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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Topic started by: SysAdmin on August 04, 2011, 08:16:12 AM
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News from amigabounty.net
http://www.amigabounty.net/?function=viewhistory&projectid=44&historyid=53
Thomas Frieden has posted an update to the status of porting Firefox to Amiga OS 4.1.
Text: I'm aware that we have been quiet lately, but don't worry, there's been work going on, and Timberwolf is making progress.
The 4.0 code base of Firefox now fully builds and a prototype implementation of the new rendering code was implemented, based on the old rendering code.
Instead of "fixing" the old code, though, we opted for a complete rewrite, for a couple of reasons. First of all, the old code became really bad with time (the usual thing that happens with experimental code). Secondly, reimplementing it all would get rid of any artifacts in the code that were still necessary in the 3.5 source tree. Basically, it's a clean start.
With the information gathered in the previous effort, it only took me some few hours to rewrite the skeleton for the widgets module. This does not include the rendering code yet. This will be up next, right after fixing a few outstanding bugs that cause crashes on exit.
In the process of porting the 4.0 base, we also ported a new version of sqlite. We'll release that in the near future (when I find the time, if you need it up front, drop me a mail).
I'm usually quite bad at predicting how long things will take (Actually, precisely "when it's done", of course), but I hope to have the rendering code in in the course of the next two to three weeks (depending on how much time I have for working on the project). We will release a new pre-release version as soon as we have something that can be remotely used.
We also wish to take the opportunity to thank all of those that supported us, and apologize for the long stretches of silence. We're still at work, and although progress is slow, we'll eventually get there.
Created by: tfrieden
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Excellent :banana:
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Excellent! :banana:
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Party time
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Thanks for all your efforts. It is appreciated.
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can't wait to try the next release of Timberwolf & Thunderwolf too:drink:
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With the next update 3 this program will be included?
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Are they going to release the source code for this?
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Are they going to release the source code for this?
They have to
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Are they going to release the source code for this?
Only the parts that are already public.
http://www.amigabounty.net/?function=viewproject&projectid=44
"The source code of the port will be made available only as far as the MPL requires it, i.e. all modified source code files will be available for interested parties, but new files will not. This is in accordance with the requirements of the Mozilla Public License. "
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Yeh. usual amiga attitude. Do the bare minimum when it comes to sourcecode releases. (either no source, or as little as they can get away with) if everyone did this of course, there would be nothing to port to the Amiga. I realised I made some similar comments in another thread, but the source thing does keep coming up.. The attitude sucks.
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Yeh. usual amiga attitude. Do the bare minimum when it comes to sourcecode releases. (either no source, or as little as they can get away with) if everyone did this of course, there would be nothing to port to the Amiga. I realised I made some similar comments in another thread, but the source thing does keep coming up.. The attitude sucks.
Well why don't you sit down and port it and release all sources then?
If this is the only way we get "firefox" then so be it.
Clearly I too would prefer the source code to be released, but there's no point bitching about the fact it hasn't.
Furthermore it is worth pointing out that if there are no developments released within a period of 12 months, then the source code WILL be released.
Seems reasonable to me.
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Well why don't you sit down and port it and release all sources then?
If this is the only way we get "firefox" then so be it.
Clearly I too would prefer the source code to be released, but there's no point bitching about the fact it hasn't.
Furthermore it is worth pointing out that if there are no developments released within a period of 12 months, then the source code WILL be released.
Seems reasonable to me.
Your first remark is part of the point. why not? because what a waste of time have people do the same stuff over and over again (ignoring the fact, that it's an incredibly complicated thing to port, and quite probably beyond me for sure, and that I personally have no interest in running it on any Amiga). My point was regarding the fact very little software on the Amiga is open, and Amiga users are the first to take from the open source world, and give back as little as they can or nothing.
I think there is a point discussing it. Perhaps people will change their minds and see that it would benefit all of us.
I didn't know about the last point. Well, I suppose that's something.
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Good news. This project is the MOST important amiga project going hw or sw.
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youre not exaggerating?
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Good news. This project is the MOST important amiga project going hw or sw.
Are you kidding?
Go find an old-time Amiga user who hasn't been keeping up with things the past ten years. Explain to them that if they buy either something called a SAM for about $1000, or wait an indeterminate amount of time for something else they can buy called an X1000 for about $3000 from another company they've never heard of, then they can run a browser based on an old version of FireFox. If they can contain themselves then explain how this brings a whole host of Mozilla technology to something called OS4.
Let us know how excited they get. Better yet record it and post it on youtube.
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Well not sure how to field the statements above but I can tell you that when I used to have a nice studio in nyc a lot of graphic designers, motion gfx guys, 3d guys, audio, musicians, etc saw my amiga and pegasos setup they were blown away. Some even wanted me to put together a system for them, but when they find out no name or "modern" webbrowser it became not so serious. Do you understand now? I'm not talking about fanboys when I said FF is the most important project.
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Well not sure how to field the statements above but I can tell you that when I used to have a nice studio in nyc a lot of graphic designers, motion gfx guys, 3d guys, audio, musicians, etc saw my amiga and pegasos setup they were blown away
what specifically were they impressed with? I'm just curious as such people would no doubt want to see some graphics software no?
also "blown" away and then not interested because of no modern web browser, makes me think they weren't that blown away anyway. then they find out there is no modern graphics software, or that they can run blender but it's way slow compared to their mums £200 pc ;-)
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Yeh. usual amiga attitude. Do the bare minimum when it comes to sourcecode releases. (either no source, or as little as they can get away with) if everyone did this of course, there would be nothing to port to the Amiga. I realised I made some similar comments in another thread, but the source thing does keep coming up.. The attitude sucks.
They're probably just trying to avoid embarrassment.
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I think taking an open source project, porting it to amiga and then refusing to release their own source is if not illegal, certainly unethical and immoral.
I don't know the legalities, but its just wrong.
Steven
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I believe that the Firefox code is tri-licensed. Mozilla, GPL and the more permissive LGPL. LGPL allows for "non-dirivative: work to be released without source. However, if I understand LGPL correctly, it defines such a program as one that links (i.e. a DLL) or uses the original code as library only.
I too am not a lawyer, but I would think that writing a browser based on the Firefox code would not apply as listed in the LGPL.
Very disappointing...
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Blah de blah de blah.
Timberwolf isn't even finished or released yet. Stop whinging.
The stance on the source code is perfectly clear for all to read, see last sentence.
http://www.amigabounty.net/?function=viewproject&projectid=44
And yes it is the single most important piece of new software coming to an Amiga near you soon - unless of course you know something we don't. If that is the case please do enlighten us! :p
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I too am not a lawyer, but I would think that writing a browser based on the Firefox code would not apply as listed in the LGPL.
I believe the Mozilla license allows new sources to be close/private. But it isn't particularly in the spirit of things.
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And yes it is the single most important piece of new software coming to an Amiga near you soon - unless of course you know something we don't. If that is the case please do enlighten us! :p
personally, I'm far more interested in the next Amiga demo release.
[edit]. porting it is an impressive feat of course, and I respect their abilities. But I guess my interests in the Amiga don't include browsing the web (Which my pc does perfectly well). For those that "only" have computers with the "Amiga" brand, im sure it will be useful. (you loons!).
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Yeh. usual amiga attitude. Do the bare minimum when it comes to sourcecode releases. The attitude sucks.
The creator(s) of any software have sole ownership of their project, and it is absolutely their choice whether they decide to release their work as open or closed source.
I'm getting the impression that you're one of those people who believe that software writers have an obligation to release their work on an open source licence and that to do it any other way is somehow incorrect, unfair and unacceptable. Would this be a fair summary of your feelings? You're not alone. Lots of people seem to think this way. Software development is the only sector that appears to attract this attitude, for some reason.
The reality is that there's no correct or incorrect way to licence software. The developers take a decision about how they want to do it based upon the situation that suits them the best. They're the ones who have spent significant amounts of their time on the project (time being the most valuable asset of all) and, as such, it is absolutely their prerogative.
Personally, I can't for the life of me understand why a user feels he has the right to critisise the decision, as it has nothing to do with him. Unless he's spent his own precious time on the project (or perhaps financed it in another way, but time is the most precious investment of all), then really he has no say in it at all! This is absolutely fair.
I don't currently work on any Amiga related projects, but I do undertake some software and hardware development on other projects and I have a tendancy to release my work on an open source licence because that's what generally suits me the best. But they are my projects and, on a project by project basis, it's absolutely my decision to make. Nobody else has a say in it, and I don't feel that anyone else is in a position to take me to task on it. Anyone who doesn't like my decision, is free to invest their own time on their own project and then the decision will be theirs instead.
And, at the end of the day, we should really think ourselves lucky (as users) that someone has invested their own personal time to bring the Firefox project to fruition. Let's be honest, it didn't look as if anyone else was going to do it.
AH
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it's an incredibly complicated thing to port, and quite probably beyond me for sure,
Yes, you're right, porting Firefox is a big project. If it weren't, someone else would have done it already. This means that it requires a huge investment in terms of time, and as I've already mentioned, time is precious.
You said that you thought the project was beyond you. It's probably not beyond you (assuming you're of average intelligence which is a fair assumption to make), but in order for you to have any chance of getting to grips with the project you'll first need to learn to program. You don't necessarily need a degree in the subject, but you certainly need to aggressively self study. And I don't mean by getting yourself a "learn to program in X in 24 hours book". I'm talking about a 10 year aggressive investment in learning - that's how long it takes to become a good programmer, the same as any other specialty.
After that you can start on the Firefox project, and that'll be another x number of years of investment.
That's a big investment, I think you'll agree.
AH
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The creator(s) of any software have sole ownership of their project, and it is absolutely their choice whether they decide to release their work as open or closed source.
I'm getting the impression that you're one of those people who believe that software writers have an obligation to release their work on an open source licence and that to do it any other way is somehow incorrect, unfair and unacceptable. Would this be a fair summary of your feelings? You're not alone. Lots of people seem to think this way. Software development is the only sector that appears to attract this attitude, for some reason.
not at all. my point is not the license that people choose for their own work, but that Amiga developers love to utilize other peoples open source, and do their best to avoid releasing the changes. in this case, they are using a clause in the mozilla license to not release their "new parts". yes it is their decision to make, but it isn't in the spirit of things, and especially since Amiga developers benefit so much from all the open source available, it seems crap they never manage to give anything back (or to share code with the other amiga platforms). and we are also talking about a commercially dead platform here (in any real sense, im sure many will not agree) where people quite often ditch projects and are never to be seen again, so I do think open source can help in some cases.
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But I guess my interests in the Amiga don't include browsing the web
I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on you here - because I'm not - but I had to comment on this last statement as well.
If you're saying that you don't really care about browsing the web on the Amiga, then presumably you couldn't care less whether Firefox is ported or not?
That being the case, why do you care about the licence it is released under, if you wouldn't care if it had never been released?
AH
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That's a big investment, I think you'll agree.
Sure - and I am actually a developer who invests a LOT of his free time in open projects. (almost all actually!)
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That being the case, why do you care about the licence it is released under, if you wouldn't care if it had never been released?
Because I put a lot of time into developing on open projects, benefit greatly from open source in general in the software I run (and have the ability to fix it), and dislike the general attitude with amiga development, excluding AROS, where the others do their best to not share any code. There have been plenty of things in the Amiga world that if they had been open source, the situation would now be better. From Filesystems to tcp/ip stacks, to browsers.
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not at all. my point is not the license that people choose for their own work, but that Amiga developers love to utilize other peoples open source, and do their best to avoid releasing the changes. in this case, they are using a clause in the mozilla license to not release their "new parts". yes it is their decision to make, but it isn't in the spirit of things, and especially since Amiga developers benefit so much from all the open source available, it seems crap they never manage to give anything back (or to share code with the other amiga platforms). and we are also talking about a commercially dead platform here (in any real sense, im sure many will not agree) where people quite often ditch projects and are never to be seen again, so I do think open source can help in some cases.
I see where you're going with your points, but I don't really agree with them.
Regarding your point about the Amiga being commercially dead, I guess that really depends on what you mean. If you're saying that it's impossible to make any money on the Amiga platform anymore, then I disagree. But if you're saying that it's not yet possible to make substantial (substantial as taken to mean a fortune - millions) on an Amiga project then I do agree.
But Amiga developers aren't stupid either. I'm sure they are under no illusions about how much money they could be expected to make on their project.
But does this mean they should give it away for free? Remember, they've just committed a huge amount of precious time to the project. If they can make a tenner from it, or a few hundred, or a few thousand, as a tiny amount of compensation for their efforts, then should they not be allowed to do that? And should we not be greatful?
I don't know if the developer(s) are planning to charge any money for their Firefox work (closed source doesn't necessarily mean that) but whatever they decide to do, it really is their decision. As a user, it's our decision whether to support their project or not (in terms of buying or using it), but we have no right to critisize the licence they decide to use when we've not invested any time at all in the project's development.
AH
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I'm getting the impression that you're one of those people who believe that software writers have an obligation to release their work on an open source licence and that to do it any other way is somehow incorrect, unfair and unacceptable.
The author is indeed totally entitled to his decision, as long as it follows the original licence, and opensource extremists are annoying.
That being said, when it involves a plain port where the contribution of the porter will only represent a very small fraction of the original code (which is especially true in the case of Timberwolf), i think it's rather inelegant from the porter to keep as much closed as possible (even if the licence allows it).
And i wonder why everyone thinks Firefox is an "incredible amount of work", too. There's not *that* much to do once you have implemented the platform layers, which are rather standard (memory, thread, IO, events, network, gfx layer using cairo, ...)
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But does this mean they should give it away for free? Remember, they've just committed a huge amount of precious time to the project. If they can make a tenner from it, or a few hundred, or a few thousand, as a tiny amount of compensation for their efforts, then should they not be allowed to do that? And should we not be greatful?
Because they are using code that others put 1000x more time into and managed to release the code which they rely on or there would be no browser x y and z, and so it makes no sense to keep the "Amiga" bits closed, for the reason I think so other "Amiga" platforms can't benefit from it.
[edit] + ^what fab said
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Because I put a lot of time into developing on open projects, benefit greatly from open source in general in the software I run (and have the ability to fix it), and dislike the general attitude with amiga development, excluding AROS, where the others do their best to not share any code. There have been plenty of things in the Amiga world that if they had been open source, the situation would now be better. From Filesystems to tcp/ip stacks, to browsers.
You put forwards a good argument. I don't necessarily disagree with your preference for open source - in fact I share it, as I have already mentioned.
But your preference for open source does not give you the right to critisize a closed source project. The only thing it gives you is the right to invest your own time in a project (Firefox?) and then you'll be able to choose the licence yourself.
Let's take another example. Let's look at the new accelerators recently released by Individual Computers. Very nice kit to have for the classic Amiga, I'm sure you'll agree. And one person in particular invested a massive amount of time to bring the project to fruition - not just in terms of the time spent on that individual project, but also the time spent on other projects that put him in the position to be capable of developing an Amiga accelerator in the first place.
So why didn't he release the source code for it? And why not the schematics? And hell, while we're on the subject where are the PCB layouts?
He hasn't released them. Has he got a bad attitude?
Now, I know what you're going to say. None of his work is based on open source, so it's only fair that he releases it as closed source?
Okay. But that's no different to what is being done on the Firefox project. Only the parts that are new are closed.
AH
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And i wonder why everyone thinks Firefox is an "incredible amount of work", too. There's not *that* much to do once you have implemented the platform layers, which are rather standard (memory, thread, IO, events, gfx layer using cairo, ...)
Well, that being the case, anyone else is free to invest their own time on the project and make the licence decision for themselves.
AH
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I guess what I'm really trying to fight here is the opinion that all software should be open source. There seems to be this idea that software is valueless, and should be free. It also seems that a lot of people view software development as easy and not worth paying for. After all, if you can learn C in 24 hours how hard can it be?
Absolute rubbish of course - as I'm sure most if not all people in this forum would agree. Throw the 24 hour book away and be prepared for a 10 year time investment (10 years to excel at it, not 10 years before you can start doing any projects).
AH.
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Well, that being the case, anyone else is free to invest their own time on the project and make the licence decision for themselves.
yeh, well that's how it would be in Amiga land. let there be 3 different Firefox projects then.
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yeh, well that's how it would be in Amiga land. let there be 3 different Firefox projects then.
There doesn't have to be 3, there only has to be 1. But if you're so outraged by the author's licence decision, then the only thing you have a right to do is commit your own time to the work and then release it under any licence you wish. That's the only point I'm trying to make. And on that note I think I'm going to agree to disagree as I've made my points and it's pretty pointless to just argue them back and forth - time being the most precious of my assets you understand. :)
AH
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If you get 90% of your work done for you in the way of an open source base, then contribute 10% but refuse to release your contribution...
Thats just kind of funny to me. If you want to SELL a browser, then write a browser, don't port an open source one and expect to make money from your port, yet thats whats happening here.
I also agree that not releasing it as open means more people will also redo work you've already done for morphos or aros ports.
There would be alot more software accross all 3 camps if people shared more, but I suppose that will never happen.
For the record, I full support the bounty systems, I just think they should specify once paid the bounty you share your work so others can benefit, or people can continue the work if you as an author choose to stop developing your project.
Steven
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If you get 90% of your work done for you in the way of an open source base, then contribute 10% but refuse to release your contribution...
The proportion would rather be 99% - 1% (or probably less, in fact).
But that work has a value and it's not trivial either. So if the license allows to keep it closed, so be it. It's just a bit greedy from my POV. :)
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If you get 90% of your work done for you in the way of an open source base, then contribute 10% but refuse to release your contribution...
Thats just kind of funny to me.
If 90% of the work was done by a team of 100 developers, and 10% of the work was done by an individual who invested a huge amount of time on it, does that change your opinion at all?
AH
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Has anyone bothered to contact Hyperion to see if they will allow Timberwolf to be ported to there chosen platform? There seems to be allot of speculation being tossed around as if they won't release it?
The bounty license says that they have to forfeit the source code if they do not show active development or release a new version after initial release within a 12 month time frame.
In other words as long as TIMBERWOLF is being developed.... i.e. TIMBERWOLF on AmigaOS, TIMBERWOLF on AROS etc etc etc.
Just my two cents worth.
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The bounty license says that they have to forfeit the source code if they do not show active development or release a new version after initial release within a 12 month time frame.
Well I don't think this actually has anything to do with Hyperion, apart from the fact that a Hyperion developer (or perhaps developers) is working on the project in his spare time?
But if I've understood you correctly, you're saying that the developer must release the source code after a 12 month period of no development activity. So even if he later abandons development, the source code will then be made available anyway.
If that's the case, I really don't see what the problem is.
AH
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@Fairdinkem
I dont think anyone had intention to port Timberwolf... so in my opinion this open vs closed discussion is useless.
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As I intend to continue to use Fab's OWB, Timberwolf is of little significance to me. Without improved Flash support, how many new features does this package bring to the table?
I use Firefox under OSX and Windows, but I don't understand the argument for implementation under Amigoid OS'.
BTW - Thanks for all the improvements to OWB Fab.
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Has anyone bothered to contact Hyperion to see if they will allow Timberwolf to be ported to there chosen platform? There seems to be allot of speculation being tossed around as if they won't release it?
The bounty license says that they have to forfeit the source code if they do not show active development or release a new version after initial release within a 12 month time frame.
In other words as long as TIMBERWOLF is being developed.... i.e. TIMBERWOLF on AmigaOS, TIMBERWOLF on AROS etc etc etc.
Just my two cents worth.
Timberwolf is not a Hyperion project.
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@AppleHammer
Fab is one of the developers of MorphOS, and he is also the developer of Odyssey (previously known as Origyn Web Browser) for MorphOS.
While this browser builds on several open source frameworks, it's not a simple port of something, there is a lot more to it than that. A great deal of work has been put into this project since it started in January 2009 (I think), and this has resulted in a completely new, unique and truly FABulous web browser, that can easily replace Internet Explorer, Firefox, Opera and Chrome on the mainstream platforms, but it is heavily inspired by Ibrowse, done in a 2011 level kind of way, using MUI4, etc, which is making this browser *the ultimate dream browser for any Amigan*. And Fab isn't asking for any money for this. There is no bounty, no registration fee, etc. In fact, in the readme you can read this as a *feature*: "- No PayPal donation needed"!
This doesn't stop Fab from releasing his work as open source, so it can be ported to other systems, like OS4. There is already a porting project going on that will bring the Odyssey browser to the OS4 platform, and to the best of my knowledge, Fab has even helped the OS4 port by giving advice, suggestions, etc.
IMO, this is good spirit!
Then we have the Friedens, who decided to cash in on the former Amizilla bounty, a bounty that originally had as condition that the port should be open sourced so that it would be open for all flavors of Amiga (even AROS and MorphOS), and this is what many people donated to. They are now making some kind of port of the Firefox web browser. They have even managed to change the timberwolf bounty conditions to make it quicker and easier to cash in the money by locking the bounty on an old version of Firefox.
This seems to be "just a port" of the open source Firefox Web Browser, with necessary "Amiga adjustments", hence it probably is heavily based on other peoples work that was released as open source with the ambition/spirit that their work should benefit many, on many platforms. But despite this, the Friedens obviously don't want others in the Amiga world to get access to their Amiga specific part of it, so they are determined to protect everything they can in order to prevent this.
I'm not saying they are doing anything illegal, I'm sure they have right to do this. But is it good spirit?
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@Fairdinkem
I dont think anyone had intention to port Timberwolf... so in my opinion this open vs closed discussion is useless.
Timberwolf on MorphOS would be completely redundant.
And as soon as Odyssey is ported to OS4, timberwolf will be redundant there as well...
:)
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BTW - Thanks for all the improvements to OWB Fab.
It was just updated to version 1.14! (http://www.morphzone.org/news/1882.html) :D
...and it was renamed to Odyssey to keep it from being confused with the OWB ports on OS4 and AROS (so please use the new name to avoid confusion).
Unfortunately, it is still possible to shorten it to OWB though! :lol: :lol: :lol:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UKDgoS6fs18/TFdPZ6q4_bI/AAAAAAAAA54/684I2IoICPc/s400/facepalm.jpg)
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Timberwolf on MorphOS would be completely redundant.
And as soon as Odyssey is ported to OS4, timberwolf will be redundant there as well...
:)
Wow REDUNDANT..... thats a big call.... Don't get me wrong I am a MorphOS user and I think OWB from FAB is excellent as there was need of a decent modern browser due to the lack of development of traditional Amiga browsers i.e. iBrowse etc. OWB fills in the gap but it certainly is not a solution to the need for a full fledged completely modern and fully capable internet browser on all Amiga platforms (AmigaOS, AROS, MorphOS etc) in my humble opinion, despite how awesome Fabs work has been. I instigated a thread on AMIGAWORLD calling for the development of OWB for AmigaOS or the port of Fabs OWB because Joerg had dropped the ball with regards to developing OWB beyond it's current state, and Timberwolf looked to be not eventuating any time soon. I totally welcome and applaud Kas1e, Fab and the team for porting OWB to AmigaOS and I will use it but when Timberwolf arrives it will be hard not to choose it with all it's functionality and compatibility with certain sites that I frequent that OWB does not support plus the plugin features are so powerful.
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Timberwolf is not a Hyperion project.
Frieden brothers what ever.....
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takemehome
Dont forget not only did FAB due original OWB morphos port for Free, but he shared sources with Os4 guys AND even helped them in the porting!
Do you guys think that hyperion guys will help anyone port to morphos? doubtful..
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OWB fills in the gap but it certainly is not a solution to the need for a full fledged completely modern and fully capable internet browser ... in my humble opinion, despite how awesome Fabs work has been.
What does Firefox have that Odyssey doesn't? The only thing I can think of is the plugin feature, and it remains to see how much of a plus that will be on ppc/OS4 anyway. Back when I used Firefox on Windows (before I dumped it in favor of Webkit browser because Firefox being sooo sloooooow and feeling so bulky) I never had the need or want to even look at plugins.
Odyssey on the other hand, is a genuine Amiga browser, that everyone who used Ibrowse takes to their heart immediately, i.e. every Amigan out there. It's always based on the very latest webkit etc, so its HTML5/CSS3 capabilities is top notch. I think this is what will make Odyssey win over an old version of Firefox. I think Amigans will prefer the Amiga browser, especially if it's faster and more capable (which it most certainly will be), no matter the plugin feature of firefox, which honestly isn't that important...
Remember that it's not the crappy ODW on OS4 we are talking about, it's Odyssey...
on all Amiga platforms (AmigaOS, AROS, MorphOS etc)
At least Odyssey is open source, so anyone can port it to the other Amiga platforms. Timberwolf OTOH isn't...
I totally welcome and applaud Kas1e, Fab and the team for porting OWB to AmigaOS and I will use it but when Timberwolf arrives it will be hard not to choose it with all it's functionality and compatibility with certain sites that I frequent that OWB does not support
I have yet to find a site that Odyssey don't show just as good as any of the mainstream browsers on other platforms. If you do, let Fab know and he will look into it, I'm sure of that.
Odyssey *is not* ODW you know, so don't base your opinions of it based on that crappy ODW that's available for OS4.
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takemehome
Dont forget not only did FAB due original OWB morphos port for Free, but he shared sources with Os4 guys AND even helped them in the porting!
Do you guys think that hyperion guys will help anyone port to morphos? doubtful..
I *didn't* forget... (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=653568&postcount=45) ;)
:)
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ear, ear! porting OWB was a huge task while porting FF was/is trivial?
eh, eh, eh ... you guys never cease to amaze me! :-/
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ear, ear! porting OWB was a huge task while porting FF was/is trivial?
eh, eh, eh ... you guys never cease to amaze me! :-/
Well, maybe you should ask yourself why?
The FireFox GUI is entirely built on the XUL layer, so it's indeed much less work to port FireFox. You "just" implement the os-dependant layers like thread/mutex, memory, filesystem, network, input events, windowing system, ... (noone said this work was easy, but the very same work was also done with WebKit/OWB), and then everything above it is for "free", unlike WebKit/OWB where the whole GUI had to be implemented on top of the WebKit framework. But the drawback of the FireFox approach is that you also get a quite alien GUI with embedded menus and so on, not in a very amigaish style (though you can skin FireFox fortunately, but not everything can be done to mimic the original AmigaOS GUI).
So I have no problem saying porting FireFox is less work.
In fact, my guess is most of the work in FireFox/Timberwolf went into having a hardware/accelerated Cairo (to get a descent performance, since everything relies on it) and fighting against some details like event propagation through windows in XUL (clashing with AmigaOS design), and possibly some network stack issues (like thread safety for DNS resolution).
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why didn't you ported it yourself? i'll try to tell you why ... free choises.
What i can't get is why a talented coder like yourself, needs to bash someone else effort.
Leave this low things to the above "clown". It wont help you nor your OS of choise.
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@the bickerers...
For pity's sake, listen to yourselves.
There was a time when having more than one application for a given task was seen as a good thing. For years we had no modern standards compliant browsers and it sucked. Now we have several based WebKit (OWB/Oddysey) and soon gecko Firefox/Timberwolf). There's also NetSurf.
This is a good thing (tm).
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@the bickerers...
For pity's sake, listen to yourselves.
There was a time when having more than one application for a given task was seen as a good thing. For years we had no modern standards compliant browsers and it sucked. Now we have several based WebKit (OWB/Oddysey) and soon gecko Firefox/Timberwolf). There's also NetSurf.
This is a good thing (tm).
Did anyone say it's bad?
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What i can't get is why a talented coder like yourself, needs to bash someone else effort.
And where do you see bashing? I only said what kind of work it represented in both projects.
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ear, ear! porting OWB was a huge task while porting FF was/is trivial?
That depends on the quality of the port. If you add a few ifdefs and type "make" and you get an alien thingie that doesn't use Amiga UI, doesn't use Amiga libraries, doesn't use Amiga locale, is slow etcetera... you'll get a poor port.
Examples of poorly done ports:
OS4 OWB ports (specially the first ones that relied on SDL)
Firefox for OS4
Examples of excellent ports:
Netsurf for OS4
Odissey for MorphOS
ATM Odissey runs rings around all existing Amiga browsers so you can safely say that porting it took much more work than porting Firefox.
BTW coder skills also affect the quality of the port and Fab is a great coder and his products are great too (MPlayer, Odissey...). His two most famous ports are probably the best ports done to any platform.
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Crumb, nobody is arguing about Fab skills (everybody knows that).
and it is for this exact fact thats he doesn't need to repeat it ad nauseam.
We already know.
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That depends on the quality of the port. If you add a few ifdefs and type "make" and you get an alien thingie that doesn't use Amiga UI, doesn't use Amiga libraries, doesn't use Amiga locale, is slow etcetera... you'll get a poor port.
Examples of poorly done ports:
OS4 OWB ports (specially the first ones that relied on SDL)
Firefox for OS4
Examples of excellent ports:
Netsurf for OS4
Odissey for MorphOS
ATM Odissey runs rings around all existing Amiga browsers so you can safely say that porting it took much more work than porting Firefox.
BTW coder skills also affect the quality of the port and Fab is a great coder and his products are great too (MPlayer, Odissey...). His two most famous ports are probably the best ports done to any platform.
I agree, and what some people seems to miss when they are comparing it to others, is that Odyssey isn't "just a port", it's a lot of *development* on top of that as well. That's why it's so good and unique, and simply can't be compared to other "OWB" or such. They aren't even in the same league. Odyssey is the only, real, full-fledged *Amiga browser*, the only of its kind...
:)
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@the bickerers...
For pity's sake, listen to yourselves.
There was a time when having more than one application for a given task was seen as a good thing. For years we had no modern standards compliant browsers and it sucked. Now we have several based WebKit (OWB/Oddysey) and soon gecko Firefox/Timberwolf). There's also NetSurf.
This is a good thing (tm).
I think the original fight was about Timberwolf not being open source what is irrelevant (to many ?) because there are other browsers already for other Amiga platforms... There is not much interest to start other Firefox porting projects. Maybe in the future if someone finds interest.
Personally I am missing Java because crappy and poor Danish bank sites coded by retards cant work without it :-P
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I think the original fight was about Timberwolf not being open source what is irrelevant (to many ?) because there are other browsers already for other Amiga platforms... There is not much interest to start other Firefox porting projects. Maybe in the future if someone finds interest.
Personally I am missing Java because crappy and poor Danish bank sites coded by retards cant work without it :-P
Well, I did not read such thread in a long time and I see people are still fighting over which Amigoid OS have better browser, while all the Amiga incarcinations lack serious applications and cool games to make the Amigas useful and fun in the current environment.
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>Odyssey is the only, real, full-fledged *Amiga browser*, the only of its kind...
You're forgetting AWeb there...
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>Odyssey is the only, real, full-fledged *Amiga browser*, the only of its kind...
You're forgetting AWeb there...
Yeah Aweb, hehe...
;)
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Regarding your point about the Amiga being commercially dead, I guess that really depends on what you mean.
Amiga has been dead commercially for a decade now. It has nothing to do with anyone meaning anything, its just a cold hard fact. Having a Firefox-port does not revive Amiga either, nothing will. Its more of a nice commodity than a part of marketing plan, something for the hobbyists. Certainly not the most important thing atm, not even close.
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Hooligan
You are completely wrong in what you are saying. FF 4 port could attract new users. How this can be denied is beyond me.. obviously nothing "commercial" will come from the platform.. (and by "commercial" i think you mean "industrial" )
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:rolleyes:
A firefox port is a good thing, not a bad one. As amiga users we have to pick and choose your battles. You don't like it? Fine, there are other options but your negative and snide comments fall on deaf ears of the developers.
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Having a modern browser for PPC/OS4 will nto bring "Amiga" back from the dead by any means.
Days are long gone, sorry - and yeah, I was one of the first in line to buy a SAM. I enjoy it greatly - for what it does. For what it lacks, the price is still hard to swallow. That being said, I still use it daily and love the little thing.
A modern browser would make these systems a little more daily driver.
Know what I did this morning? Checked on the BBS, running on the SAM. All fine. Thought I would check my email and feeds while still on the SAM, realized once again the current browser offerings absolutely puke the minute they hit anything heavy with "Web 2.0" content. You can no more do "common" internet things on it than you can a 4 year old deep fryer, lol. If you want something to use for daily usage atm, go MorphOS.
Grabbed my iphone - back in business.
Yes, OS4 NEEDS DESPERATELY a modern browser, but it's not going to bring us back to the glory days.
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@Duce
Not trying to say that. Not even making MorphOS, OS 4 and classic x86 will. We need to take small steps and present a viable alternative. I know 3 people who would buy an X1000, if OS4 had more modern features. I demoed a SAM440ep, interesting but underwhelming compared to the A1. If the X1k drops in price from interest and buying then I will buy one, if it ever hits >1200. I think having a modern browser will help us, and I think people that do not use OS4 or have not demoed it should keep their mouths shut, MOS already has a great browser but I'm gunning for both camps.
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A firefox port is a good thing, not a bad one.
Nobody has said it's a bad thing for OS4 to have more browsers. On that platform, the Internet situation is desperate...
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Hooligan
You are completely wrong in what you are saying. FF 4 port could attract new users. How this can be denied is beyond me.. obviously nothing "commercial" will come from the platform.. (and by "commercial" i think you mean "industrial" )
Oh, but it's commercially dead allright, and some tens or hundreds new users ("inbred" from other parts of "the Amiga market" (cough cough - did that guy just say "market"???) that is equally commercially dead) won't change that fact. The fact that someone charge money for something doesn't make it commercially viable, in Amiga-land it just means that someone will hopefully cover their costs and have money for an occasional pizza with a few beers. Everything today is relying on volunteer work after the daytime work is over from people seeing this as their hobby. Nothing wrong in this though, we should be glad as long as people like Fab (and many others) continue to invest their free time into the platform! :)
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Hooligan
You are completely wrong in what you are saying. FF 4 port could attract new users. How this can be denied is beyond me.. obviously nothing "commercial" will come from the platform.. (and by "commercial" i think you mean "industrial" )
Why would a port of FF attract new users? You can run FF for free on a number of platforms already, on hardware that is readily available for well under the $$$ you would sink into an OS4 system. You don't even have to get into the fact that Timberwolf is not going to be keeping up with FF, and maybe is not even going to be maintained much at all - the alpha has been around since what, 2009 and the Friedens just recently decided to ****can it and start over. Why would such a version of FF be attractive to anyone? Because it's fun to struggle with things that don't quite work right, take forever to get fixed, and new features available on every other platform don't get incorporated?
Get a grip, man.
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Is it just me, or are a few MorpthOS fans getting a bit high and mighty.
To me its as simple as
Timberwolf is great news for AmigaOS4 users/fans and
Odyssey is great news for MorphOS users/fans.
so whats the problem?
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Is it just me, or are a few MorpthOS fans getting a bit high and mighty.
To me its as simple as
Timberwolf is great news for AmigaOS4 users/fans and
Odyssey is great news for MorphOS users/fans.
so whats the problem?
The problem is that Firefox port is still very alpha and some people think that a quick port like Firefox is comparable to a proper browser like Odissey. Firefox on any amiga platform is good news but comparing it to a proper browser is not a very balanced view
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Is it just me, or are a few MorpthOS fans getting a bit high and mighty.
To me its as simple as
Timberwolf is great news for AmigaOS4 users/fans and
Odyssey is great news for MorphOS users/fans.
so whats the problem?
Odyssey is running on morphos for many time and running fine, timberwolf is another project full of promises without any reality, thats the "problem".
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Hooligan
You are completely wrong in what you are saying. FF 4 port could attract new users. How this can be denied is beyond me.. obviously nothing "commercial" will come from the platform.. (and by "commercial" i think you mean "industrial" )
I dont think that the friedens are able to make a really usable and stable firefox, same as other platforms have.they can maybe hold some more OS4 Fans by giving hope of a firefox.OS4 is far behind, and when there was not the big firefox announce, then only OS4 OWB can not hold users on OS4 i think.
I never see from the friedens a rock solid and complete program or game Port mainted they do in their free time.Can you tell me 1 ?
on amigaworld this was explain more.here is a link.
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=29160&forum=2&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=0#499600
the friedens begin before OWB silent a firefox port(the amizilla was opensource and work too a little), it work a little on OS4, they fail to get it stable, and Andrea take over firefox.He fail too to make it stable and he deicde to do OWB.
then we can see since OWB for MOS have more features as OS4 OWB, suddenly they do a big announce that a firefox should come and collect money for it.
but i see this only as a poker trick, so people inverst money in OS4 instead of other systems.
now it seem near 2 years ago and OS4 still have no stable working firefox Port.
and if somebody announce alone a closed source firefox is not very good moral.many people have spend work in firefox, that it is easy portable to other platforms for free.the amizilla sources were here
I dont know any other than friedens that make out of this firefox work a closed source ripoff
If the friedens can compile it since long time, but it not run stable show me that something is bad in OS4 or are not able to do that.if a OS dev really like to use a firefox on his OS and decide to do a Port, it cant take so long time in compileable but unstable phase.
I only see in my experience, when can compile a Unix program, it run normaly stable.
remember, those portable programs are written, to use very few OS functions, so there need not much functions for AOS add.
remember also.this programs are written that a user can compile the program and when it compile the user can be sure, that the program work in same way stable as on other platforms.
but when you look on OS4 you see always long develop time.
remember how fast Blender for MOS was here and if i remember correct MOS have a actual 2.5 blender now.
On OS4 dev go slow and blender is old.
same happen with firefox.
so wy should OS4 attract non OS4 Fans, when they have no actual firefox...
I see the OS4 firefox only as a teaser that users leave not OS4 and spend money in other systems.....
EDIT:
I write this post with a firefox 5 Final.I update it some weeks.i dont see wy i should use firefox 4.firefox 5 is tell as faster....
EDIT2:
and if a actual port can not do with a simple new compile, or in at least 1-2 hours of work, then the Port is really bad.
and this happen on very much OS4 Ports, so no OS4 user can simple compile newest sources and it work stable.So many OS4 Ports are outdate.
The updates of Linux distributions, are not done from developers, they are done from users, or automatic
when see the MOS OWB, this is a good port, because it can update to newest webkit core.
and when remember MOS OWB is much more amiga specific as timberwolf and also MOS have much less Unix in core as OS4.
So in theory OS4 port must be faster, but it seem the opposite is true
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Come on guys give them a break, they are working on peanuts to try and bring a much needed app/feature to their chosen platform, it may not turn out to be the right decision to port such a large complex program as Firefox and it might of been easier to help develop OWB OS4 version more or start a new browser from scratch but this is what they choose to do. And I think any effort like this should be commended...ON ANY AMIGA inspired system.
Plus all this talk of Odyssey being better than Timberwolf is completely nuts when Timberwolf is not even past Alpha stage, but even at this early version it basically works (just) hopefully the rewrite will massively improve performance and stability, at least give them a chance to get a proper release out.
Then I guess if you still feel the need to bash people spare time efforts to try and help befit the OS4 user, then be my guess. (sad gits).
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Come on guys give them a break, they are working on peanuts to try and bring a much needed app/feature to their chosen platform.
now the friedens try to get firefox run for OS4 overall since 5-6 years.How much years should wait now for a stable firefox ?
I dont know anyone that want port firefox that have need such a long time to make a alpha Version stable.
its easy to make a working alpha firefox out of the amizilla sources and announce.nspr ist not change since years.but sure now that the friedens want do their own firefox, wy should another continue work on amizilla.that the friedens can catch the work and get the money...
amizilla have problem to debug, and i am sure with enhanced ixemul thread safe, all can work better.but i do not try it.I really hate when there is no working together possible, and double work is need.
same is with the open office announces for OS4.
but the guys on other AOS are too brave to announce such a thing when they dont know if they can really reach the goal in acceptable time alone
But i think when other AOS announce nice things, then the OS4 announce more nicer things.
for example what happen with Real 3d and candy factory or Dopus magellan on OS4 ?
all this stuff was in the early days a hope that OS4 is better than other AOS, so more see hope in OS4 and spend money in OS4 instead of other AOS.
I see in OS4 lots of the opensource code, is make close source for OS4, but on other hand OS4 devs can look and or use AROS code or other code.
parts in OS4 that are opensource and make close source are newlib, Cairo, Python, firefox.
I think without OS4, in amiga land is lots better working together possible and other developers produce better OS features for the given money as the OS4 devs.and this help the amiga to attracht more user, if a AOS have more features and does not cost so much money.
it does not help when lots money flow into a system that is too expensive.
thats same as if you want invest lots money to trainee lame horses, they never can reach any price....
but OS4 survive since long time and get money, the OS4 devs should really really thanks alot that they have such Fans that support them.
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Let's not forget here:
a) The Friedens are very busy on the OS itself. If they don't work on it, they get yelled at.
b) When they started for the first time on FF, the OS wasn't ready.
c) Then when the OS was ready, they started and got a working build out of it. At this point FF went to the next major version. Therefore if they continued work, they'd get yelled at because FF was already outdated and therefore useless.
d) Now the OS is ready and FF isn't going to go to a new version, they've been able to get good progress, and will release a demo shortly, they say.
It's all very well saying "oh they're useless because they can't even get FF running", but you're massively underestimating the work involved and the complexity of the situation they're in. Odyssey may be very good, but the writer didn't also have to keep another 4 Amiga camps happy at the same time, did he?
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Let's not forget here:
a) The Friedens are very busy on the OS itself. If they don't work on it, they get yelled at.
b) When they started for the first time on FF, the OS wasn't ready.
c) Then when the OS was ready, they started and got a working build out of it. At this point FF went to the next major version. Therefore if they continued work, they'd get yelled at because FF was already outdated and therefore useless.
d) Now the OS is ready and FF isn't going to go to a new version, they've been able to get good progress, and will release a demo shortly, they say.
It's all very well saying "oh they're useless because they can't even get FF running", but you're massively underestimating the work involved and the complexity of the situation they're in. Odyssey may be very good, but the writer didn't also have to keep another 4 Amiga camps happy at the same time, did he?
Timberwolf is for OS4 only, there is no "keep another 4(?) Amiga camps happy". Also if you think the Friedens give a **** about anything other than OS4, you need to up the meds. They would be perfectly happy if real Amiga, MOS and AROS all sank to the bottom of the ocean.
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Odyssey may be very good, but the writer didn't also have to keep another 4 Amiga camps happy at the same time, did he?
Well, I provided OWB sources and gave my help to port it to OS4. And if AROS people are willing to (and that Zune is up to the task), i have no problem doing the same for it.
As for a 68k port, considering the requirements of WebKit, I'm not sure it makes much sense, except for UAE users, but is it really needed? They can just use the browser from the host machine then. :)
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Come on guys give them a break, they are working on peanuts to try and bring a much needed app/feature to their chosen platform... (sad gits).
don't bother with the usual naysayers mate. I use Firefox and Thunderbird daily on my PC notebook & looking forward to using them with Amiga OS4.x too:)
let the whiners whine and the doers do
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Timberwolf is for OS4 only, there is no "keep another 4(?) Amiga camps happy". Also if you think the Friedens give a **** about anything other than OS4, you need to up the meds. They would be perfectly happy if real Amiga, MOS and AROS all sank to the bottom of the ocean.
Sorry, I didn't mean that. To me the Amiga camp is the OS4 crew, nothing else.
What I meant was that some parts of the OS4 users think the OS is most important (and require development on that), some think the browser is most important - so work should be on that. Some think OpenGL, some think USB2....
Point is, whatever they do, there's only a few of them and a LOT of things to work on, and people will always complain when they're not working on whatever it is they think they should be.
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USB2 , that still makes me laugh.
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Well, I provided OWB sources and gave my help to port it to OS4. And if AROS people are willing to (and that Zune is up to the task), i have no problem doing the same for it.
As for a 68k port, considering the requirements of WebKit, I'm not sure it makes much sense, except for UAE users, but is it really needed? They can just use the browser from the host machine then. :)
Amithlon users would love a port of Odyssey browser! :)
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the amizilla sources were here
I dont know any other than friedens that make out of this firefox work a closed source ripoff
The Amizilla source never exists so your conspiracy theory (ripoff) is just wrong
If the friedens can compile it since long time, but it not run stable show me that something is bad in OS4 or are not able to do that.if a OS dev really like to use a firefox on his OS and decide to do a Port, it cant take so long time in compileable but unstable phase.
That's wrong too, the Friedens bros release only an alpha version and then after a while they decide to stop it waiting for the 4.0 official release
I only see in my experience, when can compile a Unix program, it run normaly stable.
Do you think that port a program such Firefox will be just a compile and go ?
remember how fast Blender for MOS was here and if i remember correct MOS have a actual 2.5 blender now.
Blender on OS4 work just fine, the reason why on MorphOS you have also 2.5 is only because the Blender author release also a new Phyton for pubblic usage
To use Blender 2.5 under OS4 you must wait for an OS4 update instead, that's it
So many OS4 Ports are outdate.
Outdate port ?
Please give me a list
when see the MOS OWB, this is a good port, because it can update to newest webkit core.
Even Reaction OWB can be synchronized with the webkit port.
Aniway OWB MUI run also on AmigaOS4, the port is ready and done
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Well, I provided OWB sources and gave my help to port it to OS4. And if AROS people are willing to (and that Zune is up to the task), i have no problem doing the same for it.
As for a 68k port, considering the requirements of WebKit, I'm not sure it makes much sense, except for UAE users, but is it really needed? They can just use the browser from the host machine then. :)
there is also natami here.now 2 more developers get a board.peterk (i guess its peter keuneke)do btw some fpu stuff on winuae and i write some mails with him also with AFA or iconbefast, i dont think that he make vapor announces.so seem natami can get reality.
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=41108
I am a lazy boy, but if there is a browser possible in a few hours for AOS, which can play videos and most site work, i like to use it on winuae.
You have speedup OWB, maybe it is faster now as netsurf.
Can somebody who have MOS OWB and a Peg with 1 GHZ CPU tell what render time this page need ?
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=649724&postcount=146
Can also tell time when page is offline
Here are some values of 68k netsurf and OS4 netsurf on some machines.
@klx300r
>let the whiners whine and the doers do
The problem is the doers do nothing visible.they only do a big hype.A amizilla alpha was here since several years, so whats on OS4 side currently is no progress.
Only the Marketing about firefox have increase alot, since MOS OWB is better than OS4 OWB.
and people as me tell that they think this is only simular as a poker trick.
maybe this motivate the friedens to show that they are really able to do that and do not just simple poker tricks to get more money and users for OS4.
same is real3d and dopus magellan, candy factory, that should come only for OS4, i see that too as simple poker tricks to show users, OS4 have better future, so they buy it
if timberwolf never get to a stable version its waste time.
nobody want use a buggy firefox.and a buggy and old timberwolf does not attract more users i think
And there are many guys that dont like a system that is promote with announces that seems like simple poker tricks.guys think the devs have no morale.and maybe dont want OS4.
For me this many unrealistic announces are a main reason, wy i never ever want use OS4.luckily there are other solutions..
same is on the X1000 too
Or can you explain wy in dec. 2009 Hyperion want release a full system before summer, and suddenly when the time is over they call for 100 betatesters that should buy this Hardware with preorder.
wy have they not know that before release 100 betatesters are need to test the Hardware better ?
What do you think ?
on other side, when look on acube, there hardware is slow and expensive, but i think their marketing ok
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You have speedup OWB, maybe it is faster now as netsurf.
You're comparing apples and oranges.
Can somebody who have MOS OWB and a Peg with 1 GHZ CPU tell what render time this page need ?
What you're doing has nothing to do with benchmarking. What you're mostly measuring is the network latencies (DNS and connect, data transmission) for specific user at the specific moment in time. Also the server load the specific point in time can affect the result. To get any meaningful results the test must be of loading a page offline, with cache fully cleared before each test. But of course you know all this as you have been told numerous times already.
If you want to benchmark browsers (or specific subsystems of them in most cases), see:
http://clients.futuremark.com/peacekeeper/
http://www.webkit.org/perf/sunspider/sunspider.html
http://v8.googlecode.com/svn/data/benchmarks/v6/run.html
http://dromaeo.com/
http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/csstest.html
Oh wait! Netsurf can't run most of those test because it doesn't do javascript...
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Timberwolf is for OS4 only, there is no "keep another 4(?) Amiga camps happy". Also if you think the Friedens give a **** about anything other than OS4, you need to up the meds. They would be perfectly happy if real Amiga, MOS and AROS all sank to the bottom of the ocean.
I hate people who tells what other people thinks. How the h*ll do you know what they think? Aiming at becoming the troll-master, are you? ;-)
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Timberwolf is for OS4 only, there is no "keep another 4(?) Amiga camps happy". Also if you think the Friedens give a **** about anything other than OS4, you need to up the meds. They would be perfectly happy if real Amiga, MOS and AROS all sank to the bottom of the ocean.
I hate people who tells what other people thinks. How the h*ll do you know what they think? Aiming at becoming the troll-master, are you? ;-)
Oh, but the accumulated comments, public proclamations, actions, etc from the Hyperion pack over the last decade gives quite a clear picture you know... ;)
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I hate people who tells what other people thinks. How the h*ll do you know what they think? Aiming at becoming the troll-master, are you? ;-)
From statements the Friedens have made in the past, unless they were lying. At least they haven't gotten to the point where they say they want people to die in a fire, like Rigo.
Edit: And like TMHG mentioned, actions. This Timberwolf browser is a good example - the Friedens don't plan to make it open source, and I'm sure they would be the first to say "We did something and you didn't so you don't deserve it, port it yourself". Meanwhile you've got people like Fab, kase1, and Karlos who actually do write code across platforms. Where do you think the split in the communities comes from? Primarily from the Friedens and Hyperion. I never see the AROS, MOS and Amiga guys arguing about each other, it's always OS4 vs. Everybody else - and it's all down to the crappy attitudes of the gang at Hyperion. Take off the blinders.
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Once again a verbose thread on OS4 or major os4 software and not one post from any rep or dev from Hyperion themselves. its quite amusing and sad. Its amazing these guys inherited the "Amiga" legacy and the Morph guys are the bad guys when they have delivered miles more...
oh and JJ you are right "usb2" as a big feature is quite lame. Should be usb3 especially when you are selling a $3000 X1000! wtf you gonna have PATA and usb1? Running outdated browsers and SuperNes emus?
And all this Gallium talk.. ya right! Just like all those awesome "SNAP drivers" lmfao! bafa has points with Candy Factory, Aladdin, Gorky 17, etc etc ad naseum...
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Once again a verbose thread on OS4 or major os4 software and not one post from any rep or dev from Hyperion themselves. its quite amusing and sad. Its amazing these guys inherited the "Amiga" legacy and the Morph guys are the bad guys when they have delivered miles more...
oh and JJ you are right "usb2" as a big feature is quite lame. Should be usb3 especially when you are selling a $3000 X1000! wtf you gonna have PATA and usb1? Running outdated browsers and SuperNes emus?
And all this Gallium talk.. ya right! Just like all those awesome "SNAP drivers" lmfao! bafa has points with Candy Factory, Aladdin, Gorky 17, etc etc ad naseum...
Well Mag, look at it this way. We'll soon will have Powerbook support, one day we may have G5 support, and they (may) get a really expensive computer.
It's a "real" Amiga. yay! An Amiga for the Special Ed crowd!
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Can somebody who have MOS OWB and a Peg with 1 GHZ CPU tell what render time this page need ?
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=649724&postcount=146
As Piru and many more explained, this is wrong to benchmark this way, but if you want a number, i can give you one anyway. With my not so good inet link, OWB loads the site in about 4 seconds, and reloads in 2 seconds. Of course, i disabled Javascript and Flash to be in the "same" conditions as netsurf.
And let me tell you again, the inet latency in this case *is* important. It might not be that much important on 68k where there's also much more time spent in displaying/parsing/decoding, but once you have a faster machine, inet latency becomes the bottleneck.
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As Piru and many more explained, this is wrong to benchmark this way, but if you want a number, i can give you one anyway. With my not so good inet link, OWB loads the site in about 4 seconds, and reloads in 2 seconds. Of course, i disabled Javascript and Flash to be in the "same" conditions as netsurf.
And let me tell you again, the inet latency in this case *is* important. It might not be that much important on 68k where there's also much more time spent in displaying/parsing/decoding, but once you have a faster machine, inet latency becomes the bottleneck.
Are this test on a Peg 1 GHZ ?
You know, for 68k ixemul is gprof profiler here and you can see in the profile how much inet influence a page have, or what functions cost most time.
Too bad that MOS and OS4 have no gprof, so you can verify better what code cost most time and internet have no influence, the response times of inet access are really fast.
If you think inet access slow down, you can ofcourse do the test and show the page from harddrive.
I know this benchmark is not perfect to compare, but i dont want buy a OS4 system with all hardware and benchmark it myself.
Its always hard from OS4 users to get some benchmark results.And i am not a guy that ask users again and again to make benchmarks.
The results of classic, SAM and pegasus are all from same user done on same day and simular time.so inet access you can compare good.
that inet access is not important in time, you can also see because Pegasos G4 1 GHZ is 2.3* faster as SAM 667 MHZ with netsurf
this fit the blender benchmark, here Peg is too around 2* faster.And because the G4 have same much better performance /MHZ in the netsurf test and blender test, can be 99% sure inet is no speedbrake.
maybe you have a SDL OWB somewhere that use no Cairo, and can test what values it reach.
because i remember firefox was on my PC very fast, and as soon they add Cairo support it go lots slower.I have a PCIe gforce 6600 Card.so not the slowest.
I hope you not understand my test wrong.I dont want say 68k and SDL is the best system, i only want test with that test, if the port run at optimal speed.
most intresting is for me the speed of Acorn risc OS Version.This use no Cairo too.
maybe here is somebody who can do the test on a Acorn Risc Machine.
@Piru
>Oh wait! Netsurf can't run most of those test because it doesn't do javascript...
this tests have nothing to do with real world pages.No page do extensive java script access or this what the tests test.when i look in profiler, most time cost CSS layout, text and image render.Is there a benchmark here that test CSS layout speed ?
this links are synthetic benchmarks.
same as landmark mips or some else for CPU.
I prefer real world benches on often used pages.
so my test you can see simular to blender speed test.
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The results of classic, SAM and pegasus are all from same user done on same day and simular time.so inet access you can compare good.
You think the internet connection is working constantly all the time? Are you that uninformed? Latencies can vary from second to second due to multitude of reasons, some client and some server side. Benchmarking page load on live inet connection can never produce any reasonable benchmark results, even if you run the tests minutes apart.
that inet access is not important in time, you can also see because Pegasos G4 1 GHZ is 2.3* faster as SAM 667 MHZ with netsurf
this fit the blender benchmark, here Peg is too around 2* faster.And because the G4 have same much better performance /MHZ in the netsurf test and blender test, can be 99% sure inet is no speedbrake.
Correlation does not imply causation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation)
This is just one of the fallacies you seem to be blind to.
@Piru
Is there a benchmark here that test CSS layout speed ?
Yes.
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You think the internet connection is working constantly all the time? Are you that uninformed? Latencies can vary from second to second due to multitude of reasons, some client and some server side. Benchmarking page load on live inet connection can never produce any reasonable benchmark results, even if you run the tests minutes apart.
Correlation does not imply causation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation)
This is just one of the fallacies you seem to be blind to.
@Piru
Yes.
I tell the users that they should do every test several times and only if the test result differ not more than 1-2 sec they should use it.
I tell the users to load also a page offline and test speed.
But i always dont understand wy guys only tell this results are total wrong INSTEAD POST values from show the page from ram disk or maybe harddrive.
I can save a page complete, to my 120 GB SSD with sandforce controller.Its fast.
I notice only that 1.1 sec the page need more time to load from inet.
I pay for cheapest DSL 6000 connection, because slower is not cheaper.
But I have a DSL 3000 Connection, because cable is not good for DSL 6000.So my inet is lot slower.
my firefox results are with java enable.so more slow, because more data need load.
I am too lazy to disable it.i stop time until the reload button come again, this indicate on firefox page is complete load.
My results are 2.6 sec load from inet with firefox 5
1.5 sec load from harddrive.
But with faster DSL it get faster so inet time is maybe 0.5- 0.6 sec.
EDIT:
I have now test it too, times are same.
osnews is a fast and constant response server.
>>Is there a benchmark here that test CSS layout speed ?
>Yes.
what test it is ?
maybe it is possible to run on netsurf.
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I tell the users that they should do every test several times and only if the test result differ not more than 1-2 sec they should use it.
That doesn't help. The inet connection can be slow for long period of times. Or not. It's just impossible to tell. The inet connection is the largest random variable and thus is must be eliminated to get any sensible data.
From rest of you reply I see that you still are unable to understand the problem. I give up. But if you bring your flawed benchmarks up again I will keep on pointing out that they're completely pointless.
what test it is ?
The one that says "csstest" perhaps?
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Better off testing speeds via a LAN setup, entirely off the Internet for some consistent benchmarks.
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@bernd:
i dont know how difficult it is to test with locally saved page? you can even send the same to other users to test to have dependable results. why argue about that all so much?
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@bernd:
i dont know how difficult it is to test with locally saved page? you can even send the same to other users to test to have dependable results. why argue about that all so much?
as i have written before, i tell the users to test it offline but nobody do.I also accept if 68k do the test on internet and the fast platforms can do that with local saved pages.68k SDL Version is over 3* faster, so save internet access does also not help much on other platform i am 99.99% sure.
But fab give me time values of OWB only for inet acces and no time for local saved page.
or are MOS /OS4 browsers not able to save a page local with all images and other stuff ?
only this inet values i get.and here can see that G4 1 GHZ Peg is around 2* faster as a 667 MHZ SAM, same faster as blender bench, which do btw not load data from internet
So my feeling is, these guys search only for a excuse that ixemul SDL build is not fastest per 100 MHZ, because it doesnt fit the bash without Facts again SDL and ixemul programs some do.also the bash that 68k Compiler produce slow code, seem with that benchmark results wrong, when such a slow small cache and memory performance system as a classic with 040 or 060 can reach this good values / MHZ
And i am sure, when do tests with local files, then there is no such easy excuse possible, so maybe nobody do that.
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as i have written before, i tell the users to test it offline but nobody do.
How about if you'd provide the test kit with instructions how to use it? If you don't, everyone will do random thing x and you will get totally random results. I know I know, you're 99% sure everyone is doing it correctly...
The only way to get reliable results would be to run the tests on the same system, with offline content. Anything else is just pointless random guessing about the testing environment for any specific result. Drawing any kind of conclusions from such a random result set is just idiotic.
(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/4936/o490463.jpg)
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How about if you'd provide the test kit with instructions how to use it? If you don't, everyone will do random thing x and you will get totally random results. I know I know, you're 99% sure everyone is doing it correctly...
The only way to get reliable results would be to run the tests on the same system, with offline content. Anything else is just pointless random guessing about the testing environment for any specific result. Drawing any kind of conclusions from such a random result set is just idiotic.
(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/4936/o490463.jpg)
as i told, its no problem, if the MOS or OS4 developers think the test is wrong, they can post time values offline.this cost btw less time, as you spend to write text to me.
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as i told, its no problem, if the MOS or OS4 developers think the test is wrong, they can post time values offline
Sure. Except that each test would be different and thus the values could not be compared against each other.
How hard is it to understand this?
(http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/1/29/129092786498235257.jpg)
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Try to keep it civil folks...
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Sure. Except that each test would be different and thus the values could not be compared against each other.
How hard is it to understand this?
(http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/1/29/129092786498235257.jpg)
Because CSS layout is the main speed problem it doesnt matter if the text is diffrent a little longer or have other images.
try it out if you dont believe.
save the page today to harddrive and save it tomorrow to harddrive or on some other days
you notice speed differ not much.if OS4 Or OWB browser is maybe 70% faster or not(depend on page content) doesnt matter, because 68k SDL was more than 3.3* faster at 100 MHZ
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Because CSS layout is the main speed problem it doesnt matter if the text is diffrent a little longer or have other images.
try it out if you dont believe.
save the page today to harddrive and save it tomorrow to harddrive or on some other days
You do understand that
- the actual content on the pages changes daily if not every minute
- if everyone is to run the test by themselves they might save the page in a different way
There is just no way this can work out. The test kit must be static or the whole exercise is just totally pointless.
I officially give up on you. I'll look into the ignore feature here on amiga.org. There, you're now ignored. Feel free to dwell in your ignorance.
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You do understand that
- the actual content on the pages changes daily if not every minute
- if everyone is to run the test by themselves they might save the page in a different way
There is just no way this can work out. The test kit must be static or the whole exercise is just totally pointless.
I officially give up on you. I'll look into the ignore feature here on amiga.org. There, you're now ignored. Feel free to dwell in your ignorance.
Yes i undertand that, but its only important to get really exact values, if maybe the speed betweeen systems is only 20-80% diffrent.
But we talk about factor of 3.3 and more that the SDL netsurf is faster
so a measure inaccuracy of 80-100 % doesnt matter.
another example. When a Formula 1 car must race between a series 100 ps Car both with good drivers, it doesnt matter if it rain or not, the formula 1 is so much faster, so it win always.
so the series 100ps car can drive on dry course and the Formula 1 car can drive on rainy course.
and many told that ixemul and SDL and 68k compilers are so slow, so the formala 1 is from most call as PPC System.
so when believe the words of the 68k bashers, then PPC must be the one that is 3* faster as 68k at 100 MHZ
You can also look on efika how fast it is.
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I just got the FireFox 6.0 update for OS X.
Hows that FF 4.0 rewrite of Timberwolf coming along?
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I just got the FireFox 6.0 update for OS X.
Hows that FF 4.0 rewrite of Timberwolf coming along?
And only 100mb memory usage when viewing Amiga.org
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And only 100mb memory usage when viewing Amiga.org
Nope. Try 232. :D
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Once again a verbose thread on OS4 or major os4 software and not one post from any rep or dev from Hyperion themselves. its quite amusing and sad. Its amazing these guys inherited the "Amiga" legacy and the Morph guys are the bad guys when they have delivered miles more...
Yes it is quite amusing and sad that you morphOS fans seem to feel the need to pick out flaws and issues with a product you clearly not interested in. And when Odyssey came out how many of you had a nice discussion about all the feature that Fab hard work has done for you
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58734
3 posts, and notice how many OS4 fans jump on and bashed the project or tried to derail the thread?
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Yes it is quite amusing and sad that you morphOS fans seem to feel the need to pick out flaws and issues with a product you clearly not interested in. And when Odyssey came out how many of you had a nice discussion about all the feature that Fab hard work has done for you
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58734
3 posts, and notice how many OS4 fans jump on and bashed the project or tried to derail the thread?
Those few people do more harm than good to Mos, and the Amiga comunity in general. Really sad
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It is really a shame, but I have this brain build in filter, that automatically filters out posts from some users.
If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything. Its a good saying to remember.
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you morphOS fans
Generalizing like that does wonders in building ever wider disparity.
pick out flaws and issues
As for not voicing your concerns even if you feel like something is wrong: I think it is far worse to keep silent than to say something. You may not like what you hear, but often you need to hear it. Sometimes it feels like certain projects are considered so holy that even a whiff of questioning will result in Spanish Inquisition.
notice how many OS4 fans jump on and bashed the project or tried to derail the thread?
As for Odyssey, I hardly can see any point in criticising it. On the other hand Timberwolf is far more susceptible for criticism (for example due to the fact that the target seems to be progressing far faster than the porting process, and the fact that no proper non-alpha release have been made). Undoubtedly some of the criticism is unwarranted, but certainly not all. Once usable Timberwolf has been released there's much less room for criticism.
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Yes it is quite amusing and sad that you morphOS fans seem to feel the need to pick out flaws and issues with a product you clearly not interested in. And when Odyssey came out how many of you had a nice discussion about all the feature that Fab hard work has done for you
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58734
3 posts, and notice how many OS4 fans jump on and bashed the project or tried to derail the thread?
yup always the same old usual suspects but it's tolerated & actually expected here at this site unfortunately, so why are you surprised:confused:
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Generalizing like that does wonders in building ever wider disparity.
Sorry, remind me what camp are you from? :) and takemehomegrandma (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=772) with his blue butterfly avatar and magnetic (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=147) with his sig saying bPlan Pegasos2 G4@1ghz Triple Boot:Reg. MorphOS /Ubuntu GNU-Linux /MacOS X
I dont mean to generalises and I'm sure there are a lot of MorphOS users who like or at the very least respect other Amiga community efforts its just a shame that some cant. That is all I'm trying to ask for, greater repect for peoples efforts.
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yup always the same old usual suspects but it's tolerated & actually expected here at this site unfortunately, so why are you surprised:confused:
There are several individuals who I'd rather see stfu permanently. Yet, for some reason I don't see it a failing of this site (well most of the time at least).
If this freedom feels overwhelming there are alternatives which are far more restrictive of what you can say or criticise...
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There are several individuals who I'd rather see stfu permanently.
Yes, lets hope so.
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Piru grow up. The so called Frieden brothers and hyperion are ****ing gods and nobody should say anything bad about them or what they do. Your just ****ing jealous you are not a coding god like these people. I would happily have one of the Frieden brothers in my mouth and the other in my arse whilst wearing an AOS4 t-shirt. I wouldn't even boot your crappy OS on my machine.
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:-D
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@JJ: For entertainment value - You have to imagine Piru talking in the voice of Sheldon (Jim Parsons) from The Big Bang Theory. I recently watched 4 seasons of BBT in a row and couldn´t help to recognize the tone.
As for Timberwolf - I think it is a very important and significant project and can´t wait to see the finished thing.
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Yes it is quite amusing and sad that you morphOS fans seem to feel the need to pick out flaws and issues with a product you clearly not interested in. And when Odyssey came out how many of you had a nice discussion about all the feature that Fab hard work has done for you
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58734
3 posts, and notice how many OS4 fans jump on and bashed the project or tried to derail the thread?
this post from jorkany
""""
I just got the FireFox 6.0 update for OS X.
Hows that FF 4.0 rewrite of Timberwolf coming along?
""""
is only a troll post, if he know not that the friedens have tell they want only release firefox 4 as far i remember, and not more.but you cant asume that all read this statement.
I have the feeling the OS4 side is oversensible
instead of write your long post, a short link to that message tell the user that the friedens need not do more than 3.6.
Maybe some day(maybe when X1000 is release) they tell oh we can not do 4.x we do only 3.6 .the bounty rules say thats ok, because it is not modified to current situation
""""
http://www.amigabounty.net/?function=viewproject&projectid=44
This bounty shall not cover anything beyond the released version, ie. Version 3.6 or later versions of Firefox.
"""""
but with very small programming knowledge can see that its a bad port, when a working Port can not easy update to newest Version.
normaly once a OS is support, newer version of such a platform portable Software as firefox can compile in newest version by a user with little programming and compiler knowledge.
maybe its possible there happen some small problems, here can a expert developer help, but normaly this are only small things, that can fix in some days.
I think a browser for AOS is useless to attract new users, when he can not easy update to newest Core Version, and coders that do the Port miss talent to do such a port.
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*snip*
instead of write your long post, a short link to that message tell the user that the friedens need not do more than 3.6.
Maybe some day(maybe when X1000 is release) they tell oh we can not do 4.x we do only 3.6 .the bounty rules say thats ok, because it is not modified to current situation
""""
http://www.amigabounty.net/?function=viewproject&projectid=44
This bounty shall not cover anything beyond the released version, ie. Version 3.6 or later versions of Firefox.
"""""
ignoring, as always, your grudges against them, if you are going to quote, at least get it correct
The version to be ported is the most recent 4.0 version including the latest stability fixes. At the time of writing this, the most recent 4.0 version is 4.0.1. Any subsequent stability fix will be applied.
Later versions of Firefox (4.1 and beyond) are not covered by the bounty.
also
The source code of the port will be made available only as far as the MPL requires it, i.e. all modified source code files will be available for interested parties, but new files will not. This is in accordance with the requirements of the Mozilla Public License.
how can people justify being angry for someone following the MPL? if anyone is unhappy that this is allowed, then I take it you have aired it with Mozilla themselves?
sounds more like this thread has aired everyones personal grudges, while the rest of us wait until there is something final to use and test, and then pass comment.
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From statements the Friedens have made in the past, unless they were lying. At least they haven't gotten to the point where they say they want people to die in a fire, like Rigo.
Edit: And like TMHG mentioned, actions. This Timberwolf browser is a good example - the Friedens don't plan to make it open source, and I'm sure they would be the first to say "We did something and you didn't so you don't deserve it, port it yourself". Meanwhile you've got people like Fab, kase1, and Karlos who actually do write code across platforms. Where do you think the split in the communities comes from? Primarily from the Friedens and Hyperion. I never see the AROS, MOS and Amiga guys arguing about each other, it's always OS4 vs. Everybody else - and it's all down to the crappy attitudes of the gang at Hyperion. Take off the blinders.
Talking crap behind someones back is being a pathetic coward and it doesn't matter how you look at it, that's what you are when you lower yourself to that level. It doesn't matter what they've done, who got the right to act like a jerk and at the same time point fingers at others? Grow up and stop acting like a jealous little child. If you want to downtalk them send them an e-mail and do it like a man. At least they got a chanse to defend themselfes, not that I think that they will care.
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Sorry, remind me what camp are you from? :) and takemehomegrandma (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=772) with his blue butterfly avatar
What's the problem?
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Yawn.
Yet again, a thread (which should generally be positive and contain *constructive* criticism) is turned into a whining egotistical biatch fest.
Yadda yadda yadda.
Oh well, nothing new there. :)
Steve
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So is this thread going to get locked for being a total waste of time because of the trolls and ungrateful want-it-alls?
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""""
http://www.amigabounty.net/?function=viewproject&projectid=44
This bounty shall not cover anything beyond the released version, ie. Version 3.6 or later versions of Firefox.
"""""
Eh? From what I see at the amigabounty website describing the Timberwolf project:
The version to be ported is the most recent 4.0 version including the latest stability fixes. At the time of writing this, the most recent 4.0 version is 4.0.1. Any subsequent stability fix will be applied.
Later versions of Firefox (4.1 and beyond) are not covered by the bounty.
Yea, it's not the latest Firefox for mainstream platforms anymore. But I don't know where you get your 3.6 from. Oh, and, Last update:20110430 07:59
but with very small programming knowledge can see that its a bad port, when a working Port can not easy update to newest Version.
normaly once a OS is support, newer version of such a platform portable Software as firefox can compile in newest version by a user with little programming and compiler knowledge.
They never said they would not do continuous updates due to horrendous effort. Maybe they just don't want to guarantee the time for all future updates being tied to this particular bounty. From what I understand of things, the 5 and 6 updates are not really tremendous changes compared to 4. They decided to go 5 instead of 4.n and 6 instead of 4.(n+1) etc. now, and no longer reserve major numbers for truly large changes to the program. I wouldn't expect an update from 4.01 to 6 to be a tremendous effort. If they're able to make 4 at all, then surely they would be capable coders to make 5 and 6 from that. Where has anyone said that the version limit on the bounty as had some time in the past been described in your quote, or as is currently from my quote, been linked to your suggestion that "not easy update to newest version"?
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Well I was always under the belief that Freidens should have stayed with FF 3.x and got that into a usable productive beta state. However, FF4 has way more features and should be cool (if it ever gets out of an "alpha" state as Piru said) That being said its also much more bloated resource wise....
As far as what some other tosser said throwing my name around about bashing OS4. I care just as much for OS4 efforts as anything. I actually want to run os4 on my peg2, but could see no real reason to until lately. And even better now, if I purchase it when update 3 comes out i'm going to have spend another $150 us when 4.2 comes out?? wtf?
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As far as what some other tosser said throwing my name around about bashing OS4. I care just as much for OS4 efforts as anything. I actually want to run os4 on my peg2, but could see no real reason to until lately. And even better now, if I purchase it when update 3 comes out i'm going to have spend another $150 us when 4.2 comes out?? wtf?
AOS4.1 came out in 2008, AOS4.1 for peg2 came out in 2009, and if AOS4.2 comes out in 2012 thats minimum 3 years. how long do you expect them to wait?
if you are in that much doubt if you should buy it, then dont, and wait for 4.2.
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I proven many times that MorphOs users are actually more interested AOs4 than their own system.
This thread is good example when we compare it this http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58734
True fan writes something like that:
Piru grow up. The so called Frieden brothers and hyperion are ****ing gods and nobody should say anything bad about them or what they do. Your just ****ing jealous you are not a coding god like these people. I would happily have one of the Frieden brothers in my mouth and the other in my arse whilst wearing an AOS4 t-shirt. I wouldn't even boot your crappy OS on my machine.
If I do understand this right, he wants to have something to his arse and mouth and woun't boot Pirus's Os? Piru is skilled coder but MoronOs isn't his product.
Their desperate feelings are understable, after thei released MOs to apple's products they have get 3 new users. This also proves that Hyperion's choise to get their own custom hardware is good choise.
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Apparently when one is running out of arguments we have got new game: ha-ha, you are in different camp than me!
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Apparently when one is running out of arguments we have got new game: ha-ha, you are in different camp than me!
Yeah. :(
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Apparently when one is running out of arguments we have got new game: ha-ha, you are in different camp than me!
What arguments? Here? At Amiga.org? :D
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I proven many times that MorphOs users are actually more interested AOs4 than their own system.
.
Their desperate feelings are understable, after thei released MOs to apple's products they have get 3 new users. This also proves that Hyperion's choise to get their own custom hardware is good choise.
Hmm well first off learn to spell and maybe somebody will take your foolish arguments seriously. Secondly you are completely talking straight out of your ass with this post. Almost all of it is totally wrong. Congrats.
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i suggest this thread be closed now as, yet again, people who seemingly have no interest in the thread topic feel compelled to post FUD & troll:(
to the usual suspects, please start a new thread & call it something like "complaining about Timberwolf on AmigaOS4.x", this way 'you & yours' can congregate there and people who are sincerely interested in the topic can read a troll free thread:idea:
@ Piru
you wrote" There are several individuals who I'd rather see stfu permanently. Yet, for some reason I don't see it a failing of this site (well most of the time at least).
If this freedom feels overwhelming there are alternatives which are far more restrictive of what you can say or criticise... "
trolling is not a freedom & only makes this site look unfriendly to new (& returning) amiga enthusiasts. I don't know why you would want any site where the few ruin things for the majority ?????
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Their desperate feelings are understable, after thei released MOs to apple's products they have get 3 new users. This also proves that Hyperion's choise to get their own custom hardware is good choise.
Click here (http://www.mm.pl/~recedent/wykres2.png) for some statistics.
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I really do not understand, why so many here are so interested putting something to their ass or talking about others asses :)
Freud might have some theories about that.
BUT it is true that amiga.org is most hostile forum against OS4 and that is mostly because some MOS users who like to hijact every single OS4 thread.
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that is mostly because some MOS users who like to hijact every single OS4 thread.
I don't think this entirely true - of course there some MorphOS users/developers that don't behave that nice, but in the sum they are only a fraction of a more general problem here at Amiga.org. Up to 2003 this was my favourite Amiga site - afterwards, ah, it became more or less ... nevermind.
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BUT it is true that amiga.org is most hostile forum against OS4 and that is mostly because some MOS users who like to hijact every single OS4 thread.
The idea that some threads would be "owned" by a certain group of people, and that only a limited group of amiga.org members would be allowed to post in them, and only in a way (to both content and form) that is officially approved by "the OS4 forum posting committee" or whatever, is, simply put, absolutely ridiculous. This misconception is a sickness cultivated and spread from places like amigaworld.net and amigans.net, and if anything, moderators here should try to keep this site protected and free from this disease. There is no "hijacking", we are all members of the amiga.org forum and we are all allowed to post in every thread on this site we think we have something to say about, without the approval of utri007, klx300r, HotRod, and other crybabies. If people have things to say about the Frieden's view on open source, their morale, their skills, their ambitions, etc (which obviously is the case), then there is nothing in this site's Terms Of Service guidelines that prohibits this, so your cry for moderation, thread locking, and banning(?) is totally uncalled for. Comparisons of ethics, spirit and goodwill between the two major browser porters/developers *is* on topic in a thread about an amiga browser, and so is comparisons of the qualities of amiga browsers. What is not OK though, is spamming a thread with crap posts about how you don't like what is being said, frivolous moaning about moderation, and other off topic crap that some people seems to be doing here since yesterday. This is not OK, take that behavior elsewhere.
So. There.
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The idea that some threads would be "owned" by a certain group of people, and that only a limited group of amiga.org members would be allowed to post in them, and only in a way (to both content and form) that is officially approved by "the OS4 forum posting committee" or whatever, is, simply put, absolutely ridiculous. This misconception is a sickness cultivated and spread from places like amigaworld.net and amigans.net, and if anything, moderators here should try to keep this site protected and free from this disease. There is no "hijacking", we are all members of the amiga.org forum and we are all allowed to post in every thread on this site we think we have something to say about, without the approval of utri007, klx300r, HotRod, and other crybabies. If people have things to say about the Frieden's view on open source, their morale, their skills, their ambitions, etc (which obviously is the case), then there is nothing in this site's Terms Of Service guidelines that prohibits this, so your cry for moderation, thread locking, and banning(?) is totally uncalled for. Comparisons of ethics, spirit and goodwill between the two major browser porters/developers *is* on topic in a thread about an amiga browser, and so is comparisons of the qualities of amiga browsers. What is not OK though, is spamming a thread with crap posts about how you don't like what is being said, frivolous moaning about moderation, and other off topic crap that some people seems to be doing here since yesterday. This is not OK, take that behavior elsewhere.
So. There.
How many posts here are about "Timberwolf Progress Update"? Quite many are personal insults against Frieden brothers/Hyperion
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How many posts here are about "Timberwolf Progress Update"? Quite many are personal insults against Frieden brothers/Hyperion
Dunno, but at least one message is a deep (or not?) love message. :)
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How many posts here are about "Timberwolf Progress Update"?
Not many. I wonder why that is? However there has been a ton of discussion related to Timberwolf, other browsers and circumstances related to the progress (or lack of) the Timberwolf porting. Also some quite off topic discussion as well, but in all IMHO it hasn't gone completely off topic.
Quite many are personal insults against Frieden brothers/Hyperion
File a abuse report and let the moderators moderate.
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to improve this thread in lack of "real" progress update we could introduce "virtual progress update" where we would talk about what we believe is currently worked on, how it will work when finished and about that it will be finished when it is done.
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I just got the FireFox 6.0 update for OS X.
Hows that FF 4.0 rewrite of Timberwolf coming along?
http://www.amigabounty.net/index.php?function=viewhistory&projectid=44&historyid=53
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to improve this thread in lack of "real" progress update we could introduce "virtual progress update" where we would talk about what we believe is currently worked on, how it will work when finished and about that it will be finished when it is done.
I like that idea.
I reckon they have probably got to the point where the have realised that to your average user, firefox has become a massive and bloated slow ,piece of irrelevance
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file a abuse report and let the moderators moderate.
qft.
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to improve this thread in lack of "real" progress update we could introduce "virtual progress update" where we would talk about what we believe is currently worked on, how it will work when finished and about that it will be finished when it is done.
If we're going to talk "virtual progress updates" then you might as well just run right on over to my thread discussing whether the X1000 is the best suited platform for personal mini-space shuttles.
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I posted regarding the source thing, because it's something that concerns me when it comes to Amiga software. I am neither an OS4 user nor a MorphOS user. if something needs criticism or discussing then it should be (This is a forum, not a place of worship). Perhaps the real issue is, a lot of stuff happens regarding OS4 that perhaps deserves critique.
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Eh? From what I see at the amigabounty website describing the Timberwolf project:
The version to be ported is the most recent 4.0 version including the latest stability fixes. At the time of writing this, the most recent 4.0 version is 4.0.1. Any subsequent stability fix will be applied.
Later versions of Firefox (4.1 and beyond) are not covered by the bounty.
You text stand above. but below under initial release stand this.so seem this text is forget to modify
"""
http://www.amigabounty.net/?function=viewproject&projectid=44
......
Initial Release
As outlined above, the initial release aims at being up-to-date with the current stable branch of Mozilla/Firefox. That is, if for example the current stable branch of Firefox is 3.5.1, then Timberwolf shall be based on 3.5.1. After this version, the author(s) of Timberwolf shall use best effort to
continue to update to interim stable released of Firefox, i.e. 3.5.2, 3.5.3 etc. This bounty shall not cover anything beyond the released version, ie. Version 3.6 or later versions of Firefox.
""
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Eh? From what I see at the amigabounty website describing the Timberwolf project:
The version to be ported is the most recent 4.0 version including the latest stability fixes. At the time of writing this, the most recent 4.0 version is 4.0.1. Any subsequent stability fix will be applied.
Later versions of Firefox (4.1 and beyond) are not covered by the bounty.
Your text stand above, now i see it. but below under "initial release" stand this.so seem this text is forget to modify, because tell the oppusite
"""
http://www.amigabounty.net/?function=viewproject&projectid=44
......
Initial Release
As outlined above, the initial release aims at being up-to-date with the current stable branch of Mozilla/Firefox. That is, if for example the current stable branch of Firefox is 3.5.1, then Timberwolf shall be based on 3.5.1. After this version, the author(s) of Timberwolf shall use best effort to
continue to update to interim stable released of Firefox, i.e. 3.5.2, 3.5.3 etc. This bounty shall not cover anything beyond the released version, ie. Version 3.6 or later versions of Firefox.
""
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Your text stand above, now i see it. but below under "initial release" stand this.so seem this text is forget to modify, because tell the oppusite
"""
http://www.amigabounty.net/?function=viewproject&projectid=44
......
Initial Release
As outlined above, the initial release aims at being up-to-date with the current stable branch of Mozilla/Firefox. That is, if for example the current stable branch of Firefox is 3.5.1, then Timberwolf shall be based on 3.5.1. After this version, the author(s) of Timberwolf shall use best effort to
continue to update to interim stable released of Firefox, i.e. 3.5.2, 3.5.3 etc. This bounty shall not cover anything beyond the released version, ie. Version 3.6 or later versions of Firefox.
""
This is clearly because of a couple reasons. One, having a browser based on a 3.x version of FF makes it look ridiculously outdated, what with v6.0 out and all. Granted the versioning over at FF has taken a ridiculous twist, but even so there's this perception that there is a huge gap. And it's only going to get worse.
The other reason is, this gives the Friedens an excellent excuse to further delay an actual release thus covering up the fact that they screwed up and had to start over.
But since this is a hobby project, who really cares? Just sayin, don't expect an actual release any time soon (Timberwolf first appeared back in 2009) and if there is a "release" expect in-house beta quality.
Now if you'll excuse me, I've got other sites to visit with my "bloated slow" 6.0 version of FF.
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Your text stand above, now i see it. but below under "initial release" stand this.so seem this text is forget to modify, because tell the oppusite
"""
http://www.amigabounty.net/?function=viewproject&projectid=44
......
Initial Release
As outlined above, the initial release aims at being up-to-date with the current stable branch of Mozilla/Firefox. That is, if for example the current stable branch of Firefox is 3.5.1, then Timberwolf shall be based on 3.5.1. After this version, the author(s) of Timberwolf shall use best effort to
continue to update to interim stable released of Firefox, i.e. 3.5.2, 3.5.3 etc. This bounty shall not cover anything beyond the released version, ie. Version 3.6 or later versions of Firefox.
""
no it doesnt, it is an example. i understand english is not your first langauge, but you are reading something that is not there.
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BUT it is true that amiga.org is most hostile forum against OS4 and that is mostly because some MOS users who like to hijact every single OS4 thread.
I get the experience that this Forum is the only in the amiga world that stay neutral, in other Forums there are OS4 Fans in Moderation that do not like any other AOS, they allow to write bashes against other AOS.some OS4 user dont accept other AOS, they write simular as, all should buy OS4 and other AOS are bad and not Amigan.
but if somebody say something correct, wy he not want buy the glory OS4 or believe what they tell, and this let the OS4 not look in best shine, then the post is delete.
So the forum moderations of other Forums help to let OS4 shine better as it really is.
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no it doesnt, it is an example. i understand english is not your first langauge, but you are reading something that is not there.
ok, now i understand, but i think to make it more clear, the best is when below the initial release text is too change.
because the initial release was in my understanding given with the the alpha version which is release some months
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But since this is a hobby project, who really cares? Just sayin, don't expect an actual release any time soon (Timberwolf first appeared back in 2009) and if there is a "release" expect in-house beta quality.
it cares alot.before OWB OS4 was begin, firefox for OS4 was develop in silence.nobody here messages about firefox state of OS4.
I read many posts on other sites, simular that "OS4 is the best and should buy", because only here is firefox, after the loud announce of timberwolf for OS4.
The friedens can continue develop in silence, and when they are near ready with their firefox, they can announce that and short after release.
but when the timberwolf is not promote so loud since MOS OWB is better as OS4, then no user can tell that OS4 is the best that it have firefox.
maybe users leave OS4, because they see no advantage for the much money.and the timberwolf announce keep them here.....
My feeling is the Hyperion guys can better play poker with bluffing than coding ;-)
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This is clearly because of a couple reasons. One, having a browser based on a 3.x version of FF makes it look ridiculously outdated, what with v6.0 out and all. Granted the versioning over at FF has taken a ridiculous twist, but even so there's this perception that there is a huge gap. And it's only going to get worse.
The other reason is, this gives the Friedens an excellent excuse to further delay an actual release thus covering up the fact that they screwed up and had to start over.
But since this is a hobby project, who really cares? Just sayin, don't expect an actual release any time soon (Timberwolf first appeared back in 2009) and if there is a "release" expect in-house beta quality.
Now if you'll excuse me, I've got other sites to visit with my "bloated slow" 6.0 version of FF.
bye, bye!
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How many posts here are about "Timberwolf Progress Update"? Quite many are personal insults against Frieden brothers/Hyperion
Actually, in agreement with other posters following this silly post, people on aorg are actually able to express their true feelings of OS4 and/or Hyperion and timberwolf. This is not a "fanboy" site where everything is cleansed to make things rosy all the time. (which imho has held back true development and progress of OS4 efforts)
On aorg you are allowed to give your real thoughts without worry of deletion/moderation like on other sites. It seems to me that when the fanboys lose arguments which are completely valid they label you a troll or whatever..
To add to the insanity Hyperion NEVER posts on aorg or aw.net (and barely amigans) to defend their position...which is certainly welcome...
and btw to OS4 fanboys stop calling Piru a troll or whatever as the guy is a dedicated true amigan!
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This is not a "fanboy" site where everything is cleansed to make things rosy all the time.
Wrong! This is MOS fanboy site and it have been since BBRV paid the admin some years ago to post MOS bullsh¡t.
Probably the owners of 1100 MOS licenses are happy about this fact, looking at the silence of MorphZone.
On the topic - Timberwolf with the possiblity to use FireFox plugins/addons/extensions is a big plus for the Amiga community, because the numbers of the developers of such additions is bigger than the number of the active Amiga/MOS/AROS users nowadays. Even Piru - a well known MOS coder released FireFox addon recently.
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Your text stand above, now i see it. but below under "initial release" stand this.so seem this text is forget to modify, because tell the oppusite""
You're right, I hadn't read the whole page, only to the part talking about 4.x. I did not continue to see the later part you quoted that does say 3.6. So the page says two different versions, I think it's easy to understand the first part should replace the talk about 3.x, and that the 3.x part needs updated. I'll bug them about that so everything says the same thing, or at least says that the 3.x part was original plan which has since changed to 4.x at least.
I'm not sure if they've said anything since FF 5 and 6 releases if even more update is perhaps planned or not by Friedens now, I suppose it does make sense to ask them that so the bounty can say the correct thing about it.
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Wrong! This is MOS fanboy site and it have been since BBRV paid the admin some years ago to post MOS bullsh¡t.
Probably the owners of 1100 MOS licenses are happy about this fact, looking at the silence of MorphZone.
Well considering you are a rabid OS4 fanboy I expect this kind of misleading information. (are you sure some of you guys arent involved with Fox News or something? or us GOVT? why I say that? SAME TACTICS of warping facts/truths
Genesi didt pay off anyone.. Wayne Hunt THE FORMER owner of Aorg was employed for a short time by genesi, he then was let go, became disgruntled and actually became an AINC fanboy!
So get your facts straight. This place is far from overrun with morphos guys. Yes mz is slow and it sux. It seems there are a lot of euro morph sites ppl post on..
Aorg is more a classic amiga site Wake UP and stop posting foolishness.
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(This is a forum, not a place of worship). Perhaps the real issue is, a lot of stuff happens regarding OS4 that perhaps deserves critique.
Awesome post and I love the parenthetical :P my aorg quote of the month lulz
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Awesome post and I love the parenthetical :P
I just had to look up parenthetical on Wikipedia ! ;-) (my brain wasn't working, i see now. parenthesis/parenthetical.)
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hahah sorry man... ;)
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If we're going to talk "virtual progress updates" then you might as well just run right on over to my thread discussing whether the X1000 is the best suited platform for personal mini-space shuttles.
how has that anything to do with timberwolf? besides i am certain mini space shuttles are hard fact and there is no need for any "virtual progress updates" in this case.
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btw, on amigaworlds x1k q&a thread appeared today a photograph of cardboard boxes in backround of something that seems to be two varisys nemo boards under final quality control. we could well open a thread to discuss what actually is in the boxes (apart of air) and of what sort of paper are they made of.
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New Update ...
Title: New rendering code for Timberwolf 4.0
Text: As you can see from the screenshot I just uploaded, the new rendering code is in place and seems to work pretty well. Interaction is still somewhat limited since most of the event handling code (keyboard and mouse, redraw based on invalidation etc) is not yet implemented, but the rendering code itself works correctly.
The new implementation is also much more efficient and smaller, it is now only 60 % of the original code size and has the possibility to be fully hardware accelerated (either through the built-in OpenGL layers manager once Mesa is available, or a custom layer manager based on the current compositing capabilities of AmigaOS 4.1).
Stay tuned for more updates and most likely a new test version pretty soon.
(http://www.amigabounty.net/attachments/project/44/tw4.0.png)
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:hammer: