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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Motormouth on March 31, 2018, 08:49:51 PM
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I finally was able the Mediator i4000D v3.3 version working!!!!
This was after several months of frustration and several months waiting to get it back from Elbox. etc....
But to Elbox's credit it now works great!!!!
Overall it is quite nice. It works well with a v3.3 Radeon 9250 I got fairly cheaply on fleebay and even nicer is the fact that the Sonnet 7200 G4 works very well without modification with the version 13.1 pci.library and Jenkin's latest sonnet powerpc.library.
The question I have for all of you is how useful is Warp3d?
It look like the mediator supports warp3d with Voodoo, but not with Radeon.
So I guess my questions are:
1) How important/useful is Warp3d?
2) Is there a Radeon Warp3d library?
3) If not Which is faster in PPC games a Voodoo3 with Warp3d or Radeon 9250 without?
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I finally was able the Mediator i4000D v3.3 version working!!!!
This was after several months of frustration and several months waiting to get it back from Elbox. etc....
But to Elbox's credit it now works great!!!!
Overall it is quite nice. It works well with a v3.3 Radeon 9250 I got fairly cheaply on fleebay and even nicer is the fact that the Sonnet 7200 G4 works very well without modification with the version 13.1 pci.library and Jenkin's latest sonnet powerpc.library.
The question I have for all of you is how useful is Warp3d?
It look like the mediator supports warp3d with Voodoo, but not with Radeon.
So I guess my questions are:
1) How important/useful is Warp3d?
2) Is there a Radeon Warp3d library?
3) If not Which is faster in PPC games a Voodoo3 with Warp3d or Radeon 9250 without?
1) If you want to play the games that support Warp3D, then you don't want to play them in software mode. If you don't want to play any of the Warp3D games then not useful.
2) No, there is no Radeon Warp3D driver, this needs to be written or ported from OS4.
3) A Voodoo3 in Warp3D mode will be 2-4x+ faster than a Radeon in software mode and look better too.
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1) If you want to play the games that support Warp3D, then you don't want to play them in software mode. If you don't want to play any of the Warp3D games then not useful.
2) No, there is no Radeon Warp3D driver, this needs to be written or ported from OS4.
3) A Voodoo3 in Warp3D mode will be 2-4x+ faster than a Radeon in software mode and look better too.
Thanks! for the response :)
This is similar to what I expected :(
I do have a voodoo3 I can put in the system, i was hoping to keep it with the Prometheus and put that in a 3000 , but I will put it with the sonnet.
The biggest this I like about the radeon is that it is runs much cooler that the voodoo
The extra memory is also nice, but not a big limitation given the sonnet has memory, and I have a zorram in the computer as well.
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1) If you want to play the games that support Warp3D, then you don't want to play them in software mode. If you don't want to play any of the Warp3D games then not useful.
2) No, there is no Radeon Warp3D driver, this needs to be written or ported from OS4.
3) A Voodoo3 in Warp3D mode will be 2-4x+ faster than a Radeon in software mode and look better too.
Pity, under OS4 or MorphOS the Radeon would dust a Voodoo3. And both of those OS' support Warp3D funtionality with the Radeon.
Anyone know why there isn't a Radeon driver for legacy applications?
It seems kind of dumb considering it shouldn't be that hard to backport.
In fact, the R200 drivers under both OS4 and MorphOS are so mature that they perform really well.
Many MorphOS users didn't move to higher cards when the R300 drivers were introduced because everything above the R200 (under MorphOS) isn't W3D compatible.
And the performance gain was less than you'd assume.
Still, the Voodoo3's performance isn't that shabby.
It beats the other solutions (except for the previously mentioned Radeon).
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@ Motormouth
yup been in the same boat here with my 1200T and my Radeon 9250 can use all it's 256MB BUT no go to play on Warp3D games unfortunaley...at least not yet anyhow..maybe A-Eon/ Amigakit is working on this:confused:
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Pity, under OS4 or MorphOS the Radeon would dust a Voodoo3. And both of those OS' support Warp3D funtionality with the Radeon.
Anyone know why there isn't a Radeon driver for legacy applications?
It seems kind of dumb considering it shouldn't be that hard to backport.
In fact, the R200 drivers under both OS4 and MorphOS are so mature that they perform really well.
Many MorphOS users didn't move to higher cards when the R300 drivers were introduced because everything above the R200 (under MorphOS) isn't W3D compatible.
And the performance gain was less than you'd assume.
Still, the Voodoo3's performance isn't that shabby.
It beats the other solutions (except for the previously mentioned Radeon).
It would be helpful if elbox would make a warp3d driver for the radeon particularly since they support if for 2D video and memory on the mediator. And as Iggy says R200 solutions on platforms related to amigaOS 3.1 do have warp3d drivers.
Funny I have a R200 card in a G5 mac with MorphOS on it.
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@ Motormouth
yup been in the same boat here with my 1200T and my Radeon 9250 can use all it's 256MB BUT no go to play on Warp3D games unfortunaley...at least not yet anyhow..maybe A-Eon/ Amigakit is working on this:confused:
Thanks this info.
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It would be helpful if elbox would make a warp3d driver for the radeon particularly since they support if for 2D video and memory on the mediator. And as Iggy says R200 solutions on platforms related to amigaOS 3.1 do have warp3d drivers.
Funny I have a R200 card in a G5 mac with MorphOS on it.
Not that funny, I've suggested that to others before.
Its the one way you can get W3D compatibility with the G5.
And a 9200 with a Mac rom can used the full AGP 8X bandwidth (although a 9000 isn't significantly slower).
The R200 drivers under MorphOS and OS4 are very mature and perform surprisingly well.
Since Hyperion has an R200 driver for OS4, and they want to continue to develop OS3.1, why not push them to support the R200?
After all, OS4 supports the mediator, why shouldn't OS3.1?
If you wait for Elbox to do it....well we all know how long that wait could be (and we're not getting any younger).
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Since Hyperion has an R200 driver for OS4, and they want to continue to develop OS3.1, why not push them to support the R200?
After all, OS4 supports the mediator, why shouldn't OS3.1?
If you wait for Elbox to do it....well we all know how long that wait could be (and we're not getting any younger).
Out of curiosity, can you even buy an R200-series card that physically fits in a Mediator? I thought they were PCI only? Or are you talking about doing it with adapters?
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I don't think Elbox are ever going to publish a Warp3D driver for a Radeon as they haven't even fixed the problems with the Voodoo 4/5. I doubt Hyperion will port any Radeon Warp3D drivers for OS 3.X since it's a significant amount of effort and they have other things to do. Maybe a bounty could entice someone to do it. I'm in for $50.
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Out of curiosity, can you even buy an R200-series card that physically fits in a Mediator? I thought they were PCI only? Or are you talking about doing it with adapters?
You can get PCI versions of the 92x0. There are many 3.3V on Fleebay, not nearly as many 5V.
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Not that funny, I've suggested that to others before.
Its the one way you can get W3D compatibility with the G5.
And a 9200 with a Mac rom can used the full AGP 8X bandwidth (although a 9000 isn't significantly slower).
The R200 drivers under MorphOS and OS4 are very mature and perform surprisingly well.
Since Hyperion has an R200 driver for OS4, and they want to continue to develop OS3.1, why not push them to support the R200?
After all, OS4 supports the mediator, why shouldn't OS3.1?
If you wait for Elbox to do it....well we all know how long that wait could be (and we're not getting any younger).
I don't think Elbox are ever going to publish a Warp3D driver for a Radeon as they haven't even fixed the problems with the Voodoo 4/5. I doubt Hyperion will port any Radeon Warp3D drivers for OS 3.X since it's a significant amount of effort and they have other things to do. Maybe a bounty could entice someone to do it. I'm in for $50.
@Iggy Sorry, I guess I was saying funny in relation to the ClassicOS. Yes you are correct the R200 came standard with the G5. The G5 I bought was upgraded to a geforce 6800 (a quite powerful card at the time). I had to down grade to the original radeon card that came with the G5 so that I could use MorphOS on it. Finding a MAC version of the card was surprisingly harder than I though at a reasonable price.
The G5 is a very impressive computer, both as a MAC and as a MorphOS box.
@amiadudeorwat Alas, you are probably right :(
As for a bounty, I would also be in......
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@Iggy Sorry, I guess I was saying funny in relation to the ClassicOS. Yes you are correct the R200 came standard with the G5.
The smallest card that shipped with a G5 was a 64MB Radeon9600Pro which is a RV350.
R200 cards were supposed to go into G4, with the one build for
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Congrats on getting both the mediator and the sonnet working, Motormouth! They're good aren't they! :)
Is the sonnet working stably for you, any issues or teething problems? The massive thread on eab is worth checking out if you havent already done so.
Regarding Radeon vs Voodoo: for a classic system I can't think of many reasons to choose the Radeon over the Voodoo. The Radeon's ram might be useful on the 68k side of the house but it's zorro ram and will be much slower than ram on your accelerator; it is not used at all by the sonnet. Warp3D on the Voodoo is much more useful if you're at all interested in playing games - BlitzQuake, Quake2, Quake3, Hexen2, Wipeout 2097 etc all make use of Warp3D.
Make sure you populate the sonnet with as much ram as you can - 192mb is what you're aiming for to give the best gaming experience.
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You can get PCI versions of the 92x0. There are many 3.3V on Fleebay, not nearly as many 5V.
Oops, I was thinking of the newer cards - R7 250, R7 260, etc.
http://www.xfxforce.com/en-us/products/amd-radeon-r7-200-series#*
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Nice thread! maybe we could ask AEon to develop warp3d driver for radeon card to support classic system and they could sell them with the enancher software package for classic.. this would be great imho :-)
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The smallest card that shipped with a G5 was a 64MB Radeon9600Pro which is a RV350.
R200 cards were supposed to go into G4, with the one build for
Congrats on getting both the mediator and the sonnet working, Motormouth! They're good aren't they! :)
Is the sonnet working stably for you, any issues or teething problems? The massive thread on eab is worth checking out if you havent already done so.
Regarding Radeon vs Voodoo: for a classic system I can't think of many reasons to choose the Radeon over the Voodoo. The Radeon's ram might be useful on the 68k side of the house but it's zorro ram and will be much slower than ram on your accelerator; it is not used at all by the sonnet. Warp3D on the Voodoo is much more useful if you're at all interested in playing games - BlitzQuake, Quake2, Quake3, Hexen2, Wipeout 2097 etc all make use of Warp3D.
Make sure you populate the sonnet with as much ram as you can - 192mb is what you're aiming for to give the best gaming experience.
@Kronos I stand corrected, it is a R350, Kronos you are right.
I remember going to this quite interesting website to findout about mac for MorphOS
this page has how all mac are originally equipped
https://everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g5/faq/powermac-g5-adc-ports-dvi-ports-resolutions-supported.html
My G5 is the Early 2005 2.0 Ghz model. I found an original card which a 9600 (non pro or XT) with 128 Meg Ram, kinda of a weird combo (ie not pro or xt and 128 meg).
These were the last of the AGP macs, was there not a plan to get the 11,2 powermacs G5s to be MorphOS compatible? I guess the biggest problem would be the need for the GForce 6600 PCI-E drivers??? just a guess.
@trixster Thanks for asking. The mediator with the Sonnet took me a few tries to get working. The problem I had with the Radeon and Sonnet working together was the busmaster jumper. The Github starting guide:
https://github.com/Sakura-IT/SonnetAmiga/wiki/Sonnet-first-time-installation-guide
said to keep the jumper closed, but the mediator manual says to have it open for a PCI card busmastering (vs Amiga CPU busmastering for close jumper)
Eventually I open it and everything started to work. Otherwise the guide was awesome.
I have had issues getting the Sonnet to work with the voodoo however. I figured out it was the Sonnet's ram. I have 4k modules (ie 128 meg 5v FPM) . The starters guide says it only works with 2k modules
The radeon didn't seem to care and worked with no problem with 3 128meg modules (or 384 meg) with only 128 meg mounting (because the radeon has 128 megs) 256 total.
The voodoo seems not to like more than 192megs in the sonnet. I put a 128meg module and a 64meg module, everything started to work.
Oh and if the powerpc.library is in the Libs: directory without the InitPPC command in the right place in the startup-sequence, it will hang the computer.
Otherwise use the script method as described in the guide after the amiga is booted.
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The smallest card that shipped with a G5 was a 64MB Radeon9600Pro which is a RV350.
R200 cards were supposed to go into G4, with the one build for
The cards I've seen running in G5s were reflashed Radeon 9200s.
The Apple 9000 is a 4X AGP card with a power connector for the ADC power supply that is in the wrong place for a G5.
I'm not sure a PC 9000 couldn't be modified for use in a G5, but I've never tried a 4X card in a G5.
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was there not a plan to get the 11,2 powermacs G5s to be MorphOS compatible? I guess the biggest problem would be the need for the GForce 6600 PCI-E drivers???
a) widely off-topic
b) there never was "a plan" to make them supported
c) it is a badly kept secret that these indeed worked with 3.10beta(no idea wether that is still in the release) if you installed a supported PCIe Radeon (PPC-BIOS not needed)
d) NVidia is t3h eViL !!!!
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a) widely off-topic
b) there never was "a plan" to make them supported
c) it is a badly kept secret that these indeed worked with 3.10beta(no idea wether that is still in the release) if you installed a supported PCIe Radeon (PPC-BIOS not needed)
d) NVidia is t3h eViL !!!!
First, the 11,2 IS MorphOS compatible and some people have them running the OS, BUT it isn't supported and there is no plan to add this to the public distro (so buy an X5000).
Second, you do not need a Nvidia video card, as there is a Apple Radeon X1900GT for the 11,2 that should work perfectly.
And if you are willing to forego access to openfirm, then the newly supported PC cards (without a Mac rom) will work fine.
Nvidia cards will never be supported under MorphOS (and don't look likely under OS4). If you want to use one, switch to AROS.
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a) widely off-topic
Noted
Back the radeon 9250 vs voodoo 3
The radeon 9250 with the Sonnet is very very stable, just no Warp3D
The Voodoo 3 is much less stable with the sonnet, I get guru 8000 0004's all the time
I found this interest, albeit dated page, the unreliable mediator guide:
https://mediators.github.io/
It discussed the 8000 0004 with the voodoo
It suggest a little program called dtack I get significantly less 8000 0004 errors,
but like the unreliable mediator guide says warp3d crashes with it, which is kinda like being back at using a radeon 9250 without warp3d, very very frustrating.
I am attempting to put both the radeon 9250 and the voodoo3 in the mediator.
I am going to configure the radeon to be the pcidma memory, while using the voodoo3 as just the display.
Initial attempts with this configuration seem a bit more stable, but I still get a couple crashes with WOS and Warp3d at the same time. I think I need to adjust some of the mediator variables. I still have some voodoo pcidma memory.
First, the 11,2 IS MorphOS compatible and some people have them running the OS, BUT it isn't supported and there is no plan to add this to the public distro (so buy an X5000).
Cool! :) the 11,2 is a very nice model.
The cards I've seen running in G5s were reflashed Radeon 9200s.
The Apple 9000 is a 4X AGP card with a power connector for the ADC power supply that is in the wrong place for a G5.
I'm not sure a PC 9000 couldn't be modified for use in a G5, but I've never tried a 4X card in a G5.
Back the one of initial question, a warp3d library for the mediator/radeon 92x0 and classicOS would be nice ;)
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Yes, from what I understand 11,2 PowerMac support was pulled from MorphOS 3.10. It could see distribution eventually, but I personally wouldn't want to see it cannibalize X5000 sales.
AND the X5000 is much more power efficient (G5 PowerMacs make great space heaters, and their fans at full speed are quite loud).
Your experiments with using both the Radeon 9200 and the Voodoo3 sound interesting. The extra memory on the Radeon can be put to good use.
Is it possible to use both cards for display, or does using Voodoo3 preclude the use of the 9200 for display?
And if Warp3D is the only component missing from the 9200 driver, it sounds like we just need a talented coder.
The fact that W3D support exists under OS4 and MorphOS provides two examples of how this can be implemented, so it should be easier than using a Linux driver as an example (of course the lack of source code is problematic, but I can remember disassembling machine code on the 68K, so it shouldn't be impossible to examine the PPC code to get an idea of what its doing).
Addendum - Oh, has anyone thought about using a higher end PCI card like the Radeon HD 5450 in a mediator? Again, there are OS4 and MorphOS drivers for that (albeit without W3D support), and that would be a kick ass combo with the Sonnet.
AND, how is the attempt to backwards engineer the Sonnet going?
It ought to be possible to build faster variants of that card.
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I havent seen anything new on backwards engineering the sonnet.
The sonnet team have progressed onto getting other PPC PMC cards running with PMC->PCI adapters. These are quite a lot faster than the sonnet but require power modifications to get running stably.
https://github.com/Sakura-IT/SonnetAmiga/wiki/Installing-a-Rapture-card
I believe they're working on their own stand-alone card but no details have been made public on that so far.
For out-of-the-box turn-key use the Sonnet G3/G4 is still the easiest solution to get running and provides excellent performance.
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I havent seen anything new on backwards engineering the sonnet.
The sonnet team have progressed onto getting other PPC PMC cards running with PMC->PCI adapters. These are quite a lot faster than the sonnet but require power modifications to get running stably.
https://github.com/Sakura-IT/SonnetAmiga/wiki/Installing-a-Rapture-card
I believe they're working on their own stand-alone card but no details have been made public on that so far.
For out-of-the-box turn-key use the Sonnet G3/G4 is still the easiest solution to get running and provides excellent performance.
Except...they are almost as rare as hen's teeth.
And a re-implementation of the card could run two to three times faster.
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Your experiments with using both the Radeon 9200 and the Voodoo3 sound interesting. The extra memory on the Radeon can be put to good use.
Is it possible to use both cards for display, or does using Voodoo3 preclude the use of the 9200 for display?
Update, The Radeon 9250 works just fine with the Voodoo3. When using picassomode The Radeon board is always.... always board0 and the voodoo board1 no matter what order the boards are in the mediator, nor if one was in first (ie by itself with a previous configuration). This suggests that the radeon device is being mounted first during boot. (alphabetical order perhaps????)
This being said if the radeon was previously configured (board0), you need to add new monitor profiles for the voodoo (board1). If the voodoo was by itself first (ie board0) it becomes board1, and the new radeon becomes board0. Therefore both monitor modes for both cards need to be reconfigured.
It if funny to have the workbench screen being displayed by the radeon and the picasso test pattern on the voodoo output.
Some really interesting things happen with many programs. If you have a warp3d workbench window open you need to have a 16bit voodoo3 mode configured for as your monitor preference, things will otherwise crash, ie gears opened in a windoew.. Otherwise for full screen modes warp3d will always go to the voodoo3 (as these are the only warp3d drivers I have installed) otherwise a new 2-d full screen video output will attempt to go to the radeon modes, unless otherwise configured.
Maximum ram that can be configured with the Sonnet in the system is 256 megs, if the radeon has 128 megs of ram, the sonnet will/can only have 128 megs. This seems to be true even if the mediator is configured for 512 megs of address space. Unlike what I said in an early post, with just the voodoo and the sonnet, I can put 256 megs of ram in the sonnet.
What is really weird with the 256 meg limit. If the radeon and sonnet are in the mediator together, if more than 256 meg of memory between the two are in the system, the extra sonnet memory will not be mounted and used, but otherwise everything works. But once you put the voodoo in the system (either with or without the radeon) if you go above 256 megs (ie aboe 128 meg radeon /128meg sonnet, or above 256 meg sonnet only no radeon) everything will crash. I find this interesting.
Sonnet memory configures as 32 bit "sonnet memory", it always leave 6 megs unmounted (I assume this is for powerpc.library stuff)
The radeon's extra memory is always mounted as 32 bit "pcidma memory" which can be used with the 680x0.
And the voodoo always have a least 1 meg of memory (depending on configuration) as "pcidma memory", if by itself (no radeon, radeon usually has much much more) you need at least 3 megs of pcidma memory from the video card to do dma transfers between the amiga and the sonnet or the powerpc.library will bring up a message saying that it needs 3 meg of pcidma memory.
After all of this the PPC and warp3d together still crashes randomly.
warp3d and 68k works without any issues.
PPC works by itself without any issues.
but PPC and warp3d, though more stable with the radeon card still generates a variety of
8000 000x errors mostly where x = 4, A, or B.
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Motormouth, I would recommend you post on the eab thread. A bunch of people have had similar issues to what you're seeing, most of which have been resolved.
Have you tried a fresh workbench install? It is recommended to start with no more than wb3.9 + bb1 and bb2 to try and rule out a dodgy patch causing issues.
Have you tried tweaking the setcmemdiv parameter? Sometimes allowing the sonnet to autodetect the cachemem speed causes instability.
SetCMemDiv (0-5): Sets the speed divider of the L2 Cache memory. 5 = 3, 4 = 2.5, 3 = 2, 2 = 1.5, 1 = 1, 0 = Handled by library. Default = 0. For example: A Sonnet with speed 500 MHz and setting 5 will run the L2 cache at 166 MHz (500/3).
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Nice thread! maybe we could ask AEon to develop warp3d driver for radeon card to support classic system and they could sell them with the enancher software package for classic.. this would be great imho :-)
I think if someone approached A-EON offering to do the work it could happen but I can't see them diverting their current resources towards this.
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I think if someone approached A-EON offering to do the work it could happen but I can't see them diverting their current resources towards this.
AND Aeon doesn't produce software, it pays others as outside contractors to do it.
Further, the existing OS4 R200 driver (as a model) is quite old.
Hyperion could do the backport, as they have the OS4 source code, and they claim they want to support OS3.1, BUT it adds to the other tasks they are already swamped with.
OR you guys could establish a bounty and pay someone write this for you. Can you think of anyone, with experience writing W3D drivers for OS4? One person comes in mind to me.
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OR you guys could establish a bounty and pay someone write this for you. Can you think of anyone, with experience writing W3D drivers for OS4? One person comes in mind to me.
I would be very interested to have a talented programmer, like yourself, to take on the challenge and certainly would be interested in contributing to a bounty. Would you want to do something like indigogo. Or via paypal donations account. Further, I would assume this would be best effort. Feel free to pmail me. I know I would be willing to beta test for you. My only caveat would be it would need not only be warp3d compatible but be warp3d compatible with the mediator as their warp3d libraries are a bit different. The Prometheus would also be a plus.
Oh, by the way I think I know what is wrong with my setup. I think it is the Voodoo card itself. Sometimes the mediator says it has 13 megs of ram and sometimes 16 megs of ram.
I think it may be a bad memory chip. This probably would not effect 2-D video if the chip is mapped high. The 2-D video would use lowest ram first. However it might effect pcidma memory.
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Motormouth, I would recommend you post on the eab thread. A bunch of people have had similar issues to what you're seeing, most of which have been resolved.
Have you tried a fresh workbench install? It is recommended to start with no more than wb3.9 + bb1 and bb2 to try and rule out a dodgy patch causing issues.
Have you tried tweaking the setcmemdiv parameter? Sometimes allowing the sonnet to autodetect the cachemem speed causes instability.
SetCMemDiv (0-5): Sets the speed divider of the L2 Cache memory. 5 = 3, 4 = 2.5, 3 = 2, 2 = 1.5, 1 = 1, 0 = Handled by library. Default = 0. For example: A Sonnet with speed 500 MHz and setting 5 will run the L2 cache at 166 MHz (500/3).
@trixster thanks for the advise. I finally made an EAB account. The EAB threads are quite good. I am going through them. I have the setcmemdiv unset. getinfo says it is a its default value, I might however attempt to set the setcmemdiv at what would be the default.
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sonnet is dead rapture-g4 is the new and we need better support r300+
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Pity, under OS4 or MorphOS the Radeon would dust a Voodoo3. And both of those OS' support Warp3D funtionality with the Radeon.
I haven't made any tests recently, but in old times (MorphOS 1.4.5) Voodoo3 wasn't that bad compared to Radeons, actually pretty same level beating some Radeons :)
Here's my old test with Peg1 and MorphOS 1.4.5:
Quake I fps Quake III fps
R7000 36 1
R9200 SE 71 22
Voodoo3 3000 71 25
R7500 Club3D 85 23
R8500 LE 100 24
R7500 ATI 100 25
One thing to consider is that Voodoo3 only has 16 bit depths, while Radeons have 24/32bit.
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sonnet is dead rapture-g4 is the new and we need better support r300+
Not for the lucky few that have them :) but understood, However getting video cards working with what ever solution is useful even with rapture-g4
I haven't made any tests recently, but in old times (MorphOS 1.4.5) Voodoo3 wasn't that bad compared to Radeons, actually pretty same level beating some Radeons :)
Here's my old test with Peg1 and MorphOS 1.4.5:
Quake I fps Quake III fps
R7000 36 1
R9200 SE 71 22
Voodoo3 3000 71 25
R7500 Club3D 85 23
R8500 LE 100 24
R7500 ATI 100 25
One thing to consider is that Voodoo3 only has 16 bit depths, while Radeons have 24/32bit.
To be fair you picked the fastest Voodoo 3 (ie the 3000) and picked the slowest r200's (ie the R8500LE and R9200 SE, with the 9200 you would want the faster model with the 128 bit transfer ram (not the SE with slower gpu and 64 bit transfer).
However the real reason to be interested in the 9200 is that it is available (voodoo's are become rare like sonnets) and cheap. Additionally they run much cooler than the voodoos.
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Also, what resolution is that?
To be fair you picked the fastest Voodoo 3 (ie the 3000) and picked the slowest r200's (ie the R8500LE and R9200 SE, with the 9200 you would want the faster model with the 128 bit transfer ram (not the SE with slower gpu and 64 bit transfer).
However the real reason to be interested in the 9200 is that it is available (voodoo's are become rare like sonnets) and cheap. Additionally they run much cooler than the voodoos.
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reason i say this is cause the rapture-g4 will be 7447/7457 PPC with DDR cache those radeons are underpowered we need x series or better support
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reason i say this is cause the rapture-g4 will be 7447/7457 PPC with DDR cache those radeons are underpowered we need x series or better support
I do agree in principle, but radeon r200 already has picasso drivers and elbox support. Only need warp3d drivers.
Additionally, as Iggy has indicated, W3D do already exist for MorphOS and OS4.
For the X radeon you would need to write a bunch of stuff (even MorphOS 3D support of these are non-W3D).
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I do agree in principle, but radeon r200 already has picasso drivers and elbox support. Only need warp3d drivers.
Additionally, as Iggy has indicated, W3D do already exist for MorphOS and OS4.
For the X radeon you would need to write a bunch of stuff (even MorphOS 3D support of these are non-W3D).
doesnt matter thats what is needed or its pointless also on top of that we will run a 32bit@66mhz pci bus
the voodoo now is garbage for the 450mhz rapture even more with altivec
issue also now is W3D on classic and running higher resolutions
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpDFPg2ELo4
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also just fyi i might have some extra sonnets was gonna upgrade them to g4's just never got around too it as im a very busy man:)
but sonnet is way slower due to g3(no altivec) uses 168pin dram and the bus runs at 66mhz
the rapture 450mhz is 100mhz and the 7447/7457 is 133mhz 60xbus
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpDFPg2ELo4
Very Cool, How did you get the Radeon working with warp3d in classic OS!!!!!
Are you going to make this available?????
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Very Cool, How did you get the Radeon working with warp3d in classic OS!!!!!
Are you going to make this available?????
+ 1 trillion..I'd love to get my radeon 9250 working with Warp3D in my 1200T:hammer::pint:
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@kev711
Please tell us you are not using
Warp3D_CPU_PPC
or
Wazp3D
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Very Cool, How did you get the Radeon working with warp3d in classic OS!!!!!
Are you going to make this available?????
That video is from Hedeon from the Sonnet Amiga project.
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That video is from Hedeon from the Sonnet Amiga project.
@amiadudeorwat and trixster
It is obvious that I need to keep up with the EAB amiga sonnet thread........
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@amiadudeorwat and trixster
It is obvious that I need to keep up with the EAB amiga sonnet thread........
@Iggy
I looks like the other side of the pond wants an R200 driver too. ;)
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not my work that is hedeons work i just posted cause not 1 has noticed it on youtube as its been there for awhile lol
just get in touch with him as it still needs work
im just the hardware guy
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Porting the OS4 drivers for R100/R200 to classic is a bit more involved than potentially writing from scratch, in part because they share an OS4 only resource with the compositing engine. Occasionally there are other obstacles too, for the unwary. For example, the Picasso 96 driver for Permedia had to be changed to get a functuonal Warp3D driver for OS4 since the initial 2D subsystem only cared about minimal alignment of bitmaps and not the specific encoded sizes required for hardware rasterizarion to work. This meant most bitmaps allocated by the graphics system were not suitable for 3D.
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In hindsight, I'm also of the opinion that a less modular warp3d implementation for classic makes sense. For example, having a whole array of precompiled warp3d libraries and you install the one specific to your rtg/3d chip.
This may sound like heresy and a huge retrograde step but it has a lot of advantages for older systems. For example, in warp3d the rtg library component handles allocation of memory and the 3d component has no say, but on an 8MB card the allocation strategy that works best will nor be the same as some 128MB one. Also, it would remove many layers of indirection and partial features like multiple card support that add a lot of complexity. Finally, just support v4 and v5 vertex arrays and emulate the v3 calls using them. A single drop in library that will either work or fail to open if it isn't correct for your system.
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In hindsight, I'm also of the opinion that a less modular warp3d implementation for classic makes sense. For example, having a whole array of precompiled warp3d libraries and you install the one specific to your rtg/3d chip.
Reminds me of the SGI Indy that I use to have at work:)
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I just read this ~ four year old thread:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=65900
Sniff, Sniff , it make me want to cry :(
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@ Motormouth
bounty time again then:hammer:
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As I see it the problems are:
* Finding the people that have the time, skills and inclination. Writing hardware drivers is time consuming and a pain in the rear to debug.
* Getting access to the legacy W3D source. It has moved on since OS4.
* Identifying all the other problems. As I said before, even the 2D drivers for OS4 use the 3D engine for compositing so you know the hardware is initialised correctly. Its likely that a legacy R200 driver will need more set up as it can't depend on anything being done for it.
* Your new 68K R200 driver may suffer memory management problems without work to the rtg driver component. that in turn many need changes to Picasso driver.
* You may have even more problems if your card is in a Mediator1200, at least from the software side.
* Maybe GRexx owners want someblove too.
* And finally, doing all this without elbox wanting to kick you where it hurts, because apparently they don't like other people writing drivers for their stuff.
If you think a bounty can address these then great.
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Drivers for later cards under OS4 have to use 3D gpu functions since there aren't any 2D functions.
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Drivers for later cards under OS4 have to use 3D gpu functions since there aren't any 2D functions.
My point is that the OS4 Warp3D driver for R100/200 relies on functionality nor available to OS3.x, so a back port becomes a bit more involved.
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Drivers for later cards under OS4 have to use 3D gpu functions since there aren't any 2D functions.
Ahem.... I'll just leave this here......
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=karl+site%3Awww.amigaos.net
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My point is that the OS4 Warp3D driver for R100/200 relies on functionality nor available to OS3.x, so a back port becomes a bit more involved.
So it would be best to do it from scratch. Got it.
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Ahem.... I'll just leave this here......
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=karl+site%3Awww.amigaos.net
Wow, it takes a lot of coders to be second best. :hammer:
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Wow, it takes a lot of coders to be second best. :hammer:
Taking part is what matters.
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Taking part is what matters.
Yeah, I know.
Hope the AmigaOS diehards don't get offended by the jab.
And outside of OS development, the base of developers creating useful programs isn't bad.
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I think I stand by my earlier point. A single warp3d library replacement, pre compiled for a specific GPU/PCI/rtg combo is the only way to get past all the issues, technical and political. The source can and should be as modular as you like, but you need a fresh start implementation wise. A driver for warp3d on the classic just isn't likely to happen. As it stands, reimplementing the API in a totally separate project doesn't violate anything and already happened with wazp3d. Use OpenPCI to get around elbox's self destructive desire to crush any third party drivers and open source the whole thing.
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Yeah, I know.
Hope the AmigaOS diehards don't get offended by the jab.
And outside of OS development, the base of developers creating useful programs isn't bad.
My point was that Karlos is one of the AmigaOS developers Jim. Specifically GPU driver development and Warp3D.
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My point was that Karlos is one of the AmigaOS developers Jim. Specifically GPU driver development and Warp3D.
Was, more like. I got married and had kids since then...
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Was, more like. I got married and had kids since then...
OH! So it's your wife's fault that there isn't an updated Radeon driver. Now I get it. :hammer:
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Toss in the fact that my A1 decided to join its departed siblings a few years ago now, then the HD on which all my development work died suddenly before I could back it up properly (and still remains to be recovered). Lots to repair and do, but the fact is I have far bigger and more important responsibilities these days.
One day, when the munchkins are a bit older I may get some time for my old hobby. Assuming any of my Amiga gear even works by then.
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Toss in the fact that my A1 decided to join its departed siblings a few years ago now, then the HD on which all my development work died suddenly before I could back it up properly (and still remains to be recovered). Lots to repair and do, but the fact is I have far bigger and more important responsibilities these days.
One day, when the munchkins are a bit older I may get some time for my old hobby. Assuming any of my Amiga gear even works by then.
The Frankentower will probably outlast all of us lol
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then the HD on which all my development work died
This is why developers should use services like github etc.
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This is why developers should use services like github etc.
Yes, that's a perfectly dreadful lose.
But if its a mechanical drive you might be able to salvage the data.
My last two loses? SSDs...no warning...done...toast.
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My last two loses? SSDs...no warning...done...toast.
What kind of SSD? I have only experienced that writing no longer work, but never had any trouble reading data from "dead" SSDs. It also helps if the filesystem is aware of the concept "SSD" and behaves accordingly :)
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This is why developers should use services like github etc.
I was preparing to migrate my personal svn repo and also back up everything else both locally and where appropriate to cloud storage. There was zero warning of the HD failure, I nothing in smart, etc. In an epic example of irony, the day I'd set aside to do this was the exact same day I saw the Disk Boot Failure message.
I believe the drive controller board or firmware failed and as such it's recoverable. It's also expensive.
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What kind of SSD? I have only experienced that writing no longer work, but never had any trouble reading data from "dead" SSDs. It also helps if the filesystem is aware of the concept "SSD" and behaves accordingly :)
Well the latest issue is with an OWC drive I bought from AOTL.
Doesn't even bring up the drive parameters when connected.
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Did you all decide how much money it would be to write or port ATI 9X00 drivers for Warp3d for 3.x for 68k and PPC?
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@Karlos
If you need help covering the cost of recovery services for some important graphic driver source code I am sure some would help chip in. I would be happy making a modest donation. Stupid cat just cost me big bucks at vet. :\
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Everything I did on OS4 was at least in their version control repository. It was all my own stuff that I lost.
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Well, I finally solve my problem with the Voodoo 3 and the Sonnet. It was definitely the Voodoo 3. I found an old crappy original celeron PC at a yard sale. The computer didn't even have a AGP slot, but low and behold it had a pci voodoo in it. But not just any voodoo, but a pci voodoo 4. Well as you can imagine, I bought the PC, turned it on long enough to test the voodoo 4 and promptly put it in my A4000 where is it happily working with the sonnet
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Well, I finally solve my problem with the Voodoo 3 and the Sonnet. It was definitely the Voodoo 3. I found an old crappy original celeron PC at a yard sale. The computer didn't even have a AGP slot, but low and behold it had a pci voodoo in it. But not just any voodoo, but a pci voodoo 4. Well as you can imagine, I bought the PC, turned it on long enough to test the voodoo 4 and promptly put it in my A4000 where is it happily working with the sonnet
DAMN! I have been looking for one of those forever!
You are one lucky SOB!
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DAMN! I have been looking for one of those forever!
You are one lucky SOB!
It was partly luck, but I went to 2 flee markets and like 20 yard sales to find it. I figured I would find a 3 not a 4.
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@ Motormouth
wow what good luck:hammer: go play the lottery too while your hot:)
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Was, more like. I got married and had kids since then...
OH! So it's your wife's fault that there isn't an updated Radeon driver. Now I get it. :hammer:
lol always the 'wifes' fault for us not having time for stuff 'we actually like' ;-)
hmm so any news on Warp3D for Radon cards for our mediators one day or shall change the subject to the last unicorn sighting..