Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?

[yssing]

NovaCoder, and it a shame it pushed you away. The classic does benefit a lot from your work though

But as Trevor said, the x1000 sold more than 200 but less than 2000, one can only speculate on the numbers actually sold, but it does confirm that the user base is a lot bigger than the handfull of users here on amiga.org

[OlafS3]

NovaCoder, and it a shame it pushed you away. The classic does benefit a lot from your work though

But as Trevor said, the x1000 sold more than 200 but less than 2000, one can only speculate on the numbers actually sold, but it does confirm that the user base is a lot bigger than the handfull of users here on amiga.org

a couple of hundred propably (what is much for the limited AmigaOS community and the high price)

[vox]

The X1000 is poorly implemented and overpriced. How can one dare charge that amount of money for a prototype (especially when it is still not fully functional)

Hardware is fully functional and its not a prototype.
Fact that OS 4.1 does not support all its features (but Linux does) is well known. Having it out now is better then waiting 2014 or so for OS 4.2 to be out. As well as you get license for OS 4.2

Secondly, how is Raspberry Pi Foundation able to turn out computers for under US$50, yet we have not seen a similar priced native compatible Amiga 4.x system

It was a great kickstarter that have made them buy at huge quantities of anyway relativly cheap ARM hardware. So they were kind of prepaid. It is entirely different to risk your own (A-EON) money to build and sell something in small batches of 10-100 pieces with extremely expensive CPU.

I think it did push some people away, I was one of them
I was waiting to see what would be announced after Hyperion won their long running legal battle with Amiga Inc and was at that point considering buying into OS4.   When Hyperion's big plan turned out to be the X1000 launch, I lost interest in OS4 and decided to stick with classics instead.

They announced new partners and OS development. What is so bad? SAM 460 appeared, you could get that. I don`t understand how new expensive hardware (while lower end and middle SAMs avail) is to be blamed with your disappointed in Hyperion overall. Not to mention Amiga Inc did also promised cheaper ACK hardware that newer appeared. I do feel new breeze after the court case and au contraire, that has made me wish to support it even more. So A-EON could also positivly influence the situation.

Of course MorphOS is also a niche OS developed at a Hobby basis with a tiny user base, but MorphOS is still being actively developed and AFAIK there is actually a plan to migrate to a better platform/ISA and to introduce modern OS features, etc.

Everything is the same, beside Hyperion considering PPC to be a modern platform. Apart from announcement, we know even less of MorphOS migration then of AMP/SMP/multicore on OS 4.2. If we take X2000 as better platform/ISA you could just substitute MorphOS in your lines with AOS4.

And going x86 is not magic solution: it would probably like with Macs work on very few boards as there would be inability to support all board chipsets, gfx cards etc. so situation would be kind of similar, apart from cheaper and more powerful hardware. But I am honestly willing to bet AOS 4.2 would come faster then x86 MorphOS.

It was supposed to be the future of OS4, but when it turned out to be nothing but a poorly supported $3,000+ machine with 2005 level performance that never even was released in a proper way, then it suddenly became obvious to everyone that the plan had failed, that any hope of a future is gone.

No, to me, X1000 is success as high end model that provided platform to develop experience to make X2000. It would be availiable more time if it wasn`t using mythical PA Semi which will be corrected with X2000.

Its just showed how much AOS 4 has to go forward, and it pushed and made possible to develop more modern drivers and features. How do you think that could happen without having such high end?

And what happened to Pre/Box on MOS (as its real modern features part) - it just shifted to ABox x86. I could aslo call that a major failure of plans.

Its simply as small pond as it is where things don`t happen fast. But with A-EON, I see things delivered. Only Hyperion side I could wish is doing more progress, but again, have seen more updates in past two years then ever before. That is not a failure, but a progress. I do also wish to AROS and MorphOS.

And we don`t go around bitchin how poor support is for G5 Mac (which is about as much as OS 4.1.6 supports X1000)

Because this is one of the few last remaining myths/lies from Hyperion that is now unfolding and being revealed. SMP can't be done without breaking AMIGA, it's as simple as that. But Hyperion said it could, and they sold machines, dreams and hope based on this, collected money, used this as a false spec in dirty competition, etc. That's why this is important.

We ll see how multi core would be implemented in OS 4.2. Personally, I would be satisfied by using parallel processing of having one box (app or even Linux inside AOS4) per CPU.

Hardware is not falsely specified. It works under Linux, because AOS 4.1.6, just like MorphOS is single core OS currently.

And again, similar thing is what happened to Pre/Box on MorphOS? OS does not aim to AmigaOS compatibility and original goal was SMP. When it will come for G5 Macs? Will be at least any use of second core? To me its about as same promise that has somehow dissapeared - sandboxing that would enable use of cores. Even that is step forward for OSs that use just one CPU.

What is dirty competition for you? In such a small pond?

[OlafS3]

"AOS 4.2 would come faster then x86 MorphOS."

Assuming that it will need years for MorphOS to make the shift to a new platform it is a easy bet :-)

The disappointment was because people expected Hyperion to drop PPC and go to new and more powerful hardware (X86/X64), instead the X1000 was announced who is again years behind competition (except price-wise). So it was clear that there will be no (or at least only few) new users and that thicks in the niche it is in. Perhaps people had more expectations and thought after the court settling that all what was hindering Hyperion is out of the way and they announce a new great strategy. And when this not happened they dropped the platform. Most stayed till their hardware died.

[vox]

"AOS 4.2 would come faster then x86 MorphOS."

Assuming that it will need years for MorphOS to make the shift to a new platform it is a easy bet :-)

The disappointment was because people expected Hyperion to drop PPC and go to new and more powerful hardware (X86/X64), instead the X1000 was announced who is again years behind competition (except price-wise). So it was clear that there will be no (or at least only few) new users and that thicks in the niche it is in. Perhaps people had more expectations and thought after the court settling that all what was hindering Hyperion is out of the way and they announce a new great strategy. And when this not happened they dropped the platform. Most stayed till their hardware died.

They could at least have SAM. So its not X1000 to be blamed per se, but Hyperions choice.

OK. But seeing that x86 transition might take years, I take staying PPC and developing OS also as a valid choice. And don`t feel bad about since I am used to having dedicated Amiga machine. Being second or third OS on an x86 machine will not bring a world conquest - look at AROS. I could really bitch about the price (because with it goes a bank debt that increases it even more) but I take it as consciouss choice that SAMs are quirky and limited in many ways and that is what I wanted as platform for current AmigaOS 4.1 and its development.

If you take x86 AmigaOS4 dream as quite an illusion (based on what?) I do feel much progress. I didn`t even expect support for high end RadeonsHD and port of Libre Office - but I do understand that as way to modernity.

Surely, Hyperion judges what is possible on their current resources, as well as MorphOS and AROS teams.

My own dream of AmigaOS 5 that would be (kind of as Amiga Inc TAO promised) CPU independent running on both PPC and x86 and ARM, while being based on look and feel of OS4, MOS and AROS, is just my dream. But it doesn`t mean I will not support what is on the table.

[OlafS3]

They could at least have SAM. So its not X1000 to be blamed per se, but Hyperions choice.

OK. But seeing that x86 transition might take years, I take staying PPC and developing OS also as a valid choice. And don`t feel bad about since I am used to having dedicated Amiga machine. Being second or third OS on an x86 machine will not bring a world conquest - look at AROS. I could really bitch about the price (because with it goes a bank debt that increases it even more) but I take it as consciouss choice that SAMs are quirky and limited in many ways and that is what I wanted as platform for current AmigaOS 4.1 and its development.

If you take x86 AmigaOS4 dream as quite an illusion (based on what?) I do feel much progress. I didn`t even expect support for high end RadeonsHD and port of Libre Office - but I do understand that as way to modernity.

Surely, Hyperion judges what is possible on their current resources, as well as MorphOS and AROS teams.

My own dream of AmigaOS 5 that would be (kind of as Amiga Inc TAO promised) CPU independent running on both PPC and x86 and ARM, while being based on look and feel of OS4, MOS and AROS, is just my dream. But it doesn`t mean I will not support what is on the table.

I had the idea that MorphOS and AROS would have a common infrastructure (API, USB, PCI and so on) and tried to discuss it with MorphOS developers and do not think there is interest. With Ben H. it is not even possible to discuss (partly because threads fast derail and get into a big bashing). And in the last months I had sneak peak into some of the differences. If you only dig a little you immdediately see lots of differences how things are implemented, parameters and how it all behaves. To have a common "API" (or similar) it would mean all parties would have to make a lot of compromises, drop own ideas and so on. I do not see any realistic chance for it (even it would be good in economic sense). It would have been good if all camps would have sit on a table and agreed on common standards and APIs (with exact definitions). But that was not the case.

[kickstart]

Change the thread name, there is not any amiga called x1000.

[cgutjahr]

I fail to see why people feel the need to criticise the strategy EVERY TIME OS4 is mentioned.

This argument cuts both ways. There's a large group of people that keep criticising the X1000 every time it is mentioned, but there's an equally large group of people who dismiss every form of criticism as hate-mongering by blue trolls and insist that every thing is perfectly fine and only child molesters would ever claim otherwise.

As for why people keep criticising - I can only tell you why I keep criticising:

Hyperion and A-EON keep abusing the AMIGA trademark - or rather, due to lack of a proper license, the  "AMIGAsomething" trademark - to sell substandard, half finished products. I call that abuse.

They don't even bother to do proper PR anymore, they simply rely on their remaining user base to buy whatever it gets served. Questions about yesterdays announcements and promises are either dodged ("I don't like the term SMP anyway"), not answered "because of the trolls" or simply ignored. And, as a long-standing tradition in the OS4 camp, problems are either denied or downplayed ("I can play video just fine"). At the same time, gullible users are encouraged to buy a $4000 computer that doesn't even do DMA properly. I'm too polite to tell you what I call that.

OS4 used to be a very thrilling and promising project once, but they (i.e. the handfull of people that haven't been driven away by management yet) hit a dead end. Instead of admitting that and trying to figure out how to solve the problem, they simply invented the "we're AMIGA, and at least we're trying" defense - and they get away with it, because people are so loyal to the brand and/or product they have a hard time imagining that whoever's raping the brand this week can be that short sighted or deluded.

These days, the Amiga name is used to earn 7000 Euro with a half-assed and mostly unusable browser port, to get a free $800 computer for designing some skins or to sell a piece of 2005 hardware at 1985 prices and actually make people pay upfront. That kind of stuff pisses me off.

[Erol]

Can I just step in and just say something... I agree with everyone comments as they all have merits on here, its an open discussion so I'm not bashing anyone just wanted to add my comments and agree with VOX whole heatedly.

A-EON  have a backlog of orders which means they cannot make enough X1000 quickly to meet the demand,  this was mentioned in PC Magazine interview with Trevor.
So we can be thankful there is a demand for a new Amiga, it's a step forward!

Right now for some history lessons in prices...

When the first A1000 came out it was a new machine which cost $1,595 USD (complete machine)
When Acorn released the ARM computer that cost depending on model between £650 ($987) for the A3000,  the A5000 was $2279 dollars (£1500)

Now bigger the orders the cheaper the prices drops..  A500 sold original at £499 ($765) more if you wanted memory.
Commodore managed to drop the price down to £399 ($612) and with the launch of the A500+ deal bundles got lower,  I remember buying an A500 for £239.. which was insane for that time..  demand was high causing prices to drop.

Apple III cost $7,800
Apple (first) macintosh cost $2,495


Do we see a pattern emerging.


iPhone5 costs £529  $811 for a phone... but remember its ARM which is cheap cause they in everything from tablets to washing machines and Apple is a big $ company.


Now PowerPC chips are expensive hence (one reason) why Apple dropped PowerPC chipset to move to intel.  
Sony dropped the PowerPC chipset in the PS4 moving to AMD reasons may have been cost but we were told it was hard to port games from PC to PS3.


The Amiga is in a transition phase, this means if we all want to see the Amiga survive as a platform OS we need to accept variety its what helped Linux community grow and Amiga needs to follow the same path Linux and Apple.  


Considering how custom the machine is, the price is justified because A-EON have to make a profit they are dealing with suppliers whom are willing to help the Amiga community unfortunately that comes at a price.  They are a private company not a billion dollar company,  Parts are only cheap when you buy/sell in large quantities.


Now to finish i want to say that 2 years ago I sold my Amiga Technologies A4000T with PPC Cyberstorm card (top of the range), Mediator board lots of extra cards and other bits.  That sold to a scientist in Germany for £5000k..  Yes £5k..

Now if the X1000 is overpriced then a Sam board or an X500 are available, there is plenty of choice out there..
I do feel that it is an exciting time now for the Amiga community there a lot happening.

Lets all share the Amiga.. and spread the word on all social media sites..    networking and sharing with love please!

And we're lucky to still have an Amiga Magazine 'Amiga Future'   I think the name says it all.. lets look forward to a future with the Amiga.

[ciento]

(We can't be trusted, to stop reading boring repetitive flamefests
on our own, or skip posts that are rants, and move on to ones
of interest. )

moderator's note: this post has been edited removing content of a false and libelous nature. for future reference, please see our posting guidelines, specifically:     Posts of a libellous nature are not allowed.
Everyone  has a right to their own opinion, whether you think it right or wrong.  Posting false information about an individual is not only bad form, but  could become a serious problem, both for the poster, and for Amiga.org  itself.
this is completely unacceptable here and we have zero tolerance for it. any repeat of this will result in posting restrictions. this is your only warning.

Everyone who has been to Ami-West knows full well that every
'camp' is represented, and everyone has great fun. My post was
an obvious joke, pointing out the absurdity of over-moderating
the communications of grownups. I don't expext moderators
to be perfect, but don't accuse me of saying libelous things,
when you simply took offense to my criticism.

 The person I responded to, was discussing heavy handed moderation,
and I merely agreed, illustrating it with the obvious absurdity, which is
also a tribute to how good natured this community really is. I'm
assuming you've been to at least one Ami-West, and actually
know of what I speak.

[eliyahu]

@ciento

sorry about that. i didn't know you were joking. when you talked about fistfights and brawls at the show, i thought you were trying to serious suggest those things actually happened.

in the future a quick PM to me will solve the matter.

-- eliyahu

[vox]

These days, the Amiga name is used to earn 7000 Euro with a half-assed and mostly unusable browser port, to get a free $800 computer for designing some skins or to sell a piece of 2005 hardware at 1985 prices and actually make people pay upfront. That kind of stuff pisses me off.

Wow. What would you think of C=USA and Roberto if you judge TW bounty, DJ Nick and A-EON A1 X1000 harshly.

[OlafS3]

Wow. What would you think of C=USA and Roberto if you judge TW bounty, DJ Nick and A-EON A1 X1000 harshly.

Better do not ask :laugh1:

[nicholas]

I'd like to see MorphOS running on the X1000, but is Trevor willing to pay the MOS-Team a proper fee to port it rather than just offer them a motherboard and hope they'll do it for free?

[nicholas]

TMGHM , do you know that for a fact, or are you just being, well you, and trying your best to bash the x1000.

I am very sure that the x1000 did not push people away, I actually believe it did quite the opposite.

It pushed me away into the loving arms of MorphOS 3.2 on a PowerBook.

Hyperion could quite easily port OS4 to Mac hardware but for reasons only known to themselves they choose not to.

And before anyone starts with the BS excuse that they are legally bound to only support AmigaONE branded hardware I will point you to the Pegasos II and ACube SAM ports. Neither of those platforms are legally AmigaONE branded hardware.

[number6]

It pushed me away into the loving arms of MorphOS 3.2 on a PowerBook.

Hyperion could quite easily port OS4 to Mac hardware but for reasons only known to themselves they choose not to.

And before anyone starts with the BS excuse that they are legally bound to only support AmigaONE branded hardware I will point you to the Pegasos II and ACube SAM ports. Neither of those platforms are legally AmigaONE branded hardware.

All of that was prior to the importance of branding being stressed.
After your examples they rebranded Sam460 as "Amigaone 500".
One must protect the branding you know by using it.

Regardless, "they" have two h/w developers to consider now, and making such a decision would obviously affect them.

#6