WinUAE exposing how crappy Windows is

[AmigaHeretic]

Windows is more complex than AmigaOS because it allows you to do more. If you're happy with AmigaOS for everything then use that.

You are responding to me, but it feels like you are talking to yourself.  

I never said that I don't like Windows.  I never said I even use Amiga OS anymore.

I probably use Windows 98% of the time.  The other 2% is AROS.

I clearly stated twice that I don't have a better solution to the registry than MS does.


Failing that the registry does suck.  You want to argue about ENV: well that was the whole point of the original poster.  If I have program I just delete the folder.  Everything is gone.  It's not that easy on Windows.  If I want to delete all the "settings" I go into ENV: and delete a "single" file named "ThisProgsSettings".  On Windows this isn't even possible for most programs.  

Amiga less clutter, Windows more clutter.  There is little doubt about that.  


As far a real life performance with a crap filled registry?  It is slower.  Do a Google search.  There is an entire industry around speeding up, cleaning up, repairing the registry.   If it so fast to search no matter the clutter and conditions than why in the real world does it slow down your machine so much?

[Trev]

If I have program I just delete the folder. Everything is gone.

Are you sure about that? The progam didn't install a library, overwrite SetPatch, modify S:Startup-Sequence, or any of the other things Amiga software tends to do? There is no standard "uninstall" process on the Amiga.

On Windows this isn't even possible for most programs.

That is not the fault of the registry.

There is an entire industry around speeding up, cleaning up, repairing the registry.

I think you've misunderstood the market. It's not fixing a problem, it's selling an unnecessary product to unsuspecting, uneducated, and paranoid users. Belief in a thing by a majority of people does not necessarily make a thing true.

[AmigaHeretic]

That is not the fault of the registry.

No it's the fault of Microsoft.  Glad they didn't skip using folders on the HD.  Just throw all the files in the root of C:  users shouldn't be sorting stuff out anyway.

I think you've misunderstood the market. It's not fixing a problem, it's selling an unnecessary product to unsuspecting, uneducated, and paranoid users. Belief in a thing by a majority of people does not necessarily make a thing true.

:laughing:  Yeah, none of them do anything.  That's why Microsoft themselves even made "Microsoft RegClean".

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/145758
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/299958



There are lots of legitimate programs that do increase speed, fix issues, and remove random crap that causes errors and problems.

Most of those require more knowledge than the average user has and you need to know what you are doing and looking for.

I agree there are many "Click Fix" types don't do anything.
Still if the problem didn't exist people wouldn't be looking for solutions in the first place.

[Trev]

No it's the fault of Microsoft. Glad they didn't skip using folders on the HD. Just throw all the files in the root of C: users shouldn't be sorting stuff out anyway.

How do you figure? Microsoft provides a standard setup API and guidelines for using the registry correctly. It's up to software developers and publishers to use and follow them.

Yeah, none of them do anything. That's why Microsoft themselves even made "Microsoft RegClean".

You missed a key quote from Microsoft: "The RegClean utility is no longer supported and has been removed from all Microsoft download sites." RegClean was designed to detect and remove references to COM components that were no longer installed on the local system. It had the nasty side effect of removing references used by DCOM, which supports components installed on remote systems. This and other weirdness led to its removal.

Microsoft isn't a single cohesive entity, and the various units within Microsoft are often out of sync. They're no different than any other large organization in that respect. When they make mistakes, they deserve just as much ridicule as everyone else; however, you can't blame the system team for problems caused by the application teams.

Still if the problem didn't exist people wouldn't be looking for solutions in the first place.

The solution is to force software publishers to adhere to standards by not buying their products until they do, i.e. treat the cause, not the symptom. (And there's crap software on every platform, not just Windows.)

[AmigaHeretic]

You missed a key quote from Microsoft: "The RegClean utility is no longer supported and has been removed from all Microsoft download sites." RegClean was designed to detect and remove references to COM components that were no longer installed on the local system. It had the nasty side effect of removing references used by DCOM, which supports components installed on remote systems. This and other weirdness led to its removal.

Microsoft isn't a single cohesive entity, and the various units within Microsoft are often out of sync. They're no different than any other large organization in that respect. When they make mistakes, they deserve just as much ridicule as everyone else; however, you can't blame the system team for problems caused by the application teams.

That really sums up my thoughts nicely.  Microsoft themselves can't even make a regtool that doesn't break something because the registry is such a huge mess.

[the_leander]

That really sums up my thoughts nicely.  Microsoft themselves can't even make a regtool that doesn't break something because the registry is such a huge mess.

Right because systems never change or add anything new over time.

What might have worked once on older versions of the OS no longer does as it interferes with newer functionality in later OS's. So, do Microsoft spend millions in building a brand new tool with the risk of getting into yet another lawsuit due to its monopoly position? Or do they simply say "sod it" and retire the tool?

Answers on the back of a postcard to the usual address.

And the reason you don't have a better solution to using a database to provide the functionality that the registry offers is because there isn't one.

Sure, Microsoft could make it stricter so as to weed out the app developers who have taken a quick and dirty approach to dealing with it, or change it to be more human friendly. But to put it bluntly, users cause enough damage to their systems as it is, without inviting them to muck around with core bits of the OS.

Regarding "clutter". Out of the box Windows, or in fact any of the big three OS's currently in the desktop market offer more functionality than AmigaOS could offer if you grabbed every third party hack/patch and or replacement piece off of aminet.

And patched up to the gills, AmigaOS isn't exactly pretty to deal with either.

[stefcep2]

Regarding "clutter". Out of the box Windows, or in fact any of the big three OS's currently in the desktop market offer more functionality than AmigaOS could offer if you grabbed every third party hack/patch and or replacement piece off of aminet.

what functionality do Win 7, OS X and Ubuntu have out of the box that a patched Amiga OS don't?  OS functionality, not apps.

And patched up to the gills, AmigaOS isn't exactly pretty to deal with either.

Amikit is the most un-Amiga like patched environment that i have ever used.  As alien as it looks and feels to me as a long time Amiga 3.x user, i can find me way around the core OS files more intuitively than any linux distro or Windows version i have used.

[Trev]

That really sums up my thoughts nicely. Microsoft themselves can't even make a regtool that doesn't break something because the registry is such a huge mess.

No. DCOM aside, the Microsoft Office developers couldn't create a general purpose tool that didn't accidentally delete foreign keys and values because the owners of those entities couldn't be bothered to follow guidelines.

If I accidentally shred a vital document because it was in the wrong folder, it's not the fault of the file cabinet maker.

[the_leander]

what functionality do Win 7, OS X and Ubuntu have out of the box that a patched Amiga OS don't?  OS functionality, not apps.

I'll start the ball rolling with this one, as I'm sure others will be able to provide more instances:

True, segregated multi-user support.
Firewalled TCP/IP stack that is built deep into the system.
Full memory protection. OS4 redresses this somewhat, but it's not nearly as effective as in the others.
Fully functional network file sharing.
A HAL worth a damn.
SMP

As for the restriction on apps. Many users might well argue that things such as iTunes or WMP represent core functionality within the OS.

 i can find me way around the core OS files more intuitively than any linux distro or Windows version i have used.

Apparently you didn't get what I was aiming at.

I wrote:

patched up to the gills, AmigaOS isn't exactly pretty to deal with either

You put in 20, 30 plus patches into a 3.x system with all the trimmings and suddenly one of your favourite apps stops working.

Good luck trawling through it all to find out which one of those patches (or if you're especially lucky, combination thereof) is the culprit.

Been there, done that. Wasn't fun.

[stefcep2]

I'll start the ball rolling with this one, as I'm sure others will be able to provide more instances:

True, segregated multi-user support.

I don't care, I'm the only user.

Firewalled TCP/IP stack that is built deep into the system.

Windows by default firewalls only one of incoming or outgoing traffic, forget which.  You'd be mad not to use a third party firewall AND anti-malware suite.  Even without a firewalled TCP stack your risk of malware IN REALITY is less with Amiga than Windows.  Yes its security by obscurity, but it works.  In THEORY, yes Linux and OS X are more secure by design, but in REALITY, if there was enough motivation malware could be as damaging on Linux and OS X.  So a significant part of Linux and OS X security is obscurity as well.  There is no 100% secure OS

Full memory protection. OS4 redresses this somewhat, but it's not nearly as effective as in the others.

There's a whole thread on MP, and its nowhere near a big deal for most users most of the time.  Yes a system with MP is better than one without, but in REALITY, the lack of it hasn't made Amiga a perpetually crashing mess.  As I've said earlier look at all the software-apps, utilities, drivers written, and then all the art, music, video, documents on Aminet as evidence as to how well this system without MP works in practice-you couldn't do this if software kept bringing the OS down and people kept losing their files!

Fully functional network file sharing.

Yes

A HAL worth a damn.

Yes, but a lot of nice third-party Amiga hardware seemed to work fine anyway. Anyway, whats CGX/p96 and AHI?

SMP

yes.

As for the restriction on apps. Many users might well argue that things such as iTunes or WMP represent core functionality within the OS.

Equivalent media player software is available as open-source alternatives, and if you could get AmigaOS to run on fast enough hardware you'd have similar functionality.  Its not the OS stopping someone porting a general media player, the codecs are all out there.  Having  said that iTunes runs best on Mac. Linux alternatives have issues with some iPods anyway.  But I was interested in core OS functionality, not apps.  Everyone knows Amiga has far less developers willing to write software for it.

Apparently you didn't get what I was aiming at.

I wrote:



You put in 20, 30 plus patches into a 3.x system with all the trimmings

Apparently you didn't get what *I* was aiming at.  Amikit is good example of exactly that and as far removed from a 3.x system as you can easily get. And guess what?  Most apps that i have tried work as well as they do on a vanilla 3.1, and i can *still* work my around it to troubleshoot.

and suddenly one of your favourite apps stops working.
Good luck trawling through it all to find out which one of those patches (or if you're especially lucky, combination thereof) is the culprit.

Even worse is the last three kernel updates I've done with Ubuntu through the repo's and I end up at the grub prompt!!  

What you say is possible with any OS, and when it usually happens after the last patch/addition you made.  The point is when it happens on Amiga, its usually something that starts from user-startup, WBstartup, changes a shared Lib, or executes something in C.  I have more hope in tracking it down than I do Win 7, or Ubuntu.

Been there, done that. Wasn't fun.

Quite.

[the_leander]

I don't care, I'm the only user.

You absolute hypocrite. All the times you had a pop at other people of dismissing your points because they said "I don't use it".

It's a level of security that AmigaOS lacks.

There is no 100% secure OS

That wasn't the question, you asked what these OS's offered out of the box, I told you. That's all there is to it. That some offer better variations than others is outside of the question you asked.

Yes a system with MP is better than one without

End of.

Yes, but a lot of nice third-party Amiga hardware seemed to work fine anyway.

Good luck installing your OS4.x for A1 on a Sam.

In contrast I can and have installed Linux from the same disk on everything from a single P2 system to a coreduo.

That is the power of a HAL.

Equivalent media player software is available as open-source alternatives.

Rhythmbox, Elisa etc.

Both of which are in of themselves apps, but sit on frameworks that are built into the OS itself and comes out of the box. It isn't that AOS just lacks the apps, it's that it lacks the frameworks upon which these apps rely on to operate.

I imagine that parts of WMP's framework can be accessed in a similar fashion by third party apps. I wouldn't be surprised if the library functions within iTunes on OSX are in part tied to the OS's search engine that again could be tapped by other software...

The point is when it happens on Amiga, its usually something that starts from user-startup, WBstartup, changes a shared Lib, or executes something in C. I have more hope in tracking it down than I do Win 7, or Ubuntu.

Heh, you still don't get it (colour me shocked). That you personally are very proficient with AOS but not so much with the other two is utterly irrelevant to the point I was making - which is that once loaded up with everything, AOS can be and is a pita to sort out when it's patched to the hilt.

[stefcep2]

You absolute hypocrite. All the times you had a pop at other people of dismissing your points because they said "I don't use it".

whats good for he goose...

It's a level of security that AmigaOS lacks.

And if the malware to take advantage of is so uncommon and unlikely, what then?

Good luck installing your OS4.x for A1 on a Sam.

In contrast I can and have installed Linux from the same disk on everything from a single P2 system to a coreduo.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA.  go herehttp://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=327.  Go there tomorrow,  Go there 6 months from now,  try 6 months ago.  SAME STORY, whatever the time.  Thousands upon thousands of users with hardware that DOESN'T WORK, some not at all, some not without alot of fartsing about. And this with THE MOST popular Linux distro in history.

That is the power of a HAL.

Hmmmm....

Rhythmbox, Elisa etc.

Both of which are in of themselves apps, but sit on frameworks that are built into the OS itself and comes out of the box. It isn't that AOS just lacks the apps, it's that it lacks the frameworks upon which these apps rely on to operate.

Linux will not play the most common audio (mp3) and video (mpeg 2/ dvd) out of the box. I can't even get Totem to play a fricken' audio CD, and no-one can tell me why. Amiga been doing for 20 years, 10 out of the box. But thats besides the point.  Amiga can play mp3, and mpeg2, what "framework" are you trying to muddy the waters with?  

I imagine that parts of WMP's framework can be accessed in a similar fashion by third party apps.

Right: VLC relies on WMPS "framework" to work.  Wait a minute, VLC works in Linux and there is no WMP there...WTF are you on about?  Your app takes the digital file, decodes with the right codec, and pumps the video and audio to Direct X or X-server +pulse/whatever or graphics.library/cgx/p96 plus AHI on Amiga.  Playback speed on Amiga is ultimately limited by hardware not OS.

I wouldn't be surprised if the library functions within iTunes on OSX are in part tied to the OS's search engine that again could be tapped by other software...

Yeah its all about search engines.  iTunes talks to certain iPods using a form of encryption/coding.  Don't remember the exact term, but its not an OS thing, its simply because iTunes the app, and iPod the hardware speak the same language, and Apple keeps that secret.

Heh, you still don't get it (colour me shocked). That you personally are very proficient with AOS but not so much with the other two is utterly irrelevant to the point I was making - which is that once loaded up with everything, AOS can be and is a pita to sort out when it's patched to the hilt.

Proficiency has very little to do with it.

[the_leander]

whats good for the goose...

You really are pathetic.

 And if the malware to take advantage of is so uncommon and unlikely, what then?

Again, outside of the scope of the question being asked.

To recap since you seem determined to cause an argument:

You said:

what functionality do Win 7, OS X and Ubuntu have out of the box that a patched Amiga OS don't? OS functionality, not apps.

And for the record, there is more to Linux than Ubuntu, and even within Ubuntu there are better choices for an easy out of the box experience than the primary offerings.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA.  go herehttp://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=327.  Go there tomorrow,  Go there 6 months from now,  try 6 months ago.  SAME STORY, whatever the time.  Thousands upon thousands of users with hardware that DOESN'T WORK, some not at all, some not without alot of fartsing about. And this with THE MOST popular Linux distro in history.

Because I certainly couldn't find in this site any number of complaints about hardare issues on an Amiga...

And whilst some people will have issues with a given distro on specific hardware, in practice many others will not. Also, where did I mention Ubuntu?
Oh that's right, I didn't.

Linux will not play the most common audio (mp3) and video (mpeg 2/ dvd) out of the box.

It did here. No downloading, just hit play and *bam* it played. Thats for mp3s, dvd, avi, mov, wmv and flv.

I can't even get Totem to play a fricken' audio CD, and no-one can tell me why.

Because Totem is a pile of shite and everyone (apart from you, apparently) knows it. Mplayer, Rhythmbox. Enjoy.

 But thats besides the point.  Amiga can play mp3, and mpeg2, what "framework" are you trying to muddy the waters with?  

So can Linux, that your particular choice and lack of competence within that choice fails you is irrelevant.

The framework I pointed to with Rhythmbox and Elisa is gstreamer, which coincidentally is what Totem uses as well.
 

Right: VLC relies on WMPS "framework" to work.

Nope. Way to fail again.

Sidenote: VLC can be made to use OS codecs. It however is OS agnostic and so does not access many OS specific features outside of video and sound.

Strawman coming in 3...2...1...

 Wait a minute, VLS works in Linux and there is no WMP there...WTF are you on about?

Oh look, you've picked out a multi platform application that runs pretty much standalone from the rest of the system, duplicating many things available within its host systems in the desire to remain portable and easy to maintain, rather than an OS specific application that makes use of that OS's features.

A wonderful strawman. Well played!

Yeah its all about search engines.

Spotlight can be accessed by third party programs and it's results parsed however you want.

Proficiency has very little to do with it.

It has everything to do with it.

We're done.

[psxphill]

And if the malware to take advantage of is so uncommon and unlikely, what then?

What you're saying is that AmigaOS is better because it is really unpopular. Thats a time limited selling point.
 
Unless what you want to do is convince the world that AmigaOS is so much better, but then tell everyone they can't use it because then you'd all be easy targets for malware.

[stefcep2]

@the_leander

Your replies speak for themselves.   But once again.

1.  Theoretically lack of multi-user and MP make AmigaOS less secure.  In reality, it means SFA as a)the risk of malware  is negligible and b) Amiga runs software just fine without MP 3) You face far greater risks under Windows.  Obscurity in the real world works for Amiga, as it does for OS X and Linux.

2.  I referred to  Ubuntu as it is BY FAR the mostly widely used distro.  Totem is its default media player.  Ergo its the most widely used Linux media player out of the box.  Ditto lack of mp3 and DVD playback in Ubuntu.  Its what most Linux users would confront out of the box.  

3.  I referred to VLC precisely to negate your BS "WMP as an OS  framework used by third party media players without which you can't playback media files" argument.  I achieved my aim.  The rest is just waffle.

4.  Spotlight?  You claimed iTunes could be considered an integral part of the OS.  Now you're onto a search utility.  Amiga has them too, if you want.

5.  Competence has nothing to do with the fact that one OS has sensibly named folders and  file names, and another doesn't or requires you to execute and remember a gazillion shell commands just to do simple thing.  

BTW I'd forgotten "the I don't use it so it doesn't matter" argument.  That thread`must have cut you, real bad , man.  Peace.

[stefcep2]

What you're saying is that AmigaOS is better because it is really unpopular. Thats a time limited selling point.

Its an argument that recognises things as they are:its a hobbyist OS for which there is negligible malware risk.
 

Unless what you want to do is convince the world that AmigaOS is so much better, but then tell everyone they can't use it because then you'd all be easy targets for malware.

That sounds like Windows.   Really.  Its what MS does every Windows cycle.  Its only a matter of time before any Win version becomes just one massive patch. MS even tells us so.  We then wipe that one off the hard drive, and start again, hoping to get a few years of reasonably secure OS  use MP, Firewalls, AV software nothwistanding.  If Linux and OS X were as popular, they'd be in a similar state.