Amiga.org

Operating System Specific Discussions => AROS Research Operating System => Topic started by: motorollin on December 22, 2010, 12:35:45 PM

Title: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: motorollin on December 22, 2010, 12:35:45 PM
I've got a bug up my arse about building a tiny intel motherboard into an A1200 case with a Keyrah to allow use of the original keyboard/mouse/joystick. All of the boards I have found either have too large a footprint, or have big heat sinks on top which make them too deep. So, does anyone know of any tiny boards which would run AROS? On board TV out would be a bonus, if supported by AROS, though this isn't a must.

--
moto
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: whabang on December 22, 2010, 12:45:02 PM
The optimal mobo would be a Via Epia with a C7, but since Aros doesn't support S3 video cards, an Atom-based mini-ITX card is probably the best bet:
http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=47
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: Duce on December 22, 2010, 01:44:48 PM
Lots of Mini ITX boards that would work fine, as Whabang said - take a peek at http://www.mini-itx.com and see their offerings.  I've had very good luck dealing with them business wise, I've got a Mini ITX UAE rig that I'm very happy with, performance and footprint wise.
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: bloodline on December 22, 2010, 02:28:07 PM
The mini-ITX boards tend to be too tall to fit in the slope of the A1200 case. I have an EPIA board and a spare A1200 case here for the same idea... But gave up due to the board not fitting (heat sink and memory stick up too high) and the difficulty interfacing the A1200 keyboard with the ITX...

If you do try it, I suggest one of VIA's PicoITX boards. Then get a friend to build you a keyboard controller that can interface with USB or PS/2 :)
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: hardlink on December 22, 2010, 02:41:33 PM
Quote from: motorollin;600710
I've got a bug up my arse about building a tiny intel motherboard into an A1200 case with a Keyrah to allow use of the original keyboard/mouse/joystick.

I have the same bug, but for an even smaller Amiga. Industrial single board computers are made for this  sort of thing (embedding in something else). I've had a WinSystems board around for years that will fit in an A600 case, just haven't gotten to it yet. Their latest board should fly running AROS:

http://sbc.winsystems.com/products/EPX-855.cfm
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: motorollin on December 22, 2010, 02:46:05 PM
Cheers guys. Looks like I'll have to contact Mini-ITX.com and see if they can let me know the lowest profile compatible board. Alternatively I might butcher a laptop :hammer:

As for the keyboard, wouldn't a Keyrah do the trick?
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: mfilos on December 22, 2010, 02:49:44 PM
http://www.clusteruk.com/SitePortalPage.aspx?siteid=1&cfid=0&did=16
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: motorollin on December 22, 2010, 02:57:23 PM
@mfilos
Do you know whether the board in that system would fit inside an A1200 housing?
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: bloodline on December 22, 2010, 03:16:22 PM
Butchering a laptop might be the most economic idea (ironically),  you can pick them up cheap on eBay... Cheaper with a broken screen (which you won't need)... Keyrah looks like it will do the job... Though I have no experience with one.
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: motorollin on December 22, 2010, 03:18:35 PM
Quote from: bloodline;600755
Butchering a laptop might be the most economic idea (ironically),  you can pick them up cheap on eBay... Cheaper with a broken screen (which you won't need)... Keyrah looks like it will do the job... Though I have no experience with one.


Since getting my iPad, my ageing first gen MacBook has seen little use... Maybe I'll take out the mobo and see if it fits...
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: mfilos on December 22, 2010, 03:30:12 PM
As far as I saw, the iMica uses the Intel® D945GCLF2 mobo. I used to have this mobo 1 year ago (nowadays I'm using an ION instead for my HTPC needs) and it's a standard 17x17mm mini itx board.
http://www.mini-itx.com/reviews/atoms/default.asp?page=6

I would be shocked if the mobo didn't fit such a huge case like A500s... but I can't tell for sure.
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: motorollin on December 22, 2010, 03:34:38 PM
Quote from: mfilos;600763
As far as I saw, the iMica uses the Intel® D945GCLF2 mobo. I used to have this mobo 1 year ago (nowadays I'm using an ION instead for my HTPC needs) and it's a standard 17x17mm mini itx board.
http://www.mini-itx.com/reviews/atoms/default.asp?page=6

I would be shocked if the mobo didn't fit such a huge case like A500s... but I can't tell for sure.


Thanks... As I said it's the height rather than the footprint area which is likely to be a problem, as the A1200 housing is quite low profile. I'll check the height of the board and see if it would fit.
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: mfilos on December 22, 2010, 03:43:37 PM
Oops now I saw you wanted A1200 casing and not A500 (another guy wanted to do the same in A500 casing over EAB).
I believe you won't have an issues since the height issues you're gonna have is only from the CPU or Chipset heatsink that can be changed for a lower profile in worst case scenario+fan :)

Keep us posted mate, it's indeed a nice project \o/
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: motorollin on December 22, 2010, 04:15:32 PM
Quote from: mfilos;600767

I believe you won't have an issues since the height issues you're gonna have is only from the CPU or Chipset heatsink that can be changed for a lower profile in worst case scenario+fan :)

Good idea... Can you get flatter heatsinks with a large surface area?

Quote
Keep us posted mate, it's indeed a nice project \o/

Will do, though I don't anticipate doing much with this for a while as funds are short!
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: phoenixkonsole on December 22, 2010, 05:15:36 PM
Hi,

am i allowed to suggest buying the board from Steven http://www.clusteruk.com ?
He is helping a lot and needs every send. He spend a lot time, enthusiasm and money. Just my 2 cents....
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: trekiej on December 22, 2010, 05:25:52 PM
1U rack mounts use a muffin fan. It is low profile.
I am sorry, I do not know if it would work.
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: motorollin on December 22, 2010, 05:42:52 PM
Quote from: phoenixkonsole;600783
Hi,

am i allowed to suggest buying the board from Steven http://www.clusteruk.com ?
He is helping a lot and needs every send. He spend a lot time, enthusiasm and money. Just my 2 cents....

Of course, you're allowed to suggest anything you like, as long as the board fits ;)

Edit - corrected horrifying "your/you're" typo.
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: motorollin on December 22, 2010, 05:48:25 PM
Quote from: trekiej;600785
1U rack mounts use a muffin fan. It is low profile.
I am sorry, I do not know if it would work.


Thanks for the suggestion - I'll add it to my list of things to look in to :)
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: JimS on December 22, 2010, 08:08:35 PM
Look here:
http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=446&name=Motherboard-CPU-VGA-Combo
Some of these have low profile heat sinks, or smaller heatsinks with a fan.
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: motorollin on December 22, 2010, 08:19:46 PM
That's awesome, Thanks Jim. Is there a compatibility list anywhere I can use to work out which of these is compatible with AROS?
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: JimS on December 22, 2010, 08:44:33 PM
Quote from: motorollin;600835
That's awesome, Thanks Jim. Is there a compatibility list anywhere I can use to work out which of these is compatible with AROS?


I'm not sure about that... I've only started playing with AROS. It works on my desktop PC hosted under windows, that's about as much as I've done with it.  I remembered the newegg site when from when I was looking for a small mobo to build into a radio.
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: AmigaNG on December 22, 2010, 10:36:05 PM
Quote from: bloodline;600755
Butchering a laptop might be the most economic idea (ironically),  you can pick them up cheap on eBay... Cheaper with a broken screen (which you won't need)... Keyrah looks like it will do the job... Though I have no experience with one.

I too have to agree, I never done a full mod so I was put off it, but I did see just about a month ago at a computer market an Acer Aspire One with a broken screen for just £40 and it did cross my mind, get it and rip out the motherboard to make my own all in one keyboard, but like I say I've not really done mods and as I'm saving up for a possible very dear computer (x1000 or sam460) I decided ageist it.
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: bloodline on December 22, 2010, 11:25:38 PM
I still think an old laptop is the way to go, but if you are set on a standard mobo then this should fit: http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=39
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: fishy_fiz on December 23, 2010, 12:42:52 PM
I cant offer any specific suggestions, but an ION based platform might be something to consider. Apart from maybe a 90 degree riser card (and maybe not even with a riser card) it might be your only option for hardware accelerated 2d and 3d. Vesa drivers are quite decent as far as Vesa goes, and the vast majority of cards will work in vesa at least, but if you have a choice between vesa and noveau/galium3d you'd have to be a madman to go the former  :)
If you have any specific questions about supported hardware feel free to ask. I cant offer much advice in the way of specifically low form factor hardware, but I am fairly well versed in what hardware is supported and to what degree.
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: motorollin on December 23, 2010, 12:46:40 PM
@bloodline
Thanks for the link. I'll try making a model of the board from the dimensions on the site and try to fit it inside an A1200 case. I'll also post on freecycle for a laptop wth a broken screen, as I really can't afford to spend much on this project, and really don't want to wreck my MacBook.
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: bloodline on December 23, 2010, 02:07:47 PM
Quote from: motorollin;601148
@bloodline
Thanks for the link. I'll try making a model of the board from the dimensions on the site and try to fit it inside an A1200 case. I'll also post on freecycle for a laptop wth a broken screen, as I really can't afford to spend much on this project, and really don't want to wreck my MacBook.
Broken laptop is by a long shot the best idea. You'll really want something with a crappy BIOS (rather than the EFI based MacBook) as it's just more compatible with GRUB :) x
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: paolone on December 23, 2010, 02:35:44 PM
Quote from: bloodline;600755
Butchering a laptop might be the most economic idea (ironically),  you can pick them up cheap on eBay... Cheaper with a broken screen (which you won't need)... Keyrah looks like it will do the job... Though I have no experience with one.

The Keyrah works like a charm with A1200 keyboards! I've been using one for three years or so, and it didn't give any issue to me. Only problem for hiw would be fitting the keyrah and the Mini-itx mobo in the A1200 case, but it should not be a great issue once you decide to modify also the side holes.

Plan B might be using the A1200 keyboard with the keyrah alone, and connect it to a little, spare mini-itx case with the mainboard inside. I don't know if it's an acceptable compromise, though.
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: motorollin on December 23, 2010, 02:43:16 PM
@bloodline
Do you know if there's a list of compatible laptops, or at least chipsets so I can find a compatible laptop?

@paolone
Thanks for confirming the Keyrah will work. As for mounting the board outside the A1200, well the whole point is to make it look and function as much like an A1200 as possible, so I'd rather mount everything inside.
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: nicholas on December 23, 2010, 03:06:17 PM
I've got an old Compaq with a broken screen you are welcome to have mate.

It's a Pentium III era model.
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: motorollin on December 23, 2010, 03:12:26 PM
Quote from: nicholas;601219
I've got an old Compaq with a broken screen you are welcome to have mate.

It's a Pentium III era model.


That's amazingly generous... thanks! Could you let me know the model please so I can check it's compatible?
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: nicholas on December 23, 2010, 03:53:44 PM
Quote from: motorollin;601222
That's amazingly generous... thanks! Could you let me know the model please so I can check it's compatible?


No problem at all, if I can't do a good turn at Christmas when can I do one? :)

I'll dig it out later tonight once the little one has gone to bed and find out the model number and specs.

Finding the charger will be the greatest mission!
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: bloodline on December 23, 2010, 04:41:40 PM
Quote from: nicholas;601245
No problem at all, if I can't do a good turn at Christmas when can I do one? :)

I'll dig it out later tonight once the little one has gone to bed and find out the model number and specs.

Finding the charger will be the greatest mission!
Maplin do "universal" charger, might be worth a shot.

@Nicholas that was a generous offer! I can't wait to see what Moto does with it :)
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: motorollin on December 23, 2010, 04:50:11 PM
Quote from: nicholas;601245
No problem at all, if I can't do a good turn at Christmas when can I do one? :)

TBH I can't think of any other time of year when such behaviour would be appropriate ;)

Quote from: nicholas;601245
I'll dig it out later tonight once the little one has gone to bed and find out the model number and specs.

Finding the charger will be the greatest mission!

Please don't go to huge amounts of trouble! I would hate to think of you digging through the loft for hours! If you can lay your hand on it fairly easily then I will be extremely grateful, but don't put your back out over it ;)
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: motorollin on December 23, 2010, 04:51:25 PM
Quote from: bloodline;601264
Maplin do "universal" charger, might be worth a shot.

@Nicholas that was a generous offer! I can't wait to see what Moto does with it :)


Universal charger might do the trick. Hopefully I can get this project off the ground fairly soon once I've got the mobo and an A1200 case!
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: ncafferkey on December 23, 2010, 07:04:18 PM
Quote from: bloodline;601205
Broken laptop is by a long shot the best idea. You'll really want something with a crappy BIOS (rather than the EFI based MacBook) as it's just more compatible with GRUB :) x


BTW, AROS does boot now on some Intel Macs, so that MacBook could potentially be a nice AROS laptop (preferably in one piece IMHO ;) )
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: bloodline on December 23, 2010, 08:53:42 PM
Quote from: ncafferkey;601311
BTW, AROS does boot now on some Intel Macs, so that MacBook could potentially be a nice AROS laptop (preferably in one piece IMHO ;) )
I've managed to get AROS x86 booting on my first gen MacBook pro... But not on my latest generation MacBook Pro... I've not tried the x64 native version yet, that might work...
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: nicholas on December 24, 2010, 01:28:29 AM
Quote from: motorollin;601268
TBH I can't think of any other time of year when such behaviour would be appropriate ;)


Please don't go to huge amounts of trouble! I would hate to think of you digging through the loft for hours! If you can lay your hand on it fairly easily then I will be extremely grateful, but don't put your back out over it ;)


According to the missus "It's in the back room".

Which means box shifting, I'll get back to you by boxing day. lol
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: motorollin on December 24, 2010, 08:20:56 AM
Quote from: nicholas;601414
According to the missus "It's in the back room".

Which means box shifting, I'll get back to you by boxing day. lol


No worries mate, whenever you can get round to it! Thanks!
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: Cammy on December 24, 2010, 09:37:23 AM
While it's not Intel-based, this Mini-ITX motherboard doesn't even need a fan or heatsink and runs both Aros and AmigaOS4 :D http://www.acube-systems.biz/index.php?page=hardware&pid=1
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: Halabus on December 24, 2010, 09:38:51 AM
Hello, this is my first post here. I've been lurking for a while and decided this it was about time to speak up.:)
If you go with a mini-itx board instead of a laptop and plan on running  classic software with UAE, a single core atom might not cut it. I have  no experience with AROS but i have run e-uae on my ubuntu netbook, some  things seem to start out ok, but eventually the audio and frame rate  drop.
I also have a mini-itx dual core ion based system (also ubuntu and e-uae), it runs games fine. I have no idea how uae works in AROS but i thought this might be useful information.

Another thing to keep in mind, as far as i know the newer Atom boards  with intel chipsets only support vga out. The nvidia ion based boards  have vga+dvi+hdmi so you'll have more options.

I agree that a laptop board is the best option as far as space, heat and processor are concerned.
Hope i got that right:lol:
Merry Christmas!
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: motorollin on December 24, 2010, 09:51:28 AM
@Cammy
A OS4-compatible board would be fantastic, but sadly it's far too expensive :

@Halabus
Good point. Once I've got the spec of the laptop I'll check its ability to run UAE under AROS.
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: bloodline on December 24, 2010, 11:21:58 AM
Quote from: Cammy;601473
While it's not Intel-based, this Mini-ITX motherboard doesn't even need a fan or heatsink and runs both Aros and AmigaOS4 :D http://www.acube-systems.biz/index.php?page=hardware&pid=1


At £450 plus the cost of buying OS4... That is really going to sting, also Nicholas's PIII laptop is probably more powerful and free :)

@Moto have you factored in the cost of buying a broken A1200 or checking on Amibay for some leftover cases and keyboards from tower conversions (that's where I found an A1200 case and keyboard for my attempt at this project)
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: Duce on December 24, 2010, 11:33:54 AM
I could never get the SAM version of AROS even close to installing on my SAM 440ep.
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: motorollin on December 24, 2010, 11:56:20 AM
@bloodline
Do you think a PIII will run UAE adequately under AROS? Oh god that sounds really ungrateful, but really if I'm going to grab some free hardware I should really check it's going to do what I need it to ;)

As for the case, yeah I was planning on asking around for tower-conversion leftovers or dead A1200s. Hopefully I can find one as shiny and White as my lovely NOS A1200 :)
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: bloodline on December 24, 2010, 12:39:11 PM
Quote from: motorollin;601496
@bloodline
Do you think a PIII will run UAE adequately under AROS? Oh god that sounds really ungrateful, but really if I'm going to grab some free hardware I should really check it's going to do what I need it to ;)

I don't see why not, my first proper experience with UAE was DosUAE on a 200Mhz PII, back in 1999... I was totally blown away by the fact that it was easily 2 to 3 times faster than my real 040 Amiga (in CPU alone, chipset operations were infinitely faster, if need be)... And has built in RTG/AHI support... That is when I knew the Amiga was dead.

UAE in AROS on a PIII should rock (especially if it has a Nvidia gfx chip), and if you use Janus then it should be effectively seamless experience :)

Quote
As for the case, yeah I was planning on asking around for tower-conversion leftovers or dead A1200s. Hopefully I can find one as shiny and White as my lovely NOS A1200 :)

There are plenty around ;)
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: motorollin on December 24, 2010, 01:30:44 PM
@bloodline
Thanks :D Hopefully I'll be able to find a housing quite easily, and if I get some crimbo cash that'll pay for the Keyrah.
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: fishy_fiz on December 24, 2010, 02:07:25 PM
@Nicholas

Maybe the festive season is rubbing off on me, but I felt compelled to say kudos on your offer, not sure if there's a thumbs up icon/smiley, but if there was I'd probably place one roughly here ---->

@Motorollin

In regards to UAE speed on the aforementioned laptop once upon a time I used to use a copermine based celeron @ 1058mhz + nvidia gfx based machine for my aros box. It's been a number of years (this is pre nouveau gfx for nvidia on aros), but Id imagine the results wouldnt be too dissimilar to the results of a mobile p3 933 based system. If memory serves me correctly it was more than acceptable for most things, and what did struggle was more a result of the emulation itself (ie. will still be quirky regardless of what hardware grunt is thrown at it). One thing to bare in mind though is that currently the intergration side of Janus UAE can be slow even on much faster hardware (it can be brought to a crawl on my 3.33ghz core2duo AROS box + nvidia gfx). I expect this to get better though (and janus uae is still being worked on), and there are times/conditions were the intergration is fast enough to be seemless (not always dictated by how heavy/light the 68k app(s) you're running are). For now you might find you're better off using some scripts, etc. to create your merging of 68k apps/games with AROS (ala amibridge/e-uaeload/gluae/etc.) than using the "real" intergration.

Anyway, up to you what you chose to do obviously, I just thought I'd mention some things that might be worth knowing. Again, feel free to ask if/when you have any questions. I've probably spent as much, or more time using the various aros uae's in various ways than anyone, so my trial and errors over the years may prove useful to you  :)
Title: Re: Tiniest AROS-compatible mobo?
Post by: motorollin on December 24, 2010, 02:32:45 PM
@fishy_fiz
Thanks for the info! I might well get in touch once I've got AROS installed for some advice on the best way to set up UAE :)