Amiga.org
Operating System Specific Discussions => Other Operating Systems => Topic started by: SysAdmin on September 10, 2013, 11:39:05 AM
-
http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/business/microsofts-lost-decade/436/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/whats-behind-microsofts-fall-from-dominance/2013/09/05/b0e5e91e-157b-11e3-804b-d3a1a3a18f2c_story.html
-
Shock horror.
Yet another thread by sysadmin trying to convince themselves that MS is a doomed entity.
Seriously, give it up please.
I thought this was amiga.org, not "Imanapplefanboydesperatetoconvincepeoplemicrosoftisdying.org".
Theyre still the dominant desktop OS by a factor of 10 or more, plus their console is doing quite well.
All businesses have teething problems when trying to break into new markets. Even if they dont capture much of the newer markets then so what? Are you really so sad that hoping others fail gets you up in the morning?
-
@fishy_fiz: Micro$hit IS doomed for real. Just look around you: PC sales are going down fast, while smartphone and tablet OSes are taking all over the place. Microsoft has lost these market to Google and Apple. Can you say otherwise?
And I'm happy to see M$ on it's knees at last: it has been the most harmful software company ever, with the worst products yet the highest desktop sales and user base. I'll truly celebrate their ruin!
-
If it werent for MS, we'd be using much less powerful hardware than we do now. Like it or not theyve played a huge part in what we're using today, even if a person choses another OS.
As for PC sales, that's a budget/recession thing as much, or moreso than a trend switching. Cheap/nasty phones and slate devices are more affordable to many people than a new computer (not to mention that a typical pc is as powerful as the phone/slate morons need, ergo they may not upgrade as frequently as they once mightve). Generic PC sales still outnumber apple pc sales by a massive margin.
Personally I dont care what people use, but this need to see others fail is sad and pathetic, and more than a little tiring. I visit amiga sites to read and chat about amigas, not to read about others delusions.
Also, "Micro$hit"?? Seriously? What are you, 12?
-
@gaula92 - It's evident that you have no idea what life is like in the business world.
The company I work for has over 15,000 computer users worldwide, ALL using Microsoft products. In spite of what you may think, most work is not done on tablets or smart phones, but by people sitting at desks using laptops or desktop machines. The business world has no intent of ever moving to an underpowered Android device or an overpriced Apple product. Thank goodness the majority of IT departments are run by intelligent managers, not by fan boys like yourself.
The ONLY contender for a business O/S besides Windows is, of course Linux, however I don't see much movement in that direction. The Linux business model is not what most companies are looking for in selecting an operating system, It's unfortunate, but true.
Whether you like it or not, Microsoft will be around for many years to come.
-
@gaula92
you seem to be forgetting the whole xbox area of Microsoft which is massive. Oh and the recent purchase of Nokia. I would hardly say they are on their knees.
Nintendo on the other hand......
-
Re: business. Business doesn't have high hardware and software turnover. There are businesses still running P4's with Server 2003 and Office 2003. Their computer is just a tool, they don't need a different hammer...we are one such business with 6000 employees..
OTOH consumers hardware is good enough and has been good enough since since Win 7 came out for most people's needs. Games no longer push the hardware as they once did. No new hardware means no new operating system is needed.
Also the Win 8 experience is just too jarring for experienced users, and lets face it, who wants to waste time and effort re-learning to do the same thing a different way.
The other thing is the sort of things that non-computer enthusiasts did on PC's they can do more coveniently with a phone.
-
MS isn't dying, falling apart or even crumbling to dust. They are simply adapting to today's reality where most people don't buy a new PC every year, and where mobile first is the new black.
At the moment they aren't the largest player, but that's not neccesarily a bad thing. People often like the underdog and considering what monsters Apple and Google have become, it's not unlikely they'll choose the lesser evil. :)
-
Also the Win 8 experience is just too jarring for experienced users, and lets face it, who wants to waste time and effort re-learning to do the same thing a different way.
Well said. It's true anytime an industry, or a company makes a 'business decision' without being tuned to their users. The same scenario is playing out with Gnome. It has been playing out for 40 years with US car companies.
What's behind Microsoft's fall from dominance? Their visionary took a hike.
Bill is often vilified (even caught a pie the face to great applause). Imagine the industry if Steve Jobs had managed to have Bill's uninterrupted success and dominance. I wonder if the dominant OS would have been more Orwellian.
-
I don't bother about Microsoft and they are more irrelevant to me than I am to them. Nevertheless, it's weird to see that there are millions of MS fanboys nowdays, not just 12year olds but older too.
-
Also the Win 8 experience is just too jarring for pussies
Fixed that for you.
It's different, if you can't cope with different then the Windows 8 UI change is not your biggest obstacle in life.
-
Fixed that for you.
It's different, if you can't cope with different then the Windows 8 UI change is not your biggest obstacle in life.
Not only it is different, it's worse too.
-
It's different, if you can't cope with different then the Windows 8 UI change is not your biggest obstacle in life.
And once again, we fall back on "well you're just a stupid poopyhead who's afraid of change!" Gee, it's almost like engaging the argument on any other terms might lead to having to argue about Metro's actual quality or appropriacy to a desktop/laptop setting or something.
What's behind Microsoft's fall from dominance? Maybe its insistence on trying to set "new directions" nobody wants and inflict them on the userbase by force rather than listen to what its users have been telling it for years now...
-
@psxphill has obviously never had to be in charge of an IT department with limited resources and a stretched-thin budget facing having to rewrite their enterprise software for compatibility and retrain 15,000 non-technical users who can barely use a pencil sharpener, and just want to be able to (quote) "get their work done"(TM). ;)
-
I havde heard that MS will fall song since the 90s, its not going to happen.
And regarding win8, you may or may not like it, but it took my mother a very short time, less than 1 hour, to learn it. It is actually very user friendly.
-
@fishy_fiz
Hmmm, I don't see any comments from me in this thread. I only linked to a technology news item for the Other Operating Systems forum. If you have no interest in this tech news move along to other threads please. Nothing to see here for you. The Washington Post Business section is a very reliable media source. Amazon's founder just bought the Washington Post for $250 million dollars.
-
If it weren't for MS, we'd be using much less powerful hardware than we do now.
I respectfully disagree, I would say MS has set the the IT industry back at least 10-30 years. You don't want the 100's of links I could post backing this up. Thank goodness for the internet where true innovation is able to thrive and grow. Win7 & XP are not bad if you need to run a certain application or have a business need for them. I would say they are not particularly good either. Kind of utilitarian and boring. There are some cool software/hardware products on Windows from 3rd party developers.
-
If it werent for MS, we'd be using much less powerful hardware than we do now.......
Because it was inefficient bloatware that needed powerful hardware to do anything useful...the complete opposite of Amiga OS;)
Who needs high-end multi-core CPU's for day to day stuff when you have Android for example on low power devices with CPU's running <1Ghz !?!
The only thing I truly like about Windows is the excellent emulators out there (Fusion, UAE, Spectaculator, FBA, MAME, MESS and so on). I can do office stuff on my Linux laptop.
-
Windows still does make for the best games console. While MS is going through a rough patch, they still have so many resources at their disposal not to mention pretty much the entire enterprise and business market. It's still going to take a planet killer to take MS down at this point, but they must get their act together and adapt or they'll keep losing market share. I think the first thing MS needs to do is reform their management structure and company spirit. A new inspiring leader would help a lot (instead of that current beancounter idiot).
-
I havde heard that MS will fall song since the 90s, its not going to happen.
And regarding win8, you may or may not like it, but it took my mother a very short time, less than 1 hour, to learn it. It is actually very user friendly.
Was that on a tablet or PC?
If it was a PC could you mother do what she does on a PC just as well on her phone or a touch tablet? If so then she's probably not someone who needs a PC anyway. In which case there's probably no compelling reason for it to be a Win 8 phone or tablet.
-
Hi,
Just going to say to all you apple fanboys, government employees own more PC's than apple will ever think of using or selling, and that isn't counting the gamers or the casual user. The only ones who use apple products are the ones that know absolutely nothing about computers. They have to call apple to find out where the on switch is at.
-
In which case there's probably no compelling reason for it to be a Win 8 phone or tablet.
The compelling reason is that it's by Microsoft and they are a software company. You can run Windows 8 on hardware that shipped with Windows XP. They are less likely to leave you out in the cold.
Apple stop offering OS updates after a few years, so you're forced to upgrade your phone.
With Android you're lucky if you get one update by your manufacturer and its likely to make your phone unusable. I have an android phone and I'm fed up with substandard software.
-
I respectfully disagree, I would say MS has set the the IT industry back at least 10-30 years. You don't want the 100's of links I could post backing this up. Thank goodness for the internet where true innovation is able to thrive and grow. Win7 & XP are not bad if you need to run a certain application or have a business need for them. I would say they are not particularly good either. Kind of utilitarian and boring. There are some cool software/hardware products on Windows from 3rd party developers.
Like it or not, MS *has* forced growth/progression in hardware. As a nice side effect pretty much every other computing device has progressed.
NVidia and Ati competed for the top spot in pc gfx performance, AMD and Intel have done the same. Core logic chipset features is also another battle, along with devices that rely on it.
All these things and many more took place on the pc (windows) battlefield, and have syphoned their way through to other devices, be it consoles, mobile devices, or whatever.
DirectX is the industry leading multimedia API, and sets the standards for graphics quality/performance (opengl was once ok but has been trailing for many years now(theres a reason next to no commercial games use it)).
-
It's dead Jim.
(http://i.qkme.me/3vktsi.jpg)
-
The compelling reason is that it's by Microsoft and they are a software company. You can run Windows 8 on hardware that shipped with Windows XP. They are less likely to leave you out in the cold.
Apple stop offering OS updates after a few years, so you're forced to upgrade your phone.
With Android you're lucky if you get one update by your manufacturer and its likely to make your phone unusable. I have an android phone and I'm fed up with substandard software.
I don't have any apple or android devices so I can't comment, but MS has a very long history of making hardware obsolete with their OS upgrades.
In fact it was the Vista disaster that told them people would not play the hardware upgrade game anymore, forcing them to make a faster booting more responsive , less resource hungry Win 7. Some say more so than even XP SP 3 on old machines.
No-one really knows what path they will take as Win 8 matures on phones and tablets- they might just exclude certain CPU's, GPU's, screen resolutions, especially now that they own hardware manufacturers like Nokia and make their own tablets. Its in their interest to force you to update your phone and tablet hardware, just like everyone else does.
-
DirectX is the industry leading multimedia API, and sets the standards for graphics quality/performance (opengl was once ok but has been trailing for many years now(theres a reason next to no commercial games use it)).
some game developers yet uses OpenGL
for ex ID software games are all OPENGL,ie quake 2, quake 3, quake 4,doom 3, wolfstein,Rage etc
Doom 4 is not out yet but will be using OpenGL ID engine 5
-
With Android you're lucky if you get one update by your manufacturer
That has to do with your carrier and the particular model phone. Google keeps releasing updates, it's up to Verizon/Sprint/T-Mobil/etc. to push them out, and there's no money in it for the carriers - they can sell more phones if they don't release the updates - hence why so many Android users are stuck on 2.3.6. Personally I have a Galaxy Nexus and have gotten all the updates, the Nexus line is "flagship" and not as limited by carriers hesitation. Also they come with a lot less bloat than other Android devices. Def. recommend.
Read the brief description here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Nexus
-
some game developers yet uses OpenGL
for ex ID software games are all OPENGL,ie quake 2, quake 3, quake 4,doom 3, wolfstein,Rage etc
Doom 4 is not out yet but will be using OpenGL ID engine 5
ID are pretty much the exception to the rule, but even Carmack admits that d3d is superior. Their software also uses DirectX for everything other than rendering anyway.
-
Microsoft's main problem is that they've been too slow to join the mobile revolution. Now that they do, all the haters scream that they're ****ed and the fanboys shout about it like it's Messiah coming down from the skies.
At the end of the day, it's just a battle between technology companies, and the tide of battle has changed direction because consumers want things as simple as possible, and they don't want to upgrade their hardware every six months.
Apple were smart enough to figure that out a few years ago, and anyone who has ever tried to teach someone else to install Windows drivers knows that this is time that people simply don't want to spend. I simply needs to work.
Windows XP had enough drivers to "just work" when it was released. Today, people are calling support lines in despair and can't understand why it doesn't just work - all the other hardware they've plugged into their 10 year-old piece of crap has always worked.
This is why the big bucks in the gaming world are coming from consoles, and why people deliberately buy tablets and large phones - they want things to be simple. Buy a phone, buy an app, do your thing. That's it.
In the future, computers will be much less diverse and much more standardized. App stores are the way of the future. Malware programmers all over the Globe has made that perfectly clear.
Personally, I'm worried about the future. With today's kids growing up with their locked down tablets the interest in computing will wane. Tomorrow's programmers will learn everything in school, and will be forced to operate with closed development kits specialized for specific platforms. Computing, as we know it, is slowly being killed off because all we need now are media consumption devices.
But hey, at least the Pi is selling well. :)
-
That has to do with your carrier and the particular model phone. Google keeps releasing updates, it's up to Verizon/Sprint/T-Mobil/etc. to push them out
I don't like the nexus hardware, no sdcard slot and worse cameras than my 2 year old phone. But each android version they push out is basically hard coded for their phones, which is why it's so hard for manufacturers to port them to last years hardware. Google change the os enough each time that you can't just use the old drivers etc.
The other manufacturers don't help as they use binary blobs for drivers that they don't update, plus they can also make changes to the os to get their drivers working. It's a major problem for someone trying to clean up the mess.
So with Android you get a choice you can either:
1. be forced to buy a nexus, which might be supported for three years (they have stopped supporting the first two already).
2. live with being stuck on the version of android the phone comes with.
3. upgrade to a cyanogenmod build for your phone that has been ported by a school kid and has drivers that crash or don't work.
I don't have the money to buy apple stuff & I don't have the money to buy a new phone when my old phone could actually run the latest software if google could get their act together.
Android has really left a bad taste in my mouth, something I've never experienced with Microsoft. Microsoft force the operators to accept updates (I think apple do too).
Androids Linux origins really show through and it's not something that works commercially.
-
I don't like the nexus hardware, no sdcard slot and worse cameras than my 2 year old phone. But each android version they push out is basically hard coded for their phones, which is why it's so hard for manufacturers to port them to last years hardware. Google change the os enough each time that you can't just use the old drivers etc.
The other manufacturers don't help as they use binary blobs for drivers that they don't update, plus they can also make changes to the os to get their drivers working. It's a major problem for someone trying to clean up the mess.
So with Android you get a choice you can either:
1. be forced to buy a nexus, which might be supported for three years (they have stopped supporting the first two already).
2. live with being stuck on the version of android the phone comes with.
3. upgrade to a cyanogenmod build for your phone that has been ported by a school kid and has drivers that crash or don't work.
I don't have the money to buy apple stuff & I don't have the money to buy a new phone when my old phone could actually run the latest software if google could get their act together.
Android has really left a bad taste in my mouth, something I've never experienced with Microsoft. Microsoft force the operators to accept updates (I think apple do too).
Androids Linux origins really show through and it's not something that works commercially.
Good luck updating your Windows Phone 7 device to WP8.
-
Android has really left a bad taste in my mouth, something I've never experienced with Microsoft. Microsoft force the operators to accept updates (I think apple do too).
Me personally, I don't have problem with my cheap Samsung still being on Android 2.3 release. It runs the apps I need.
Androids Linux origins really show through and it's not something that works commercially.
Yeah, that's why Android is on 75% of new smart phones.
-
Yeah, that's why Android is on 75% of new smart phones.
Current market share is irrelevant. The majority of people are sheep and will buy whatever you manipulate them into buying.
Android's USP is it's open, but that hasn't really delivered any benefits. It's lack of a controlling overlord has created a mess.
-
The majority of people are sheep and will buy whatever you manipulate them into buying.
Such venom! The majority of people don't really care all that much, they just want something that works (even if "works" defines a sub-optimal level of performance for us geeks), and is at a reasonable price. The huge number of available models, many of which are given away for free ("with a two year contract", yadda yadda) is moreso the fuel behind Android's growth.
-
My Galaxy S2 is currently running Android 4.3 quite nicely. It came with 2.3 IIRC and has upgraded to 4.0, 4.1, 4.2 in between with no issues.
My mate's Lumia came with Windows Phone 7 and will never be upgraded to WP8.
My next phone will hopefully be a Jolla device as I'm not tied to Android in a technical nor emotional way.
It's just a tool to get work done with. All this brand loyalty stuff is beyond me.
-
Hi,
Just going to say to all you apple fanboys, government employees own more PC's than apple will ever think of using or selling, and that isn't counting the gamers or the casual user. The only ones who use apple products are the ones that know absolutely nothing about computers. They have to call apple to find out where the on switch is at.
Having used computers since the '70's and having previously worked for a company that built 68K computer AND owning more Apples than PCs, I find this opinion uninformed and rather stupid.
Yeah, Apple makes some curious decisions.
But as pointed out (repeatedly), those of us running MorphOS on older Apples aren't particularly interested in Apple's intent.
But I will agree with Smerf on one point, Microsoft isn't going away.
-
You guys are more delusional than you think if you really believe that Microsoft has lost dominance or is "doomed". You clowns are the same people who believe that the Amiga will rise from the ashes like some sort of Phoenix to storm the world of computing once again. Keep drinking that Kool-Aid and hiding out under bridges with your Billy goats.
-
Microsoft aren't going anywhere soon they will just become a different beast than they currently are due to changing markets.
However, it is a fact that they are currently irrelevant in the mobile sector, which is the fastest growing market currently.
Maybe they will come to dominate the mobile sector but I can't see it happening myself.
-
My Galaxy S2 is currently running Android 4.3 quite nicely.
Is that official or are you just lucky that someone has managed to botch something together? Anything that has been upgraded to 4.3 without massive battery issues or crashes is very very lucky. I wonder what android phone will win the next lottery for reasonable upgrades.
We'll see how Microsoft handle upgrades moving forward, especially now they'll be controlling their own hardware as on pc's they've been very good. Having the latest OS isn't necessarily the important thing, it's that security updates will still be made. There are a huge number of android phones out there that will never get an update but have lots of security holes.
-
I compiled it myself.
That's the best feature. I can do whatever the hell I want with it. Some people don't want that, some people do. Who cares really, use what you want, everyone is different and everyone has different requirements.
I have absolutely zero need for any product MS currently have on offer, maybe in future I will, who knows? What a great thing the free market is!
-
You guys are more delusional than you think if you really believe that Microsoft has lost dominance or is "doomed". You clowns are the same people who believe that the Amiga will rise from the ashes like some sort of Phoenix to storm the world of computing once again. Keep drinking that Kool-Aid and hiding out under bridges with your Billy goats.
My God!
I really don't like this guy, but I wholly agree with him here.
Microsoft is here to stay and our OS' are relegated to hobbyist pursuits.
-
I compiled it myself.
I guess you didn't port it yourself. You're lucky someone did the work unpaid, most phones don't get anything resembling a stable port.
I currently have the choice of 4.3 with no camera light, touch screen bugs & random battery drain because google keep trying to keep devices on all the time or 4.2.2 with random reboots due to a buggy wifi driver.
For both of those google maps doesn't work well for some reason the screen just jumps around. Neither one of them supports the FM radio either. There are other bugs and missing functionality, but those are the ones that really affect me.
I could compile it myself, but it wouldn't make it any better. If you're not changing it then building it yourself is pointless.
Or I could go with the official 4.0 build, which is slow and doesn't work with BBC iPlayer. I couldn't install it officially though as sony didn't release it for unlocked phones in the UK because O2 wouldn't give them the go ahead. I assumed when I bought an unlocked phone I'd not have to worry about the operators.
-
Your personal experience is truly harrowing account and has now firmly caused me to go out and buy a Lumia tomorrow despite it not offering me a single thing I need.
-
It's horses for courses! I use Windows 7 on my desktop PC for day-to-day-stuff (seems pretty good to me), Linux on my 'private' laptop and Android ICS (stable, no system crashes) on my JXD S5110 for a bit of hand-held retro gaming fun....sweet!
I get the point that Microsoft are not as dominate as they use to be, but terminal decline???
Is this much like the recent comments from one ATARI legend who believes Nintendo are heading towards being 'irrelevant' in the console market - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23995569
-
I currently have the choice of 4.3 with no camera light, touch screen bugs & random battery drain because google keep trying to keep devices on all the time or 4.2.2 with random reboots due to a buggy wifi driver.
For both of those google maps doesn't work well for some reason the screen just jumps around. Neither one of them supports the FM radio either. There are other bugs and missing functionality, but those are the ones that really affect me.
IMHO if you're having that many problems you need to hard reset the device and start over again from scratch with a fresh install of only the core apps you use. That or buy an iPhone, because Android clearly isn't the operating system for you. ;)
-
It's just a tool to get work done with. All this brand loyalty stuff is beyond me.
Hang on... Where are we? ;) :lol:
-
I get the point that Microsoft are not as dominate as they use to be, but terminal decline???
It may indeed be a little premature for such a declaration. On the other hand, MS are quite thoroughly alienating themselves from their existing customer base in pursuit of a market that they have consistently failed to get a foothold in for well over a decade now. That's what's known in technical circles as "Wile E. Coyote sawing the tree limb out from under himself."
-
IMHO if you're having that many problems you need to hard reset the device and start over again from scratch with a fresh install of only the core apps you use. That or buy an iPhone, because Android clearly isn't the operating system for you. ;)
I already hard reset it when upgrading to 4.2.2 and then when downgrading from 4.3 to 4.2.2. If you're suggesting that I'm doing something wrong then I can point you to the bug list.
Android clearly isn't the operating system for someone that expects updates and for the updates to work. Apple seem quite good at it, but there stuff is expensive for what it is.
So I've got Microsoft and FirefoxOS to choose from. But as FirefoxOS is aiming at low end devices with rubbish cameras, it will probably be a Microsoft phone.
On the other hand, MS are quite thoroughly alienating themselves from their existing customer base in pursuit of a market that they have consistently failed to get a foothold in for well over a decade now.
They aren't alienating many people. There are some type A personalities that complain about the start screen, but most windows 8 users ignore them. The sheep might not upgrade because someone told them that they should be outraged about the start screen. Most of their existing customer base isn't about to buy a new computer or operating system anyway.
Just because they haven't managed to get a foot hold in the tablet market doesn't mean they shouldn't try. They were too expensive with their first tablets & didn't have the right UI, they do appear to have then given up at that point. That was their mistake, not trying to get into the market now.
-
I like how your argument boils down to "nobody dislikes Windows 8 except for all the people who dislike Windows 8, and they're all either haters or sheep so they don't count." Very sensible.
-
Hang on... Where are we? ;) :lol:
Last time I checked I was a heretic who preferred the alternatives to the brand name. ;)
My contract is up for renewal and it doesn't look like I'll be able to get a Jolla device so I might be tempted to get an iPhone 5 as long as I can jail break it. :)
-
I like how your argument boils down to "nobody dislikes Windows 8 except for all the people who dislike Windows 8, and they're all either haters or sheep so they don't count." Very sensible.
Yay we finally find common ground John. :D
-
I like how your argument boils down to "nobody dislikes Windows 8 except for all the people who dislike Windows 8, and they're all either haters or sheep so they don't count." Very sensible.
No my argument is that they can't be alienating the majority of their customer base because the majority of them aren't looking to buy a new OS.
The sheep hated Windows 95 because of the Start Menu when it was added. They'll hate Windows 8 because it's removed. They all come round in the end after they get over themselves. There were people who insisted that they preferred using Program Manager http://toastytech.com/guis/win95progman.png, it didn't last long though as eventually their fake outrage wasn't funny enough to justify the pain.
google has even preserved some of their indignation with Microsoft for adding the start menu for you https://groups.google.com/d/msg/microsoft.public.win95.shellui/MEBAy63Qlbc/dp23ffmNQ0gJ
People being upset about windows 8 is a non event, if you can't see that then you're ignoring history.
-
The sheep are revolting!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4PkMPAlMFo
-
The sheep hated Windows 95 because of the Start Menu when it was added. They'll hate Windows 8 because it's removed. They all come round in the end after they get over themselves. There were people who insisted that they preferred using Program Manager http://toastytech.com/guis/win95progman.png, it didn't last long though as eventually their fake outrage wasn't funny enough to justify the pain.
Okay, so we've gone from "nobody hates Windows 8 except for all the people who hate Windows 8, and they don't count" to "they don't count because of what different people thought eighteen years ago."
Convincing.
-
Okay, so we've gone from "nobody hates Windows 8 except for all the people who hate Windows 8, and they don't count" to "they don't count because of what different people thought eighteen years ago."
Convincing.
How people reacted is very relevant. Where are the huge number of people who hate the Start Menu and demanding Program Manager? The same place the people who hate the Start Screen and want the Start Menu back will end up, they'll just get over it.
You can't make progress if you worry about a few angry people.
-
Dead Dead Dead
(http://sophosnews.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/xp-rip-170.jpg)
-
I've heard Classic Shell on Sourceforge.net makes Windows 8 almost tolerable.
-
Dead Dead Dead
(http://sophosnews.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/xp-rip-170.jpg)
Problem being - Windows originally came out in 1985 (1.0)...
-
I've heard Classic Shell on Sourceforge.net makes Windows 8 almost tolerable.
I've got a dozen things in my WBStartup drawer to make AmigaOS almost tolerable, is that the same thing? ;)
j/k, no hack will resolve Windows 8's incompatibilities with certain enterprise apps (insert other long list of complaints here), so that still makes it a no-go for my company.
In a semi-related note, I do freelance IT work in addition to my main job. Just today had another customer contact me requesting to downgrade him from Windows 8 back to 7. This particular person's complaint? Jerky DVD playback with third-party applications, because Windows 8 no longer includes DVD playback capabilities as standard. I *hate* DVD's, and even I facepalmed when I saw this decision by Microsoft. :p
-
http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/Microsoft-and-Ballmer-and-Nokia-Oh-My-78901.html
-
Hack article, at best.
Elop stands a fair chance, but a shoe in? That's a real stretch.
-
Oh dear.
http://slashdot.org/story/191479
-
Oh dear.
http://slashdot.org/story/191479
At least XP still works... Though annoyingly Apple now only support Win7 in boot camp :-/
-
I've heard Classic Shell on Sourceforge.net makes Windows 8 almost tolerable.
I'll make sure not to install it, almost tolerable would be a step down for me.
Jerky DVD playback with third-party applications, because Windows 8 no longer includes DVD playback capabilities as standard. I *hate* DVD's, and even I facepalmed when I saw this decision by Microsoft. :p
DVD playback was only ever included in windows 7 home premium/ultimate/enterprise, it wasn't included in earlier versions of windows or the other windows 7 versions. IIRC Microsoft had to pay license fees which was a percentage of the cost of Windows. Lots of machines don't even have optical drives anymore & it wasn't that good either, cyberlink was always better.
It makes sense for Microsoft to drop DVD support because it isn't cost effective.
I don't miss windows media centre either, early adopters could get it for free but even that wasn't worth it for me.
-
My God!
I really don't like this guy, but I wholly agree with him here.
Microsoft is here to stay and our OS' are relegated to hobbyist pursuits.
I also think Microsoft will be here for a long time but it's also clear iOS and Android are currently in the driver's seat and Windows (Phone) needs to need run hard to catch up.
-
I'll make sure not to install it, almost tolerable would be a step down for me.
DVD playback was only ever included in windows 7 home premium/ultimate/enterprise, it wasn't included in earlier versions of windows or the other windows 7 versions. IIRC Microsoft had to pay license fees which was a percentage of the cost of Windows. Lots of machines don't even have optical drives anymore & it wasn't that good either, cyberlink was always better.
It makes sense for Microsoft to drop DVD support because it isn't cost effective.
I don't miss windows media centre either, early adopters could get it for free but even that wasn't worth it for me.
Media Center is attrocious, but all versions of Windows 7 AFAIK can play DVD's directly through Windows Media Player, I just tested it on a Windows 7 Professional box. Also for giggles I popped a DVD into a freshly installed Ubuntu 13.04 laptop I have sitting here, and the DVD began playing in the built-in "Videos" application.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Mac OS can still natively play DVD's, correct?
So it seems like Microsoft was the only major player to remove DVD playback capability from their OS and force users to have to hunt down 3rd party applications. Now mind you, I hate DVD's so really couldn't care less, but it just seems a bit... premature... to remove DVD playback, when there are still a large percentage of the population who use things like Redbox, no?
-
This all said - we have just got a new suite of MS laptops at work. Brand new high spec ones, with MS Office 2013. Office 2013 is just awful. Certainly, Microsoft remains a behemoth, but it's hard to escape how dreadful some of their major software has become, and that it's being recognised as such by people who previously didn't want to/couldn't think such things. Windows 8 is widely recognised as an update to be avoided and if it came with your new machine, something to show your friends and laugh at.
Microsoft's marketing and influence has been so pervasive that people who pointed out the company's failings in the past were aggressively shouted down (as we've seen in this thread). Whether this is a "Tyranny of the Majority" effect (read John Stuart Mill's excellent essay) or just people (consumers, businesses, governments) incapable of admitting that all the money they've given Microsoft might not actually have got them the best that money can buy, I don't know. But what we're seeing, I believe, is a shift from this for the first time. Microsoft is still massive, with a hugely dominant existing user base, but people's opinions are changing and they're going to have to work a lot harder to make this up.
-
It's just following the same pattern. Office XP - terrible. Office 2003 - great. Office 2007 - terrible. Office 2010 - great. Office 2013... you get the idea.
For laughs read some of the reviews on amazon.com. Office 2013 has close to 90% 1-star reviews, and Office 365 is even worse. :p If they don't shape up it'll be LibreOffice or Google apps after this!
PS - with your license for Office 2013 you receive downgrade rights to Office 2010, so you can run either.
-
So it seems like Microsoft was the only major player to remove DVD playback capability from their OS and force users to have to hunt down 3rd party applications.
Ok, yeah I missed that it was in professional. It's not in home basic or starter.
Microsoft always have problems when they bundle software, because of the whole monopoly thing. Apple get away with bundling a lot more because they aren't the incumbent OS. If Apple ever get the majority desktop market share then expect them to have similar issues. Compare Microsoft being sued for bundling Internet Exporer to Apple bundling safari (http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/how-can-the-eu-come-after-microsoft-for-anticompetiveness-but-apple-gets-a-pass/)
So Microsoft get pressure to drop it from Cyberlink/WinDVD, who made better products. It allowed Microsoft to reduce the price of Windows 8, which is much cheaper than Windows 7. I'd expect OEM's to bundle a player if they sell a windows 8 machine with a DVD/bluray drive (and I believe most of them do). But it makes perfect sense to me.
I think the Linux distros should also be subject to the same controls as Microsoft, if you get five free media players bundled with Linux then how is anyone ever going to compete with those. You could argue that they should get bundled too, but that misses the point of allowing competition.
-
I think the Linux distros should also be subject to the same controls as Microsoft, if you get five free media players bundled with Linux then how is anyone ever going to compete with those. You could argue that they should get bundled too, but that misses the point of allowing competition.
So you want to screw over people using a free OS by applying commercial restrictions to a non-commercial product simply for the sake of making Microsoft look less cheap for dropping something that cost them a small fraction of their sale price.
Yeah, that's totally a reasonable stance.
-
Not including DVD playback in all versions of Windows is remarkably lame.
Well, I can always fall back on XP MCE and MorphOS (my copies of both shiipped with that capability).
-
Mobile Devices
-
Mobile Devices
Cell phones?
Nah, I don't enjoy the small displays.
My iBook or a netbook (or possibly a tablet) is about as mobile as I want to go.
-
Cell phones?
Nah, I don't enjoy the small displays.
My iBook or a netbook (or possibly a tablet) is about as mobile as I want to go.
I'm talking about the masses, not us die hard computer nerds. All us sane folk were using Atari or Amiga long before Windows anyhow. :)
-
It allowed Microsoft to reduce the price of Windows 8, which is much cheaper than Windows 7.
Just FYI, see attached screenshot, made today from neweggbusiness.com. If anything Windows 7 is cheaper since they have the 3-pack option. Below this was Windows 8 home, which was retailing for $99, but I'm a business user and only buy/recommend business-class solutions.
This pretty much throws the whole argument out the window... not only is Windows 8 less capable, it costs more, too. Way to go, Microsoft! *facepalm*
Edit: haha, look at all the low reviews for Windows 8. ;)
-
So you want to screw over people using a free OS by applying commercial restrictions to a non-commercial product simply for the sake of making Microsoft look less cheap for dropping something that cost them a small fraction of their sale price.
Yeah, that's totally a reasonable stance.
It is totally reasonable to expect Apple and the Linux distros to have to adhere to the same rules as Microsoft.
It's much more reasonable than expecting them to eat the cost.
Windows 8 Pro with media centre includes DVD playback, if you're not too cheap to pay for it.
-
Having used computers since the '70's and having previously worked for a company that built 68K computer AND owning more Apples than PCs, I find this opinion uninformed and rather stupid.
Yeah, Apple makes some curious decisions.
But as pointed out (repeatedly), those of us running MorphOS on older Apples aren't particularly interested in Apple's intent.
But I will agree with Smerf on one point, Microsoft isn't going away.
@Iggy,
Having used computers since 1972, and having worked for a company that was one of the first to bring computers into existance, I find this opinion rather uninformed and filled with ignorance about the history of computers.
Yeah, apple at the start made a lot of curious decisions, and as I have always said MorphOS is a rather expensive emulation of the Amiga computer system.
BUT
I will agree with Iggy on one point, Micro shaft isn't going away.
best regards Iggy, glad to see your up to your old self.
smerf
-
You guys are more delusional than you think if you really believe that Microsoft has lost dominance or is "doomed". You clowns are the same people who believe that the Amiga will rise from the ashes like some sort of Phoenix to storm the world of computing once again. Keep drinking that Kool-Aid and hiding out under bridges with your Billy goats.
Hi,
You never know, maybe some billionaire will see the enthusiastic crowd for the Amiga computer, and donate a billion or two, to get it going again, but then again not to many billionaire's will want to buy Amiga, after all it carries the Amiga curse, that who ever owns the rights to said Amiga computer will go bankrupt. There isn't any billionaires that would take a challenge like this.
And besides if Amiga did come back out, Micro soft will surely go out of business, and so would rotten core Apple.
-
It is totally reasonable to expect Apple and the Linux distros to have to adhere to the same rules as Microsoft.
It's much more reasonable than expecting them to eat the cost.
Well, uh, is Apple not subject to the rules? AFAIK they still ship a DVD player with OSX, but is there any indication that they're not paying the requisite licensing fees for the technology? Because let's be entirely clear here, Microsoft deliberately dropped DVD playback to avoid having to pay those fees, not because of some mean ol' court order that says they aren't allowed to have useful features in their OS or anything.
(Also, can you provide a source for your claim that their move had to do with pressure from CyberLink? I'm turning up articles where CyberLink attributes a boost in sales to Windows 8 having dropped its native DVD support, but I'm not seeing anything about them having been a party to that decision.)
As for Linux: no. A non-commercial venture is not subject to the restrictions a commercial one faces because it is non-commercial. If Microsoft didn't want to make money off Windows they could indulge just as freely. That is how patent laws work. Your idea that Microsoft is somehow entitled to a "level playing field" against a project maintained by independent developers and non-profits and given away for free is simply ludicrous, and again goes to show (like your claims in another thread (http://amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=712243#post712243) that forcing locked-down software distribution is necessary because not forcing it is somehow "subsidizing open-source") that your basic philosophy is "everybody who doesn't like Microsoft's new direction can get bent, end of debate."
-
I've never really understood how Linux gets away with free DVD playback
-
Simple: non-commercial projects are exempt from a lot of restrictions like patents, and Linux is largely non-commercial. (I'm not sure what enterprise vendors like Red Hat do - do they not ship DVD players? Pay licensing fees? I dunno.)
-
Simple: non-commercial projects are exempt from a lot of restrictions like patents
That's not true at all.
-
Simple: non-commercial projects are exempt from a lot of restrictions like patents, and Linux is largely non-commercial.
I doubt that: on the face of it, if I take somebody's work which they derive a living from and give it away for free for others to use, I may not make money from it, but I am still aiding in depriving the owner of the work some of the proceeds they are entitled to for their efforts.
-
Easy answer really, Google and Apple :)
-
LOL, I don't think anyone will be taking advantage of this offer.
http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/09/12/microsoft-starts-buying-used-ipads-for-200-microsoft-store-gift-cards-pushes-surface
-
I've never really understood how Linux gets away with free DVD playback
They don't come with DVD playback, the user has to install a codec or standalone player like VLC to enable it. Same as Win8.
-
LOL, I don't think anyone will be taking advantage of this offer.
http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/09/12/microsoft-starts-buying-used-ipads-for-200-microsoft-store-gift-cards-pushes-surface
Yes, folks, they're paying people to buy a Surface. Oy gevalt. Seriously, Microsoft, just take a mulligan on this tablet thing already.
-
MS dropped it because it wasn't worth the additional expense it tacked onto things, which they had to pass on to the consumer. Optical media is going the way of the dodo, anyways. Keeping it around would have prevented them from the super cheap ($40) W8 upgrade offerings they were making. You can still get it in Media Center editions or via upgrade if you absolutely need it. Most don't. With Mac's, you're lucky if they even offer an optical drive on them these days. The current iMac has no optical drive at all, unless you want to go for an optional external one.
John, your statements about Linux are simply not correct. Install Ubuntu and you'd also find out it's missing it as well. Linux distros cannot simply chuck in proprietary software that otherwise needs to be licensed because they aren't charging for a distro. It's not a charity mission when it comes to intellectual property.
Install VLC or something. Problem solved.
-
Microsoft deliberately dropped DVD playback to avoid having to pay those fees
That was definitely one of the reasons and it's a really justifiable one.
FWIW the free Linux DVD players aren't paying for a license (because they are cheap too)
Let us be clear, you can't possibly know whether Microsoft were threatened to drop DVD playback. I was merely showing that Apple bundling everything with the OS while Microsoft getting hassle was a real thing & therefore comparing Windows & MacOS like that is like breaking someones leg and then punishing them for not being able to run a marathon.
Your ability to troll is wasted here.
John, your statements about Linux are simply not correct. Install Ubuntu and you'd also find out it's missing it as well. Linux distros cannot simply chuck in proprietary software that otherwise needs to be licensed because they aren't charging for a distro. It's not a charity mission when it comes to intellectual property.
Ubuntu might not bundle it, but there is unlicensed DVD player software out there. Linux users tend to think that everything is owed to them, IMO they are worse than people who pirate windows.
Simple: non-commercial projects are exempt from a lot of restrictions like patents, and Linux is largely non-commercial. (I'm not sure what enterprise vendors like Red Hat do - do they not ship DVD players? Pay licensing fees? I dunno.)
They aren't exempt, it's just with non-commercial projects there isn't anyone worth suing.
Yes, folks, they're paying people to buy a Surface. Oy gevalt. Seriously, Microsoft, just take a mulligan on this tablet thing already.
Do you realise your righteous indignation makes you sound like a git?
-
ubuntu might not bundle it, but there is dvd player software out there that is illegal in the usa and some other countries but completely legal in some others. There are fully licenced proprietary linux dvd players available for those who live in the usa.
ftfy.
http://www.cyberlink.com/eng/press_room/view_1849.html
http://www.fluendo.com/shop/product/fluendo-dvd-player/
I should also mention that the exact same DVD players that are available for Linux are available for users of Windows in those countries outside the USA. (VLC, MPlayer, FFMPEG, libdvdcss etc)
http://www.videolan.org/legal.html
-
Read a book on all the Windows 8 secret functions... Suddenly it becomes an interesting OS. MS shouldn't have to force everyone to get a more bloated OS, because most people just don't need to upgrade.
The problem is that you are forced to have it pre-installed on a new system.
If you want to downgrade I am pretty sure the Win8 serials work for Win7. Dig around for a link from MSDN.
The mobile market sickens me. There is no innovation there. Just bigger, faster etc. to sell more devices.
Problems like: Your battery will last two hours in use, but then the competing model will have the same problem.
-
Read a book on all the Windows 8 secret functions... Suddenly it becomes an interesting OS. MS shouldn't have to force everyone to get a more bloated OS, because most people just don't need to upgrade.
The problem is that you are forced to have it pre-installed on a new system.
If you want to downgrade I am pretty sure the Win8 serials work for Win7. Dig around for a link from MSDN.
The mobile market sickens me. There is no innovation there. Just bigger, faster etc. to sell more devices.
Problems like: Your battery will last two hours in use, but then the competing model will have the same problem.
Thus sayeth the Devil Chicken and verily it is most true.
Two hours if you are lucky.
And people wonder why I still use a regular cell phone.
My battery stays charge for about a week.
I really like the Galaxy S4, but its not that practical as a phone.
I use my phone to call people, not run applications.
Those, I'll run on a small notebook or tablet.
-
That was definitely one of the reasons and it's a really justifiable one.
I'm not arguing that. It's their decision, and while I think it was a stupid one, it's not fundamentally wrong.
Let us be clear, you can't possibly know whether Microsoft were threatened to drop DVD playback. I was merely showing that Apple bundling everything with the OS while Microsoft getting hassle was a real thing & therefore comparing Windows & MacOS like that is like breaking someones leg and then punishing them for not being able to run a marathon.
I can't possibly know? Since when was I the one claiming that? You openly claimed (http://amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=747775&postcount=69) that Microsoft dropped DVD playback in response to pressure by other vendors - I'm asking if you have a source for that.
Your ability to troll is wasted here.
My ability to troll is never wasted.
Do you realise your righteous indignation makes you sound like a git?
Do you think I care?
(Also, that wasn't even righteous indignation, that was exhausted disgust.)
-
They don't come with DVD playback, the user has to install a codec or standalone player like VLC to enable it. Same as Win8.
Ubuntu 13.04 can play DVD's using it's built-in "Videos" application, no 3rd party software or additional downloads required. Don't believe me? I just did it, fresh install of Ubuntu only a couple days old. I'd be glad to shoot you a video. Although if someone really wanted to watch a lot of movies on any system, I'd still recommend VLC.
My only point in bringing this up was, that if someone buys a new computer out of the box, someone who doesn't know a whole lot about computers (unlike everyone on this forum obviously, yadda yadda), and see the label for DVD on the drive, pop in a disc... they should be able to play it with no hassle. This is just such a basic feature these days that everyone expects to be able to do it without having to think about it, ya know?
Anyhow, carry on with your other arguments now. ;)
-
...carry on with your other arguments now. ;)
+1 :hammer:
Thanks for the news about Ubuntu Mike.
It used to be my favorite linux distro.
I'll have to check it out again.
-
Ubuntu downloaded and installed the DVD playing codec when you ticked the box to install third party codecs during the installation wizard.
As you are in the USA you broke the law you naughty boy. ;)
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyxLGSMtqtM :D
-
I just bought a camera that runs Jelly Bean. It's kind of neat to SSH into work or play Angry Birds on my camera....
-
I can't possibly know? Since when was I the one claiming that? You openly claimed (http://amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=747775&postcount=69) that Microsoft dropped DVD playback in response to pressure by other vendors - I'm asking if you have a source for that.
No, I didn't openly claim that. I said that comparing Windows with MacOS on bundled software was flawed because Apple don't get sued while Microsoft do.
You obviously are exhausted as you can't even troll effectively anymore.
My only point in bringing this up was, that if someone buys a new computer out of the box, someone who doesn't know a whole lot about computers (unlike everyone on this forum obviously, yadda yadda), and see the label for DVD on the drive, pop in a disc... they should be able to play it with no hassle. This is just such a basic feature these days that everyone expects to be able to do it without having to think about it, ya know?
Everytime I go to an ATM and insert my card there is money available, it's such a basic feature that I expect the money to be available without having to think about it. I opened a new bank account and the ATM won't give me any money, why doesn't it give me yours?
Or in other words why should everyone subsidise a feature in Windows that the majority of people don't use? Just because some users are too dumb? If they buy the version of Windows without the DVD player then it's their own fault.
-
This pretty much throws the whole argument out the window... not only is Windows 8 less capable, it costs more, too. Way to go, Microsoft! *facepalm*
It's not less capable, you can buy a copy of Windows that includes DVD playback. It appears that Microsoft increased the price of Windows 8 in February, you should have bought it sooner.
-
No, I didn't openly claim that. I said that comparing Windows with MacOS on bundled software was flawed because Apple don't get sued while Microsoft do.
You obviously are exhausted as you can't even troll effectively anymore.
I won't dispute that it can get exhausting dealing with you and your "everything Microsoft does is perfection and wonder!!! Anyone who doesn't like it is just a hater!" nonsense. However:
So Microsoft get pressure to drop it from Cyberlink/WinDVD, who made better products.
This is what you said in a post that you made which I have now linked to twice. Its meaning is not changed by its context. Did you or did you not mean what this sentence says? If you did, can you provide a source?
-
It's not less capable, you can buy a copy of Windows that includes DVD playback. It appears that Microsoft increased the price of Windows 8 in February, you should have bought it sooner.
You've completely missed the point. In the face of rampant criticism (and I don't mean just on this forum - look at the thousands of reviews on any major website you care to google) one of the few options Microsoft has is to slash prices... which is exactly what they've been doing with the Surface lately... but instead they chose to raise prices? That's why the *facepalm*. Ah, nevermind. I give up. And as for "should have bought it sooner", yeahhhh, no. :p
-
That's why the *facepalm*. Ah, nevermind. I give up.
I'd take your point more seriously without the pantomime.
If you can't make you point without LOLing, facepalming etc then don't bother.
-
People wouldn't facepalm so much if you didn't make them.
-
I won't dispute that it can get exhausting dealing with you and your "everything Microsoft does is perfection and wonder!!! Anyone who doesn't like it is just a hater!" nonsense. However:
This is what you said in a post that you made which I have now linked to twice. Its meaning is not changed by its context. Did you or did you not mean what this sentence says? If you did, can you provide a source?
I never said that everything Microsoft did was 100% perfection. I only ever mention Windows here at all because you repeatedly say that everything that Microsoft does is 100% pure evil.
It's obvious that cyberlink and windvd would be unhappy about windows 7 supporting dvd playback. But no I don't have any recordings of phone calls or copies of confidential emails that can prove that to you. However there is plenty of evidence that shows that when Microsoft bundle anything that the software industry already supplies then they get sued. It could be that they removed DVD playback purely to annoy you, because it's funny watching you get wound up. They said it was the license cost, but I think they are lying.
The irony is that a lot of the user base doesn't care about the cost of windows 8 or whether it includes dvd playback, because if you pirate windows 8 then you may as well also pirate powerdvd.
-
I'd take your point more seriously without the pantomime.
If you can't make you point without LOLing, facepalming etc then don't bother.
Clearly you are a towering juggernaut of intellectual activity. If my "pantomime" is so much below you, then please ignore it in the future. I'll do the same for your posts also, since you don't really seem to contribute anything to the subjects that actually interest me in this forum. Life is too short. Have a nice day!
-
I never said that everything Microsoft did was 100% perfection. I only put mention them at all because you repeatedly say that everything that Microsoft does is 100% pure evil.
Perhaps in whatever parallel dimension you're posting from I say that, but here in the real world I've repeatedly said that I find Microsoft's technical underpinnings to be generally excellent and Windows XP to be a fine operating system all-around, and far prefer it to either OSX or Linux, and that my chief problem with the whole Windows 8 project is their getting away from what they're actually good at to chase a trend they've been failing at for over a decade.
I'm not quite sure how that equals "they're pure evil."
I mean what the sentence says, you don't get the importance of the word So.
No, evidently I don't. Could you clarify?
Edit: oh, you did:
It's obvious that cyberlink and windvd would be unhappy about windows 7 supporting dvd playback. But no I don't have any recordings of phone calls or copies of confidential emails that can prove that to you. However there is plenty of evidence that shows that when Microsoft bundle anything that the software industry already supplies then they get sued. I assumed you'd realize that.
So no, you don't have any evidence at all that what you claimed happened actually happened, other than comparing it to that one time twelve years ago that they got in trouble for bundling IE because Netscape went crying to the government about it - and they've kept bundling IE ever since, along with an assload of other software, and had how many other such instances, exactly?
-
other than comparing it to that one time twelve years ago that they got in trouble for bundling IE because Netscape went crying to the government about it
Microsoft were sued in 2009 and 2013 because of IE. They were sued in 2003 for windows media player. There are plenty other examples I can pull out if you want to feel more wrong.
along with an assload of other software, and had how many other such instances, exactly?
Do you mean like messenger & movie maker that they stopped bundling and moved into windows live essentials?
-
Linux users tend to think that everything is owed to them, IMO they are worse than people who pirate windows.
I, as with probably a lot of other open source proponents, find it an abomination of the patent system that if you own a legal DVD drive and a legally bought DVD it is still illegal to program an open source DVD player.
Important difference.
-
Thus sayeth the Devil Chicken and verily it is most true.
Two hours if you are lucky.
And people wonder why I still use a regular cell phone.
My battery stays charge for about a week.
I really like the Galaxy S4, but its not that practical as a phone.
I use my phone to call people, not run applications.
Those, I'll run on a small notebook or tablet.
Yeah Man,
Iggy finally something you and I agree upon, a phone is used for yakking, and a computer or tablet is used for hacking. Alright I like it.
-
@Oldsmobile Mike,
[someone who doesn't know a whole lot about computers (unlike everyone on this forum obviously, yadda yadda)]
LOL, you really are a comic, where do you come up with lines like this.
Are you talking about Apple Users, knowing a lot about computers, they are still looking for the on/off switch.
Oh God, I am laughing so hard I can't breathe, cut me some slack. I think I am having a heart attack, does not compute. Oh man I just puked.
smerf
-
It's just following the same pattern. Office XP - terrible. Office 2003 - great. Office 2007 - terrible. Office 2010 - great. Office 2013... you get the idea.
For laughs read some of the reviews on amazon.com. Office 2013 has close to 90% 1-star reviews, and Office 365 is even worse. :p If they don't shape up it'll be LibreOffice or Google apps after this!
PS - with your license for Office 2013 you receive downgrade rights to Office 2010, so you can run either.
@Oldsmobile Mike,
Have been using Open Office for the past 6 months very heavy, used base to make a home inventory database with pictures, found out that once you add pictures, base becomes very unstable. At least that is what I am getting on three different computers using 3 different OS's,
first OS is windlows 7 seems to drop lines of data randomly,
Linux Mint same here,
Windows 8 same here
therefore I can come to the conclusion that Open Office base has a few bugs in it.
Have 55 Items installed in base, have to compare line numbers with now get this, see if you can remember this program.
Amiga Softwood File IIsg.
Have to take the high quality pictures down to 320 x 200 GIF using gimp, then I transfer the pictures by a rewritable CD to my Amiga 4000 where I use Image Studio to transfer the GIF image to iff - ilbm ham6 mode. I retype the info off my Windows 8 machine since it sits side by side with my Amiga and then reinstall the picture, there probably is a way to transfer the data to, but I am repairing several Amiga's right now and haven't had any time to really play (1 A4000, 2 A3000, 2 A500's, 5 CD32 motherboards, and 1 SX-1 which lost its hard drive capability repairing the 5 CD32 cards, Hey sheet happens. Oh yeah and let me not forget, what I am really torqued about, my A1200 that has some bent pins in the pcmcia port when I got in a hurry trying to transfer Softwood File II sg to it.) :-(
Now one thing I have done was put a copy of Amiga Forever and one Flash Drive out in the garage to keep a backup of my Home Inventory data on it. This flash drive has a copy of Open Office on it, and a copy of my data on it, so if the house burns down, the data is safe in my separate garage. I also have one copy in my truck which never gets parked in the garage but rather in front of the house.
Why Amiga Forever, because MorphOS won't run Softwood File II sg, (oh I can see all the MorphOS fanboys start working on this one), no but really, PC's are used in 98% of the Insurance companies today which will run Open Office or Amiga Forever which runs Softwood File II sg.
Why do a Home Inventory data base, to put it simply all insurance companies are nothing but legal crooks, they take your money then give you a hassle when it is time for you to put in a claim. When I was moving I rented a storage shed to put my stuff in while looking for a house, someone broke in and stole my stuff, when we totaled everything up, it came close to $22,000 worth of stuff. All my Ham radio equipment, my electronic repair equipment, computers, stereo equipment, camera's, video equipment ( I used to tape weddings, parties etc. using a video toaster) and all my good furniture. Luckily a lot of my stuff was in the apartment we were renting while looking for a house.
so for the long winded boring junk, but read and heed, the legal crooks gave us more of a hassle then the real crooks, the insurance company was going to take us to court on charges for falsifying an insurance claim, luckily the Police caught him and returned 70% of my stuff, about 30% gone and missing, you know the stuff they could pawn off real quick.
take if for what it is.
smerf
-
I, as with probably a lot of other open source proponents, find it an abomination of the patent system that if you own a legal DVD drive and a legally bought DVD it is still illegal to program an open source DVD player.
Important difference.
@Fats,
It isn't the DVD player, it is the copyright on the program that Micro Soft got the computing world to accept and use. It seems that they all bought certain lines of code that Micro Soft has patents on, that is why you can't watch legally bought movies on your DVD player, but if you record a home movie you will have no problem playing it on any open sourced system.
If you want to watch your store bought movie you will just have to buy a DVD player that has Micro Soft codecs installed in them, if you search the Net you can buy the code legally for your needs, or if your like me, you can search the internet and watch your movies using your Micro Soft tainted DVD player that you just purchased from Amazon.
smerf
-
Smerf - MS isn't the one omitting their own patented technology, if they owned the tech behind it it wouldn't cost them a dime to provide it. They don't own it. They have to pay to include it just like any other company. They left it out of Windows 8 (the dvd play ability) so they would not have to license the tech and pass the costs onto the consumer.
It's patented and not by MS, and no one is stopping you from installing a third party codec or app to play them - many of which say "to hell with the license fees!" and essentially break the law. MS doesn't have that luxury.
Again, VLC works a treat.
Not sure where you are getting the idea it's MS screwing the customer or community - they simply don't own the patents for the technology, and therefore would have to license them and pass on the costs. It's simply not worth doing when watching DVD's on a PC is going the way of the dodo in this age of Netflix and Hulu.
I haven't bought nor built a PC in like 5 years that even had an optical drive, so I certainly don't miss it, but YMMV. The last optical media I purchased for sole computer use was Simply Accounting - in 2006 or so.
-
Microsoft were sued in 2009 and 2013 because of IE. They were sued in 2003 for windows media player. There are plenty other examples I can pull out if you want to feel more wrong.
Ah yes, I'd forgotten about the EU and their lawsuit-happy ways. But I'd "feel more wrong" if I'd actually said there weren't any other times instead of asking whether you were referring to any other instances. But, you know, go ahead and keep responding to what you imagine it is that I'm saying. It's kind of fun seeing what the alternate-universe me who hates Microsoft and loves Linux thinks about this.
And oh, by the way: still no actual evidence whatsoever that what you claim happened happened.
-
Smerf - MS isn't the one omitting their own patented technology, if they owned the tech behind it it wouldn't cost them a dime to provide it. They don't own it. They have to pay to include it just like any other company. They left it out of Windows 8 (the dvd play ability) so they would not have to license the tech and pass the costs onto the consumer.
It's patented and not by MS, and no one is stopping you from installing a third party codec or app to play them - many of which say "to hell with the license fees!" and essentially break the law. MS doesn't have that luxury.
Again, VLC works a treat.
Not sure where you are getting the idea it's MS screwing the customer or community - they simply don't own the patents for the technology, and therefore would have to license them and pass on the costs. It's simply not worth doing when watching DVD's on a PC is going the way of the dodo in this age of Netflix and Hulu.
I haven't bought nor built a PC in like 5 years that even had an optical drive, so I certainly don't miss it, but YMMV. The last optical media I purchased for sole computer use was Simply Accounting - in 2006 or so.
@duce,
Hmmm I always thought that the evil empire had control, but according to this article from ZDnet they don't, Amazing and not Amiga either.
Microsoft announced this week that Windows 8 will not support playback of DVD movies unless you explicitly add software that supports that feature.
The economic reasons for doing so are compelling (see Microsoft's follow-up FAQ for details), but it’s also a potentially disruptive move for some Windows enthusiasts. So it’s not surprising that some of the initial reactions have been heated and even angry.
I look at the big numbers and walk through the math in a follow-up post; How much do DVD and digital media playback features really cost?
But I wanted to interrupt the discussion here to answer a question that several people have asked.
“Microsoft says the cost of DVD playback adds up to several dollars,” the argument goes. “But I can download the VLC player for Windows and get DVD playback for free. How come VLC can do it and Microsoft can’t?”
Welcome to the wonderful world of software licensing, where today we get to see a real-world example of the differences between commercial software and free software published under an open source license.
Any commercial product—hardware or software—that plays back DVDs has to have a license to a handful of software components that are protected by patents. In particular, you need access to the following:
•An MPEG-2 decoder. The licensing rights for the MPEG-2 standard are made up of a pool of patents contributed by their inventors. The pool itself is managed by MPEG LA, which collects and distributes royalties on behalf of the patent owners, under a master license agreement. Those rights cost $2 per device. The maker of a cheap DVD player sold at Costco pays $2 per unit for the MPEG-2 rights. Microsoft pays An OEM PC maker who licenses Windows from Microsoft must pay $2 in MPEG-2 licensing fees to enable DVD playback in every copy of Windows 7 Home Premium, Professional, and Ultimate. [Edited to clarify payment requirements]
•Dolby Digital audio support. This decoder, which is required for DVD movie playback, has to be licensed from Dolby Laboratories, Inc. The licensing schedule isn’t public, but in its annual report for 2011 Dolby revealed that it collected $124 million in licensing fees from Microsoft for the year, with most of that revenue generated from Windows 7. My back-of-the-envelope calculations suggest that Dolby gets at least 50 cents and as much as a dollar for every Windows PC sold.
Microsoft, Apple, Panasonic, Sony, Samsung, and other companies that make DVD players (hardware and software) have to pay those license fees for every unit they deliver to a customer, which is why you don’t see very many free DVD players.
The noteworthy exception is the VLC media player, which proudly bills itself as “a free and open source cross-platform multimedia player and framework.” It explicitly lists DVD as a supported format.
How can that be?
Well, on its “Legal concerns” page the makers of VLC open with a proud declaration: “VideoLAN is an organization based in France,” and “French law … is the only one to be applicable.”
If you skip to the bottom of the English portion of the page, you see why that matters. This is VideoLAN's argument:
Patents and codec licenses Neither French law nor European conventions recognize software as patentable (see French section below).
Therefore, software patents licenses do not apply on VideoLAN software.
The two software libraries that enable DVD and Blu-ray playback in VLC are libdvdcss and libaacs, both of which get their own legal justifications (the bold-faced words are in the original):
libdvdcss is a library that can find and guess keys from a DVD in order to decrypt it.
This method is authorized by a French law decision CE 10e et 9e sous*?#@*sect., 16 juillet 2008, n° 301843 on interoperability.
NB: In the USA, you should check out the US Copyright Office decision that allows circumvention in some cases.
VideoLAN is NOT a US-based organization and is therefore outside US juridiction. [sic]
[…]
libaacs is a research project and has an interoperability purpose (see above point).
Moreover, libaacs DOES NOT provide any decryption key. It is based on the official public AACS specification only.
Update: Via Twitter, VideoLAN notes that "libaacs is not yet shipped with VLC. We are waiting for remarks from the French DRM authority." Their comments include a link to this article (English translation).
I’m sure if one were to ask a lawyer for one of the patent holders in the MPEG-2 or AACS pools, one would get a very spirited argument about the validity of those arguments. That argument would probably invoke the anti-circumvention provisions of the United States' Digital Millennium Copyright Act. But VLC can get away with it primarily because it is a nonprofit organization based outside the reach of the United States legal system and not worth pursuing.
A maker of commercial DVD playback hardware or software would be sued in a heartbeat if they tried to distribute products based on those freeware projects. They’d also run afoul of the General Public License if they tried to include the code in their closed-source, commercial products.
But the VLC project is hardly a rogue player. In fact, as I noted in a 2010 post, Microsoft has provided financial support for VLC:
Anyone can write a media player for Windows and can build in support for whatever media formats they want. No one is “required” to use Windows Media Player—exactly the opposite....
One alternative is VLC, which I have praised before.... In an e-mail to me, one of the core developers of VLC specifically praised Microsoft last year for its assistance, noting that “Microsoft … funded our Windows 7 compatibility program participation.”
Any OEM that includes a DVD player in a new Windows 8 PC will undoubtedly include a licensed DVD Player, such as the Metro version of PowerDVD that CyberLink announced at CES earlier this year. (If PowerDVD is smart, they'll include both the Metro and desktop versions with Windows 8.) You’ll also have an assortment of commercial programs to choose from.
The good news is that as a consumer you can count on the continued availability of VLC as a free DVD (and Blu-ray) playback alternative if you don’t want to pay for the Media Center Pack. And the project continues to evolve. Earlier this week, VideoLAN boasted via its official Twitter account: "by the time Windows 8 is out, we will have even better Blu-Ray support!"
So now I see says the blind smerf
by the way "This article was taken from ZDnet, it explains it all, if it isn't legal, then erase this post.
smerf
-
@smerf
Use LibreOffice instead of OpenOffice, it's much better.
http://www.libreoffice.org
-
ftfy.
http://www.cyberlink.com/eng/press_room/view_1849.html
http://www.fluendo.com/shop/product/fluendo-dvd-player/
I should also mention that the exact same DVD players that are available for Linux are available for users of Windows in those countries outside the USA. (VLC, MPlayer, FFMPEG, libdvdcss etc)
http://www.videolan.org/legal.html
I'll take your silence as agreement psxphill.
-
But I'd "feel more wrong" if I'd actually said there weren't any other times instead of asking whether you were referring to any other instances.
Stop backtracking. Your justification was that it was all that time ago, you weren't taking into account that it was recent. Although being along time ago is still relevant.
I'll take your silence as agreement psxphill.
You can take my silence as having a life outside here.
They claim that Fluendo is licensed, I don't know how many they sold.
Patents and codec licenses Neither French law nor European conventions recognize software as patentable (see French section below).
Well that isn't entirely true http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patents_under_the_European_Patent_Convention
Whether they are breaking the law is irrelevant, it's likely that nobody will sue them (after the decss situation and they probably don't have much money). However it's likely that Microsoft would get sued if they tried the same thing.
Even if it's true, I believe VideoLAN have a responsibility to make sure that their software isn't exported into a country where the patents are valid.
I, as with probably a lot of other open source proponents, find it an abomination of the patent system that if you own a legal DVD drive and a legally bought DVD it is still illegal to program an open source DVD player.
Important difference.
That is because the DVD drive manufacturers don't pay for a license to play DVD video. Are you saying that all DVD drives should have to have a license?
What you're suggesting is that no patents should be valid because if you buy the parts to make something legally then anything you make shouldn't be able to violate a patent.
So I don't see your important difference.
It isn't the DVD player, it is the copyright on the program that Micro Soft got the computing world to accept and use.
Microsoft aren't involved, it's not a copyright issue. I believe there is a trademark issue with saying that your software plays DVD Video, a patent issue and they tried to claim a DMCA issue but lost (they haven't tried in the EU where the EUCD which is way worse than the DMCA is in effect).
FWIW without these people investing a lot of money in developing DVD's, you wouldn't actually be able to buy them and play them. They did it on the understanding that they would get a return from the licensing fees & trademark/copyright/patent law is supposed to be there to protect them.
since you don't really seem to contribute anything to the subjects that actually interest me in this forum.
Does that mean you don't have an interest in this topic? Because as far as I can tell I am contributing to the discussion. If you only see brown nosing sycophants as a contributing then your attitude starts to make sense.
-
You can take my silence as having a life outside here.
Sure.
More like you talked a load of bollox as usual, don't let silly little things like facts get in the way though.
-
I know it was the old Oracle worries but splitting the effort across two office suites was really not smart. Apache's Open Office and Free Software Foundations LibreOffice are based on the same buggy code and now they have double the work to fix it.
@smerf
Use LibreOffice instead of OpenOffice, it's much better.
http://www.libreoffice.org
-
Stop backtracking. Your justification was that it was all that time ago, you weren't taking into account that it was recent. Although being along time ago is still relevant.
"Your justification is irrelevant except for its actually being relevant!"
Whatever. Got any actual evidence yet?
-
Sure.
More like you talked a load of bollox as usual, don't let silly little things like facts get in the way though.
You don't believe I have been out all day and have just returned? You have serious mental health issues.
Whatever
No, not whatever. You lied.
So no, you don't have any evidence at all that what you claimed happened actually happened, other than comparing it to that one time twelve years ago that they got in trouble for bundling IE because Netscape went crying to the government about it - and they've kept bundling IE ever since, along with an assload of other software, and had how many other such instances, exactly?
Ah yes, I'd forgotten about the EU and their lawsuit-happy ways. But I'd "feel more wrong" if I'd actually said there weren't any other times instead of asking whether you were referring to any other instances.
Maybe you should feel more wrong now.
"That one time" means "there weren't any other times".
-
ou don't believe I have been out all day and have just returned? You have serious mental health issues.
I believe that you are an arrogant prick who is unable to respond to his lies being corrected by facts without restoring to ad-hominem attacks to deflect from his own obvious failings.
Please don't speak to me again.
-
No, not whatever. You lied.
Maybe you should feel more wrong now.
"That one time" means "there weren't any other times".
Eh. Even if I had lied instead of simply having forgotten, that would, as they say, just make two of us. I mean, at least I just forgot and didn't invent a conspiracy out of whole cloth with no supporting evidence whatsoever to explain something that's far more easily explained as a simple cost-cutting measure.
-
Eh. Even if I had lied instead of simply having forgotten, that would, as they say, just make two of us. I mean, at least I just forgot and didn't invent a conspiracy out of whole cloth with no supporting evidence whatsoever to explain something that's far more easily explained as a simple cost-cutting measure.
I provided a lot of reasons why I believe Microsoft received pressure to drop DVD support. You might think it's a conspiracy theory, but to me it would seem unlikely that WinDVD or Cyberlink wouldn't try getting Microsoft to remove it when other companies have been so successful when they did it. I never disputed that it was also a cost cutting measure.
Are you saying you made an incorrect statement by accident or were you aware that what you said wasn't true?
-
I provided a lot of reasons why I believe Microsoft received pressure to drop DVD support. You might think it's a conspiracy theory, but to me it would seem unlikely that WinDVD or Cyberlink wouldn't try getting Microsoft to remove it when other companies have been so successful when they did it. I never disputed that it was also a cost cutting measure.
Whether it seems likely to you or not, you still made the claim that it happened without having any evidence that it did, in fact, happen. Not that "I would bet that maybe" or "I kind of suspect that," you claimed that that actually happened, even though you admit that you have no evidence at all to support that.
Tell me again, which of us is lying?
Are you saying you made an incorrect statement by accident or were you aware that what you said wasn't true?
I quite clearly said that I made an incorrect statement by accident (on account of having forgotten.)
-
What you're suggesting is that no patents should be valid because if you buy the parts to make something legally then anything you make shouldn't be able to violate a patent.
No, what I am saying is that the right to play back a DVD should be included when buy the DVD and playback should not be restrictred by software patents. Software patents are an abomination of the patent system.
-
Agreed.
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02630/ugly-blobfish_2630737b.jpg)
-
No, please, don't force me to read 9 pages of discussions just to understand how the topic turned from "what's behind Microsoft's fall from dominance" and "the right to play back a DVD should be included when buy the DVD and playback should not be restrictred by software patents". It would be overkill ;-)
Anyway, back to original topic, I don't think there's a fall from dominance by Microsoft. It just happens that a NEW market, different than PC ones, has born in the meanwhile, and Microsoft didn't pay enough attention to its future relevance. Result is that Microsoft is still absolutely dominant in the PC *and* server market, although in the new, different MOBILE market its competition to Google and Apple has just begun. I wouldn't underestimate Microsoft here, though: I already know some people switching from iOS to Android to Windows Phone, and all of them agree the last one is the stablest among the three. This trend may diffuse if vendors of Android phones won't stop kidding with customers and decide to upgrade their products in a better way. Microsoft also bought Nokia, which in the past was the best seller competitor in the cellphone market, so they have all the know-how they need to succeed again. In a nutshell: Microsoft's fortunes might have been built on questionable marketing behaviors in the past, but they had many success stories and made many mistakes to learn from. I wouldn't bet Google and Apple share the same valuable experiences, even if they had a glorious histery behind them.
All in all, we're still at the beginning of a new era, and it's good to see all that competition that was just driven out from the computer market long ago. It will bring customers better products after all.
-
I believe that you are an arrogant prick who is unable to respond to his lies being corrected by facts without restoring to ad-hominem attacks to deflect from his own obvious failings.
Please don't speak to me again.
Good, hopefully that means you won't start trolling or insulting me again.
All I got to do now is stop commodorejohn from doing the same and this place will be good again.
No, what I am saying is that the right to play back a DVD should be included when buy the DVD and playback should not be restrictred by software patents. Software patents are an abomination of the patent system.
Well that would be new, because VCR's, tape players etc were all covered in patents that manufacturers had to license. Software feels different because once you've made it once the cost to reproduce it are lower. But someone fitting algorithms together and designing structures has a right to patent their work, whether that is created in software or hardware.
-
If Microsoft is suffering a "fall from dominance", I wish I'd experience a fall from dominance of their caliber with my own business.
MS did EIGHTEEN BILLION DOLLARS+ in one quarter in revenue (period ending June 30, 2012). In one quarter of a year, folks.
If that's failure, most people would give their eye teeth to experience a failure of that caliber. They are making money hand over fist, and it'll be a long time before Enterprise weans itself off MS product - if they ever do.
Honestly makes me giggle how people figure MS make the lions share profits wise off the consumer market on their products. Enterprise and Office sales make up the bulk of their revenue - they make millions of dollars a day off enterprise and/or Office suite sales, and their cloud offerings are really picking up steam and is one of the most increasingly profitable arms of the corporation growth wise. Office 365 and Azure are great offerings.
I'm not a MS apologist at all. I really am not a fan of the default Windows 8 experience, and that's coming from a MCSE/MCSA. Estimated number of Windows 8 sales are over 40 million copies, and while the initial offering for W8 was a bit of a stinker, 8.1 is a lot more enterprise friendly. I could honestly park you in front of my 8.1 machine, and you'd be hard pressed to find it gimped in the least.
But hey, don't let me interject irrefutable numerical sales numbers into your arguments :)
-
To inject a little bit of amiga talk (who'd have thunk it), do OS4.x and/or MOS have DVD playback "out of the box?
Given their commercial nature Id hazzard a guess not (given the fact that, if what is written in this thread amongst the nonsense is accurate, it should be illegal).
If memory serves me correctly MOS doesnt, but OS4 does?
-
Good, hopefully that means you won't start trolling or insulting me again.
Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong point, my request was quite clear and correcting your lies is not trolling kid.
All I got to do now is stop commodorejohn from doing the same and this place will be good again.
This place was great before people like you came along in the last three years or so.
Don't waste your time replying as i will be blocking your posts from being visible to me from now on.
-
No, please, don't force me to read 9 pages of discussions just to understand how the topic turned from "what's behind Microsoft's fall from dominance" and "the right to play back a DVD should be included when buy the DVD and playback should not be restrictred by software patents". It would be overkill ;-)
Anyway, back to original topic, I don't think there's a fall from dominance by Microsoft. It just happens that a NEW market, different than PC ones, has born in the meanwhile, and Microsoft didn't pay enough attention to its future relevance. Result is that Microsoft is still absolutely dominant in the PC *and* server market, although in the new, different MOBILE market its competition to Google and Apple has just begun. I wouldn't underestimate Microsoft here, though: I already know some people switching from iOS to Android to Windows Phone, and all of them agree the last one is the stablest among the three. This trend may diffuse if vendors of Android phones won't stop kidding with customers and decide to upgrade their products in a better way. Microsoft also bought Nokia, which in the past was the best seller competitor in the cellphone market, so they have all the know-how they need to succeed again. In a nutshell: Microsoft's fortunes might have been built on questionable marketing behaviors in the past, but they had many success stories and made many mistakes to learn from. I wouldn't bet Google and Apple share the same valuable experiences, even if they had a glorious histery behind them.
All in all, we're still at the beginning of a new era, and it's good to see all that competition that was just driven out from the computer market long ago. It will bring customers better products after all.
I don't know what industry you are in but MS is *far* from being dominant in the server space it's not even close.
UNIX-oids are by far the most used overall except for niche markets that are by definition tied to Windows like .NET etc.
-
I know it was the old Oracle worries but splitting the effort across two office suites was really not smart. Apache's Open Office and Free Software Foundations LibreOffice are based on the same buggy code and now they have double the work to fix it.
The majority of Linux distros (the ones with some actual market share) all switched to LibreOffice as did most of the active OpenOffice developers.
OpenOffice is basically irrelevent these days and has gone to the graveyard of abandoned Free Software projects that is the Apache Foundation. ;)
-
IEstimated number of Windows 8 sales are over 40 million copies, and while the initial offering for W8 was a bit of a stinker, 8.1 is a lot more enterprise friendly. I could honestly park you in front of my 8.1 machine, and you'd be hard pressed to find it gimped in the least.
But hey, don't let me interject irrefutable numerical sales numbers into your arguments :)
Doubtful. ;) But I believe this oft-quoted number has been refuted by a number of trustworthy sources. That that's 40 million copies of the software that have been shipped to resellers and OEM's, etc., but not the number that's actually been put into consumer's hands, which is much lower. In other words, a lot of those "40 million" are still sitting on store shelves.
-
I don't know what industry you are in but MS is *far* from being dominant in the server space it's not even close.
UNIX-oids are by far the most used overall except for niche markets that are by definition tied to Windows like .NET etc.
You probably don't want to hear this from me.
While *nix has a monopoly in web servers, that is the niche market. There are far more email/file servers sitting in offices around the world than web servers. It's cheaper to use Windows as you can get people with limited computer experience to be the sysadmins.
-
I don't know what industry you are in but MS is *far* from being dominant in the server space it's not even close.
UNIX-oids are by far the most used overall except for niche markets that are by definition tied to Windows like .NET etc.
Nah, not true. It's something a lot of computer enthusiasts will try to sell these days, but its not accurate.
BHP, Telstra, Optus, Compaq, etc. are hardly niche markets :)
-
Software feels different because once you've made it once the cost to reproduce it are lower. But someone fitting algorithms together and designing structures has a right to patent their work, whether that is created in software or hardware.
Software is different and that's why you have copyright for it. Software patents are an abomination of the patent system.
-
Nah, not true. It's something a lot of computer enthusiasts will try to sell these days, but its not accurate.
I'm not a "computer enthusiast", i'm quite literally an old pro who started his professional development career in the mid 90's so i'd like to think my opinions are based on more than wishful thinking. ;)
BHP, Telstra, Optus, Compaq, etc. are hardly niche markets :)
I could name bigger companies that are strictly *nix on the server but it wouldnt convince you i fear.
-
All I got to do now is stop commodorejohn from doing the same and this place will be good again.
Kindly point me to a place where I've trolled or insulted you, sir.
Closest thing I can think of is where I suggested that perhaps your perception of me as the Microsoft-hating Linux advocate you'd like me to be had to do with your living in a parallel universe...
-
Software is different and that's why you have copyright for it. Software patents are an abomination of the patent system.
The issue there is that you can have a patented piece of hardware that you can then duplicate using software without having to pay a patent license fee.
There are plenty of examples of stupid software patents, but then there are lots of stupid patents.
The irony is that without the patents then it wouldn't have been so easy for people to write a player anyway. Without a patent to protect them they'll just protect their algorithms better, you still don't get a licenced player for Linux but you won't get an un-licenced one either.
-
Kindly point me to a place where I've trolled or insulted you, sir.
Closest thing I can think of is where I suggested that perhaps your perception of me as the Microsoft-hating Linux advocate you'd like me to be had to do with your living in a parallel universe...
Your aggressive argumentative style of holding a conversation is both trolling and insulting.
-
Your aggressive argumentative style of holding a conversation is both trolling and insulting.
If that's true, I could say the same of you.
-
I don't know what industry you are in...
The italian subsidiary of IBM.
...but MS is *far* from being dominant in the server space it's not even close.
UNIX-oids are by far the most used overall except for niche markets that are by definition tied to Windows like .NET etc.
Among the 10000+ servers I can have access to, here: 850 use Linux (mainly SUSE, Red Hat and a few others), about 2600 use another UNIX dialect (counting Solaris, MVS, AS/400 and others), about 650 are physical VMware hosts (ESX/ESXi, any version), and all the rest are Windows machines. Which means 70% of servers hosted here are Windows (and not unixes) machines. You may argue that all over the world the situation may be different, but I can assure you it's a good sample of the whole server universe. Little industries that can't afford hosting in the farms of a great IT company and prefer keeping their machines in-house generally choose Microsoft too, because it offer robust integrated solutions for the web (IIS), for email (Exchange), and there's a pletora of 3rd party products that can work aside or together with them, with the relative ease of use of Windows. The myth of the server world using 99% Linux has never been true and it's extremely far from the actual situation.
-
The italian subsidiary of IBM.
Among the 10000+ servers I can have access to, here: 850 use Linux (mainly SUSE, Red Hat and a few others), about 2600 use another UNIX dialect (counting Solaris, MVS, AS/400 and others), about 650 are physical VMware hosts (ESX/ESXi, any version), and all the rest are Windows machines. Which means 70% of servers hosted here are Windows (and not unixes) machines. You may argue that all over the world the situation may be different, but I can assure you it's a good sample of the whole server universe. Little industries that can't afford hosting in the farms of a great IT company and prefer keeping their machines in-house generally choose Microsoft too, because it offer robust integrated solutions for the web (IIS), for email (Exchange), and there's a pletora of 3rd party products that can work aside or together with them, with the relative ease of use of Windows. The myth of the server world using 99% Linux has never been true and it's extremely far from the actual situation.
Who said Linux?
In the world of large RDBMS and cluster farms UNIX (And I include Linux and the BSD's in that too) is and always has been king. MS made inroads certainly but it is not even close to being dominant as you claim.
AS/400 is no UNIX either. You work for IBM?!?
-
Who said Linux?
In the world of large RDBMS and cluster farms UNIX (And I include Linux and the BSD's in that too) is and always has been king. MS made inroads certainly but it is not even close to being dominant as you claim.
AS/400 is no UNIX either. You work for IBM?!?
As I've said "including Solaris, AS/400 etc", meaning anything different from Windows. I've just excluded from the list ESX/i servers, since I don't think hypervisors should count in the picture (they just provide a virtualization environment for virtual servers which actually do a job). Is it better explained, now?
(moreover: how do you count clusters? is a cluster a single installation of UNIX/Window or every node is a different installation in your count?)
-
In the world of large RDBMS and cluster farms UNIX (And I include Linux and the BSD's in that too) is and always has been king. MS made inroads certainly but it is not even close to being dominant as you claim.
Linux/BSD is a relative new comer to RDBMS and competes in the mid range with SQL Server.
But then I guess it depends on what you class as large.
-
If that's true, I could say the same of you.
You think anyone who disagrees with you is worthy of an attack, I tend to wait until I'm attacked.
-
@gaula92 - It's evident that you have no idea what life is like in the business world.
The company I work for has over 15,000 computer users worldwide, ALL using Microsoft products. In spite of what you may think, most work is not done on tablets or smart phones, but by people sitting at desks using laptops or desktop machines. The business world has no intent of ever moving to an underpowered Android device or an overpriced Apple product. Thank goodness the majority of IT departments are run by intelligent managers, not by fan boys like yourself.
The ONLY contender for a business O/S besides Windows is, of course Linux, however I don't see much movement in that direction. The Linux business model is not what most companies are looking for in selecting an operating system, It's unfortunate, but true.
Whether you like it or not, Microsoft will be around for many years to come.
All true. But don't let reality get in the way of tall poppy stories. Microsoft is the only company with a serious joined up integrated business product model. Oracle are a disjointed basket case, IBM truly black, and Open Source puts you at the mercy of recalcitrant admins and zealots that don't understand what enterprise architecture actually means; AKA my way or the highway. The complexity and cost of integration and the resources required to do it (badly) blows it out of the race.
IMO there is no competition. If MS are doing so badly in sales where is all their money coming from? The company I work for has 25k + Windows Desktops and I estimate over 1000 Windows servers and 200-300 Linux & Unix(solaris). Both physical and virtual.
-
Nah, not true. It's something a lot of computer enthusiasts will try to sell these days, but its not accurate.
BHP, Telstra, Optus, Compaq, etc. are hardly niche markets :)
Compaq definitely are.
-
Software is different and that's why you have copyright for it. Software patents are an abomination of the patent system.
A very valid point and an important distinction, Staf.
Patents just stifle progress.
-
You think anyone who disagrees with you is worthy of an attack, I tend to wait until I'm attacked.
Insist all you like; that won't make it true, any more than your portrayal of me as some kind of Linux-loving Windows-hater was true.
-
The issue there is that you can have a patented piece of hardware that you can then duplicate using software without having to pay a patent license fee.
Could you give an example of such a hardware patent that could be replaced fully with pure software ?
-
A very valid point and an important distinction, Staf.
Patents just stifle progress.
I do think certain industries like pharmaceutics needs protection from cloning for a certain amount of time to earn back the research. I don't count software as one of those industries though. There patents are more used as protection of the monopolies/duopolies etc. against competition than it is to protect real innovative inventors from the big guys.
-
Insist all you like; that won't make it true, any more than your portrayal of me as some kind of Linux-loving Windows-hater was true.
I don't need to insist, by keeping arguments going like this you prove it yourself.
-
Could you give an example of such a hardware patent that could be replaced fully with pure software ?
Will this do?
http://www.google.com/patents/US5093831
This is part hardware and part software
https://www.google.com/patents/US5926786
Here is a bad circuit patent.
http://www.faqs.org/patents/imgfull/20110025518_01
-
Compaq definitely are.
Damn, I still have a habbit of saying Compaq rather than HP.
HP are definately no niche :)
-
I don't need to insist, by keeping arguments going like this you prove it yourself.
Takes two to tango, buddy.
-
Was microsoft really ever dominant?
-
Was microsoft really ever dominant?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems
I'd take that as a yes.
-
Takes two to tango, buddy.
Sigh.
-
Forgive me for not diving into all claims in detail.
Will this do?
http://www.google.com/patents/US5093831
No, the fast hardware implementation part of the patent seems to an essential part of the patent so it should not apply to pure software solutions.
This is part hardware and part software
https://www.google.com/patents/US5926786
If I understand correctly they did patent here a design of an ASIC. Which I think should never have been patented as not passing the "non-triviality for somebody skilled enough" requirement. Although hard to judge so long after the fact, I don't see anything in the patent where another design team with the same specs couldn't have come with the same solution.
Here is a bad circuit patent.
http://www.faqs.org/patents/imgfull/20110025518_01
Sure, but I don't see how a bad circuit patent would make software patents any better.
-
No, the fast hardware implementation part of the patent seems to an essential part of the patent so it should not apply to pure software solutions.
So if I design a CPU that has a couple of op-codes that are carefully designed to implement that functionality then because it uses software then it works round the patent?
I don't see anything in the patent where another design team with the same specs couldn't have come with the same solution.
With all patents it's possible for multiple people to come up with the solution, the patent system rewards the person who files first. It's assumed they are the ones that put the most effort and money into it.
Sure, but I don't see how a bad circuit patent would make software patents any better.
Because people talk as if software patents are the only bad ones out there, just because you can find a bad software patent doesn't mean that they are all bad.
-
So Microsoft basically a Pullman or RCA that will some day be liquidated and it's name licensed out to various companies? They probably should have bought the boot division of Nokia so they would have something to fall back on.
-
Because people talk as if software patents are the only bad ones out there, just because you can find a bad software patent doesn't mean that they are all bad.
The thing about software patents (or algorithm patents in general) is that it comes down to letting someone lay full legal claim to a way of doing things. Not a specific design for a machine or a circuit, but an abstract, general sequence of steps for solving a problem. That's just all kinds of bizarre and wrong. I mean, should we be able to patent mathematical formulae?
-
Good article on patent trolls:
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-09-17/troll-fighting-anatomy-of-a-patent-lawsuit#r=hp-ls
-
The thing about software patents (or algorithm patents in general) is that it comes down to letting someone lay full legal claim to a way of doing things. Not a specific design for a machine or a circuit, but an abstract, general sequence of steps for solving a problem. That's just all kinds of bizarre and wrong. I mean, should we be able to patent mathematical formulae?
Hardware patents are pretty abstract. You can't do force feedback with more than one balanced motor spinning an unbalanced weight without infringing immersion's patent. Nintendo only use one motor, so it's not affected.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_v._Sony
To me that lays a claim to a way of doing things, rather than a specific design.
-
I won't argue that hardware patents can't be bafflingly vague. Still, when you allow this kind of thing, what's to stop someone from patenting, say, the twelve-bar blues? (Other than prior art, that is.) It gets plainly absurd real fast.
-
Still more expensive than Windows 7. The real question is, why would anyone pay to upgrade, when desktop computers are getting used less and less by average consumers? They need to incentivize this pricing if they expect it to sell in volume. Of course their real market is still pushing to bottom-feeding consumers buying computers at box stores like Best Buy, Walmart, etc.
(quote) "Windows 8.1 will cost the same as Windows 8 did this time last year, with US pricing starting at $119 and Windows 8.1 Pro costing $199; an extra $10 gets you Windows Media Center." -
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/384244/windows-8-1-lets-pc-makers-start-from-scratch?_mout=1&utm_campaign=pcpro_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter
-
Re: What's behind Microsoft's fall from dominance?
Pluto transiting into Capricorn awhile back. Astrologically, Pluto is "power", "the phoenix" (relating to "resurrection"), "the destroyer", among other things. Rules Scorpio (Bill Gates' sign). My prediction of Bill Gates leaving Microsoft came true. I saw Pluto transiting out of Sagittarius (Microsoft's sign) and into the sign of both Apple and Amiga. Pluto gave "power" to Apple--and would have, had Amiga played its cards right--and "destroyed" Amiga.
As the stars turn, there is the possibility of a role-reversal between Apple and Amiga--but it would take some effort. Amiga could still rise to challenge Apple, then we'd have the tech equivalent of the Coca-Cola vs. Pepsi wars.
Pluto also rules: dictators, dictatorship, monopoly, greed, ruthlessness, vindictiveness, sarcasm, brute force, manipulation, the mafia, gangs, the underworld, extreme violence, jealousy... On the lower end. Higher traits include penetrating exactness, research, psychology, transformation, metamorphosis (though that can be a 'turning bad', too).
I'll stop there. Astrology always carries me away. :D
-
I won't argue that hardware patents can't be bafflingly vague. Still, when you allow this kind of thing, what's to stop someone from patenting, say, the twelve-bar blues? (Other than prior art, that is.) It gets plainly absurd real fast.
Whether you think it's absurd or not comes down to whether you were the one that invented it or not.
Magic tricks are a bigger area that could do with some form of protection.
Patents don't work particularly well as the whole point of magic is to annoy people by not explaining how they work & you have to explain it to get a patent.
http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/07/the-tricky-business-of-innovation-can-you-patent-a-magic-trick/
-
So if I design a CPU that has a couple of op-codes that are carefully designed to implement that functionality then because it uses software then it works round the patent?
No the hardware in the CPU falls under the patent not the software using the hardware; the people making the CPU have to license the patent. Or would you claim that one can't write software for this CPU without taking a license on the patent ?
With all patents it's possible for multiple people to come up with the solution, the patent system rewards the person who files first. It's assumed they are the ones that put the most effort and money into it.
Effort and money is not related to patentability; see this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventive_step_and_non-obviousness) for one of the requirements. A patent has to be more than some (tough) engineering and being first. And yes, I do think this rule is not applied strict enough. Problem is that there is not enough incentive for an examiner to be very strict, agreeing with a patent proposal is easier than back-and-forth bickering.
Let me tell you I went through this mumbo-jumbo a few times and am listed as inventor on a few patent (the rights are with my employer though). But this only enforced my belief something is terribly wrong in the current patent system.
Because people talk as if software patents are the only bad ones out there, just because you can find a bad software patent doesn't mean that they are all bad.
As said before, for software copyright is enough to drive innovation and lack of patents won't stop people writing software as they can't earn back their investment. In software, patents are hampering innovations and favoring the behemoths. Even very smart programmers don't need or deserve a 20 year monopoly on their ideas in the fast-paced software world.
-
Problem is that there is not enough incentive for an examiner to be very strict, agreeing with a patent proposal is easier than back-and-forth bickering.
Worse yet, in the US the Patent Office is funded by patents, so there's monetary incentive to just grant it and then let the question of whether that was at all appropriate get sorted out in the courts...
-
No the hardware in the CPU falls under the patent not the software using the hardware; the people making the CPU have to license the patent. Or would you claim that one can't write software for this CPU without taking a license on the patent ?
I don't think the CPU could infringe without the specific software that makes it perform the same function as the hardware. So it would only be those two things combined together that would need a license. There is a similar situation with chips that support HDMI only needing a license if you add an HDMI connector to your design.
As said before, for software copyright is enough to drive innovation and lack of patents won't stop people writing software as they can't earn back their investment. In software, patents are hampering innovations and favoring the behemoths. Even very smart programmers don't need or deserve a 20 year monopoly on their ideas in the fast-paced software world.
20 years is too long for any technology related patent. Someone knocking up some irrelevant program in their bed room then copyright is enough.
IMO copyright isn't enough for an industry wide system like DVD. I don't believe the DVD CCA supplied the code that is used in all of the players, they may have provided a reference implementation as an example but their invention was a process. Implementing the software is easy, without the patent there is no barrier to entry & they would have no way to make any money back.
Sure it would be super cool if you could rip off their work without having to pay a license fee, but that would hamper innovation more. A hacker in their bed room isn't going to produce the next disc format. It's going to be some big organisation & they are only going to do it if they have a way of protecting their investment.
AFAIK Google have patented their pagerank system, I'm pretty sure they would be upset if Microsoft just copied how it worked.