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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Gaming => Topic started by: tonyvdb on January 05, 2015, 03:34:59 PM
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So Ive got two Wico joysticks and I just got my A4000 up and running again. Both joysticks seem to be out of centre. When playing a game they both push the player to the right and no matter how hard I pull the joysticks to the left nothing changes or it will only stop the motion. Is there a trim adjustment somewhere that Im missing?
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No but there are leaf switches inside you can bend slightly so that they are not mistakenly in the closed position when the stick is centred.
These are incredibly reliable sticks, though. Are you sure there isn't something wrong with your joystick port? Have you tried different sticks in the port, or the Wico sticks in another machine?
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Ya, thats my concern that the port is faulty as they both exhibit the same behavior.
I wonder if its repairable.
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So Ive got two Wico joysticks and I just got my A4000 up and running again. Both joysticks seem to be out of centre. When playing a game they both push the player to the right and no matter how hard I pull the joysticks to the left nothing changes or it will only stop the motion. Is there a trim adjustment somewhere that Im missing?
Ya, thats my concern that the port is faulty as they both exhibit the same behavior.
I wonder if its repairable.
I think i/o for these ports is controlled by a cheap, replaceable chip. So, yes I think. On Commodore's 8 bit machines this was the 6522 chip...not sure what the Amiga uses...maybe the same? I hope it doesn't use the Paula!
See thread:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=14136
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The mouse works fine in port 1 so tonight Im going to try a joystick in that port on a 2 player game I know uses both ports to see what happens.
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I don't know if that will tell you anything. The mouse probably uses totally different pins on the port.
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I think you've got a CIA chip issue. Try the joysticks on another system (even an old Atari or C64, anything with the same connector), or try a known-good joystick on the same system. But cross your fingers, maybe it's just the joysticks and a good cleaning and adjustment of their innards will do ya!
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Im very sure the Wico's are fine as they have been kept in a storage location in my desk and they were working the last time I used them a couple years ago.
Is the CIA chip something that can be replaced or reseated?
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Pretty sure they are SMD on most A4K motherboards. A few people have had them replaced and had sockets added in the past. You'll have to check your particular board. On some models of A2K there's an inline fuse as I recall that can sometimes act up, not sure if this exists on the 4000's, as well, or not?
Also do the obvious - check for battery damage to any traces, bent pins inside the connector, loose solder joint at the connector, etc.
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Battery was replaced a few years ago and there is no leakage or damage from the old one.
I guess one thing I can do when I get home is see if the problem happens if I have nothing connected to the port2, it should do nothing if I have it disconnected?
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As noted above, the mouse and joystick ports are different, and without a custom driver cannot be used interchangeably; you can however use a multimeter to check both the joystick or the port. Schematics are available online.
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So Ive got two Wico joysticks and I just got my A4000 up and running again. Both joysticks seem to be out of centre. When playing a game they both push the player to the right and no matter how hard I pull the joysticks to the left nothing changes or it will only stop the motion. Is there a trim adjustment somewhere that Im missing?
Is it possible a keyboard key is stuck that correlates to that joyport? just a shot in the dark but load up a game and disconnect the keyboard and see if you can go in all the directions.
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Keyboard unplug has made no difference. I'm going to strip things down again and see if the ribbon cables going to the two ports are maybe loose or not seated correctly.
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Well, after stripping down the Amiga to just the basics again looks like something is amiss with the Joysick/mouse ports as it still acts strange with both ports doing the same thing with both Wico joysticks. Im also getting strange cutting out of the video out to the monitor as it seems the Indivision is not seating properly but after removing and reseating the problem is still there.
Frustrating as I know I dont want to spend loads of money to fix this.
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Did you take the Indvision out when you stripped the Amiga "down to the basics"?
You should see if you can replace/swap the CIA chips - that's an easy fix and cheap. It might be the problem. Unfortunately, you have the complication that the CIAs on the A4000 are probably soldered onto the motherboard, not socketed:
http://wiki.abime.net/hardware/cia_chips
http://www.bboah.com/index.php?action=artikel&cat=51&id=2181&artlang=en
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_custom_chips#CIA
I can't determine for sure if the CIA controls the directions of the joystick, or only the button - the information on the internet is conflicting and vague.
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I did remove the Indivision after I noticed that the video was intermittent. Put it back in and problem is still there after I snap the mediator board back in so I'm thinking that applying pressure to the board is causing issues.
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I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it really sounds as if you have a problem with a chip or two. The problem is, that just about every chip on this motherboard, with the exception of the Kickstart ROMs, are surface mount chips. That does not make changing the chips impossible, just harder. You need more than a soldering iron, in other words.
One point - when you do get this fixed, never, and I mean never, plug a joystick in with the computer powered up again!
I wish you luck.....
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How does one unplug the mouse and plug the joystic into port 1 for a two player game then? Ive always been under the impression that the amiga was not bothered by "hot swapping the mouse/joysticks?
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There are no protections on those circuits at all. You "hot swap" at your won risk.
You "may" get away with it, if you're very careful to make sure none of the switches are closed. I think the fire button is the most dangerous. Also make sure the plug is connected evenly (all nine contacts made together).
Most game will boot themselves, so you don't need the mouse to start them. Right?
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Try and get one of these: Roboshift
http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=819
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Most game will boot themselves, so you don't need the mouse to start them. Right?
not if your using games installed on the hard drive.
@ddniUK thats an option. Wonder if they are available still?
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Yes. A few places often have them. Amigakit, Vesalia etc.
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Try and get one of these: Roboshift
http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=819
I forgot about these things. There were several makes on the market. These days I guess you'd have hit ebay
None of the stores listed still carry these devices. He is ten years behind the times. ebay, on the other hand has them from time to time. They don't have any right now however......
EDIT: well shut my mouth. I just found this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Roboshift-Commodore-Amiga-9-pin-auto-mouse-joystick-switching-unit-/171630665030?pt=UK_VintageComputing_RL&hash=item27f5fc1d46
Amigakit sort of has one listed - but it is NOT in stock. Availability is TBA
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Hi,
I'm not sure the problem is a CIA. I'm looking at the schematics (http://www.amigawiki.org/dnl/schematics/A4000_Rb.pdf), and the directional signals from both ports are handled by a shift register (U975), which is read by Lisa. Only the fire button/left mouse is handled by a CIA.
Has the clock battery been replaced or removed? (Edit: Yup, I see the earlier post now.) U975 is right in that area, so it could be damaged by a leaking battery.
I'd take a look around U975 for dirt/corrosion to the chip or the PCB traces. There's a column of pull up resistors between the clock battery and the option header. R984 and R988 pull up the right line from the joystick, so if either of those is open or flakey, the shift register would see a spurious joystick-right indication. IIRC, some of the pull-ups are on the underside of the motherboard, so it would be good to check both sides.
For reference, here's a picture of the motherboard. The pull-ups are immediately above the clock battery. Just to the right, there's a stack of three horizontally oriented 16 pin chips. U975 is the top most.
http://amiga.resource.cx/photos/a4000,6
Robert
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I guess one thing I can do when I get home is see if the problem happens if I have nothing connected to the port2, it should do nothing if I have it disconnected?
Hi,
Did you try this test? If it's a problem inside the Amiga, the symptom should appear regardless of whether a joystick is plugged in. If the spurious movement stops when the joystick is disconnected, I'd look at the joystick as the culprit.
I saw in an earlier post that you also observed graphics glitches. It would be good to check voltage on the 5V power rail. The joystick grounds various lines on the connector to register movement. When the joystick is released, the lines are pulled up to 5v by the Amiga. If the supply rail is flakey, the line might get pulled to an intermediate value that could be interpreted as joystick movement. A flakey supply could trigger other weirdness, such as graphic glitches.
Has the motherboard ever been recapped?
Robert
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Besides hot-swapping joysticks - another way to fry the electronics controlling the joystick port is to touch the joystick connector on the Amiga (even the metal "wall" of the DB9 port) while having a static charge built up in your body.
Any zapping that occurs between your finger and the port can harm the electronics connected to that port.
This could easily happen when you hot-swap things on a joystick port.
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Hi, thanks for the advice.
No, when I removed either of the two joysticks the problem is not there. The motherboard has never been recapped but visually it looks clean.
Neither the mouse or the joysticks have any metal parts on or around the plug ends. I don't see how any static can build up in the plastic ends.
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Hi, thanks for the advice.
No, when I removed either of the two joysticks the problem is not there. The motherboard has never been recapped but visually it looks clean.
Thanks for that info. Did the graphic glitches persist with the joystick disconnected?
With the joystick plugged in, you could try manipulating the cable (particularly around the strain relief where it enters the stick) to see if there might be a broken/marginal wire within the cable. Kind of a long shot since the issue affects both joystick.
In my experience, bad joystick cables cause the stick to stop registering input rather than register spurious input. To register spurious input, the broken wire would need to short to ground. The cable on my Wico is shielded, but the shielding isn't grounded.
I would check voltages if you can. From the joystick port's perspective, the only difference I see between no stick and a stick connected with no input is that the signal lines (directional + fire) in the cable get pulled up to 5v. The cable will impose a small additional capacitance on these lines, perhaps enough to register an intermediate value if the power supply is flakey.
The joystick port supplies 5v on pin 7. This normally isn't used on a joystick, and in fact my Wico has no contact in that position. (If you look into the joystick connector with the row of 4 pins on the bottom, pin 7 is second from the right). Shorting that to ground through a bad cable could pull down the 5v rail and cause flakey behavior. Another long shot, but worth looking at your joystick cable to see if there is a contact there.
Robert
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Graphic glitches are there with or without them plugged in. I'm sure the two are unrelated. These Amiga motherboards ar old and I'm sure that all my pulling things out and messing around is not helping.
On a side note, the power supply is a newer Enermax 400watt ATX that I re-wired to work with the A4000 so I'm highly doubting that I have issues with the 5v supply.
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On a side note, the power supply is a newer Enermax 400watt ATX that I re-wired to work with the A4000 so I'm highly doubting that I have issues with the 5v supply.
Hi,
The 5v supply from the PSU is probably good, but if the electrolytic capacitors on the motherboard are dry or failing, the 5v supply traces on the motherboard may be noisy or show low voltage. If you have a multimeter, I'd check the voltage on either side of the R984 or R988 pull up resistors. I can post further details if you want to continue troubleshooting this.
A leaking electrolytic doesn't always give a clear (externally visible) indication. I recapped one of my PSUs last weekend and found several leaky electrolytics where the residue was contained to the area immediately below the cap. I didn't realize those were leaky until I removed the capacitor.
Another experiment you could try to test the hypothesis that the peripheral wiring is related to the spurious signal is to look for evidence on the mouse port with the mouse plugged in. The same directional signal lines are used for a mouse or a joystick, but they're interpreted differently for the two cases. With a mouse, a spurious right signal would cause the mouse position counter to count up and down by one notch. To check this, set the mouse speed to the max, then look for a left/right jitter in the position of the pointer. The symptom would appear with 50% probability* for a given mouse position on your desk, so you should repeat the experiment (move mouse, look for jitter) a few times.
*The mouse signals motion by generating a square wave on the joystick directional pins. Half the time, the mouse pulls the pin to ground. The other half, the mouse lets the amiga pull the pin to 5v. The symptom would only occur during this second half.
Robert
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My Wico Command Control that I have had for years has also had a pain of a problem for years that I have been meaning to do something about but never got around to it. I am giving it another look now.
The Fire buttons (on the stick and the base) just stop working sometimes. In the past I have turned off the computer (originally used it with a C64), unplugged the joystick and plugged it back in, turned the computer back on and then it worked again. I opened it up way back then and never found anything obviously wrong. The feather switches are in pretty good shape with only minor wear. Since they both fail at the same time, I am inclined to believe it is something with the 9 pin connector and nothing to do with switches.
Then again, this model also has a two position slide switch to activate one Fire button or both. I suppose this switch, if not working correctly, could render both Fire buttons non-functional. It too "appears" to be in good shape, though.
I could not find any other discussions about this specific problem so I take that to mean it is not a common problem.
I also have a Competition Pro joystick that works fine in the same computer but the Wico C.C. with the Fire button on the stick has always been my favorite.
I was hoping I could find replacement cables but the only thing I keep finding are cable extensions and I know just any cable will not be a good match for the enclosure. Finding a cheap, used joystick in good shape is not going well either. I am surprised to see how much people are charging for these things all beat up.
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The Fire buttons (on the stick and the base) just stop working sometimes. In the past I have turned off the computer (originally used it with a C64), unplugged the joystick and plugged it back in, turned the computer back on and then it worked again. I opened it up way back then and never found anything obviously wrong. The feather switches are in pretty good shape with only minor wear. Since they both fail at the same time, I am inclined to believe it is something with the 9 pin connector and nothing to do with switches.
This is good troubleshooting procedure here, but what I would do is test the controller with another computer. And test another controller with that computer. That should narrow it down to exactly if it's a problem with the controller, or with the computer. Good luck! :)
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Sorry, I should have mentioned that the problem exists across multiple computers. It is something about the joystick alright.
This is good troubleshooting procedure here, but what I would do is test the controller with another computer. And test another controller with that computer. That should narrow it down to exactly if it's a problem with the controller, or with the computer. Good luck! :)
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So Ive got two Wico joysticks and I just got my A4000 up and running again. Both joysticks seem to be out of centre. When playing a game they both push the player to the right and no matter how hard I pull the joysticks to the left nothing changes or it will only stop the motion. Is there a trim adjustment somewhere that Im missing?
Does it move faster to the right when you push right? If so it's 99% not the joystick but computer.
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Sounds like it could be the switch. Spray some contact cleaner in there and wiggle the switch several times to clean the crud off of the contacts. Might work better from inside the open joystick. You could also spray some contact cleaner into the tiny holes at the end of the joystick cable on the DB-9 connector. You could also open the joystick and use a q-tip swab with some alcohol to clean the leaf switches for the fire button.
If it's not that, then test the continuity from the switch output to the pin socket on the end of the joystick's DB9 connector which delivers the fire button signal to the computer. If it cuts in and out as you wiggle the cable, there could be a broken wire in there and you'll have to replace the joystick cable.
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There are two different Fire buttons on the joystick. They both fail at the same time so I do not believe the switches/contacts are to blame. I did use contact cleaner on the 9 pin connector, though. It did not help.
I will try the continuity test.
Sounds like it could be the switch. Spray some contact cleaner in there and wiggle the switch several times to clean the crud off of the contacts. Might work better from inside the open joystick. You could also spray some contact cleaner into the tiny holes at the end of the joystick cable on the DB-9 connector. You could also open the joystick and use a q-tip swab with some alcohol to clean the leaf switches for the fire button.
If it's not that, then test the continuity from the switch output to the pin socket on the end of the joystick's DB9 connector which delivers the fire button signal to the computer. If it cuts in and out as you wiggle the cable, there could be a broken wire in there and you'll have to replace the joystick cable.
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There are two different Fire buttons on the joystick. They both fail at the same time so I do not believe the switches/contacts are to blame. I did use contact cleaner on the 9 pin connector, though. It did not help.
I will try the continuity test.
When you say they both fail at the same time, I'm not quite sure I understand - on all my Wico joystick the switch enables EITHER the stick firebutton OR the firebutton on the base. But not both at the same time. So how do you know they've both failed simultaneously? Do you mean when one fails you flip the switch and the other still doesn't work?
If so, then yes it sounds like a faulty cable.
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I tested them both by sliding the switch. Typically, I use the fire button on the stick. When it stops working, I try the base fire button. When one stops working, so does the other. But my memory on how the switch works might be a little fuzzy. My recollection was that it was either the stick button or, by sliding the switch, you get BOTH. I will have to double-check that.
When you say they both fail at the same time, I'm not quite sure I understand - on all my Wico joystick the switch enables EITHER the stick firebutton OR the firebutton on the base. But not both at the same time. So how do you know they've both failed simultaneously? Do you mean when one fails you flip the switch and the other still doesn't work?
If so, then yes it sounds like a faulty cable.
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Continuity was good...and I moved the cable while testing. I went ahead and used a small amount of rubbing alcohol on the contacts as I have heard conflicting reports on using anything stronger. Some have said to not even use fluid but rather a business card moved around with slight pressure applied.
I was right about the slide switch...when in the #1 spot, only the top Fire button works, when in #2 they both work.
Plugged it back in and it is working again....for the moment. :D
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Well, that did not last long. Typical of what I have seen in the past. This is really a hard one to pin down. I wonder if perhaps the contact point on PIN 6 is moving internally when pushed in and would therefore not be noticeable when testing continuity.
I have a plan. I will dig up another Wico joystick I have buried somewhere. "The Boss" it was called. I didn't like that one very much and it could also have a button problem. Since they're from the same company, the internal connection points are probably similar/identical. Would be ever better if they had the same color coding. I will check it out and try swapping the entire cable.
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I honestly wouldn't worry about the alcohol thing - I've used it for years. It's absolutely fine for electronic contacts, especially with something as tough as a WICO joystick.
Wico joysticks are extremely robust, so there could only be a few points where the problem occurs:
1. the leaf switches inside the stick base (they get dirty or bent so they don't make contact). Solution: clean 'em or bend 'em back.
2. the button selection switch. Clean it, replace it, or bypass it entirely.
3. The cable. Broken wire. Replace the whole cable.
4. The 9-hole connector at the end. After a while some of the copper sleeves in the holes open up a little too wide and might not make contact with the male DB9 pins on the Commodore computer. Solution - either replace the whole cable or snip off the original DB-9 female connector and attach a fresh one. If you've got nothing to lose then you might want to squeeze the outside of the plastic DB-9 female connector hard with a pair of pliers. This might bend some of the stretched sleeves into an oval shape so they make contact with the pins in the male connector.
If I were you, yes, I would replace the cable with the one from the WICO boss. Really, you can bypass the switch entirely and have both buttons work at the same time. I don't know why they even included a switch. The switch is SUPPOSED to activate either the top or the base button (it evens says this by the switch on most of mine), but I have a few that are wired weirdly/wrongly like yours is.
But how many systems have you tested this Wico joystick on? One, two? And it doesn't work on all of them?
I had a VIC-20 that I had sporadic joystick response with. I had a hard time figuring out why sometimes joysticks wouldn't work in certain directions. I eliminated the joystick as the problem, as the issue came up with many different brands of controller attached to the VIC-20. The VIC's joystick port looked fine, so I tried replacing the input/output chips (CIA) on the motherboard. That didn't help. I re-flowed the solder where the joystick socket attached to the motherboard. That didn't help.
I then finally examined the joystick connector in the VIC-20 with a magnifying glass and saw that some of the brass pins on the inboard side of the socket, where they bend 90 degrees toward the motherboard, had severed completely. Most of the time the broken ends came to rest touching each other and the joystick worked. The breaks were almost invisible when this happened. But sometimes the stress of connecting or whatever caused the breaks to open up. I just bypassed the breaks with some wire and everything worked again.
The above solutions are dependent on the fact you're sure it's the joystick that's the problem, and not the socket on the computer, or the input/output chip inside the computer. Obviously if other joysticks work fine on this machine, then it's the Wico that's the problem.
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Thanks for your help!
I honestly wouldn't worry about the alcohol thing - I've used it for years. It's absolutely fine for electronic contacts, especially with something as tough as a WICO joystick.
I wasn't concerned about alcohol, but something stronger. As I indicated, I already went in there with rubbing alcohol and even though I did not expect any change, I did it anyway.
2. the button selection switch. Clean it, replace it, or bypass it entirely.
I was considering this also if the cable swap does not work out.
If I were you, yes, I would replace the cable with the one from the WICO boss.
This sounds like the best option so far.
But how many systems have you tested this Wico joystick on? One, two? And it doesn't work on all of them?
Yes, problem follows the joystick, computer does not matter.