can't.

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One in all, its a biggest step forward (what A-EON is doing) for AOS4 alone since original port and old A1 board.


In which sense it is different? I see history repeating and the situation is even worse now than with A1 because price is various times more expensive.

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Why don`t I feel disaster you are predicting? Making PPC hardware possible, no matter the price, I do see as an achievement, as well as development for it.

Perhaps you are overoptimistic. think about how many classic users you knew and think about how many of them would spend 2500€ let alone 1000€ on Amiga with the available software and the poor features of the OS...
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Offline AmigaNG

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Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #61 on: July 23, 2013, 05:59:57 PM »
I just think its a shame that some people take posts and message far to seriously and then the opposite some people dont think really about how some of there comments are not really helpful but just bashing or go to far. That has really hurt the amiga community more so on this web site than others and I think it was partly due to lack of mods.

X1000 has it fair share of problems its true but it amazed me that in 2011 I was able to get a new Amiga feeling something I didn't get when I tried Aros on my net book and dont think I would of got that feeling buying a second hand mac,  I think it was the fact that this was a custom all in one machine and for that it was worth every penny, to others it may not be there idea/vision of what a new amiga should be and I completely understand that but to them I say try not to spoil our fun.

Offline nicholas

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2013, 06:06:33 PM »
Quote from: number6;741788
All of that was prior to the importance of branding being stressed.
After your examples they rebranded Sam460 as "Amigaone 500".
One must protect the branding you know by using it.

Regardless, "they" have two h/w developers to consider now, and making such a decision would obviously affect them.

#6

Twaddle.

they are cutting their noses off to spite their face.  They have lost many many sales by not porting to Mac hardware.
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Offline wawrzon

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2013, 06:55:05 PM »
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All of that was prior to the importance of branding being stressed.
After your examples they rebranded Sam460 as "Amigaone 500".

pretty late awakening..;) must be someone poked at their back and asked why "amigaos" isnt running on "amigas". alas, as that nick was taken..
 

Offline Fats

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Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2013, 07:03:44 PM »
Quote from: haywirepc;741670
People pointing out that they disagree with spending 3,000$ for a computer thats missing drivers or that has components that are not even supported by the OS is not bashing, its just expressing an opinion some don't agree with.


I becomes bashing if they make a sport of it to have it posted as high as possible in every OS4 related thread. Why can't these people just focus on what they like and have to focus on what they don't like ?
I read aorg daily and already know for months you, TMHGM, OlafS3 & co. won't buy an AEon machine. Why do you have to always repeat it ?
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Offline wawrzon

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2013, 07:34:11 PM »
@fats:
hmm, maybe im recalling wrong, but werent you once playing with an idea of getting an x1k?
 

Offline vox

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Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2013, 08:15:25 PM »
Quote from: Crumb;741789
If I wanted to run Linux I could do it on any x86-64 machine and it would be various times faster and better supported. Most of insteresting software runs on Windows. LinuxPPC would be my last choice if I wanted to run Linux. Even ARM distros are better supported.

Gladly there are Debian, Mint and Ubuntu that do quite well PPC support. I am not arguing ability of Linux to be run almost on anything, but I am arguing your past point that X1000 is merely just a toy. On Windows subject, yes, no one can beat its pro software except MacOS X.

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The relationship price/features has always been much better on x86/Mac  even brand new because software base and speed compared to competition  is superior.

I am not sure because for same money you can get 2-3 times faster x86 that can have all the same software in Windows even better performance in Linux compared to Linux on Mac x86. When AMD beats Intel in same cash category, Wintel combo beasts MacOS X way more. But OS is charming and easy and Mac is prestigious. Here you pay just  hipster bonus that is not reality based.

Point was its not always a price/performance that is determining factor. Also, if Apple was so kind to try to take over the world, they would open MacOS X to as many x86 boards and cards by encouraging devs to do drivers and selling just the software. But they don`t and do kind of Hyperion thing, just on x86. Earning on hw-sw combo. Just on way bigger market and with way better OS.


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Spot the difference? I haven't even talked about boards breaking and finding replacements easily.

Quite aware of these risks, but you should better ever not see how much Apple charges once warranty is out.

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And spending 2500€ on a slow&rare&expensive board is easier?

Its way more harder, including bank debt interest, but is way to support AmigaOS growing more mature and watching it grow.


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Because for that low price I can have a nice amiga experience easily,  it's peanuts compared to 2500€. If I used Amiga OSes as rarely as some  OS4 vocal supporters do (heck! some of them don't even use it) I could  even live with the 30 minute limit :-D

I ll try to do as much job and fun as software allows I to.


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There's nothing "custom" about x1000 or PPC Macs, these are just  standard boards with PPC chip. IMHO Amigas were custom hardware, Dracos,  x1000, AmigaOne or PPC Macs were not. BTW: I don't care about using  "custom" hardware or not, but there's no single chip specifically  designed for x1000 (like Agnus, Denise, Paula or Gary were) so it's  quite funny some people insist on calling x1000 "custom hardware".

Well PCI and PCI-E bus are standards and no one is reinventing the wheel. Dracos were quite custom thing au contrare, in old school sense. But X1000 is quite custom considering beside Acube there are no other PPC boards on sale. When I today say custom I think of new design, that haven`t existed before and not reselling some one elses designs.
In those terms x86 Macs are not a custom hardware, but X1000 is.
XMOS was nice try to have that old school spirit.

I was thinking of old school custom thing, but designing new graphics and audio chips with major players is simply waste of time. And PCs won and were competative just because more choices were avail for PCI slots then Zorro expansions, even Amiga bus was clever, good and offered many expansions. So nothing wrong there, not to mention big Amigas in the past also had ISA slots, beside Zorro.

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But there's nothing fancy about a standard PPC board released in  prototype-like numbers sold for a expensive price as a donlge to run one  of the incarnations of my favourite OS.

Oh its quite fancy just because of things mentioned as well as nice Fractal Design case :-) And same, expect extreme small numbers, could e.g. define Pegasos board.

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If you set the price so high you reduce the number of possible users and  buying more expensive hardware doesn't help. Did AmigaOne SE, XE, uA1,  Sam440, Sam460, x1000 help to lower the prices of hardware? no, they  didn't. In fact the relationship price/features is much much much worse  now than when A1 was released.

I believe A1 was done in higher quantity then any of those. Amiga market did shirink in dark age WHEN THERE WAS NO HARDWARE.

Now bitchin is because its expensive. Its hard to keep people happy,
Surely if there are more Amigans, hardware would be cheaper, and if hardware would be cheaper if there were more Amigans. But its not an easy spell to brake.

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Supporting Sam460 is a waste of time if you ask me, I would prefer that effort going to adding more features to the OS.

People do deserve their board well supported, and some of things like RadeonHD 3D driver should be an OS feature.


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"Amigas" (even thought we are talking about an "AmigaONE" and not an  "Amiga") were never as expensive as now and never had so poor  relationchip between price and features. When Classic miggies were  released these had good price/features ratio, it could be better or  worse compared to PC/Mac but now it's way far behind.

There is a bit illusion: similar situation was about time of A1200/4000/CD32. It only worsen when market shrinked. To me, AmigaOne is Amiga successor.

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Enjoy it, most of people who wants to try out OS4.x can't.

Thanks. They should go for SAM 440.

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Perhaps you are overoptimistic. think about how many classic users you knew and think about how many of them would spend 2500€ let alone 1000€ on Amiga with the available software and the poor features of the OS...

They already did that in OS 3.1 times. But its their own money and desision. I see no other alternative to go forward except to support what is on the table, and hope in the end it will lead to well developed OS with some usable apps, and if and when possible cheaper hw and more users. Meanwhile, it is what it is, I don`t try to negate that, but to enjoy it.
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Offline yssing

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Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2013, 09:26:33 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;741753
The disappointment was because people expected Hyperion to drop PPC and go to new and more powerful hardware (X86/X64),


Who expected that to happen?
Hyperion have stated time and time again, that a port to X86 is not going to happen.
So if any one got disappointed, then they must be living in an other world.

If they want some form of aos for x86, they can use aros or uae, or maybe persuade morphos developers to port that to x86 rather than depend on old macs.
 

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Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #68 on: July 23, 2013, 09:33:30 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;741801
Twaddle.

they are cutting their noses off to spite their face.  They have lost many many sales by not porting to Mac hardware.


Do you have some real facts, some real numbers or are you just speculating?
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #69 on: July 23, 2013, 10:06:36 PM »
Quote from: yssing;741835
Do you have some real facts, some real numbers or are you just speculating?


Personal experience. I know at least 30 people who would buy OS4 if it were available for Mac hardware, myself included.

I know of at least two of the OS4 developers that would like to see it ported to Mac hardware but he who must be obeyed Herr Fuhrer Hermans says no.

What is he afraid of? Could it be that people might compare it unfavorably to MorphOS on the same hardware and refrain from purchasing it?

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Offline Crumb

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Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #70 on: July 23, 2013, 10:33:32 PM »
Quote from: vox;741825

Oh its quite fancy just because of things mentioned as well as nice Fractal Design case :-) And same, expect extreme small numbers, could e.g. define Pegasos board.


Pegasos was an old PPC board released many years ago that costed half the price of a Mac Mini and offered decent performance playing videos and amiga stuff. It was slow but not as slow as sams or x1000 is compare to competition. There was even a G4 version. It's funn you ask because taking into account all that Sam boards (and its specs and price) you could define Pegasos as "a futuristic computer released almost a decade before of its time" (lol).

Don't you think it's sad that a computer released in prototype-like numbers ten years ago is both faster and cheaper than the ones released now (supposedly) to replace it?

Sam boards are both expensive&slow.

The best solution would be releasing OS4.x for existing Macs PPC (at least powerbook!) for those rare and weird users like me who don't mind using old computers and keeping the releases for those brand new computers OS4 lovers love. Selling 2000 OS4.x PPC Mac version to Amiga users will probably help to fund the development.

PPC is a dead end, it's ok to use it until OS4.x is ported to other architecture but it's a dead end after all and spending time supporting rare&expensive boards won't help to expand OS4 user base nor fund development. They should port it to Mac Mini for example and focus on improving the OS instead of supporting new boards released in a few hundreds.

Anyway I think we are going off topic, I just was explaining that it's not senseless bashing, that most users are angry&sad with Hyperion for their (Not very clever) hardware decissions.
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Offline ElPolloDiablTopic starter

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Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
« Reply #71 on: July 23, 2013, 10:41:23 PM »
I think I can speak for a few others. I was hoping Amiga could return to a Linux level of usability. It probably won't happen. The largest group of users are here for nostalgia or as a hobby.
If the pressure is off for a grand Amiga return (not going to happen) there won't be as many arguments.
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Offline spirantho

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #72 on: July 23, 2013, 10:41:32 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;741845

I know of at least two of the OS4 developers that would like to see it ported to Mac hardware but he who must be obeyed Herr Fuhrer Hermans says no.


I'm invoking Godwin's Law here! :)

There are many good reasons for why they didn't support the Mac, and it's been covered at length before.
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Offline nicholas

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #73 on: July 23, 2013, 11:07:45 PM »
Quote from: spirantho;741856
I'm invoking Godwin's Law here! :)

There are many good reasons for why they didn't support the Mac, and it's been covered at length before.


All of them BS too.

The reason is that Benji says no so it won't happen.

I have the ISO image of the Mac Mini port right here, so it's not only possible its quite simple.
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Offline save2600

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Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #74 from previous page: July 23, 2013, 11:45:55 PM »
X1000 bashing is the only reason I'm even aware the system sorta/kinda even exists.  lol

Too bad the cost of the damned thing (incomplete or missing drivers, under powered specs, etc. aside), will forever keep it and the OS in an irrelevant state to most. Still, it's great to see legacy hardware such as accelerators for the 2000/4000/1200 coming out of the woodwork so people can try to afford one of these beasties.  :)