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Operating System Specific Discussions => AROS Research Operating System => Topic started by: bloodline on November 18, 2010, 09:01:36 AM

Title: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: bloodline on November 18, 2010, 09:01:36 AM
quick and dirty... the video codec is a mess...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trPTaLJq1mM

The periodic "fuzz" is due to the compression, the actual graphical glitches should be familiar to Amiga users as what happens when a games does something weird (often unrecoverable)... The disk unfortunately has read errors so I stopped the video, but it is still great to see.

This is our first step away from the tyranny of Amia Inc. :)
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Franko on November 18, 2010, 10:20:37 AM
Thought my medication has screwed up me eyes there for a moment, still a long way to go by the looks of it, but impressive non-the less... :)
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: bloodline on November 18, 2010, 10:29:25 AM
Quote from: Franko;592722
Thought my medication has screwed up me eyes there for a moment, still a long way to go by the looks of it, but impressive non-the less... :)
I love the fact that in future, when someone asks where to find a kickstart ROM or a Workbench disk... Instead of suggesting eBay or illicit google searches... I can just point them to AROS :)
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Franko on November 18, 2010, 10:40:45 AM
Quote from: bloodline;592724
I love the fact that in future, when someone asks where to find a kickstart ROM or a Workbench disk... Instead of suggesting eBay or illicit google searches... I can just point them to AROS :)


I hadn't looked at it that way but you right, I've still got a lot to learn about AROS but it's sure captured my interest now... :)
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: clusteruk on November 18, 2010, 10:47:38 AM
Quote from: Franko;592730
I hadn't looked at it that way but you right, I've still got a lot to learn about AROS but it's sure captured my interest now... :)

That is what I like to hear, a die hard classic user who's interest is now captured.

Softly softly catchy monkey.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Franko on November 18, 2010, 10:57:36 AM
Quote from: clusteruk;592733
That is what I like to hear, a die hard classic user who's interest is now captured.

Softly softly catchy monkey.


Nah... sorry... bored with it already back to Classics for me... :p

Only kidding... You've captured my interest but not my wallet... yet...  ;)
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: jj on November 18, 2010, 10:58:31 AM
AROS is and will be free so no wallett required
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: warpdesign on November 18, 2010, 10:58:55 AM
Quote
I love the fact that in future, when someone asks where to find a kickstart ROM or a Workbench disk...
You won't even have to do that since we can hope AROS+WinUAE bundles that will just work out of the box.

Now you'll be able to tell you friend: "just download WinUAE here, it just works out of the box" and won't have to tell him.. "actually it's not that easy, you have to get a ROM, but I can give it to you.. then you need to get the WB disks,...", answer: "oh, nevermind, that's too complicated :("
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Franko on November 18, 2010, 11:02:07 AM
Quote from: JJ;592737
AROS is and will be free so no wallett required


Now that is good news for a tight fisted Scotsman like me... :biglaugh:

(but I was thinking more along the line of the bounties... :) )
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: bloodline on November 18, 2010, 11:05:47 AM
Quote from: warpdesign;592738
You won't even have to do that since we can hope AROS+WinUAE bundles that will just work out of the box.


Toni will ensure that :)

But this is also important for users with Amiga hardware! (be that original or one of the FPGA clones)

Quote

Now you'll be able to tell you friend: "just download WinUAE here, it just works out of the box" and won't have to tell him.. "actually it's not that easy, you have to get a ROM, but I can give it to you.. then you need to get the WB disks,...", answer: "oh, nevermind, that's too complicated :("


Sadly that is currently an all too common scenario :(
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: vidarh on November 18, 2010, 11:07:53 AM
Quote from: warpdesign;592738
You won't even have to do that since we can hope AROS+WinUAE bundles that will just work out of the box.


Given that Toni Willen is involved, and that he's made it *very* clear on the AROS dev mailing list that his primary motivation is to have something that works perfectly with WinUAE (including emulation of unexpanded smaller classics) this one is virtually certain. Just a matter of time.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: warpdesign on November 18, 2010, 11:52:51 AM
Quote

(be that original or one of the FPGA clones)

Again, we can hope to have the clones bundled with their own AROS "ROM"/OS, so it would run out of the box, no need to dump and install a new copy of the ROM.

That's more Amiga-like: just plug it in, turn it on, and voila! :) Ins't it ?
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: fishy_fiz on November 18, 2010, 01:34:12 PM
Im actually interested to see what sort of 68k "amiga" os distro type packages come as a result of this. Surely it's of interest to the guys doing things like Amikit,AmigaSys, and so on. Not that I use them myself (I like to set things up myself), but it does open up a few doors for 68k amiga os distros (live booting cds for example).
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: kat0s on November 18, 2010, 01:37:00 PM
I like this project... Great news!!
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: dammy on November 18, 2010, 01:42:09 PM
Once AROS is fully ported, wonder if we will see a AROS32 created.  Guess the main question is on being able legally purchase some of the better game titles from their current IP holders.  Less some type of direct internet sales from the current IP holders is possible to set up to the end user with some DRM.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Khephren on November 18, 2010, 02:09:03 PM
Does this mean we could have a new ROM chip fror classics, with new stuff built in?
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: bloodline on November 18, 2010, 02:11:01 PM
Quote from: Khephren;592783
Does this mean we could have a new ROM chip fror classics, with new stuff built in?
Yup. Without copyright issues too.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Piru on November 18, 2010, 02:18:31 PM
Quote from: Khephren;592783
Does this mean we could have a new ROM chip fror classics, with new stuff built in?
That remains to be seen. There needs to be some serious optimization or other trickery applied to make it possible, as currently the image is way larger than 512KB.

One possibility could perhaps be to use LZMA compression for the image, but this would mean losing quite some RAM for the decompressed KS ROM.

Since UAE has no such size limitations (or the limitations can easily be worked around by locating part of the KS ROM elsewhere in memory) it will easily benefit from the new AROS KS ROM. Classic KS ROM replacement will take some more effort.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: bloodline on November 18, 2010, 02:39:37 PM
Piru is quite right, space is an issue. But there are options being explored... I'm sure he would love to see the discussion on the Dev list ;) ;) hehehe...

Also I believe that All Amiga's apart from some early ones can actually support 1MB ROMs...
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Karlos on November 18, 2010, 02:47:23 PM
Can you not just put the absolute minimum required, including disk IO support into the ROM and then load all the additional kickstart resources from the HD?

Obviously this assumes you have a classic with some sort of hard disk / CF / whatever.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: bloodline on November 18, 2010, 02:50:42 PM
Quote from: Karlos;592800
Can you not just put the absolute minimum required, including disk IO support into the ROM and then load all the additional kickstart resources from the HD?

Obviously this assumes you have a classic with some sort of hard disk / CF / whatever.
That's easy and will probably be used by most people... But Toni and Jason both want to see just how close to the original ROMs they can get, for maximum possible compatibility :)
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Heiroglyph on November 18, 2010, 03:09:03 PM
Quote from: bloodline;592798
Also I believe that All Amiga's apart from some early ones can actually support 1MB ROMs...


I think I'm out of luck with a 4000T.  If I remember correctly, these are extremely hard to upgrade to 1MB.  The extra lines aren't anywhere near the ROM chips.

I do have a hard drive and Deneb with plenty of flash so it's not a big loss.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: bloodline on November 18, 2010, 03:15:42 PM
Quote from: Heiroglyph;592810
I think I'm out of luck with a 4000T.  If I remember correctly, these are extremely hard to upgrade to 1MB.  The extra lines aren't anywhere near the ROM chips.

I do have a hard drive and Deneb with plenty of flash so it's not a big loss.
With an A4000 you would use diskbased modules anyway... Only a minimal ROM required :)
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: little on November 18, 2010, 03:29:02 PM
Quote from: Piru;592789
There needs to be some serious optimization or other trickery applied to make it possible, as currently the image is way larger than 512KB.
Is that feat really needed? The only reason I can think for wanting AROS in classic amiga (expanded or not) is to get new features for the operative system beyond what 3.9 may offer. Instead of attempting to fit everything in less than 512kb, wouldn't it be easier to boot (from a hard disk) 68k AROS using the original kickstart ROM?
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Christian Johansson on November 18, 2010, 03:29:37 PM
Quote from: Heiroglyph;592810
I think I'm out of luck with a 4000T.  If I remember correctly, these are extremely hard to upgrade to 1MB.  The extra lines aren't anywhere near the ROM chips.

I do have a hard drive and Deneb with plenty of flash so it's not a big loss.


You could use a Kickflash card perhaps.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: dammy on November 18, 2010, 04:26:39 PM
Quote from: little;592815
Is that feat really needed? The only reason I can think for wanting AROS in classic amiga (expanded or not) is to get new features for the operative system beyond what 3.9 may offer. Instead of attempting to fit everything in less than 512kb, wouldn't it be easier to boot (from a hard disk) 68k AROS using the original kickstart ROM?


I think their goal is eventually to get to the point where people can start coding upgraded kickstart ROMs for the different series/revisions again.  Imagine if you will, new updated kickstart/workbench coming from the classic community and not from AI.  Why be content with today's kickstart?
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: little on November 18, 2010, 05:16:07 PM
Quote from: dammy;592829
Why be content with today's kickstart?

Why not? Look at the x86 bios, I can't think of any new features since the days of the 386, at most it supports new hardware, which is not an issue with classic amiga models. All new features can be implemented in the AROS. There might be some small issues, like having to create a boot partition in big hard disks or hard disks with newer filesystems, but having modern/free software makes it worth it.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: trekiej on November 18, 2010, 05:29:06 PM
Booting into vga or ntsc would be nice on an A1200.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: dammy on November 18, 2010, 05:32:48 PM
Quote from: little;592839
Why not? Look at the x86 bios, I can't think of any new features since the days of the 386, at most it supports new hardware, which is not an issue with classic amiga models. All new features can be implemented in the AROS. There might be some small issues, like having to create a boot partition in big hard disks or hard disks with newer filesystems, but having modern/free software makes it worth it.


That's my point, there are reasons to want updated kickstart on the classic Amigas.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Heiroglyph on November 18, 2010, 05:33:33 PM
Quote from: little;592839
Why not? Look at the x86 bios, I can't think of any new features since the days of the 386, at most it supports new hardware, which is not an issue with classic amiga models. All new features can be implemented in the AROS. There might be some small issues, like having to create a boot partition in big hard disks or hard disks with newer filesystems, but having modern/free software makes it worth it.


But Kickstart is way more than just the BIOS, it's also the core of the OS.

Personally I'd like to boot directly into my RTG screen without having to screw with flickerfixers or ancient monitors and you can't do that unless Kickstart includes RTG.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: kolla on November 18, 2010, 05:39:21 PM
Quote from: little;592839
Why not? Look at the x86 bios

No, please... let's not, look at EFI instead.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: eb15 on November 18, 2010, 05:49:26 PM
As I see it, AROS boot roms for classic machines should be able to boot from supported USB interfaces, boot from CD or DVD or USB drives, be upgraded to support other file systems and have options for choosing monitor to display on if RTG card is found, etc.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: little on November 18, 2010, 05:58:28 PM
Quote from: Heiroglyph;592845
But Kickstart is way more than just the BIOS, it's also the core of the OS.

Personally I'd like to boot directly into my RTG screen without having to screw with flickerfixers or ancient monitors and you can't do that unless Kickstart includes RTG.
A more simple solution would be to get a "small" HDTV TV, you could connect the amiga RCA video out to one of the composite video in and connect the RTG card to the VGA port, you can get the best of both worlds, what you really need is an adapter that converts the amiga video port to scart or component to get the best screen quality.


Quote from: kolla;592847
No, please... let's not, look at EFI instead.
I prefer OpenBIOS, EFI was created by Intel with the evil intentions of removing the control you have over you own computer and giving it Windows or OSX (or any other closed source OS).

Quote from: eb15;592849
As I see it, AROS boot roms for classic machines should be able to boot from supported USB interfaces, boot from CD or DVD or USB drives, be upgraded to support other file systems, etc.
Booting from CD/DVD/USB sound nice until you ask yourself, what I am goint to boot besides Workbench/Wanderer? Linux and any other OS is dog slow and AROS is getting access to the same apps available in linux. ATM I cannot think of any other OS that would be available to boot in a classic amiga, so why bother.

Booting from other filesystem is not really needed, as I explained you can create a boot partition to access any other installed filesystem.

As I see it, all the hard work that would be required to cram AROS into 512kb can be used in other projects, it should be far easier to place only the real essentials in said AROS rom (that can include RTG, CD/DVD/USB boot, other filesystems) and load anything else from hard disk.

Mhh, maybe the AROS roms should fork into two, one rom for classic amigas so they can run the latest AROS and one for emulators/minimig/natami with the intention of reimplementing the original kickstart (even if it doubles in size to 1 Mb).
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Khephren on November 18, 2010, 06:31:19 PM
Well, you could have a version of your workbench bootable, for when you bugger it up, just copy it over. You could take your whole system to a show, just on a disk. You could boot straight into a CD32 game etc Would these things be feasable?

Also, is the ROM hard coded to 512K, could elements of it be powerpacked etc?
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: A1260 on November 18, 2010, 07:29:20 PM
these new a1200 accelerator cards have a re-kick option from software (supports up to 1MB Kickstart ROM images)

http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=43&products_id=1005

so homemade rom images can come in handy...
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: warpdesign on November 18, 2010, 08:30:25 PM
Quote from: kolla;592847
I prefer OpenBIOS, EFI was created by Intel with the evil intentions of removing the control you have over you own computer and giving it Windows or OSX (or any other closed source OS).


What's the difference from a user point of view ?

I don't see any...
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: kolla on November 18, 2010, 08:33:57 PM
Quote from: little;592850
I prefer OpenBIOS, EFI was created by Intel with the evil intentions of removing the control you have over you own computer and giving it Windows or OSX (or any other closed source OS).


Sure, that's OpenFirmware - I don't care - just don't look at old PC BIOS.

Quote
Booting from CD/DVD/USB sound nice until you ask yourself, what I am goint to boot besides Workbench/Wanderer?

I don't see the relevance, the point is that you have to boot from something, and with custom kickstart you can decide for yourself what that something can be.

Quote
Linux and any other OS is dog slow and AROS is getting access to the same apps available in linux. ATM I cannot think of any other OS that would be available to boot in a classic amiga, so why bother.


None of that made any sense to me.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: SamuraiCrow on November 18, 2010, 09:14:30 PM
Quote from: kolla;592874
None of that made any sense to me.


He was saying that AROS is a natural upgrade path from AmigaOS and Linux isn't because it's slower.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Karlos on November 18, 2010, 09:16:45 PM
Speaking of which, weren't the debian guys looking at migrating their M68K fork to coldfire?
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: little on November 18, 2010, 09:55:39 PM
Quote from: warpdesign;592873
What's the difference from a user point of view ?

I don't see any...

ATM there is none, but their plan it to eventually prevent you from installing free and open operative systems (i.e. linux, aros) using any excuse (like the lack of proper DRM) to justify the need for motherboard manufacturers to install said bios.

If the plan was to simply improve the bios they would have gone with openbios (like apple used to before switching to EFI).
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: eb15 on November 19, 2010, 01:24:18 AM
Quote from: little;592850

Booting from CD/DVD/USB sound nice until you ask yourself, what I am goint to boot besides Workbench/Wanderer?

Games?  Dedicated Apps?  All the usual suspects that were done before on (often write protected) floppy disks, but with lots more room for content....
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Heiroglyph on November 19, 2010, 01:53:21 AM
Every user that has ever had trouble either finding a bootable Amiga floppy or getting that one extra library onto their 060 or A4000T would love to boot from CD or USB.

Those show up here at least once a week.

How about recovery disk/tool CD that can be legally downloaded from the net and burned on any computer in case your system drive is hosed?

Also, I would have loved to install OS3.9 cleanly without having to install 3.1 plus a bunch of freeware BS just to get the 3.9 install started.

The recovery floppy is a joke even if you do have a high density floppy and does you no good if you only have a blank, non-working Amiga.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: bloodline on November 21, 2010, 11:32:50 AM
My second AROS 68K video... oh yeah!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz1dyXMdtNE
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Gulliver on November 21, 2010, 11:58:04 AM
Nice video!
At least now it can list files, and has more error requesters, which is a good thing because it shows some progress. :)

Keep the videos coming!
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: bloodline on November 21, 2010, 07:10:40 PM
Quote from: Gulliver;593383
Nice video!
At least now it can list files, and has more error requesters, which is a good thing because it shows some progress. :)

Keep the videos coming!
Nothing very interesting... but some stuff actually working :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0XT-nrkB8s
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: hceline on November 21, 2010, 09:06:39 PM
@bloodline
nice but one thing struck me as I watched your last video;
I do not think the shell stopped working, seems to me the issue was the about program was not releasing the shell.
Misa thinks you shoulda tried with "run" or "runback" if these commands exist on aros:rtfm:
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: bloodline on November 21, 2010, 09:11:38 PM
Quote from: hceline;593455
@bloodline
nice but one thing struck me as I watched your last video;
I do not think the shell stopped working, seems to me the issue was the about program was not releasing the shell.
Misa thinks you shoulda tried with "run" or "runback" if these commands exist on aros:rtfm:
Yeah, I was a spanner... as soon as I had stopped the record, I remembered that programs don't automatically detach from the CLI :) It's been awhile since AmigaOS/AROS was my main OS :p

I should have ¨run¨ the about program :)
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: warpdesign on November 21, 2010, 09:30:47 PM
What about doing some "relabel dh0: workbench" so that you don't get these "please insert volume workbench" anymore ? ;)

Btw, what are you exactly demonstrating on these videos ?

 - (CBM) WB3.x on AROS ROM, right ?
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: bloodline on November 21, 2010, 09:43:20 PM
Quote from: warpdesign;593458
What about doing some "relabel dh0: workbench" so that you don't get these "please insert volume workbench" anymore ? ;)


Actually the hard drive is called Workbench... no idea why it keeps asking me for the volume... I'm guessing some parts are missing from the DOS library.

Quote

Btw, what are you exactly demonstrating on these videos ?

 - (CBM) WB3.x on AROS ROM, right ?


no, this is all AROS... just waiting on Jason getting everything needed in ROM before we can boot WB3.0 :)
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: warpdesign on November 21, 2010, 10:03:32 PM
Quote from: bloodline;593460
Actually the hard drive is called Workbench... no idea why it keeps asking me for the volume... I'm guessing some parts are missing from the DOS library.



no, this is all AROS... just waiting on Jason getting everything needed in ROM before we can boot WB3.0 :)

Ok :)

Mind posting your config file somewhere btw ? Wish I could give it a try :)
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: bloodline on November 21, 2010, 10:16:41 PM
Quote from: warpdesign;593461
Ok :)

Mind posting your config file somewhere btw ? Wish I could give it a try :)
I'll upload an archive of my config + roms and disks ASAP :)

But UAE set up as an A1200 + 4meg fast should be able to run the 68k nightly (aros.org/downloads) just fine for you.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: wawrzon on November 22, 2010, 12:38:00 AM
cool videos. pity i cant dedicate my a4000 to do testing at this stage. who knows, maybe i should get another flash equipped usb controller for another mchine.

btw. pulling windows offscreen works already with aga hid. :) not bad.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: eb15 on November 22, 2010, 04:41:53 PM
Maybe there's a broken case sensitive string comparison when it should be case insensitive type of issue so its just complaining that "Workbench" != "workbench".  Look closely to what the requester says and what the info command reports.  

I forget how to show the current "path" of the shell.  It might have an extra workbench: in there. There might be a typo in the startup-sequence or shell startup with the case difference.  It shouldn't matter on a native Amiga file system but could be a problem with an emulated file system where the underlying native file system is case sensitive (unix).
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: bloodline on November 24, 2010, 09:06:42 AM
Yet another Video... stuff actually works now :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNZYK5byx6c
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Fransexy_ on November 24, 2010, 11:26:20 AM
Quote from: bloodline;594015
Yet another Video... stuff actually works now :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNZYK5byx6c



Nothing like the real AmigaOS.The backporting of Aros to 68k shows how Aros is slow as any other actual operating system, sure it flys on super duper multi GHZ monster but is not as responsiveness as origunal OS on very, very limited hadrware.AmigaOS classic still rules!!!!
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: bloodline on November 24, 2010, 11:38:15 AM
Quote from: Fransexy_;594022
Nothing like the real AmigaOS.The backporting of Aros to 68k shows how Aros is slow as any other actual operating system, sure it flys on super duper multi GHZ monster but is not as responsiveness as origunal OS on very, very limited hadrware.AmigaOS classic still rules!!!!
Yeah, it's dog slow... But remember that this is the quick and dirty hack and slash just to get it running... Both Toni and Jason have a lot more work to do to get it up to speed. Progress has been surprisingly swift!

AROS will always be a bit slower than AmigaOS on basic system, as AmigaOS was written in assembly and AROS in C... But there is a hell of a optimisation that Toni can do on the drivers yet! :)
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Forcie on November 24, 2010, 11:38:34 AM
Quote from: Fransexy_;594022
Nothing like the real AmigaOS.The backporting of Aros to 68k shows how Aros is slow as any other actual operating system, sure it flys on super duper multi GHZ monster but is not as responsiveness as origunal OS on very, very limited hadrware.AmigaOS classic still rules!!!!

Uh, it seems that you do not realise that no platform-specific optimisations have been made whatsoever at this stage? This is still at the stage of "Wow, the code actually runs without crashing and taking the system down!"
The screen is drawn with thousands of single pixel-pushing function calls, since it is running on a fallback driver, for example. Comparing it to "real AmigaOS" performance at the current stage makes no sense at all. You are just able to see this stage because it is an open source OS. No commercial OS makers would show this stage of early development.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: nicholas on November 24, 2010, 12:20:01 PM
Quote from: Fransexy_;594022
Nothing like the real AmigaOS.The backporting of Aros to 68k shows how Aros is slow as any other actual operating system, sure it flys on super duper multi GHZ monster but is not as responsiveness as origunal OS on very, very limited hadrware.AmigaOS classic still rules!!!!


You've obviously never written a line of hardware bashing code in your life. :sigh:
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: warpdesign on November 24, 2010, 12:27:08 PM
Quote
AROS will always be a bit slower than AmigaOS on basic system, as AmigaOS was written in assembly and AROS in C...

IIRC only exec and some other libs are written in assembly. Other parts are BCPL or C (like DOS which was rewritten in 2.x)...
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: vidarh on November 24, 2010, 12:30:22 PM
Quote from: Forcie;594024
Comparing it to "real AmigaOS" performance at the current stage makes no sense at all.


The funny part is that long term it might be perfectly possibly to make AROS faster than AmigaOS. We can easily build versions with compiler optimizations targeting each individual m68k model, for example. We can draw on years and years of experience with different tradeoffs - such as knowing that on some machines using the CPU will often be far faster than using the blitter.

And as Cosmos has been demonstrating with his patched graphics.library, there's tons of parts of AmigaOS that are not perfectly optimized as is. AROS will let anyone optimize parts of it, starting from a far easier basis (make changes to the C first, fall back on inline asm if/when it makes a difference) and without any copyright issues.

AROS will take a while to reach parity in terms of performance. But long term, it really only depends on to what extent people cares.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Hattig on November 24, 2010, 12:54:01 PM
Quote from: Fransexy_;594022
Nothing like the real AmigaOS.The backporting of Aros to 68k shows how Aros is slow as any other actual operating system, sure it flys on super duper multi GHZ monster but is not as responsiveness as origunal OS on very, very limited hadrware.AmigaOS classic still rules!!!!


Thanks for your enthusiasm and positivity in comparing an unoptimised barely-weeks-old port to very mature, but closed, software.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Franko on November 24, 2010, 01:03:48 PM
Is there a projected date (or even a guesstimate) for an actual release of AROS 68K, don't wish to sound ungrateful or anything but I've begun to wonder recently why we are all still waiting around for things like AROS, the X1000, Natami or MiniMigAGA to actually appear.

I mean all these years of wishful thinking and still believing that one day something great (despite all the vapourware and broken promises of the past)  or even just something new or different will happen with the Amiga is finally starting to wear a bit thin (even for someone as dedicated as myself).  The human lifespan is quite short and limited and it would be nice to see just one of these great projects finally come to fruition before some of us old fogies finally shut down for the last time... :)
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: nicholas on November 24, 2010, 01:05:56 PM
Quote from: Franko;594033
Is there a projected date (or even a guesstimate) for an actual release of AROS 68K, don't wish to sound ungrateful or anything but I've begun to wonder recently why we are all still waiting around for things like AROS, the X1000, Natami or MiniMigAGA to actually appear.

I mean all these years of wishful thinking and still believing that one day something great (despite all the vapourware and broken promises of the past)  or even just something new or different will happen with the Amiga is finally starting to wear a bit thin (even for someone as dedicated as myself).  The human lifespan is quite short and limited and it would be nice to see just one of these great projects finally come to fruition before some of us old fogies finally shut down for the last time... :)


AROS: No schedule and rockin'!
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Fransexy_ on November 24, 2010, 01:11:49 PM
Quote from: Hattig;594032
Thanks for your enthusiasm and positivity in comparing an unoptimised barely-weeks-old port to very mature, but closed, software.


Hey!! do not be so agressive, it is only a comment of my feeling when see the video But do no get wrong I want Aros to be  successful as well as AmigaOS and MorphOS. I am a multicolour fan ;-) (before anybody make the joke, no, it has nothing to do with gay flagship)
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: nicholas on November 24, 2010, 01:16:12 PM
Quote from: Fransexy_;594036
Hey!! do not be so agressive, it is only a comment of my feeling when see the video But do no get wrong I want Aros to be  successful as well as AmigaOS and MorphOS. I am a multicolour fan ;-) (before anybody make the joke, no, it has nothing to do with gay flagship)



Well, now you come to mention it your avatar is a tad homo-erotic.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Fransexy_ on November 24, 2010, 01:28:17 PM
Quote from: nicholas;594038
Well, now you come to mention it your avatar is a tad homo-erotic.


Erotic, yes, but for girls ;-) it was an avatar that i used when i was on a online Radio. were fun days. I was missing a SAM2 like software for the Amiga to not have to use windows but well, this is another story
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Karlos on November 24, 2010, 01:30:24 PM
Quote from: Fransexy_;594044
Erotic, yes, but for girls ;-)

I'm sure well-built men are just as capable of giving gay guys the vapours too ;)
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: nicholas on November 24, 2010, 01:34:23 PM
Quote from: Karlos;594046
I'm sure well-built men are just as capable of giving gay guys the vapours too ;)


Methinks the lady doth protesteth too much! ;)
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Franko on November 24, 2010, 01:40:07 PM
Is he/she one of those Spanish Lesbo's thingy's I read about here... :)
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Fransexy_ on November 24, 2010, 01:59:28 PM
Quote from: nicholas;594038
Well, now you come to mention it your avatar is a tad homo-erotic.

Quote from: Karlos;594046
I'm sure well-built men are just as capable of giving gay guys the vapours too ;)

Quote from: Karlos;594046
I'm sure well-built men are just as capable of giving gay guys the vapours too ;)

Quote from: nicholas;594049
Methinks the lady doth protesteth too much! ;)

Quote from: Franko;594053
Is he/she one of those Spanish Lesbo's thingy's I read about here... :)

guys (that not gays ;-) ) that we stray from the subject



* anyway respect for anyone who has opted for this variant in human relations
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: vidarh on November 24, 2010, 02:13:15 PM
Quote from: Franko;594033
Is there a projected date (or even a guesstimate) for an actual release of AROS 68K,


Depends on what you'd consider an "actual release"

The deadline for the 2nd kickstart bounty that Toni is working on now is March 31st next year. Judging from his progress I'd say he'll easily beat that.

But that will "just" mean having it boot and run Wanderer (Workbench) and a few apps.

Getting it stable and to feature-parity with AmigaOS 3.1 and with roughly the same performance, and ability to fit it in a real Amiga (at least in a 1MB kickstart, or a stripped down kickstart requiring modules on disk) will probably take longer. I'd guesstimate another year to get it usable enough for people outside of AROS devs or UAE users who just want to boot mostly non-OS dependent games to want to use it much.

It could be more, but I don't think it'll be much less. The one thing that could really accelerate things is that once it gets "good enough" for more people to play with there's the chance it could really draw more people into working on AROS in general, but also get more current AROS devs involved in bug fixes/optimizations for the M68k version (I'm itching to get time to play with it in UAE)

Quote

don't wish to sound ungrateful or anything but I've begun to wonder recently why we are all still waiting around for things like AROS, the X1000, Natami or MiniMigAGA to actually appear.


Well, AROS is out there and reasonably usable, just not for classic Amigas yet. As I understand it the next version of Icaros (AROS distribution) is due out any day now.

Natami is showing great progress, so while it's still not out at least we know stuff is happening. Their "LX" board was pretty much brought up, and apparently their "MX" board which contains improvements and fixes they wanted to add after experience with the LX board is apparently right around the door (it was hinted very strongly the design is pretty much done)... Of course after the MX board design is done it'll still be at least a few months before machines are ready to buy (assuming they don't find any major flaws in the MX board design).

MinimigAGA aka FPGA Arcade is practically there - the first boards are ready and so far the tests apparently show them to be working fine. The next batch of 40(?) boards will be completed very quickly if the first 10 works fine. This one could be out in a couple of months if all goes well. This one is looking amazing - the FPGA Arcade cards don't just do MinimigAGA cores, but will do Atari ST, C64, Vic20 and a bunch of others too, and it's *tiny*.

X1000.. I guess we'll have to wait and see, seeing how quiet things are there.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: bloodline on November 26, 2010, 12:22:21 AM
Now for a video of Wanderer (Workbench clone) running... this video is so boring I forgive anyone for wanting me dead after watching it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9nqW-5I9Ag

I hate Youtube... it's 30 seconds too long:

http://www.cutiemish.com/Wanderer.avi
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: nicholas on November 26, 2010, 01:52:11 AM
Quote from: bloodline;594384
Now for a video of Wanderer (Workbench clone) running... this video is so boring I forgive anyone for wanting me dead after watching it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9nqW-5I9Ag

I hate Youtube... it's 30 seconds too long:

http://www.cutiemish.com/Wanderer.avi


Looking sexier by the day!

Thanks Matt.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: kickstart on November 26, 2010, 05:05:26 AM
When this port reach the 100% (if some day reach it) how compatible is it? any usability on real amigas? (with graphics cards of course)

I dont see the advantage over 3.1, yes aros 68k can boot from cd/dvd/usb but many users dont use cds, the speed of cf or sd changing data with pc is much faster and usb on the amiga world is used by a low percentage of users.

Dont take it wrong but these days no one can make critics about this projects
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Fats on November 27, 2010, 01:43:12 PM
Quote from: kickstart;594406

I dont see the advantage over 3.1, yes aros 68k can boot from cd/dvd/usb but many users dont use cds, the speed of cf or sd changing data with pc is much faster and usb on the amiga world is used by a low percentage of users.


If you are one of the guys that think OS3.5/OS3.9 was a step backwards then AROS is nothing for you. For the rest I think the AROS experience will/should be that of an improved OS3.9/OS3.5.

Quote from: kickstart;594406

Dont take it wrong but these days no one can make critics about this projects


I also question why people need to critic everything all the time. If there is nothing in AROS for you; what is the problem ? I'm sure lot's of people will enjoy it.

greets,
Staf.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Karlos on November 27, 2010, 01:59:32 PM
Quote from: kickstart;594406
I dont see the advantage over 3.1


It's free and can be used on your without any potential legal issues.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: dammy on November 28, 2010, 05:05:50 PM
Nvm
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Tension on November 28, 2010, 05:12:28 PM
Quote from: Heiroglyph;592964


The recovery floppy is a joke even if you do have a high density floppy and does you no good if you only have a blank, non-working Amiga.


The theory behind the Emergency disk is sound.  What do you mean?

Also, every Amiga owner should take advantage of the way AmigaOS works, and simply copy their System partition to another hard drive or CD/DVD for backup.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Heiroglyph on November 28, 2010, 06:38:50 PM
Quote from: Tension;595018
The theory behind the Emergency disk is sound.  What do you mean?


It is in theory, but in execution it fails.

If you have no working Amiga, the CD is just short of useless.  You need 3.1 floppies that haven't gone bad plus access to the internet on a PC to get a CD Driver for 3.1

If you do have another working Amiga, especially if you need an RTG driver, the emergency floppy maker isn't selective enough with what it copies to the floppy and it quickly runs out of disk space even with a high-density drive.

If you don't install RTG software or know ahead of time to set it to an interlaced mode using OS3.1, the default screenmode isn't tall enough for the screenmode prefs app to allow you to change resolutions.  The Accept/Try buttons are far off the screen so you can't accept the change.

The install was so painful that I can't imagine they ever did a real-world install during testing.  If they tested at all.

At least on the Toaster/Flyer install we included a floppy with a CD filesystem to bootstrap the install from CD.

Not having a minimal boot floppy included with the OS3.9 CD was a terrible oversight.

Quote

Also, every Amiga owner should take advantage of the way AmigaOS works, and simply copy their System partition to another hard drive or CD/DVD for backup.


That's great assuming you have a working system at some point, but AmigaOS won't get you there on its own without a stack of shareware floppies on hand.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Tension on November 28, 2010, 06:47:36 PM
Quote from: Heiroglyph;595038
It is in theory, but in execution it fails.

If you have no working Amiga, the CD is just short of useless.  You need 3.1 floppies that haven't gone bad plus access to the internet on a PC to get a CD Driver for 3.1

If you do have another working Amiga, especially if you need an RTG driver, the emergency floppy maker isn't selective enough with what it copies to the floppy and it quickly runs out of disk space even with a high-density drive.

If you don't install RTG software or know ahead of time to set it to an interlaced mode using OS3.1, the default screenmode isn't tall enough for the screenmode prefs app to allow you to change resolutions.  The Accept/Try buttons are far off the screen so you can't accept the change.

The install was so painful that I can't imagine they ever did a real-world install during testing.  If they tested at all.

At least on the Toaster/Flyer install we included a floppy with a CD filesystem to bootstrap the install from CD.

Not having a minimal boot floppy included with the OS3.9 CD was a terrible oversight.



That's great assuming you have a working system at some point, but AmigaOS won't get you there on its own without a stack of shareware floppies on hand.


I know what you mean about the screenmodes, they screwed that up for sure.

But isn't the theory of the Emergency Disk this:  You create the disk from the 3.9 Installer when your system is running.  Then when you boot from the Emergency Disk it mounts cd0: and makes some assigns and stuff so you can install 3.9 over an empty partition?  I mean, isn't the only time you will need 3.1 is if you lose your Emergency Disk floppy?
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: Heiroglyph on November 28, 2010, 06:58:43 PM
Quote from: Tension;595039
I know what you mean about the screenmodes, they screwed that up for sure.

But isn't the theory of the Emergency Disk this:  You create the disk from the 3.9 Installer when your system is running.  Then when you boot from the Emergency Disk it mounts cd0: and makes some assigns and stuff so you can install 3.9 over an empty partition?  I mean, isn't the only time you will need 3.1 is if you lose your Emergency Disk floppy?


You're right of course, but again in practice it is failing.

Once you've installed your system, the app that creates the floppy doesn't pay attention to what is needed and what just happens to be in envarc, etc.

The process fails with a disk full error and you have no way to make the floppy except by hand.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: wawrzon on November 30, 2010, 08:58:05 PM
mmm- any hints as how to boot the current 68k nightly? im still having these "no bootable media" and "looking for devs" type of messages. messed a little with ss but it seems related to kickstart, any update on this since?
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: bloodline on November 30, 2010, 10:23:10 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;595660
mmm- any hints as how to boot the current 68k nightly? im still having these "no bootable media" and "looking for devs" type of messages. messed a little with ss but it seems related to kickstart, any update on this since?
There are 3 main files, if they aren't in the current nightly then I will post a link to them.

One is the rom file, one is the extended rom file, the final one OS the boot floppy. You only need those files to play with the OS... Your configuration settings must be identical to a real A1200 too.

Happy booting x
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: wawrzon on November 30, 2010, 10:48:13 PM
yes, i have all the three, but neither booting from floppy image nor from nightly partition i can get past these dialogs. the second one says: couldnt open device uae.device. is this again something in uae setup im not familiar with ?

edit: no pointer active at this time.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: kickstart on November 30, 2010, 11:09:48 PM
Quote from: Fats;594675
If you are one of the guys that think OS3.5/OS3.9 was a step backwards then AROS is nothing for you. For the rest I think the AROS experience will/should be that of an improved OS3.9/OS3.5.



I also question why people need to critic everything all the time. If there is nothing in AROS for you; what is the problem ? I'm sure lot's of people will enjoy it.

greets,
Staf.


No problem at all, its cool to have more OS for the 68k, everyone can make non agressive critics, but if 3.1 runs fast on 030 and aros 68k isnt the same with the same 030 then its another step backwards (at least to hundreds of 030 users) but dont worry next time i ask for your permission to give an opinion.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: wawrzon on December 01, 2010, 02:00:02 AM
@kickstart: do you expect people will be shot in the woods if they dont hand back their os3.x kickstart as soon as aros68k is ready or what?
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: kickstart on December 01, 2010, 02:29:59 AM
No.
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: haywirepc on December 01, 2010, 03:51:08 AM
This is just fantastic. I can't wait to run this on classic amiga hardware but I think I will wait to try it till its further along...
 
One thing though people keep saying oh its great because ks is commercial and what not. Does anyone really think Silly Billy or anyone else can prove ownership of the kickstart rom files OR os3.X?

No way, never in a million years. I say download away...
 
But I still think AROS for 68k is awesome! Its cool that AROS can come "home" in a sense. Even if it is just a free replacement for 3.1 and is kept barebones for 68k, thats a major accomplishment.
 
Thanks for all the hard work guys!

Steven
Title: Re: Video: AROS 68K Booting
Post by: obscurepanic on December 03, 2010, 12:29:47 AM
This is a very great project! :)