Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Gaming => Topic started by: rvo_nl on August 24, 2010, 08:57:01 PM
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Hello sirs! I have a funny subject that is bound to cause some controversy. Or at least thats what I hope, coz I cant get answers anywhere else.. Here we go:
Is it possible to run Quake 3 on an Classic Amiga running OS4.0 classic?
I mean, I tried.. but it crashed. and before I dive into OS4 (have barely touched it since I have this machine) I need to know whether it can be done at all.
What do I need for this to work? (Obviously Q3 + patch, as stated in the readme, but I've got those)
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The OS4 port of Quake 3 is incredibly buggy to begin with, so it's hard to tell if the crash you're getting is hardware or software related.
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Understood.. But what would I need at minimum to play Q3? I have just OS4.0 and the last update for it. Havent even installed AHI, MiniGL or whatever. In fact I dont even know if I have to. Isnt there a list of basic stuff every OS4 install should have? (Something like AmigaSys would be nice for OS4)
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AHI is built in, but make sure you configure it (SYS:Prefs/AHI). Don't know if MiniGL made it to the Classic release. Try running AmiUpdate - that should get your system into shape.
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AHI is built in, but make sure you configure it (SYS:Prefs/AHI). Don't know if MiniGL made it to the Classic release. Try running AmiUpdate - that should get your system into shape.
MiniGL works on Voodoo3/4 and I believe Cybervision/BVision. On OS4 Classic, yes.
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Even if you get it working (and I doubt it) it'll be slower than an snail I reckon...so why the bother? :)
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@Stevo,
Well personally I'm not a quake 3 fan, so I won't try it, even though I could :)
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Even if you get it working (and I doubt it) it'll be slower than an snail I reckon...so why the bother? :)
Because its pretty fun to do? :) Seriously, just making it run is what Im aiming for. Im not interested in playing the game.
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Hello sirs! I have a funny subject that is bound to cause some controversy. Or at least thats what I hope, coz I cant get answers anywhere else.. Here we go:
Is it possible to run Quake 3 on an Classic Amiga running OS4.0 classic?
I mean, I tried.. but it crashed. and before I dive into OS4 (have barely touched it since I have this machine) I need to know whether it can be done at all.
What do I need for this to work? (Obviously Q3 + patch, as stated in the readme, but I've got those)
I ran it on the slowest BlizzardPPC with Voodoo3 and it was very very slow even on post stamp size. I remember 2fps :-D Perhaps it's slightly faster with G-Rex on MorphOS but I wouldn't expect any miracle.
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Thanks Crumb. Thats what I wanted to know.. :)
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Hello rvo! You may be interested to know you can get this game running if you open the cfg file and set fullscreen to '0' instead of '1'. And, if you tweak the settings a little, it does around 5pfs! ;)
(http://www.vanooij.nl/FILES/q3.jpg)
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5 frames / sec. Rumbling...!
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5 frames / sec. Rumbling...!
anything over 2FPS is overkill. You may was well max out the resolution and details...
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Here you go
http://capehill.kapsi.fi/
This version of Quake 3 is not in os4depot and it is much more stable
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very interesting utri! but does it run on a classic?
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I can run Quake3 on my BlizzPPC/BVision under 4.1. I'm using the ioQuake3 port. I'd say it was generally better than 2fps, but far from playable when there is any action. Also, waiting for the game to load over my motherboard IDE was not great ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcuNR3yyIo4
Performance is rather better on CyberstormPPC. Darren Eveland posted a video of an earlier version of the driver (which suffered some texture corruption issues) and the same demo was noticably quicker.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GNtOM3ZLQM
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thanks, need to check that one out, too. how many ports are there? :) and where can I find them? its hard to find stuff for os4. it seems os4depot is not by far what aminet used to be for 68k, or am I wrong?
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I would say that most of the OS4 stuff goes into os4depot.
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Also, waiting for the game to load over my motherboard IDE was not great ;)
Perhaps it's time to hack 53c710 scsi driver to work on BlizzardPPC? Radoslaw Kujawa already added support for both scsi and g-rex and perhaps he could give you some hints, you can even check out BSD sources :-)
https://github.com/jsonn/src/tree/trunk/sys/arch/amiga
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Well, Ive tried out ioQuake3 tonight and with some further tweaking and lowered window size its just about playable. Ofcourse it didnt look very pretty at this point but at least my goal was reached.
Funny, I remember, when I got my first pc around 2000 Quake 3 was one of the games I first ran on it and I remember thinking my Amiga would never be able to play that, not its prequel. Ofcourse I was very wrong, that same Amiga now runs Quake 1, 2 and 3.
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"that same Amiga now runs Quake 1, 2 and 3. "
Yes but it only cost you 10x the price of a 10 year old pc to be able to do that.
:quickdraw:
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High speed memory access is needed but most importantly the PCI slot needs to be fairly fast if using Bvision/Cybervision this makes a massive difference not just in playing games but also workbench itself but unfortunately this is not available to most users.
Drivers may possibly need to improve as one user posted a difference in benchmark between morphOS & OS4.x but I am no programmer so maybe someone can explain the difference in benchmark figures.
Please do not start a red vs blue.
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"that same Amiga now runs Quake 1, 2 and 3. "
Yes but it only cost you 10x the price of a 10 year old pc to be able to do that.
:quickdraw:
if money was an issue I would not be in the amiga scene ;)
fact is I would have been able to do this already in 2000, if the port existed back then. not something I could ever have imagined.
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+1 SCSI driver.
This will become a important factor in years to come for classic users. The choice between FastATA & SCSI,I would pick SCSI.
I would be nice also if someone could look at the Blizzard flashrom,what can be added,what can be changed,can SCSI be improved via the flashrom,improved to support OS4.x directly,but its a matter of who has the knowledge to alter it if possible.
Blizzard PCI slot @ AGP speed still in progress and show benchmarks figures I have never seen before.
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Drivers may possibly need to improve as one user posted a difference in benchmark between morphOS & OS4.x but I am no programmer so maybe someone can explain the difference in benchmark figures.
You could test MorphOS 1.4.5 in your machine. It's no longer possible to register but since demo is limited to 2 hours you'll have enough time to test stuff. OWB 1.16 works on MorphOS PowerUp :-) If you need help I did a small guide (I tested it quite a lot with A3000/A4000 and not so much with A1200):
http://almogavar.blogspot.com.es/2011/06/instalacion-de-morphos-en-un-amiga.html
Then you could install a more or less recent MUI4 beta and an updated Ambient (more similar to 2.x ones). Change MUI menu delay to 0seconds too. IIRC there was also a default font that wasn't available and with default config it worked slower than it should.
Now that RoadShow is available you could also install RoadShow.
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It is a pity that there is no version of WarpOS, because under the OS4.1 already Wipeout 2097 running slower.
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Hello sirs! I have a funny subject that is bound to cause some controversy. Or at least thats what I hope, coz I cant get answers anywhere else.. Here we go:
Is it possible to run Quake 3 on an Classic Amiga running OS4.0 classic?
I mean, I tried.. but it crashed. and before I dive into OS4 (have barely touched it since I have this machine) I need to know whether it can be done at all.
What do I need for this to work? (Obviously Q3 + patch, as stated in the readme, but I've got those)
Dosbox AmigaOS 4 or MorphOS. Do you have gfx card and lots of FAST RAM?
Quake3 is something I would have above 160Mhz G2 class PPC.
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huh this thread's a year old, had it running a few days later :)
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huh this thread's a year old, had it running a few days later :)
240Mhz, gfx card, fast RAM, not too bad :-))))))
What is fastest solution, and what do you believe I could expect
when trying the same on SAM460ex with software Warp3D on Radeon4000 HD .... that is 1Ghz, 1Ghz RAM, 256MB VRAM but somewhat not as good as it should be (G3 class CPU, downclocked less CL time, only half of VRAM visible and no hardware 3D)
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not sure what your question is, but quake 3 on ppc/bvision is slow as hell. dont bother.
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I'm surprised that people are surprised that 15yo laggard hardware runs 14 yo games badly. It ain't magic.
But perhaps that's negative and they're just surprised the games run at all. Quake II was better gameplay IMO anyway. Any more than half a dozen people a side makes it madness.
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It is a pity that there is no version of WarpOS, because under the OS4.1 already Wipeout 2097 running slower.
have you tried grabbing powerpc.library (http://os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=library/misc/warposemu.lha)? it should support the 603e and 604e IIRC. that's how i've run WOS tools and games on my SAM and pegasos machines.
-- eliyahu
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There is a point where this gets silly.
Play Quake 2 on your legacy hardware, Quake 3 needs NG hardware.
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have you tried grabbing powerpc.library (http://os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=library/misc/warposemu.lha)? it should support the 603e and 604e IIRC. that's how i've run WOS tools and games on my SAM and pegasos machines.
-- eliyahu
You do not understand, I'd rather Q3 for OS3 WOS W3DPPC.
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but morpos runs warpos and warp3d games natively
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Perhaps it's time to hack 53c710 scsi driver to work on BlizzardPPC? Radoslaw Kujawa already added support for both scsi and g-rex and perhaps he could give you some hints, you can even check out BSD sources :-)
https://github.com/jsonn/src/tree/trunk/sys/arch/amiga
I was forced to upgrade to 53c710-1 "faster version" as SCSI needs to cope with faster bus. There's no doubt this game can be played on classic amiga,but I think its going to need the minimum 41.5Mhz PCI bus.
This game works fine on a PC with Permedia 2 and AGP slot,so a fast PCI slot should allow this game to work on classic.
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I was forced to upgrade to 53c710-1 "faster version" as SCSI needs to cope with faster bus. There's no doubt this game can be played on classic amiga,but I think its going to need the minimum 41.5Mhz PCI bus.
This game works fine on a PC with Permedia 2 and AGP slot,so a fast PCI slot should allow this game to work on classic.
It's not all about PCI speed. If the gfx card has enough memory to hold all the textures for a level then the game is not going to use the PCI bus nearly as much. A Voodoo 3 (16MB) or Voodoo4/5 (32MB) even with a slow PCI bus Mediator may outperform the Permedia 2 if it has to recopy textures across the PCI bus very often.
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It's not all about PCI speed. If the gfx card has enough memory to hold all the textures for a level then the game is not going to use the PCI bus nearly as much. A Voodoo 3 (16MB) or Voodoo4/5 (32MB) even with a slow PCI bus Mediator may outperform the Permedia 2 if it has to recopy textures across the PCI bus very often.
Not so sure of this.
What was talked about was "DMA driver" for Permedia 2 on classic amiga. Bvision has already shown it can operate at AGP speed but I think its missing a few AGP features.
Upload texture across 66Mhz+ PCI bus with DMA may show same performance as on PC.
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Upload texture across 66Mhz+ PCI bus with DMA may show same performance as on PC.
But which is faster, uploading a bunch of textures once at the beginning of the game or level at 10MB/s or constantly during the game at 120MB/s? Warp3D has auto texture management so it will constantly swap textures in and out of gfx memory as needed. A full bandwidth PCI bus may be usable when this is happening but with enough gfx memory it doesn't happen. Performance isn't always about bandwidth. How it's managed can be just as important.
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There is a video on youtube showing this game with permedia 2,whatever the limitation permedia 2 has it does not seem to affect performance.
Do a search Permedia 2 Quake 3 on youtube (on a PC).
From my point of view Bvision should be able to do this given it has a fast enough bus.
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There is a video on youtube showing this game with permedia 2,whatever the limitation permedia 2 has it does not seem to affect performance.
Do a search Permedia 2 Quake 3 on youtube (on a PC).
From my point of view Bvision should be able to do this given it has a fast enough bus.
Parmedia wasnt really a popular chip on PC gfx cards
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http://web.archive.org/web/19980422000229/http://www.3dlabs.com/news/p2anoce.html
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There is a video on youtube showing this game with permedia 2,whatever the limitation permedia 2 has it does not seem to affect performance.
Do a search Permedia 2 Quake 3 on youtube (on a PC).
From my point of view Bvision should be able to do this given it has a fast enough bus.
Peaches and creosote, I'm afraid. Most of the videos for old video cards are shown on Pentium-II/III class systems with AGP cards and vendor supplied OpenGL drivers. 3DLabs AGP Permedia cards were made for CAD and their 2D and 3D drivers were quite optimised.
So, an old 500 MHz P3 with AGP Permedia 2 won't struggle to run Quake 3 (with vertex lighting enabled) in the slightest.
Contrast this with your classic Amiga. Even if you can get the buses and CPU of your Amiga faster than the stock, you still have no L2 cache for your CPU, no DMA texture transfer between system RAM and VRAM, no interrupt driven double-buffered DMA for loading the command FIFO and many other cool things that I'm sure the 3DLabs supplied drivers make use of as standard.
On the Amiga, it's still CPU driven texture transfer and PIO. And it's still sitting below several layers of software abstraction (MiniGL, Warp3D). The entire set up is sub optimal.
I've tried to get DMA working but no luck. I have no idea if it's even possible with the Phase5 implementation of the hardware, for which I have no documentation at all.
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Which revision Blizzard card did you attempt DMA?
Revision 2 is probably the best card to attempt DMA,but both revisions have their Pros and Cons.
Permedia 2 documentation has increase to over 400 pages believed to contain hints & tips.
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I don't think L2 cache would make much of a difference. Fast ram access is the highest it has ever been on classic and is not far off sdram performance.
Bvision(s) here do have one advantage over PC card(s) that use Permedia 2, Sgram is clocking higher than "any" PC version.
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Has anyone tried submerging their A1200/BVision/BPPC in liguid nitrogen and over clocking it by a bazillion times?
I'd pay good money to watch that. lol
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I for one did not say anything about overclocking in this thread.
Blizzard cards have 83Mhz logic same for Bvision.
Where higher clock is required components are changed to leave it in a non overclock state ie CPU,SCSI & Sgram. All use faster versions.
This is pretty much the standard components that are changed here.
SCSI is the latest additional change and moves to last revision.
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I don't think L2 cache would make much of a difference. Fast ram access is the highest it has ever been on classic and is not far off sdram performance.
I wouldn't underestimate the improvements a functioning L2 cache would make. Memory speeds haven't increased as sharply in real terms as CPU speeds. My now 7-year old PC has then state-of-the-art DDR3 memory running right up to it's cycle timing limits (which are still better than a lot of RAM on sale today). The CPU still has 12MiB of L2 cache. Assuming memtest86 is telling the truth, the performance gap is still as big as it was back when the 603e was still in widespread use.
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I wouldn't underestimate the improvements a functioning L2 cache would make. Memory speeds haven't increased as sharply in real terms as CPU speeds. My now 7-year old PC has then state-of-the-art DDR3 memory running right up to it's cycle timing limits (which are still better than a lot of RAM on sale today). The CPU still has 12MiB of L2 cache. Assuming memtest86 is telling the truth, the performance gap is still as big as it was back when the 603e was still in widespread use.
The 603e processor will not benefit much of a performance here with L2 cache. It may benefit other computers that don't run CPU with 75Mhz bus and slower ram access.
Here its running with 75Mhz bus with fastest access to ram. This makes a massive difference as to how OS4.x perform.
It not the bus speed that giving me performance even thou it plays a part its "ram access". L2 cache will have very little impact here. The difference will be so small it makes it not worth the effort.
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It is a pity that there is no version of WarpOS, because under the OS4.1 already Wipeout 2097 running slower.
Under extreme testing this game runs at full speed as does Freespace 1024x768 screemode (PCI bus speed 38.5Mhz) preliminary.
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I wouldn't underestimate the improvements a functioning L2 cache would make. Memory speeds haven't increased as sharply in real terms as CPU speeds. My now 7-year old PC has then state-of-the-art DDR3 memory running right up to it's cycle timing limits (which are still better than a lot of RAM on sale today). The CPU still has 12MiB of L2 cache. Assuming memtest86 is telling the truth, the performance gap is still as big as it was back when the 603e was still in widespread use.
And I thought Red Bull F1 2014 packaging was tight,but this is just one insane threaded. See page two & three for a laugh.
Can your state-of-art DDR3 do those timing in link below? Do not take this seriously its a joke.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?113551-Ddr2-1-1-1-1-by-kyosen&
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There are different opinions on which is the most important timing parameters.
Ignore one posting on page 2 & 3
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?113551-Ddr2-1-1-1-1-by-kyosen&
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Hello sirs! I have a funny subject that is bound to cause some controversy. Or at least thats what I hope, coz I cant get answers anywhere else.
Well result is its possible, but even in Windowed mode, hardware is too weak. Why not Quake or Quake 2?
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It will interesting to know how 366Mhz+ Cyberstorm perform. These high performance cards already have very good memory access & video card(s),but looking at other threads some users say performance is not there.
I did a test some time ago with OS4.x with Freespace & Wipeout with 1024x768 screenmode with Permedia 2 both games ran ultra smooth but this is the extreme (overclocked). The video bus was clocked @38.5Mhz.
The Video bus is without doubt the problem,this is what was detected here. I feel very confident to say this game will work in at least 640x480 with Permedia 2,but the video bus speed modification is not available and "new" speed is still being worked on.
I have said this before in other threads,when the video bus is clocked anywhere near 38.5Mhz+ this is where visually there is a dramatic change.