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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Topic started by: SysAdmin on September 26, 2012, 04:16:01 AM
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News from afxgroup (ACube Systems)
Bassano del Grappa, Italy - 25, September 2012
Due to popular demand, we decided to offer 2 new full systems based on the Sam440ep-flex board and the Core 1000 Fractal Design case.
The SamFlex Core system is built around:
Sam440ep Flex
Case: Fractal Design Core 1000
PSU: ATX 500W
RAM: 1 GB DDR
HD: Western Digital 500 GB
DVD RW
Graphic card: Radeon 9200 Pro (128 MB RAM, 128 bit bus)
Prices:
SamFlex core 667 Mhz: 558 Euros.
SamFlex core 733 Mhz: 599 Euros.
Prices exclude VAT and shipping fees.
See our Online Shop (https://acube-systemsbiz.serversicuro.it/shop/en/14-case-systems)
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Good news, the best Sam systems athough the CPU needs more MHZ but the OS4.1 and the drivers runs very fine on this model.
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what an insane price for that low tech hw, and with the extra VAT and shipping fees on top... good luck selling this...
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Wait. So if i understand this correctly SysAdmin is also Pyromania? Doesn't this go against the rules of having more than one account per user?
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what an insane price for that low tech hw, and with the extra VAT and shipping fees on top... good luck selling this...
Insane compared to what?
X86 or generic Mac hardware..sure
Amiga hardware? Compared to the price for a PPC card this seems entirely reasonable.
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Insane compared to what?
X86 or generic Mac hardware..sure
Amiga hardware? Compared to the price for a PPC card this seems entirely reasonable.
It's 815 euros with OS4 and VAT. Without keyboard or mouse. And if you don't have a spare monitor either, it's around 1000 euros for the complete package.
I'd rather get the 460.
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Given that they say "due to popular demand", I imagine these will sell okay too.
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Given that they say "due to popular demand", I imagine these will sell okay too.
What is definition of "popular demand" in Amiga context?
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Who knows, but Acube presumably aren't running a charity.
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Who knows, but Acube presumably aren't running a charity.
I just say popular demand can mean anything.
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If nobody wanted them, why would they make another batch?
I'm sure they know what they're doing otherwise they wouldn't still be in business.
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If nobody wanted them, why would they make another batch?
Where does it say they made another batch? They're now selling SAM440s in a case, another batch isn't necessary for that, just some boards lying around in stock.
I'm sure they know what they're doing otherwise they wouldn't still be in business.
Maybe. A-Eon is still in business due to cash injections from Trevor. Who knows where ACube gets most of their money from - do you really think it's from sales to the OS community?
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@Jorkany
It doesn't say that - but I think it unlikely we're still on the first batch of Sam motherboards, especially as the first batch used different processors! If they hadn't sold them, they would have run out long ago.
I think ACube get most of their money from the OS4 community and the embedded systems combined. I don't know - or pretend to know - what they're doing, but I do know that if the 440 hadn't been a success, there wouldn't be the current run of 440s, let alone the 460.
For all the claims of people who say the price is "insane" or whatever, the fact that Acube are succeeding and still developing new hardware speaks volumes.
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Likely their account's popular demand to move some product that's been sitting on the shelves too long...
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Aren't the SAM boards for embedded industrial stuff originally?
I imagine the OS4 stuff is a side business, but if it's moving some product, why not?
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I think ACube get most of their money from the OS4 community and the embedded systems combined. I don't know - or pretend to know - what they're doing, but I do know that if the 440 hadn't been a success, there wouldn't be the current run of 440s, let alone the 460.
Success in embedded industry sales or in OS4 sales? This could be n'th batch but it could be only small fraction is sold to OS4 community. I dont know. And it is not even important. But I wouldnt gauge it with marketing buzz words.
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I'd rather get the 460.
Seconded, the 440 is just too underpowered.
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Price per megahertz the x1000 seems better value to me :)
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How many people claiming the 440 is too underpowered have even tried one?
I mean it's no powerhouse, but I've only ever had ONE SINGLE time where I wished my 440ep had more grunt, and that was with Blender.
Then I realized that buying a PPC board to do actual production rendering tasks on would be complete stupidity, and I rendered the scene on my PC within 1.5 minutes.
I'm quite happy with my old 440ep with dual SATA SSD's, but I guess I don't ask a heck out of a lot of it. It runs my BBS and compiles code like a champ, and is cool and quiet as a churchmouse in the process.
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Exactly. My Sam 440ep is a lovely little machine. It's slow running Timberwolf, but that isn't finished yet and it's well known there's no speed-up optimisations in it, so of course it's slow. You can have a lot of fun with it.
What gets me is the irony... in the past I always had to convince PC users that you didn't need a lot of megahertz to have fun and get things done, and they didn't understand. Now it seems like many Amiga users are the same as PC users, despite the fact many of them have classic machines up to 50MHz that they still enjoy. The main reason for buying super powerful PCs is to play games ... but we don't have those games anyway so we don't need the power. Yes the power is nice, but it's far from necessary.
You don't need a ton of power to enjoy computing- the Sam range is good evidence of this.
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@spirantho
When I had my Amiga 1200 with 040 clocked at 25 MHz it was not slow until I got a taste of Peg1 clocked at 600 MHz. Just like when I got my first full HD capable monitor for Amiga there was no way going back to smaller resolutions.
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Exactly. My Sam 440ep is a lovely little machine. It's slow running Timberwolf, but that isn't finished yet and it's well known there's no speed-up optimisations in it, so of course it's slow. You can have a lot of fun with it.
What gets me is the irony... in the past I always had to convince PC users that you didn't need a lot of megahertz to have fun and get things done, and they didn't understand. Now it seems like many Amiga users are the same as PC users, despite the fact many of them have classic machines up to 50MHz that they still enjoy.
I think the real problem is the price, rather than performance. If it was 200-300 euros, than it would make sense. 1000 euros is just too much, given the performance and age of the machine.
For that money you can have 2 Open Pandoras, which are not mass produced and are made in Germany, so are well suited for comparison. And the latest 1 GHz model is probably even faster than SAM440. Remember, Open Pandora has an LCD screen and a battery, making the comparison for SAM440 even worse.
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Doesn't everyone own 3 SAMs?
How strange ;)
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I already have a 500mhz PPC Machine (Mac Sawtooth) and it is too slow to even play Youtube videos. That machine cost me £5 so what would I do with a £800 machine that can't even be used to list up my ebay auctions and watch the odd Commodore gameplay video let alone record them and convert them to FLV for upload myself.
For £800 I expect enough CPU grunt to play 1080p video and 5.1 AC3 sound together @ 24fps. I expect it not to hang itself as soon as a complex webpage is loaded on a modern browser. I expect it to run Super Stardust AGA in 48khz 16bit quality upscaled audio without dropping a single frame in 1280x512 in 24bit colour mode on the desktop.
*pass*
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Don't care for 'em, don't buy one, lol.
As far as requiring being able to watch HD video, it could also be argued that virtually any free with contract smartphone can do that better than any Amiga-like OS variant/hardware can.
I've got an AROS box, a MOS box, and OS4 box - and my Galaxy S2 ($0 on contract) work phone can watch youtube vids at 720p better than any of them...
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If you are going to compare (any) AOS4 system to general computing in terms of price and performance, it will always be expensive. No matter whether it costs 1.000 or 100 euros. Because there are devices that feature more horsepower (let alone software) in most technological sectors (from desktop to netbooks). It's kinda of unfair, imho. Of course, the same remains up to a point for MOS as well, the main difference is that there is a huge internal price/performance difference between OS4 and MOS. But strictly speaking, when it comes for the exact ratio that bangs the buck, AROS is the only answer.
Now, for the people claiming that 440ep@667Mhz is enough, I got news for you. My 5 years old mobile phone (!) (MotoZ6 (http://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_rokr_z6-1825.php)) plays in a much better fps rate prBoom and almost all emulation packages. Let alone having Opera mini browsing in bloatware websites in contrast to the ****ty TW that renders pages in 56,6k times.. Even Battle for Wesnoth shutters/crawls when moving on map >15 units... and I am not even starting to name the notorious 3D performance (LOL).
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Are these good news? Sam440ep is:
-expensive (more expensive than Peg2/G4 when it was released)
-slow (much slower than Peg2/G4 when it was released)
-old (Sam440 was already quite slow)
It's amazing ACube still tries to sell such an old machine.
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AROS gets a lot more bounty money. It has a lot more developers working on it.
Why not switch?
The retro collectors are happy paying a thousand for an Amiga with low power, but people trying to use them are as sad as can be. (Because of limited software or incompatibility).
I flipped off Windows Vista and Windows 7 because I can't stand them and there was incompatibility with a lot of my software.
You should consider porting the handful of programs that you need to AROS.
Even if Power PC trundles along the market is so small the machines will continue to be very expensive. To me not worth the money.
I can have AROS on my x86 machine (free) and also a powerful classic Amiga no more than $500 in cost (with 030 or 040).
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Aren't the SAM boards for embedded industrial stuff originally?
I imagine the OS4 stuff is a side business, but if it's moving some product, why not?
who is this mysterious embedded industrial buyers of the sam hw?...
i have always wondered that.... the money aint coming from the os4 community and the less than 100 people that have bought the sam and the x1000.
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who is this mysterious embedded industrial buyers of the sam hw?...
i have always wondered that.... the money aint coming from the os4 community and the less than 100 people that have bought the sam and the x1000.
If you can get access to the OS4 sales figures it shouldn't be too hard to find out who their embedded customers are.
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who is this mysterious embedded industrial buyers of the sam hw?...
i have always wondered that.... the money aint coming from the os4 community and the less than 100 people that have bought the sam and the x1000.
Thats what they don't talk about or tell amigoids. These boards were not designed originally to run AOS, they were for embedded applications where
raw processing power is not as big an issue.
AOS needed some kind of power pc processor and solution, these boards
were available... AND no one was buying them...
No one would pay that much for a board for embedded applications when they can get a similar x86 or arm solution for 1/10 the price.
So hey lets sell them for absolutely ridiculous prices to people intent on running a hobby os...
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@thread
Way too underpowered !
What people not seem to understand is it does not matter how fast and efficient your operating system is - if applications use alot of resources they need the resources !
Geez - were not super optimizing 68k assembler apps anymore - look where that got us for portability !
Applications today are a different beast they need the power - hardware mhz and GFX grunt.
Games and apps these days are so complex, just the AI alone for some games would make our systems crawl, not to mention the hours it would take for compiling software.
Software houses have standards, they want to port to Amiga, they look at the Hardware and just say - nah, nope, my developers would take too long waiting for the hardware to do the things they need done.
Boss - 'Port this game to Amiga', developer - 'sorry it will take too much time optimizing or removing features'.
Dont limit the creative freedom of developers by hardware constraints.
How many of you know that OpenOffice has its own BASIC programming language (that one can program) to automate record tasks ?
UltraEdit also has Perl scripting language built in for automation ! We are not talking some basic text editor here, its one of the most powerful in the world.
Give people the hardware, they will find a way to max it out :)
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Hate to be the proverbial turd in the pool, but...
You could make a 8ghz 64 GB RAM Amiga like variant and the world as a whole would not care about it in the least. You and I would, sure - but everyone else? They would say "uhh, Amiga what?" like they have been for the last 15 years.
Game devs would never flock to the platform, nor would the power apps mystically just appear. There will simply never be the masses of users to warrant the big guns ever getting involved.
It's a niche platform. There's very few applications even maxxing out or taking the power we have at hand on these system to full throttle.
It's an enjoyable hobby, but I still do get a kick out of the people that figure if you were to re-invent the spirit of the original Amiga it would make a dent in the market. It wouldn't. Computers are appliances now for 99% of the collective world. Even our old niche of rendering and video work that came with the Toaster is long, long gone and all the good intentions in the world won't change the fact it's a Windows and Mac world now.
I enjoy it for what it is, but it's never going to be a worldbeater of a platform.
"Give people the hardware, they will find a way to max it out :)"
The power is there and has been for some time, and the fact is there's very few applications that really use it.
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lol
I bet some people would argue with hardware devs at sony or microsoft saying - dont make Playstation 4/Xbox 720 with 16 processor cores next year its such a waste - we dont need it.
OMG.
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People will develop games for a mainstream console. They won't bother for a system with 1000 users or so.
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"You could make a 8ghz 64 GB RAM Amiga like variant and the world as a whole would not care about it in the least."
Yeah right, because no incredibly talented coders would want to work on a
system like that. Thats the bull**** the money makers and amiga grave robbers are feeding everyone.
If there was a very advanced platform with some kinda amiga name on it, the amiga name wouldn't matter except to generate some interest in this very advanced platform.
An advanced platform that is technologically superior to what is currently available in the mainstream always generates interest, excitement and great
coders. Thats why amiga was successful in the first place.
Now we have excuses for **** slow hardware, a 10 years behind the times OS and a total lack of invention or technical superiority.
Thats why anything amiga is just a blip on the radar now instead of a player.
Guess you can always just customize and play with your os4 desktop and think about using it for great things like you used your classic amiga for back in the day... But it can't do great things, not anymore, because its an under powered crippled joke. In truth, even a 3,000$ X1000 amiga is a crippled one core slow ass excuse for a modern computer that can not compete with a
50$ ebay pc.
We now return amiga.org members to their usual delusions...
Steven
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For Amiga software, the Sam isn't too underpowered at all. If it was, it'd be useless. However, the only people who say it's useless are the ones who haven't even used one.... the ones who do get by just fine.
We don't need multi-ghz machines to run our software. Comparing it to development of the next Playstation is absurd: the next consoles need more power because of the games that will be written. If we made a 64 core 3GHz powerhouse with the latest graphics card, the amount of new games developers would still be zero.
The Amiga is no more suited to games now than the PC was in 1988, the market has changed. Games are now multi-million dollar products written for machines with tons of CPU power, and that's not the Amiga's strength - it never was. Heck, even the Atari ST ran a faster CPU than the A500. If you make a super Amiga the publisher will still ask
"how many units do we expect to sell?"
and the answer will be very small, and the publisher will go back to the consoles.
The research and development cost of an Amiga to keep up with a PC or Playstation or whatever is SO huge - probably billions of dollars, a) who's got that much money to spend and b) would anybody buy it? Even if you find someone rich enough to develop it, still no-one will buy it because there's no software for it. There's no software for it because nobody's bought it. It's a vicious circle.
What I don't understand is why people are screaming about how it's way underpowered, yet most Sam owners are happy with their machines. If it was that underpowered, it would be useless and wouldn't sell. It does sell (they still make them, so it must be selling - Acube are not a charity), people are happy using them so they can't be underpowered for the tasks the users are running on them.
"Underpowered" is such a subjective term anyway. If you want to run render apps, yes it's unsuitable (it's not designed for CPU intensive tasks). If you want to run other stuff, it can be just fine.
You can tell the Sam users how underpowered it is all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that it's not.
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You can tell the Sam users how underpowered it is all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that it's not.
I beg to disagree, it IS underpowered for quite a lot of tasks (just like most other PPC-hardware), especially considering the price. Amiga-users are just too used to tweaking their own habits around what the machine is (in)capable of doing, but it's 2012 and a "new" machine should be able to perform tasks that PC's have been doing for the past 10 years.
But that doesn't change the fact that using the machine can be fun, because it is fun. But trying to convince yourself that the machine isn't underpowered (compared to anything else on the market today) and somehow arguing that the price isn't crazy high is just silly. Hobbies are expensive and they don't need to be sane :)
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I kind of agree and disagree. :)
It is underpowered for quite a lot of tasks, but only those it's not meant for - i.e. CPU heavy ones. If you buy any Amigaoid system for stuff like rendering these days, you must be a bit crazy as we just don't have (or in AROS's case can't harness) the power needed. PC's have oodles of power and have done for a long time now, but that doesn`t mean that we have to do the same things as them.
It just annoys me rather that people who've never used a Sam come on and tell everyone how underpowered they are, when I know that they're perfectly capable doing a lot. I know this because I actually use one.
For instance, on my Sam:
I'm writing this now using OWB.
I develop software such as Catweasel drivers. Heck, I even ported SDLMAME using the Sam! I used the A1 for the final optimised compilation, but for the porting I used the Sam.
I emulate other machines.
I play the occasional game.
I don't:
try to render stuff
try to play HTML5 YouTube videos (MUCH more CPU intensive than people realise. It's only because things like phones and PCs have dedicated hardware and things that make people think it's not - we don't have those drivers so it's all down to CPU grunt for us, not for them).
try to run MAME :) (It's very CPU intensive). Having said that, it can run some games quite well.
try to run Timberwolf (it's not finished and there's no optimisation, so it's too slow - but that's not the Sam's fault).
Stick to what it's good at and it's a beautiful machine. Forget PC's - they're a different beast. Don't try and keep up with PCs because you won't win - they have a massive userbase and masses of technological evolution, we don't. Take the Amiga (and the Sam) on its merits rather than looking at your neighbour's PC, and you'll be happy. If you want PC power - you need to buy a PC, there's no way round that.
As for the price... seriously, these guys have to eat. They have families to feed. How can they be expected to produce low volume hardware at much cheaper prices? There's a lot of work gone into the R&D of the boards, of the production of the boards, of the investment risk in the first place. These guys deserve money, and really 550 Euros for a complete system is a bargain when you factor in all the costs. We're not talking about big companies with huge economies of scale here.
However, I completely agree that hobbies are expensive and they don't need to be sane. I know this because I own a CS-PPC. :)
We're very lucky that we're part of a hobby that still has commercial companies doing anything for us at all. It's not like we're a huge market. And then when they actually want some financial reward for their work and risk, people complain as though they should be doing everything for free.
Acube with their products aren't trying to build machines for power users - just use a PC for that. They're building hobbyist products for a hobbyist audience. I hate to say it but the only way the brand "Amiga" is ever going to be big again is if C=USA make it big and just stuff the label on a standard PC (and that makes me sad *sniff*). The Amiga as we know it cannot possibly compete with the technological advancement rate and the huge multi-billion dollar budgets of the PC world.
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As for the price... seriously, these guys have to eat. They have families to feed. How can they be expected to produce low volume hardware at much cheaper prices? There's a lot of work gone into the R&D of the boards, of the production of the boards, of the investment risk in the first place. These guys deserve money, and really 550 Euros for a complete system is a bargain when you factor in all the costs. We're not talking about big companies with huge economies of scale here.
Except that the price ISN'T 550 euros when you add taxes and the cost of the OS. And I know WHY the price is high, but it doesn't make it any less crazy high though for me as a potential buyer. I might actually consider buying the machine if it was 500e for a complete system, with OS and taxes included. But paying nearly 1000e for it just isn't an option, and it most likely won't attract anyone not already using AOS4 to buy one.
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Except that the price ISN'T 550 euros when you add taxes and the cost of the OS. And I know WHY the price is high, but it doesn't make it any less crazy high though for me as a potential buyer. I might actually consider buying the machine if it was 500e for a complete system, with OS and taxes included. But paying nearly 1000e for it just isn't an option, and it most likely won't attract anyone not already using AOS4 to buy one.
I understand that, but the problem is that that is the price. The people behind it are probably not much more than breaking even at that price. To sell it at 500 euros would be a large loss, including the OS developers. Small volume design and production is expensive, it's a fact of life.
These people aren't driving Ferraris here, they're just trying to make a living.
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ok lets look at it from another angle.
Assuming developers are interested in programming games on a SAM system, they tend to use a game engine they are familiar with EG, Unreal Engine.
The Unreal Development Kit (UDK) has 2 million+ lines of code and takes just under 3 mins to compile on a blazing fast 8 core / 16 thread system.
Assuming we have Unreal working, how long would it take to compile just the UDK, (just compile the developer kit without game at this stage).
For a decent game to get on Amiga, we need the same Game engines that developers use, or they wont even look in our direction.
Once we have Unreal 3 engine working, find the simplest commercial game (oldest) and try compile - see how long a developer need to waste time for it to compile.
Any guesses ?
hardware needs to match the 'norm hardware' - this is the first stage or obstacle.
First match hardware, then price, match developer tools, then increase userbase.
These days Game developers are using 100+ distributed network systems to compile their games.
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The game devs are not going to look in our directions anyways. Amiga gaming, commercially - ended in the 90's. You could sell a $500 4 ghz Amiga like OS machine and it STILL would not get the big guns coding for it.
We are small fry. Appreciate what we actually do have.
You are more likely to see an official big name mainstream game running on your toaster than you are an Amiga-like system.
If you really think the guys behind the Unreal Engine are just chomping at the bit for someone to re-invent some obscure old OS from the 90's, EVEN IF there was insanely powerful and dirt cheap HW to run said OS, you're on glue.
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ok lets look at it from another angle.
Assuming developers are interested in programming games on a SAM system, they tend to use a game engine they are familiar with EG, Unreal Engine.
The Unreal Development Kit (UDK) has 2 million+ lines of code and takes just under 3 mins to compile on a blazing fast 8 core / 16 thread system.
Assuming we have Unreal working, how long would it take to compile just the UDK, (just compile the developer kit without game at this stage).
For a decent game to get on Amiga, we need the same Game engines that developers use, or they wont even look in our direction.
Once we have Unreal 3 engine working, find the simplest commercial game (oldest) and try compile - see how long a developer need to waste time for it to compile.
Any guesses ?
hardware needs to match the 'norm hardware' - this is the first stage or obstacle.
First match hardware, then price, match developer tools, then increase userbase.
These days Game developers are using 100+ distributed network systems to compile their games.
Compilation time is irrelevant. They'd use a cross-compiler.
I can tell you now that even if the Amiga was twice as fast as a PC, it wouldn't succeed. The hardware is irrelevant. The fact is that there's no software = no userbase = no software. The only way to break that cycle is with a big (and I mean millions and millions of dollars) marketing push, and a massive "contribution" to developers.
We are seriously talking in the billions of dollars here - that's not an overstatement.
I am a games developer. I would love to develop games for the Amiga, but it's financial suicide, simple as that - and publishers know this. Developing a fantastic uber-Amiga isn't going to change that - it's about money, and in the Amiga market, there's hardly any. You don't spend $2m on developing a new game when you know total sales are going to be measured in the hundreds.
We should be very grateful we have anybody left at all giving us software and hardware.
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I understand that, but the problem is that that is the price. The people behind it are probably not much more than breaking even at that price. To sell it at 500 euros would be a large loss, including the OS developers. Small volume design and production is expensive, it's a fact of life.
These people aren't driving Ferraris here, they're just trying to make a living.
That's the problem, it's not economically viable product anymore while the alternatives costs are significantly less. The bad calls Hyperion has made over the past ten or so years has them painted in a corner leaving them no where to go. Time will tell, but I believe this is check-mate.
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Especially when Hyperion was rewriting the operating system anyway. They should have incorporated processor independence into the OS. But that's water under the bridge now.
Why pay €700 or more to run classic software in an emulator and a few ported outdated Linux programs?
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That's the problem, it's not economically viable product anymore while the alternatives costs are significantly less. The bad calls Hyperion has made over the past ten or so years has them painted in a corner leaving them no where to go. Time will tell, but I believe this is check-mate.
I think you've been saying it's Game Over for quite a while now. :)
Whether we understand it or not, the fact is that people DO pay 700 or more.
I do it because I really like AmigaOS 4 - I'm not ashamed of that. I know I could run things much faster and more cheaply using a Linux box, but I don't enjoy Linux. I do enjoy AmigaOS. Plus with AmigaOS I can develop things which don't exist - developing for Linux is a nightmare, and even when you do do something, someone else has already done it. It's just no fun.
Hyperion have painted themselves into a corner, I agree - but it's a hobbyist corner, where they are a big fish in a tiny pond. As long as there are people who are willing to pay for their hobby, they will succeed. The alternative is that everybody gives up, goes home, and starts following Barry or something - I think I prefer where I am with my expensive toy which I enjoy.
All I ask myself is a simple question: for €700, would I get better value for money with a slower machine running AmigaOS, or a faster machine running Linux/Windows/whateverOS - and the answer is always the slower machine with AmigaOS. It's not about benchmarks or figures or numbers or whatever, it's about enjoyment.
That question about the "enjoyment per buck" ratio is all that matters to me - am I really in the minority?
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Nah, you aren't in the minority, Spirantho. You pay what you pay because your platform (s) of choice bring you enjoyment that is beyond being measured in dollars and cents, and I find anyone with a passion for a hobby like that very respectable.
There are people willing to pay 700e for an OS4 machine.
There are people willing to buy second hand Mac's and register MOS, even though in the grand scheme of things a MOS license is about 40% higher priced than an OEM copy of Windows.
There are people willing to put together cherry picked commodity PC components for AROS or Amithlon, and neither of those solutions just "work on all PC hardware".
Others will spend $1200 on kitting an old A1200 or A4000 out.
Some will even pay a higher cost for commodity PC hardware with the C-USA logos on it.
None of these people are wrong in their choices as long as they get a kick from the systems they use, I figure.
I collect old cars and vintage motorcycles and scooters. I've seen friends pay as much for a rusted out shell of a vintage auto, when the truth is they could have bought a fairly modern used car with the same amount of cash. This hobby is no different than that, the Amiga is still living and breathing solely due to the passion of the userbase in my books.
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@spirantho, @Duce, @et al,
Glad to see you guys finally admit OS4 is just a hobby OS. Too bad so many people were denigrated and banned over on boards like AWN for saying as much a few years ago, but I guess even the "old guard" can see OS4 isn't really going anywhere.
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@spirantho, @Duce, @et al,
Glad to see you guys finally admit OS4 is just a hobby OS. Too bad so many people were denigrated and banned over on boards like AWN for saying as much a few years ago, but I guess even the "old guard" can see OS4 isn't really going anywhere.
I've never said anything else. OS4 is most definitely a Hobby OS - Amigas have all been a hobby since 1994, I figure (and I'm not being revisionist here - feel free to check my older posts).
What I've always said is I'm glad it's a hobbyist OS. Because of that, we can keep a low profile and not have to worry about all the crazy ideas and DRM nonsense and commercial craziness that infects the "big guys". The downside is we don't get the modern CPU-demanding software, but the upside is that we get to enjoy our computer, and that's a worth sacrifice - at least for me.
Long live the hobbyist OSes - all of them, be they AmigaOS, MorphOS, AROS, or even OS-9 and things - it's the people keeping the hobbyist OSes alive that are keeping the enjoyment of computers alive. Without them we'd be forced to use Windows and things all the time.
All hail the AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS and AROS for keeping our Amiga platform - in whatever flavour - alive. :)
(I think that was my most vitriolic post ever. Do I get a prize? :) )
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As I see it, anybody who uses a Wintel or Mac computer to just check their email, surf the web, or anything else that could be done using their cell phone is using a hobby OS on a hobby computer. Most "desktop computer" are not being used for real productivity beyond what a Smart Phone can do and hence are no more than needed than the OS they use.
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As I see it, anybody who uses a Wintel or Mac computer to just check their email, surf the web, or anything else that could be done using their cell phone is using a hobby OS on a hobby computer. Most "desktop computer" are not being used for real productivity beyond what a Smart Phone can do and hence are no more than needed than the OS they use.
That's probably where some of the disagreement lies.
To me those people are exactly those who are not hobbyists.
Someone who uses their computer as a tool is just a user. No more, no less. They don't care what OS they use, they just want to write a letter to Auntie Mary in Australia and have it get there on time.
A hobbyist (for me) is someone who uses their computer because they enjoy using it. They enjoy tinkering with the OS - trying to get the most out of it. Seeing what boundaries they can push. Or - in my case - seeing what code they can create on it to make it do funky new stuff that no-one else has done before. That is what makes it a hobby.
From my perspective, to say that people using a Windows PC to write an email is a hobbyist is like saying that someone writing a traditional letter has caligraphy as a hobby.
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Yes, you are right; the term "hobby" has many definitions. Wikipedia says, "a regular activity or interest that is undertaken for pleasure, typically done during one's leisure time."
I'm not sure if that counts me "in" or "out" since I still use my Amy for DTP and graphics processing. My Amy is used for leisure, but the definition doesn't qualify a system as a "hobby" just because the original company is defunct; in fact a particular activity may at one time be "productive" with monetary compensation and in another moment be "recreational."
My general point is that, "If you use it, enjoy it, support it, and "nurture" it, then whether or not it falls into the class of a 'hobby' or not, it is valuable in your life." No one can comment on the significance of said activity to you, only on the significance to themselves.
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I see what you mean. I'm not sure if you're "in" or "out" either.
I really can't see that someone using a PC to write an email or browse the web can count as a hobbyist, though - that'd make my Mum a computer hobbyist, and that just can't be right. :)
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What I'm saying is that the term "hobby" and "hobbyist" apply only if YOU want them to apply; in general terms, anything we do that does not involve monetary gain can NOT simply be called a hobby. And, of course, anyone using a certain item (technological or not), is not a hobbyist just because that object is not productive, i.e., a computer that one uses for something (emailing, surfing [which I personally spell Cerfing, after Vint Cerf], solitaire, et cetera) that can easily be done on their cell phone. That person does not maintain said computer as a hobby.
In my opinion, the Amiga in NG form or not and AmigaOS 4.1 are no more a "hobby" than owning or driving a car. If YOU want it to be YOUR "hobby," then only you have that right to label it such; others cannot make a blanket statement about the usefulness of any item (or OS) just because it does not meet their definition; it only has to meet your own definition.
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I think you've been saying it's Game Over for quite a while now. :)
Can you show us exactly what years did Hyperion add to the Amiga user base and by how much? Showing nothing but a decline and the only hopes to increase the number of Amiga users is based on expensive hardware in a worsening world economy is check-mate IMO. I have my doubts if there wasn't a embedded customer for the SAM boards if ACube would have ever produced anything for the Amiga past the first batch. Hobby is one thing, but even a hobby there is a point of no return when no one will make hardware available for the hobby.
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As nobody has figures for Amiga users, obviously it's impossible to say that. Hyperion aren't in control of the World Economy, though, and nor are they in charge of basic economics. You can't blame Hyperion for the fact that a low-volume Amiga costs more than a high-volume PC.
How can it be check-mate while there are still companies making hardware (ACube, A-Eon) and software (Hyperion)? Check-mate means game over, end of story, kaput; yet quite clearly this isn't the case.
I agree that there's a point of no return, yes - but we're clearly not past that point because there still are new things coming out, so by definition it can't be.
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As nobody has figures for Amiga users, obviously it's impossible to say that. Hyperion aren't in control of the World Economy, though, and nor are they in charge of basic economics. You can't blame Hyperion for the fact that a low-volume Amiga costs more than a high-volume PC.
Sure I can, they could have opted long ago to port to a arch that made economic sense. Instead they are hanging in with PPC which does not make sense as the world spirals towards portables.
How can it be check-mate while there are still companies making hardware (ACube, A-Eon) and software (Hyperion)? Check-mate means game over, end of story, kaput; yet quite clearly this isn't the case.
Considering when they were announced and or released, I can't consider the A-Eon AmigaOne X1000 nor the SAM460 as "new." Hyperion has indeed released an update, but it was mostly bug fixes as far as I can see.
I agree that there's a point of no return, yes - but we're clearly not past that point because there still are new things coming out, so by definition it can't be.
What keeps coming out? Sam460 was announce April of 2010 and first X1000 prototype(s) was mid 2009. and then finally released nearly a year ago. Or are you referring to the "upcoming" 400MHz Limebook that was released back in 2009?
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any news about the 400MHz Limebook??...
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any news about the 400MHz Limebook??...
I'm sure it would taste a bit bitter to some ;)
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Trevor has already said he's working on future models with Varisys.
The gestation period for a new machine when you're a small team is in the region of 2-3 years, further complicated by things like the Xena - so I'd class having two machines released in the last two years as being current. If we were using ARM chips we'd still have the same development time more or less - we don't all want portables, after all; some of us still want desktops and that's mostly unexplored territory for ARM.
You have to admit that compared to the Dark Ages (i.e. between the end of the AmigaOne XE line and the arrival of the Sam), it's positively thriving. Nothing happened in those years hardware-wise. Now we only have two companies making new hardware, but that's still two more than we used to.
I don't count the netbook because we don't know anything except it's probably not new hardware.... this thread is about hardware.
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do you also know who is this mysterious embedded industrial buyers of the sam hw are?..
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If I had the money for a SAM, I'd use it to start a bounty to get the hardware I already own supported by AROS.
I think that would be a far better investment.
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For the record, I HAVE used a sam system belonging to a very dissapointed friend. He even offered to sell it to me at half the price he just paid for it but I passed, because I thought it was total ****.
As I recall, his was the 800mhz sam. It could not even play 720x480 videos without stuttering. Sorry but my phone can do that. What a joke.
These boards were too slow when they were first released HOW MANY YEARS AGO? The fact that they are still trying to sell THESE boards instead of producing modern spec hw speaks volumes Edited by moderator to remove personal attack portion of post.
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Can you show us exactly what years did Hyperion add to the Amiga user base and by how much? Showing nothing but a decline and the only hopes to increase the number of Amiga users is based on expensive hardware in a worsening world economy is check-mate IMO. I have my doubts if there wasn't a embedded customer for the SAM boards if ACube would have ever produced anything for the Amiga past the first batch. Hobby is one thing, but even a hobby there is a point of no return when no one will make hardware available for the hobby.
No one says, "It's over" until we say its over. "Was it over when the German's bombed Pearl Harbor?"
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What happened when you played the same video on a similar specced PC using the same software?
You really can't compare open source software on an 800MHZ machine against a dedicated h264 hardware decoder (which phones have).
Decoding modern video compression is a MUCH harder process than people realise, you just don't notice because PCs have so much CPU speed and phones have dedicated hardware.
If your friend bought a Sam expecting it to run videos he would have been disappointed with an 800Mhz anything.
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No one says, "It's over" until we say its over. "Was it over when the German's bombed Pearl Harbor?"
Germans?
That was a really long flight! I did not know they had perfected "In Flight Refueling" back in the 1940's, or that the "Germans" had an Aircraft Carrier fleet in the Pacific.
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There are people willing to buy second hand Mac's and register MOS, even though in the grand scheme of things a MOS license is about 40% higher priced than an OEM copy of Windows.
This misconception keeps getting repeated in different forms on many different Amiga forum sites.
You need to update your knowledge of the current licensing costs for MorphOS3.1, since the price reduction that accompanied the release of the MorphOS3.0 version.
To celebrate the much anticipated release of MorphOS 3.0, we are furthermore offering special three-tier pricing. The prices for a keyfile are 111.11 EUR for one PowerBook G4 system, 79 EUR for one eMac, Mac mini G4, Pegasos I, Pegasos II or PowerMac G4, and 49 EUR for one EfikaPPC system.
That is a direct quote from the Official MorphOS website, and is dated June 8th, 2012.
When I checked earlier this evening, the OEM version of Windows7 Pro costs about $91 U.S. dollars, or 70.77 Euros. The "Home" version of Windows7 is cheaper, but most people that know anything about computers don't want the stripped down "Home" version, which is why I used the Pro version. I don't even know what the OEM price is for the "Home" version of Windows7, so maybe your "40% higher priced than an OEM copy of Windows" is accurate for one of the versions of MorphOS3.1, but certainly not for the 49 Euro Efika version and maybe not for the 79 Euro version for the G4 eMac, G4 MacMini, Pegasos 1 & 2, or G4 PowerMac.
Just thought I would update you and anyone else who is not aware of the current pricing for MorphOS3.1.
I hope that the users who did not register MorphOS in the past because they did not like the 150 Euro price tag that it had prior to version 2.5, will reconsider registering their MorphOS computers now, since the price to register has come down as much as 66% for some instances. To make these prices even more attractive, consider that for the 9 updates that have been released since MorphOS2.0 was first released, not one of the updates has required additional license payment, and there are no plans in place that indicate that the MorphOS Dev. Team will ever charge for an update, though that is completely up to them and they can change their minds some time in the future if they wish. 9 updates and lots of new features at no additional charge, and no plans to charge for any of the future updates. This is something that everyone should consider when they think about the possibility of registering MorphOS3.1. It is a great deal and just keeps getting better with each new release.
I would not have brought up MorphOS3.1 in this thread, but just wanted to clear up a mistake made in an earlier post. I now return this thread to it's regularly scheduled ......
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I haven't paid more than $70 for Win 7 64 bit oem (Pro/Ultimate) since the day it came out, and Win 8 (assuming anyone wanted to use that mess, lol) will be cheaper yet.
WHS 2011 is $50, OEM.
Nice to see MOS coming down in price, though. That also being said, OS4 is not cheap either.
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That's the problem, it's not economically viable product anymore while the alternatives costs are significantly less. The bad calls Hyperion has made over the past ten or so years has them painted in a corner leaving them no where to go. Time will tell, but I believe this is check-mate.
The alternative certainly isn't the crap C=USA produced after C64x.
The point is AROS is the only possible future for Amiga because it is the only OS that runs on Intel i7. Intel i7 has been the ONLY way forward as a CPU choice for computers for the last 36 months or more. NOTHING else comes close to price/performance of an i7.
So if anyone is making a new Amiga OS it needs to be x86-64bit. Not Linux mint based crap on Commodore OS. And the hardware needs to abandon looking at ARM or PPC NOW! ARM is a low power CPU for phones sorry NOT a £500 computer AND PPC is a dead end, has been a dead end since G5 was abandoned by Apple, and for good reasons.
So you need Hyperion and MOS to stop f**king about and get on with an x86 ports IMMEDIATELY because SAM or X1000 based computers are NOT Amigas. Like I told you all millions of times ONLY Commodore designed Amigas, these are just PPC machines that run some obscure kooky OS that has nothing to do with Commodore. MOS is even worse, I puke every time I see an Apple logo, how can a Mac running MOS be anything like an Amiga, idiots argument that one!
So as it stands there is no Amiga, if you just want to avoid using crappy Windows and OSX bloatware rubbish then AROS is your only hope. I don't want a door stop performance 400mhz computer for £800 or a smelly old Mac that has zero support and hard to find replacement parts for repair as my 'Amiga' I'd rather have a beautiful (looks better than any sh*tty Mac) PB iXtreme cool white PC silently running AROS if there is no chance of a real Amiga computer being launched (which as it stands ONLY Natami is even close to being called a real Amiga).
If it needs UAE to run Cinemaware code then it is NOT Amiga anyway so END OF DISCUSSION IMO. Whether it is running AROS/MOS/OS4 doesn't make any of these computers more Amiga than the other, because NONE can be called Amiga in any real sense of the word. Doesn't matter if is says A-EON, Apple or Dell on the motherboard, without a Paula chip the machines themselves are NOT Amigas.
YMMV :pint:
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Germans?
That was a really long flight! I did not know they had perfected "In Flight Refueling" back in the 1940's, or that the "Germans" had an Aircraft Carrier fleet in the Pacific.
on the internet you learn new things every day....
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Yes, and it's all true. It has to be if it's on the internet. The internet does not lie.
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For those too young, "It's over" quote is from a movie:
http://youtu.be/V8lT1o0sDwI
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For those too young, "It's over" quote is from a movie:
http://youtu.be/V8lT1o0sDwI
young people hanging out on a amiga site... that's definitive stretching it a bit.
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Trevor has already said he's working on future models with Varisys.
The gestation period for a new machine when you're a small team is in the region of 2-3 years, further complicated by things like the Xena - so I'd class having two machines released in the last two years as being current. If we were using ARM chips we'd still have the same development time more or less - we don't all want portables, after all; some of us still want desktops and that's mostly unexplored territory for ARM.
My reply was about any announcements with hard tech information which, to the best of my knowledge, has yet to appear. Small mobos prototyping should never take 2-3 years if the ODM is worth a damn. ARM has the one advantage that there are plenty of designs out there that anyone can take advantage of and have dev boards ready to go for porting in the matter of months if not weeks. Look at what Genesi has done with ARM systems. Once the A16 is released, there is your desktop worthy ARM.
You have to admit that compared to the Dark Ages (i.e. between the end of the AmigaOne XE line and the arrival of the Sam), it's positively thriving. Nothing happened in those years hardware-wise. Now we only have two companies making new hardware, but that's still two more than we used to.
I don't count the netbook because we don't know anything except it's probably not new hardware.... this thread is about hardware.
I will point out that this community was multiple times larger during those "Dark Ages." Had Hyperion ported OS4 to Pegs earlier, I doubt the SAMs would have been offered. So here we sit and the total population world wide is probably down in the mid 4 digits vs mid 5 digits ten years ago, if not higher. Once herald Amiga fairs drew hundreds and now if a couple of dozen show up, it's called a success. The constant adding of new OS4 core devs draws attention to the fact the OS4 core dev pool is constantly losing proven talent. The only hope I see is if Trevor spends a whole lot of money on designing and building cheap and powerful PPC systems that he will probably never see a return of investment on. If he has deep enough pockets for the Amiga charity, more power to him. As far as ACube is concern, I don't know where they are going to go from here if their embedded customer needs the 400 series as it's CPU core.
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@ AmigaDave
When I checked earlier this evening, the OEM version of Windows7 Pro costs about $91 U.S. dollars, or 70.77 Euros. The "Home" version of Windows7 is cheaper, but most people that know anything about computers don't want the stripped down "Home" version, which is why I used the Pro version.
Just curious, where did you find Windows 7 Professional OEM so cheap? Normal price through legit channels is typically $140 or so.
Also, what features are you using that are not available in Home Premium?
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Germans?
That was a really long flight! I did not know they had perfected "In Flight Refueling" back in the 1940's, or that the "Germans" had an Aircraft Carrier fleet in the Pacific.
Had the WW2 continued 1-2 years longer without Germany's industries and resources being pounded as hard as it was by "the allies" during the later stages of the war, it's quite possible that Hitler would have Atom bombed New York though. OK, not exactly "Pearl Harbor", and it would have been a one-way/suicide trip for the pilot, but still...
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@ AmigaDave
Just curious, where did you find Windows 7 Professional OEM so cheap? Normal price through legit channels is typically $140 or so.
Windows OEM can be *very* cheap, depending on reseller. Point is OEM shouldn't really be sold separately to consumers at all but only bundled with new computers (this is the very definition of OEM), but some does this anyway. Hence there are no real trustworthy comparable list prices on this, you have to search to find the best bargain, there can be big differencies. There are however restrictions in OEM versions of windows when it comes to upgrading the computer (new motherboard/CPU etc); the OEM Windows is kind of similar to the MorphOS license in this regard, it's tied to the HW it's supposed to be bundled with. My brother built himself a new PC (put it together from selected components) and tried to install his old OEM on it, but product activation failed. But then he simply called the support by phone and said his computer had broke down and the seller had replaced some parts because of original parts no longer existed (playing ignorant), and somehow MS support opened it up so he could register/authenticate windows on his new HW!
:)
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Another great offer from Acube-Systems :-)
They already finished the batch of Sam440ep so if they produce a new batch, someone asked for it ;-) and i can guess that this someone is more than "some user" to justifiy a new batch and I am happy too because they are producing a new batch of Sam460ex too :-)
If they produce "someone" ask for it.. :-) ;-)
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Maybe "popular demand" is a nickname of someone.
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@thread
If AmigaOS 4 was available for x86, that came with a FPGA on a card to simulate 68k/ AGA chipset and 68k games ran seemless via the fpga ..
2ghz, 2GB, 500gb hd sata, usb x4, amd gfx card 1gb
priced at £299
Would you call it an Amiga ?
if not, seriously what form would it take.
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WHS 2011 is $50, OEM.
That's how I obtained Win7. Home Server can be had for even less upon occasion.
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@thread
If AmigaOS 4 was available for x86, that came with a FPGA on a card to simulate 68k/ AGA chipset and 68k games ran seemless via the fpga ..
2ghz, 2GB, 500gb hd sata, usb x4, amd gfx card 1gb
priced at £299
Would you call it an Amiga ?
if not, seriously what form would it take.
Why would an FPGA be required?
AmigaForever runs fine on an X86.
Until OS4 supports SMP, I'd have a hard time justifying using it on an X86.
I haven't had an X86 with only one core in several years.
Would I call it an Amiga?
I'm so over that.
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@killer
There's no mention of a new batch of boards, just boards bundled inside cases, which they could easily do with existing boards.
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Here:
News from afxgroup
Bassano del Grappa, 29-Sept-2012,
At ACube Systems we love to do offers as soon as we can. While we wait for the new batch of - currently out of stock - Sam460 to be assembled, for the first 10 Flex Core systems purchased we offer a fully licensed copy AmigaOS 4.1. This is a more than 100 Euros/USD discount!
It's already Christmas in Amiga Land. Don't miss this opportunity!
Please visit ACube website for more information
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I guess everyone should be happy that hw is still being made for os4 but sheesh... s - o s - l - o - w
I guess its easy to get spoiled with a 3.4ghz aros box you got for 50 bucks on ebay. I hope they port to arm or x86 someday or its a dead end.
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@thread
If AmigaOS 4 ... ... ... Would you call it an Amiga ?
if not, seriously what form would it take.
Seriously? Well, Hyperion and Amiga Inc ****ed up the Amiga brand way too much, way beyond all recognition. IMO, thanks to them, Amiga (TM) today stands for crap, filthy politics, dirty law suits, lies, deceit, and substandard products at grotesque overprice. Hence the Amiga brand lost its relevance and meaning to me a long time ago. In fact, I can't connect emotionally to that anymore, I don't even want to feel being associated with it in any way, it feels filthy in a way. I'm happy to use anything else that gives me my Amiga fix, regardless of the sticker on the product. My interest in Amiga was never about brand stickers on the front anyway...
But to answer your question "what would it take" - OS4 would simply have to be taken out of the equation, as simple as that. There is too much non-Amiga code and non-Amiga philosophies in there, it has too low quality, too poor features, too poor Amiga compatibility, and is hard-welded to hardware whose combination of price, performance and features would have ensured it to have never even left the drawing board/product planning stage, if a normal, healthy logic would have been applied. Had I had one, I would definitely have felt a need to hide it away from everyone I know to avoid being labeled a goofy nutcase or something in their eyes. So all that would definitely have to go...
:)
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Man does this place suck, lol. I figured this thread would go to hell in a handbasket, but I never thought I'd see a thread get so jacked that it starts resembling a religious holy war, with TMHG calling for Mass Extermination of OS4 products like Hitler did with the Jews....
Seeya around, A.org! This place has become damned near useless. Off to AW.net.
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There is too much non-Amiga code and non-Amiga philosophies in there, it has too low quality, too poor features, too poor Amiga compatibility, and is hard-welded to hardware whose combination of price, performance and features would have ensured it to have never even left the drawing board/product planning stage, if a normal, healthy logic would have been applied. Had I had one, I would definitely have felt a need to hide it away from everyone I know to avoid being labeled a goofy nutcase or something in their eyes. So all that would definitely have to go...
:)
What does too poor Amiga compatibility mean? Has MorphOS a better backward compatibility? Since everything evolves it is logical to break with some "outdated" Amiga philosophy.
BTW.. AROS is MorphOS done right ; ) just to provocate a bit.
If your problem is that AmigaOS 4.1 doesn't run on cheap used HW... well it would be only a matter of one or two month to change it.
The only bottleneck of AmigaOS 4.x is the management (no offense, just my personal pov)
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@phoenixkonsole
What does too poor Amiga compatibility mean? Has MorphOS a better backward compatibility?
Yes indeed it has, which a well known fact, and it comes from different focus from the very beginning. The MorphOS team always put backwards compatibility very high on the priority list, while OS4 team happily introduced things that affected compatibility in a negative way in the name of "evolution", sometimes unnecessarily so. This difference shows. Which is kind of funny, since MorphOS is also the more evolved one! :lol: ;)
BTW.. AROS is MorphOS done right ; ) just to provocate a bit.
I get your provocation ;), but compared to MorphOS, what is AROS top features that you think beats it? Other than the benefits tied to x86 HW, I mean the OS itself?
@Duce
This thread fulfilled its purpose many pages ago already, and since then it branched into *numerous* discussions, which is OK and is what most discussion threads usually do when the Original Topic has been *covered in full*. I had nothing to do with that, it's a natural evolution of discussions. A question was asked what it would take to make you consider OS4 as being Amiga, and I (as others) replied. And here you are, talking about Hitler and the Holocaust of Jews!? :rolleyes:. Oh man, that was a new low level even coming from you. This is a discussion board, where you discuss things, exchange views, debate, etc. If you don't agree, then say so in the discussion, but please stop this pointless negative meta-discussion about discussions you are constantly doing all the time. Funny thing you bring up Hitler in one breath, and then you advocate a totalitarian fascist view that only unidirectional opinions should be allowed in the next breath. Was that a Freudian thing? Frankly, this seems to be all you do here these days, and frankly, indeed this behavior would perhaps indeed suit better on that other site...
:rolleyes:
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@takemehomegrandma
If we talk about the AROS you may know:
Better 3D drivers, more supported HW, Wifi
Not only tied to cheap HW ; ) (multiplatform).
But this few pro's will get some big additions in the not too far Future which will blow some minds.
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@takemehomegrandma
"the Amiga brand lost its relevance and meaning to me a long time ago. In fact, I can't connect emotionally to that anymore, I don't even want to feel being associated with it in any way, it feels filthy in a way. I'm happy to use anything else that gives me my Amiga fix."
and why do you hang around at a.org and try to gospel your mprphos?... it's clearly you are in the wrong place if you feel like that..
i suggest you try out this place -> http://www.morphzone.org i think it will be more of your liking :)
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Wow, this site has gone down hill.
I own an AmigaOne 500 (Sam 460) and I love it. I was a classic user for many years, my A3000 was my favorite machine, but I have to say, the A1-500 has that feel for me. I have nothing against other Amiga flavor systems, I think we should all work together and get along.
I thought I would pop in here to see what is new in the classic side of things, and after reading this thread, wow, bitter much. Nice to visit and good luck, see ya.
Yogi
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Windows OEM can be *very* cheap, depending on reseller. Point is OEM shouldn't really be sold separately to consumers at all but only bundled with new computers (this is the very definition of OEM), but some does this anyway. Hence there are no real trustworthy comparable list prices on this, you have to search to find the best bargain, there can be big differencies. There are however restrictions in OEM versions of windows when it comes to upgrading the computer (new motherboard/CPU etc); the OEM Windows is kind of similar to the MorphOS license in this regard, it's tied to the HW it's supposed to be bundled with. My brother built himself a new PC (put it together from selected components) and tried to install his old OEM on it, but product activation failed. But then he simply called the support by phone and said his computer had broke down and the seller had replaced some parts because of original parts no longer existed (playing ignorant), and somehow MS support opened it up so he could register/authenticate windows on his new HW!
:)
I understand OEM very well, thanks. Microsoft actually allows the sale of OEM Windows from their normal System Builder channel to other "system builders" as long as the package remains unopened so that they can accept the license agreement. This is why NewEgg and other major retailers can sell OEM Windows with no complaints from Microsoft.
There certainly are list prices and typical selling prices for OEM Windows obtained through the System Builder channel. If you find copies of OEM Windows for sale at a substantially lower price than say NewEgg then one of several things must be happening:
1 - it's counterfeit (a VERY common occurrence from fly by night vendors)
2 - vendors or OEMs are starting to dump existing inventory in anticipation of a new release (Windows 8)
2 does happen, especially from major OEMs like Dell, HP and Lenovo, but I'm not so sure buying a license sold to Dell for installation on a non-Dell PC is valid. If you care about having a legit license then you might be concerned. If you only care that it activates online and passes validation checks then you might be fine.
Yes, an OEM license cannot be moved from PC to PC according to the license. Same thing if a motherboard is upgraded. If the motherboard is defective and an exact brand/model replacement in installed the license is still intact.
However, like you said, Microsoft is very leanient - I've never heard them deny a license activation unless you specifically tell them you're doing something against the license agreement. Typically they ask only how many PCs the license is installed on - if you say 1, they will give you an activation code.
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What does too poor Amiga compatibility mean? Has MorphOS a better backward compatibility? Since everything evolves it is logical to break with some "outdated" Amiga philosophy.
I dont think it was intentional though.
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@takemehomegrandma
"the Amiga brand lost its relevance and meaning to me a long time ago. In fact, I can't connect emotionally to that anymore, I don't even want to feel being associated with it in any way, it feels filthy in a way. I'm happy to use anything else that gives me my Amiga fix."
and why do you hang around at a.org
Because to me (and many others as well, a fact that you obviously fail to grasp) "Amiga" != "Trademark and boing balls". I wonder why this is so hard to grasp for some? In fact, it's not about the name at all, the name was destroyed by Hyperion and Amiga Inc more than a decade ago. And there is nothing in the TOS of this site stipulating that everyone must either advocate OS4 and only express positive emotions or be silent as soon as OS4 is mentioned. So there is absolutely no ground for your "why are you here" reasoning based on my posts in this (or any other) thread, not in the TOS, and certainly not in the Amiga legacy. Others can have (and express) their views about OS4, and I can have (and express) mine. There are up to two handfuls of topics going on in this thread alone, OS4 is very much related to them all, and I have the same right as you or anyone else to answer the direct question that was asked about what I think about OS4, without you or anyone else coming slagging me with insinuation that I would have done something wrong (not to say "Duce's" analogies to Hitler and the Holocaust, I mean WTF?!).
:whack:
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However, like you said, Microsoft is very leanient - I've never heard them deny a license activation unless you specifically tell them you're doing something against the license agreement. Typically they ask only how many PCs the license is installed on - if you say 1, they will give you an activation code.
Microsoft has created a new license which should be around OEM costs: http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-pick/windows-8-gets-personal-use-license-for-anyone-building-their-own-pc-20120821/
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If you care about having a legit license then you might be concerned. If you only care that it activates online and passes validation checks then you might be fine.
If it installs on your HW and then activates properly on your machine online in the "Genuine Windows" test (or whatever they call it), then *it is* legit! At least according to Microsoft themselves apparently, and they are quite picky about this and they can easily kill/blacklist serials to prevent activation of foul copies. IMHO price is irrelevant to this.
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Microsoft has created a new license which should be around OEM costs: http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-pick/windows-8-gets-personal-use-license-for-anyone-building-their-own-pc-20120821/
That's actually quite interesting! Thanks for the head-up! :)
IMHO something like this needed to happen. I think MS needs to do everything they can to prevent another "Vista disaster" where most consumers and organisations simply kept on using Windows XP for a very long time instead of upgrading. Windows 7 was a very good version though, worth an upgrade (both from XP and Vista), and today I believe many (including MS themselves perhaps?) are thinking about why they should bother with Win8, especially on the desktop, especially when Win7 is actually quite good and does pretty much everything you need? And has a UI you know and understand and approve!
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okay in an argument about super niche operating systems that most people have never heard of, it's propably a bit over the top to pull out the hitler stuff
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okay in an argument about super niche operating systems that most people have never heard of, it's propably a bit over the top to pull out the hitler stuff
You get back to me when you've received personally harassing PM's from people "from other camps" should one try and promote more tolerance for all Amiga platforms. I won't try and defend the Hitler comparisions, but do read the below and it might be a little more understandable as to why I made them.
The first time I apparently patently offended people by claiming that tolerance should be shown for ALL flavors, I was called a "retard" in PM. The next time, after someone found out I have a vision impairment, I was called a "blind retard". I wish I was making this up or otherwise exaggerating, but sadly I am not, and I suspect I'm not alone.
A bit hard to keep your cool and keep taking it on the chin in those cases, and why? I made the deadly mistake of saying there's room for all flavors, and strengths and weaknesses in *all* Amiga-like OS variants, so you'll have to forgive me if I do chime in when people start pounding the pulpits about their divine vision of what "THE GRANDE AMEEEGAH OS!!!!11" is while thoroughly preaching outright disdain for anyone not using "The Holy OS".
It's a platform that's essentially been a grave-robbed, bloated corpse for nearly TWENTY years, yet you know - nothing has really changed. Still the elitist horseplop there always was, only difference is back in the day our enemy was the PC user, now we are essentially cannibalizing each other over stupid "color camps". That's sad beyond words, and even sadder that it's a seeming holy war here when we're all in the same damned boat.
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Oh, I dont disagree with you one bit there.
The "camps" is retarded. Instead of (pulling numbers out of my ass here) 1000 users and 12.5 developers for each version, maybe we'd be moving along better, if there was some actual unity.
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I don't think the problem is actually as bad as it seems.
Yes - there are "camps" but most people are actually more than willing to appreciate the others - it's the vocal minority that make it seems like the "war" is much larger than it is.
Certainly most people I know are AmigaOS 4 users because I hang around AW.net and Amigans.net as well, but overall I'd say that most of the people I've come across have been genuinely happy when progress is made on AROS or MorphOS - I imagine that most people on MorphZone.net are also genuinely pleased when AmigaOS 4 shows progess (at least I hope so).
Of course there are some OS4 users who will yell at MorphOS users, but luckily I think they're the minority in the same way as the anti-OS4 brigade are a minority of MorphOS users - there's always going to be someone.
So don't give up - just realise most of the people are keeping quiet because they don't care about the bickering! The only reason I took any part in the thread was because I get so fed up of people yelling about the Sam is unusable, when I know it's not true because I use one regularly.
On the plus side, this argument has kept the news about there being two new full systems at the top spot of the forums. :) All good publicity - and I for one wish to support the few remaining companies supplying us with what we need for our hobby to survive.
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Oh, I don't know that we are all that fragmented.
Many software packages are ported across all three NG OS'.
And at least one MorphOS developer (Fab) has ported his work to the competition's platform.
As to any hostility that might exist, I don't think MorphOS users are actively hostile to AOS4.1 users.
There's just some lingering pains over some statements made in the past by Hyperion's management and contracted developers (which is funny because I use MorphOS to run their ports of QuakeII and Heretic).
Anyway, the bigger the base the better, so I'm open to anything.
Heck, I'm even considering building a 4000 to get back to legacy software.
Oh, and takemehomegrandma may have some strongly held opinions (which I occasionally disagree with), but he's a pretty sharp dude.
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If it installs on your HW and then activates properly on your machine online in the "Genuine Windows" test (or whatever they call it), then *it is* legit! At least according to Microsoft themselves apparently, and they are quite picky about this and they can easily kill/blacklist serials to prevent activation of foul copies. IMHO price is irrelevant to this.
Of course not. For example, if you somehow obtain a non-profit license for Windows (which is available at a dramatically reduced cost) and are able to install and activate it, do you think if Microsoft came knocking on your door they would consider you legitimally licensed? Of course not.
Most people don't care - they only care if they can install and activate. Doesn't mean you are legitimately licensed however. Microsoft is absolutely NOT picky - it's very rare that they will blacklist install codes - they only do it in extreme cases.
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MS doesnt care that much about piracy. Someone using pirated Windows is not using Linux or Mac OS.
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There's just some lingering pains over some statements made in the past by Hyperion's management and contracted developers (which is funny because I use MorphOS to run their ports of QuakeII and Heretic).
If you mention this you also have to mention that BBRV liked to stir the pot a lot and had a quite offensive marketing tactic (my things are so much better than the competition).
greets,
Staf.