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Operating System Specific Discussions => AROS Research Operating System => Topic started by: dammy on December 24, 2004, 05:31:12 PM

Title: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: dammy on December 24, 2004, 05:31:12 PM
Bounty #23, Kickstart ROM Replacement (http://www.thenostromo.com/teamaros/bounty_details_23.html) with a AROS ROM is now open.  Thanks to David F. for creating it and Tim R. for matching the initial donation.

Dammy
TeamAROS (http://www.thenostromo.com/teamaros/)
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: MskoDestny on December 30, 2004, 07:40:49 PM
Is there a more precise description of this bounty?

What kind of emulated hardware is this ROM supposed to target?  OCS? ECS? AGA?  Which memeber of the 68K family should it support?

Presumably this is going to be used with old Amiga apps and not ones recompiled for AROS.  So just how compatible does it need to be?  Does it need to support all the Kickstart 3.X ROM calls, or just those from an earlier version?
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: DFergATL on December 30, 2004, 09:42:50 PM
I don't know that I can answer all the questions but I am the one who started the bounty.

The idea is port the existing Aros "kickstart", or whatever Aros calls there version, to be able to boot in UAE.

I could not answer exactly what verion of the 68k processor.  It should be the most compatable without being overkill.  
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: DonnyEMU on December 30, 2004, 10:57:53 PM
I just read the bounty here and this confuses me too..

Bounty #23
Description:   Kickstart ROM Replacement
Bounty:   $125
Donors:   David F. ($50)
Tim R. ($50)
Olivier ($25)
Status:   Open

Objectives

   1. Create a fully functional AROS Kickstart ROM replacement for UAE.


Replacement for UAE?? Like a ROM file for UAE.. Is this for ArosUAE?? Or is it a kickstart that boots AROS on classic Amiga hardware ( was 68K Aros Made??)..  This really confuses me when I read this.. Do you intend on creating a kick.rom file that runs UAE that's made from AROS's open source kickstart (exec) routines? This is not very clear..
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: MskoDestny on December 30, 2004, 11:32:09 PM
I suppose the better question is what programs are you trying to run in UAE?  Will they run fine on an A500 running Kickstart/Workbench 1.3 or do they require an AGA machine with Kickstart 3.X or perhaps something in between?

If there are specific programs that need to work with the replacement kickstart it would be helpful to know what those are.

EDIT:
Quote
Replacement for UAE?? Like a ROM file for UAE.. Is this for ArosUAE?? Or is it a kickstart that boots AROS on classic Amiga hardware ( was 68K Aros Made??).. This really confuses me when I read this.. Do you intend on creating a kick.rom file that runs UAE that's made from AROS's open source kickstart (exec) routines? This is not very clear..

As I understand it, he (or she) is looking for a Kickstart ROM for use in classic Amigas (well emulated ones at least) based on the AROS sources.  This would not be a full port of AROS to the classic Amiga (which I believe was started at one point, but was dropped and is far from finished), but just the subset representing the functions that the Kickstart ROM is responsible for.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on December 30, 2004, 11:38:21 PM
I'm interested it doing this (have been for some time).  I've written ROM code including part of the OS for a 68020 based embedded system in the past and this would not be difficult if the pieces are there I'd need.

Boot how?  Floppy?  Hard drive?  And for which machine?
How much of the OS has to be in the ROM to qualify?  Just enough to boot from ROM or move everything possible to ROM?  Initially I'd say keep the ROM to a minimum.  That makes it easy for the bootstrap code to be compatible with all CPUs (Hint, Coldfire, Hint) and reduce the number of updates till the OS is more mature.

Just how much of the existing Amiga ROM does the Amiga version of AROS make use of (I've never looked at it)?  It has to be ZERO after it's loaded for this to work!

The Amiga needs a graphics library to even print text on the screen.  It has no hardware character generator.

Does AROS have an Amiga compatible trackdisk.device for use with the Amiga floppy drives/interface?  If not, booting from that is out of the question.

Does AROS have a scsi.device that is compatible with the 3000 or 1200 hard drive interfaces?  If not, that's out of the question.

The bootstrap code, interrupt tables, tables for libraries & devices, auto config, RAM setup, etc... are not really difficult, just time consuming.  Add on boards with their own ROM drivers could be problematic.

This is what I KNOW the ROM needs initially (unless you just have a minimal bootstrap like the 1000 did).
680x0 code to set up interupt table (and coldfire 68K emulation ;), stack, some hardware, auto config, etc...
exec.library
timer.device
trackdisk.device and or scsi.device
graphics.library (so we can display errors)
dos.library
some sort of file system
and I'm sure many other things

Anyone ever release a FLASH memory Kickstart board for the Amiga?  It would be a lot easier with that.  I have a bunch of Flash memory but I'd have to design/build an adapter board and program the chips.  The board isn't difficult to design but a professionally printed sample board, setup costs, FLASH chips, shipping... would amount to more than the bounty.  At least the last time I had a board printed initial setup wasn't cheap.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: Dan on December 31, 2004, 12:12:50 AM
Quote

DFergATL wrote:
I don't know that I can answer all the questions but I am the one who started the bounty.

The idea is port the existing Aros "kickstart", or whatever Aros calls there version, to be able to boot in UAE.

I could not answer exactly what verion of the 68k processor.  It should be the most compatable without being overkill.  

I think the best aim would be similar to a "clean" A1200, Kickstart 3.1, 020, AGA?
The goal is to get the 68k-version of AROS going for running "old" systemfriendly 68k amiga-programs in AROS-UAE without having to get a copy of Kickstart and Workbench from somewhere else, right?
Whats needed for that I have no idea about really.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on December 31, 2004, 12:38:01 AM
WinUAE ROM... didn't think of that. (Duh)  That would be the easy way to do it.  CPU independant code though (not just 68020).  Coldfire would require additional code so that would be a future option.

I'd say some libraries would have to stay on disk since the C code won't generate as small of binaries as the hand made assembly that's already there.

I'll have to see what the cross development tools are like and take a serious look at building this.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: on December 31, 2004, 01:01:31 AM
Quote

jdiffend wrote:
WinUAE ROM... didn't think of that. (Duh)  That would be the easy way to do it.  CPU independant code though (not just 68020).  Coldfire would require additional code so that would be a future option.

I'd say some libraries would have to stay on disk since the C code won't generate as small of binaries as the hand made assembly that's already there.

I'll have to see what the cross development tools are like and take a serious look at building this.


Excellent, I knew someone somewhere would have the neccessary skills to do this, and more importantly also want to do it! :-D

I think everyone who uses UAE in one of it's forms would love to see it have a 68k ROM replacement and AROS running under it instead of OS3.x

I'm gonna donate to the bounty in a couple of weeks when i get my student loan.  I urge everyone else who can afford it to do so too.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: dammy on December 31, 2004, 03:14:26 PM
Quote
Replacement for UAE?? Like a ROM file for UAE.. Is this for ArosUAE?? Or is it a kickstart that boots AROS on classic Amiga hardware ( was 68K Aros Made??).. This really confuses me when I read this.. Do you intend on creating a kick.rom file that runs UAE that's made from AROS's open source kickstart (exec) routines? This is not very clear..


I've reworded it to include more information (http://www.thenostromo.com/teamaros/bounty_details_23.html).

Dammy
TeamAROS (http://www.thenostromo.com/teamaros/)
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on December 31, 2004, 06:34:53 PM
I spent some time looking at this and here is what I found.

The current 68K port that was in the works isn't available for download and was for the Palm anyway.  That in itself is no big deal but it means there are no AROS scsi.device driver, trackdisk.device or graphics drivers for the Amiga hardware.

I seem to remember a replacement ide driver for the 1200/4000 that was open source but I'm not certain.  That could be the basis for a driver to boot from the hard drive.

I once worked on a program to read COCO 5 1/4" disks on the Amiga 5 1/4" drives and I really don't want to write a trackdisk.device.  That's just too much work.  If anyone knows of a replacement that's open source then it might be possible.

As for graphics... that alone would be as much work as everything else combined.  After all, your talking about supporting all video modes, sprites, etc... for full 3.1 compatability.  

I sat down last night and wrote some C code that was the functional equivalent of the initial exec startup code.  It still needs stack pointer set and cache contral set but it does set up some hardware, set the LED, check for first time startup, set up interrupt table (partially complete) etc...  Only around 100-150 lines so far with comments but it's pretty easy.

Getting the machine to boot from IDE wouldn't really bother me... but I'm not thrilled about writing the trackdisk.device and graphics.library.  
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: MskoDestny on January 01, 2005, 07:17:25 AM
There is an amiga folder in the unmaintained folder of the AROS source, but from the looks of things it's all quite old and incomplete.  Might be easier than starting from scratch though.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 01, 2005, 04:50:00 PM
Quote
MskoDestny wrote:
There is an amiga folder in the unmaintained folder of the AROS source, but from the looks of things it's all quite old and incomplete.  Might be easier than starting from scratch though.


If it's old it would probably require as much work to get it in sync with the latest release (not that AROS has ever really had an official release version) as it would to do it over.  Besides, most of what I'd have to do probably isn't in there at all.

A bootable Amiga AROS is one thing... a 3.1 REPLACEMENT implies a lot more work.  Booting AROS means porting enough of AROS to boot and some startup code to set up the hardware.  A 3.1 replacement means it has to support ALL graphics modes from the Amiga.  That alone may be a larger project than many of the other bounties combined and then there are other hardware drivers that need to be written.

Remember, on PC's most graphics are chunky... on the Amiga most use bit planes and the AROS graphics lib isn't likely to support that.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 01, 2005, 06:25:09 PM
I'm looking through the AROS source now and I keep finding things that need to be written to build an Amiga version.

At this point I think it's safe to say that a fully 3.1 compatible ROM is NOT practical.

What is practical:
Bootstrap code
exec.library
Timer.device
keyboard
ide driver
Fixed mode graphics display not using hardware blitter/sprites
existing AROS file systems
And as many of the AROS libs as the ROM will hold.

This should allow any program that works when recompiled under AROS to work and even some games that directly bang the hardware... but 100% compatibility is something that would require way too much work.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: on January 01, 2005, 08:12:13 PM
Quote

jdiffend wrote:
I'm looking through the AROS source now and I keep finding things that need to be written to build an Amiga version.

At this point I think it's safe to say that a fully 3.1 compatible ROM is NOT practical.

What is practical:
Bootstrap code
exec.library
Timer.device
keyboard
ide driver
Fixed mode graphics display not using hardware blitter/sprites
existing AROS file systems
And as many of the AROS libs as the ROM will hold.

This should allow any program that works when recompiled under AROS to work and even some games that directly bang the hardware... but 100% compatibility is something that would require way too much work.


Speaking for myself, I would be happy just to have a rom replacement that can boot UAE into a 68k compiled AROS.  As you say, 100% compatibility is impractical, and I don't think it's even neccessary.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: Dan on January 01, 2005, 11:00:28 PM
Quote

mdma wrote:
Speaking for myself, I would be happy just to have a rom replacement that can boot UAE into a 68k compiled AROS.  As you say, 100% compatibility is impractical, and I don't think it's even neccessary.

Agreed!
AROS was supposed to be binary-compatible to WB3.1 on 68k but has anyone tried it, I mean AROS hosted on 68k-Linux will it run amiga-programs?
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: Dr_Righteous on January 02, 2005, 05:10:09 AM
It sounds pretty self explanitory to me. Since the ROM IS the OS, it must be written in order for AROS to run on Amigas. That's why so little work has been done to port AROS to Amiga... It's impossible without writing a ROM.

Writing it to work under UAE is the first step. When complete, we should be able to burn it to an EPROM, and have it run on an A1200 or A4000.

Practical or not, it MUST be 100% compatable.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 02, 2005, 07:20:38 PM
Quote

Dr_Righteous wrote:

Practical or not, it MUST be 100% compatable.


REALITY CHECK

Not only is it impractical... it's impossible.  100% compatability means that everything in the Amiga 3.1 ROM has to be in the AROS ROM.  The Amiga ROM was hand written assembly with many tricks to squeeze everything into the ROM which only has a few bytes of unused free space.  AROS is written in C and would take much more space.  There's no way everything would fit in the ROM.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: dammy on January 02, 2005, 08:37:36 PM
Quote
Not only is it impractical... it's impossible. 100% compatability means that everything in the Amiga 3.1 ROM has to be in the AROS ROM. The Amiga ROM was hand written assembly with many tricks to squeeze everything into the ROM which only has a few bytes of unused free space. AROS is written in C and would take much more space. There's no way everything would fit in the ROM.


Does the AROS ROM replacement have to be the same size as the orginal kickstart for the use of the kick.rom in E-UAE/UAE?  If it doesn't, it's not an issue that I can see for the bounty.  We're just wanting E-UAE/UAE to be happy and boot is all so it can run most apps. ;)


Dammy
TeamAROS
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: Ilwrath on January 02, 2005, 09:10:40 PM
Quote

Does the AROS ROM replacement have to be the same size as the orginal kickstart for the use of the kick.rom in E-UAE/UAE? If it doesn't, it's not an issue that I can see for the bounty. We're just wanting E-UAE/UAE to be happy and boot is all so it can run most apps. ;)


And then integrate the now totally free Amiga IP free E-UAE/UAE into x86 AROS to get the much-fabled 680x0 compatability enhancer for old Amiga programs?  (Much like how OSX can launch programs in an OS9-type environment)  That would make this is a very interesting bounty.  :-)
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: MskoDestny on January 02, 2005, 09:10:59 PM
You could compress the ROM and prepend it with a small routine to decompress it to RAM.  Since the target is UAE and not necessarily a real Amiga, adding a little extra RAM to make up for what is lost by the ROM isn't that big of a deal.

In addition there are now Zorro cards like the Kickflash and E/Flash that allow for 1 and 2MB ROMs.  Not sure if this kind of thing is supported by UAE though.

EDIT: Typo
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: Doobrey on January 02, 2005, 11:39:14 PM
For UAE, you`re limited to a 1Mb rom image
 The first 512k @$f80000 , and the second @$E00000 (which UAE calls the extended rom space). Just remember to add a jump to the startup code from $E00004, since that block will be mapped to 0 on bootup.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 03, 2005, 02:47:28 AM
The Amiga memory map has a fixed amount of space reserved for ROMs, go over that and you'll hamper compatability.  The OS 3.1 ROM is 512K if I remember right.  Anything that doesn't fit the ROM can be loaded from disk, but that still means it's not 100% compatible.

The expansion ROM is for applications like the CDTV.  The CDTV interface sat in the expansion ROM area and I'm guessing that's how the video games based on the Amiga 500 worked as well.

Now, no matter what solution you come up with to the ROM space issue you're not going to change the amount of work this project requires.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 03, 2005, 03:08:14 AM
Quote

dammy wrote:
Does the AROS ROM replacement have to be the same size as the orginal kickstart for the use of the kick.rom in E-UAE/UAE?  If it doesn't, it's not an issue that I can see for the bounty.  We're just wanting E-UAE/UAE to be happy and boot is all so it can run most apps. ;)

Dammy
TeamAROS


The AROS ROM only has to fit in the reserved area in the Amiga memory map.  If you go over 512K it won't work in a real Amiga.  With UAE you can take advantage of extra ROM space without problems.  For a real ROM you'd need an adapter that plugs into the ROM socket and adds the extra address line for the 2nd half of the ROM address space... if there is 1MB reserved for ROM that is.  I honestly don't remember.

If space were the only issue, the least used stuff could be placed in the upper 512K of the ROM space and the remaining code could be built for a 2nd ROM and disk versions.  It's not that big of deal to have the make files build both.  The main difference between the ROM and disk versions of an Amiga library or device and the ROM one is that the disk version has to add a little code at the start to return in the event someone tries to execute it.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: Dr_Righteous on January 03, 2005, 04:07:45 AM
I'm sorry, I thought there were classic Amiga, and indeed retrocomputing fans on this site. People who remember the 90's. Cramming everything needed to boot AROS on to 1MB of ROM space is impossible? Gee, can no one here write in assembler? Has everyone forgotten that back in then we did this kinda $#!% all the time?

The only things that need to be on the ROM are the AROS equivillant versions of what's on the Kickstart ROMs... Essentially the drivers necessary for the system to recognize its vital hardware and continue booting from the main boot device.

In the case of the bounty, only what is necessary for UAE to boot up... No matter what chipset it's for. Start small, think big. Yes, ultimately it should be the equivillant to a complete A1200 or A4000 ROM set... But this is just the first step.

Oh, and anyone who thinks writing the core OS features necessary to boot AROS within 1MB of space has completely forgotten about the QNX demo floppy. Impossible?? I think not. Cut out the GUI and I'm sure it'd be less than 512K.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: on January 03, 2005, 03:15:04 PM
@Dr_Righteous

?!?!?!?

First you say

Quote
Practical or not, it MUST be 100% compatable.


then you say

Quote
The only things that need to be on the ROM are the AROS equivillant versions of what's on the Kickstart ROMs... Essentially the drivers necessary for the system to recognize its vital hardware and continue booting from the main boot device.


Make your mind up mate! ;-)
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 03, 2005, 05:09:49 PM
Quote

Dr_Righteous wrote:
Cramming everything needed to boot AROS on to 1MB of ROM space is impossible? Gee, can no one here write in assembler? Has everyone forgotten that back in then we did this kinda $#!% all the time?


The Amiga 3.1 ROM is 512K, not 1MB.  I know most if not all Amigas don't have an address line to the ROM for a 1MB ROM.  I know, I designed a commercial ROM switcher for the Amiga back in the day.  And adding that address line would AT LEAST require an adaptor board and possibly soldering to a surface mount part on some machines.  Something I doubt everyone here can do.  

Yes, I have written in assembler a lot, but AROS is written in C and I'm not writing an OS from scratch for less than what I earn from a day's work at consulting.  Hell, I could make more in a few days at McDonalds.  This isn't just about the bonus but it certainly needs a reasonable scope for the project to be worth taking on.

Quote
Oh, and anyone who thinks writing the core OS features necessary to boot AROS within 1MB of space has completely forgotten about the QNX demo floppy. Impossible?? I think not.


The current ROM in hand optimized assembly that Commodore spent years developing and it FILLS 512K.  We were talking about a replacement ROM... which would be 512K.  I wasn't talking about 1MB.  Take the limits on ROM size away and I could put the entire AROS project in there.  But that isn't what was originally stated.

Quote
Cut out the GUI and I'm sure it'd be less than 512K.

Ok genious... just how the heck do I cut out the GUI?  The Amiga hardware has no character generator, only graphics (didn't I already say this?).  The Amiga HAS to open the graphics library to even print text.

Do I really need to say that of all the things you could have suggested to leave out of the ROM you picked one of the last things you could possibly leave out?  If you are talking about Workbench, it has always loaded from disk... but it's not that big since the GUI is in ROM.

Quote
we did this kinda $#!% all the time?

We?  This from the guy that suggests the GUI should be left out of the ROM?  Oh please.

Look, I used to be a partner in a couple companies that developed Amiga software and hardware.  I spent years developing software and hardware for it.  I've also spent years developing for embedded systems and I even reverse engineered the Amiga 3.1 exec back to source code form including comments as to what everything does.  Even though it's been a long time since I worked with the Amiga, I still have a better idea of what's involved in this than you EVER will.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: bloodline on January 03, 2005, 06:27:50 PM
I think what is needed, first off, is simply a bootstrap ROM that POSTs the Hardware, gets the hardware to a known state and starts the AROS Exec.library up and running...

jdiffend, do you think you could get that far?

Once we get to that point, we should be able to use parts of the original OS to test how compatible the AROS exec and Bootstrap is with the original system.

Once that is done, an IDE driver will be needed to load the rest of the OS :-)

As for an Amiga hardware graphics.library, well that is going to be a headache, and one could probably ignore (send any debug info to the serial) it and use Cybergfx/picasso96 natively instead... at least until someone bothers to write a new graphics.library... though AROS is better suited to Amiga's with Gfxboards anyway. AROS intuition and layers libraries were written to work with a cybergfx interface anyway :-D
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 03, 2005, 07:52:12 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
I think what is needed, first off, is simply a bootstrap ROM that POSTs the Hardware, gets the hardware to a known state and starts the AROS Exec.library up and running...


That's pretty close to what I was thinking.  Initializing hardware, identifying/setting up the CPU and starting the exec are probably the most mysterious to programmers and has probably held people back from doing this before.  Initially I'd aim at supporting one CPU and go back and support others later.

Once that and a boot device driver is complete and the machine is capable of loading other libs/devices from disk, other people can work on whatever they want and it can be integrated into the ROM over time.

Quote

jdiffend, do you think you could get that far?


I have an old machine I'm setting up under Linux as a dev box for this.  Once it's going I can install the AROS development tools and sources and get a better idea of what's involved.

This isn't really so much difficult as it is time consuming and I'll only undertake it if I know I have the time for the job.  I'm worried about possible endian issues and all the OS routines I'd need to write for the AROS exec.

Quote

Once we get to that point, we should be able to use parts of the original OS to test how compatible the AROS exec and Bootstrap is with the original system.


Without a graphics.library clone your going to find that only DOS commands and RTG compatible programs are going to work.

I suppose I could write a utility to extract devices like the trackdisk.device from the current ROM and turn it into a disk based version until someone writes a replacement.  That way we could focus on other issues at first.  I can't promise that will work since the ROM code may skirt a few rules to save space.  The graphics.library is a prime candidate for this as well.


Quote

Once that is done, an IDE driver will be needed to load the rest of the OS :-)


I think I'll need that before I can say it actually boots.  If you mean starts the exec and prints the AROS logo on the screen then I agree.  (ok, there's still a graphics lib issue)  

If someone wants to work on a boot logo/screen for the Amiga version that would be one less job to undertake.  Think of a simple 4 color AROS logo bitmap rather than the kitty mascot.  Whatever ROM space it takes up leaves less for something else.  Look at the current boot screen that comes up on a 1200 to get an idea of what to do.  No animated or fancy stuff till we start filling up the ROM and see where were at.  There are more important things.

Quote

As for an Amiga hardware graphics.library, well that is going to be a headache, and one could probably ignore (send any debug info to the serial) it and use Cybergfx/picasso96 natively instead... at least until someone bothers to write a new graphics.library... though AROS is better suited to Amiga's with Gfxboards anyway. AROS intuition and layers libraries were written to work with a cybergfx interface anyway :-D


Yeah, I have no intentions of writing a 100% compatable graphics.library at this time.  What I thought of doing was setting the display to a fixed AGA mode and copying a logo to it for testing.

Tweaking AROS graphics.library to RUN RTG on it.  Ugh... chunky vs planar grapics.  I forgot about that.  Does AROS support planar graphics or is it chunky only?  That could be a major problem.  I suppose we are forced to use cybergfx to do anything or temporarily borrow the Amiga graphics lib for development.

I think at least some of us are on the same page as to what can/needs to be done.  At least what you are saying is reasonable and possible.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 03, 2005, 08:05:50 PM
While I'm asking for stuff like the logo there are a couple other things that would be nice to have.  If anyone knows where to find this stuff post a link here please.

I know there is sample source code for identifying different 68K cpus.  I need some public domain source to base this on.  I only need it to set the cpu flags and initialise registers and I don't want to be looking at any of Amiga's code when I write it.  I want to make absolutely sure there are no copywrite issues.  Reverse engineering is legal for compatibility... but the less I have to use it the safer we are.

I'm also looking for scsi.device and or ide.device source code, serial.device source code, etc... if they exist they would probably be on Aminet but the less time I have to look for them the better and the less I have to write myself.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: bloodline on January 03, 2005, 09:24:30 PM
Quote
I think I'll need that before I can say it actually boots. If you mean starts the exec and prints the AROS logo on the screen then I agree. (ok, there's still a graphics lib issue)

If someone wants to work on a boot logo/screen for the Amiga version that would be one less job to undertake. Think of a simple 4 color AROS logo bitmap rather than the kitty mascot. Whatever ROM space it takes up leaves less for something else. Look at the current boot screen that comes up on a 1200 to get an idea of what to do. No animated or fancy stuff till we start filling up the ROM and see where were at. There are more important things.


Great idea!
(http://www.ahsodit.com/AROSLOGO.gif)

4 colours, 640*512 :-D




Quote
Tweaking AROS graphics.library to RUN RTG on it. Ugh... chunky vs planar grapics. I forgot about that. Does AROS support planar graphics or is it chunky only? That could be a major problem. I suppose we are forced to use cybergfx to do anything or temporarily borrow the Amiga graphics lib for development.
 


Not really sure what you mean here :-(

The AROS graphics library is just a wrapper to the graphics.hidd which is the actual graphics driver... the AROS cybergraphics.library is also a wrapper to the graphics.hidd.

The Graphics hidd is basicly an exec library with extra bits to allow for a nice OOP design.

AROS has support for both planar and chunky graphics... as it's default mode is the 4 colour planar VGA mode that all PC gfx boards support.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: DFergATL on January 03, 2005, 10:04:50 PM
To Everyone:

I still think the wording for this and what I intended are not quite the same.  It does not have to be a 3.1 Amiga OS compatiable rom.  Just an Aros "rom" that boots on UAE.

If any dev who wants to take this on but feels that the "requirements" on the Team Aros website are not stated in a pratical way.  Let me know, I do belive (could be wrong) that because I started the blasted thing I can have the wording changed....

Remember that the end goal is to be able to run Amiga software (as much as pratically possiable) run on Aros UAE (or E-UAE) without requiring an actual Amiga Rom... Recreating the entire Amgia 3.1 rom is not a requirement...Porting the entire Aros OS is not a requirement...Just the end goal......

Once again if someone wants to take this on but needs the "requirements" changed in order to make it doable...That can be done....

Dave Ferguson (DFergATL)

Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 03, 2005, 10:06:46 PM
LOL, I knew I'd get a full screen bitmap with the cat on it.  

Looks great... but what does it compress down to as an ILBM image.  I can clear the screen to black and just load the logo portion to save some space but that is still bigger than I planned since we're going to end up short on ROM space.  Purrrrrhaps (sorry... couldn't resist) the AROS, Kitty and text could be separate bitmaps.  (If you know the font of the insert disk text I could just put the font in the ROM if it's not too big :-D )  Just keep track of the offsets from the top/side of the image where your cuts take place so I know where to blit them onto the screen.

Quote
Not really sure what you mean here


I just wasn't sure if the AROS graphics supported bitplanes.  Been a long time since I looked at it.  If it didn't, it would be a real PITA to make it work.  Since it supports a 4 color planar mode as default, that's a great start.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: Doobrey on January 03, 2005, 11:41:05 PM
Quote

jdiffend wrote:
I suppose I could write a utility to extract devices like the trackdisk.device from the current ROM and turn it into a disk based version until someone writes a replacement.


I`ve already got that far with Remus (http://www.doobreynet.co.uk/flash.html).
 Unfortunately, it`s the {bleep}ing extraction that I`m rewriting at the moment !
Lemme know what 3.1 Kickstart you`ve got, and I can send you something split it up for you.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 04, 2005, 03:00:29 AM
Quote

Doobrey wrote:
I`ve already got that far with Remus (http://www.doobreynet.co.uk/flash.html).
 Unfortunately, it`s the {bleep}ing extraction that I`m rewriting at the moment !
Lemme know what 3.1 Kickstart you`ve got, and I can send you something split it up for you.


I already have it split up in the disassembly myself and can just assemble it if needed.  I'm thinking more for the 1st distro version which will be pretty limited.

BTW, I went to your web page... what a rat's nest of wires! Gotta love prototypes!  LOL

I'd be happy to do a board layout if I have time.  Are you addressing the additional ROM space at the same location as UAE has it?  I could make a new board design based on the ROM switcher I already made and add the address decoding logic and a wires for the extra address line etc.  I figure one PAL would hold all the logic.  

The ROM switcher could position the AmigaOS ROM as the default and put the first AROS FLASH at the expansion address.  Then when the ROM switcher is activated the first AROS ROM is at the normal ROM space and the expansion ROM space holds the other 512K of Flash.

That would let people install the finished board without having to program the FLASH memory first.  It could just be programmed from the AmigaOS.

This is the basic logic and assumes there are two flash chips of 512K and one ROM.  This is not Verilog or VHDL... just the basic logic.  Signals on the board are in CAPS and it does not account for inverted logic levels.

SWITCH = (RESET and SWITCH_TRIGGER ???) it's a simple flip flop  that is tied to reset (so it can't change unless RESET is active and the switch trigger is active) and another signal (switch trigger) which can be a 555 timer chip (holding RESET for a preset time activates the switcher) or a wire to some button (Joystick button for example)    

HIGH_ROM_SELECT = high address decode logic (and/or of address lines stuff)

CHIP_SELECT_OUT_ROM = (CHIP_SELECT_IN and !SWITCH)

CHIP_SELECT_OUT_FLASH1 = (CHIP_SELECT_IN and SWITCH) or (HIGH_ROM_SELECT and !SWITCH)

CHIP_SELECT_OUT_FLASH2 = (SWITCH and HIGH_ROM_SELECT)

I hope that's right... I'm sick and kinda groggy.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: bloodline on January 04, 2005, 10:23:51 AM
Quote
I just wasn't sure if the AROS graphics supported bitplanes. Been a long time since I looked at it. If it didn't, it would be a real PITA to make it work. Since it supports a 4 color planar mode as default, that's a great start.

 


My Stupid brain :-(

I should have said 4 bitplanes planar, which is 16 colours :-) But that is supported by the Amiga hardware anyway so no problems :-D
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: Doobrey on January 04, 2005, 02:31:31 PM
Quote

jdiffend wrote:

I'd be happy to do a board layout if I have time.  Are you addressing the additional ROM space at the same location as UAE has it?  I could make a new board design based on the ROM switcher I already made and add the address decoding logic and a wires for the extra address line etc.  I figure one PAL would hold all the logic.


Yup..I`m building a GAL programmer now to get it all done and do the final testing.

It works pretty much as you`ve described, a jumper/switch to select either real rom or flash,another to select which is programmable at @$e00000 , and one last jumper to select either 1mb of flash or select the high or low 512k of flash if you want 2 different rom images.

The only other thing I`ve done is invert A19, so $f80000 is mapped to the lower 512kb etc, cos that way I can use the 16kb parameter block of the flash using my own nonvolatile.library for storing things like boot settings.

Get well soon, hope it wasn`t through enjoying the new year too much..
[/quote]
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: bloodline on January 04, 2005, 04:16:53 PM
For those using real Amigas, I have the AROS logo bootpic iff file to download Here (http://www.ahsodit.com/bootpic.iff).

I have squeezed it into 16 colours and optimized it to look correct at 640*256, looks great on my A500 :-) The file size is 24k, enjoy.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: dammy on January 04, 2005, 04:55:14 PM
AROS ROM bounty has been split up to Phase I (http://www.thenostromo.com/teamaros/bounty_details_23.html) and Phase II (http://www.thenostromo.com/teamaros/bounty_details_24.html).  Feel free to donate to both of them. :)

Dammy
TeamAROS (http://htpp://www.thenostromo.com/teamaros/)
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: whabang on January 04, 2005, 06:28:39 PM
This actually is move towards the possibility of an Amiga-version of the C1. A coldfire-based board with AROS, running OS 3.x applications natively would be really cool.

I'm dreaming, i know, but admit it would be cool! :-D
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: bloodline on January 04, 2005, 07:21:32 PM
Quote

whabang wrote:
This actually is move towards the possibility of an Amiga-version of the C1. A coldfire-based board with AROS, running OS 3.x applications natively would be really cool.

I'm dreaming, i know, but admit it would be cool! :-D


What do you mean dreaming? It's prefectly feasable, and only really needs this bounty to be completed.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 04, 2005, 11:53:56 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:

What do you mean dreaming? It's prefectly feasable, and only really needs this bounty to be completed.


It may be feasable but more work needs done than this bounty requires.

The coldfire has some major differences in how some things in the supervisor mode work and it would require a lot more changes to the exec and boot code than just adding the instruction emulation code.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 05, 2005, 04:58:36 AM
I should also point out that the Coldfire has built in hardware that must be set up or programmed so that it doesn't conflict with the Amiga Memory map.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: FrankBrana on January 05, 2005, 11:37:43 AM
I wish I could do something in order to give a hand, but sadly coding its not my best.

It would be great load a AROS 3.1 ROM compatible in my real amiga and then load AROS instead Workbench.
Since its opensource, the new features and progs will appear from under the stones!  :)

it surely will give new bloodline ;-) to all the classics systems, and well, if you manage to get it working on the coldfire...as far as you go, the greatest the whole thing is.

Go ahead guys!

-FrankB
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: whabang on January 05, 2005, 11:42:36 AM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
What do you mean dreaming? It's prefectly feasable, and only really needs this bounty to be completed.


Well, there's this wee little detail of actually designing a Coldfire-board, making a Coldfire-version of AROS, make it trap the non-supported instructions (which would be limited to non-MMU, and possibly non-FPU applications),  and then write proper hardware drivers for the board, and any clones. But yes, it's doable.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: on January 05, 2005, 06:48:48 PM
Quote

jdiffend wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:

What do you mean dreaming? It's prefectly feasable, and only really needs this bounty to be completed.


It may be feasable but more work needs done than this bounty requires.

The coldfire has some major differences in how some things in the supervisor mode work and it would require a lot more changes to the exec and boot code than just adding the instruction emulation code.


Maybe Elbox would be interested in AROS on their Coldfire boards?
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 05, 2005, 06:51:41 PM
Quote

whabang wrote:

Well, there's this wee little detail of actually designing a Coldfire-board, making a Coldfire-version of AROS, make it trap the non-supported instructions (which would be limited to non-MMU, and possibly non-FPU applications),  and then write proper hardware drivers for the board, and any clones. But yes, it's doable.


Actually, if you want a coldfire/AROS based computer you could buy one of the development systems with built in VGA graphics and/or PCI card slots.  They just need an AROS port, case and power.
http://www.futureelectronics.com/promos/coldfire/MCF547x/

Or, instead of designing the entire Coldfire board for existing Amiga's you could build an adapter that holds one of the Coldfire module boards.  Then you just need the logic between the coldfire and the Amiga connector, the rest already works and you just program it.  I thought about doing this.

As for the MMU/FPU stuff... anything that hits the MMU or FPU itself isn't going to work.  If programs use the math.library then a Coldfire math.library would do the trick.  There's also an MMU.library and stuff that uses it might also work with a new version of the lib.

Something to think about... this year Freescale *should* start sampling the V5 Coldfore core to select customers.   It should offer twice the performance of the current 4e core chips.  That *might* be worth preparing for.

Reality check for you people drooling over the coldfire ...
When I first started looking at a Coldfire Amiga, Motorola hadn't even introduced the MCF5307 but they did have the 4e core on their roadmap.  At the time it looked promising because PC's weren't nearly as fast as they are now.  Since then the roadmap has slipped by something like 4 years and in that time the gap has widened so much (I just built my parents a nice 2.4 GHz PC for Christmas for $230) that I don't see the point in it anymore.  I checked pricing on the new Coldfire CPUs in small quantities (less than 10000) and it's as much as I can buy an Athlon for.  And the Socket A motherboards start at about $25.  To print a small 2 or 4 layer board as an adaptor for a coldfire module board will cost at least 2 times that in small numbers and you still need the module!

AROS might make a great embedded OS for the Coldfire and it would be good for settop boxes or low end machines for third world countries.  But even a V5 core is predicted to run only 610 Dhrystone mips at 333 MHz.  A 2.4GHz CPU like my parents have offers 4644 Dhrystone mips!  Even when the coldfire CPU speed gets bumped to 800+MHz like one of their roadmaps displayed (that roadmap isn't on the Freescale site) it will probably only be around 1500 mips and that will be at least two years from now when multi-core AMD and Intel CPUs should be everywhere.  (Motorola did mention a multi-core Coldfire at one point but all discussion of it has since disappeared just like the 800+MHz)

AROS for UAE makes sense.  For a real world miggy it makes sense for working to improve AROS compatibility and providing a migration path.  For the Coldfire it makes sense for embedded/settop box use.   For a way to bring a late 80's/early 90's machine into the new millenium in combination with the Coldfire... it's going to fall way short.

*IF* Freescale were to introduce a V5 Core Coldfire at 800+ MHz with MORE THAN 2 CORES then you could think about it.  But with the Coldfire targeted at embedded systems I just don't see that anytime soon.  (I do expect to see a Coldfire CPU with 800+MHz and multiple cores... just not for a few years)
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: on January 05, 2005, 07:00:41 PM
Quote

whabang wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
What do you mean dreaming? It's prefectly feasable, and only really needs this bounty to be completed.


Well, there's this wee little detail of actually designing a Coldfire-board, making a Coldfire-version of AROS, make it trap the non-supported instructions (which would be limited to non-MMU, and possibly non-FPU applications),  and then write proper hardware drivers for the board, and any clones. But yes, it's doable.


It depends what kind of 68k compatibility you want.

Why bother trapping the missing 68k instructions etc, when native Coldfire AROS would work faster, and then we could use UAE for everything else.

Exactly the same way as Native x86 AROS.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 05, 2005, 07:09:13 PM
Quote

mdma wrote:

Why bother trapping the missing 68k instructions etc, when native Coldfire AROS would work faster, and then we could use UAE for everything else.

Exactly the same way as Native x86 AROS.


You still need the instruction traps if you are going to try to run Amiga apps on it since we can't recompile all of them to be Coldfire compatible.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: on January 05, 2005, 07:15:49 PM
Quote

jdiffend wrote:
Quote

mdma wrote:

Why bother trapping the missing 68k instructions etc, when native Coldfire AROS would work faster, and then we could use UAE for everything else.

Exactly the same way as Native x86 AROS.


You still need the instruction traps if you are going to try to run Amiga apps on it since we can't recompile all of them to be Coldfire compatible.


I should have been a bit clearer there i think.

I meant that there is no need for traps if AROS is compiled natively for the Coldfire CPU and UAE is used for 68k programs.

Once this AROS for UAE is completed, then work can start on the integration of this UAE into AROS to provide "transparent" emulation of system friendly 68k apps, as talked about on the dev-list and aros-exec.

Once all these things are achieved then we'll have a great little OS on our hands! :-)
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: MskoDestny on January 05, 2005, 08:15:29 PM
Quote

mdma wrote:
I meant that there is no need for traps if AROS is compiled natively for the Coldfire CPU and UAE is used for 68k programs.

Using UAE will be dog slow compared to traps, especially since I don't believe there is a 68K -> Coldfire dynarec for UAE at the moment so it will have to run through the interpretter.  UAE would still be useful for programs that are dependent on behaviors that you can't easily simulate on Coldfire using the trap approach.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: on January 05, 2005, 08:36:37 PM
Quote

MskoDestny wrote:
Quote

mdma wrote:
I meant that there is no need for traps if AROS is compiled natively for the Coldfire CPU and UAE is used for 68k programs.

Using UAE will be dog slow compared to traps, especially since I don't believe there is a 68K -> Coldfire dynarec for UAE at the moment so it will have to run through the interpretter.  UAE would still be useful for programs that are dependent on behaviors that you can't easily simulate on Coldfire using the trap approach.


Someone who had a commercial interest in Coldfire Motherboards could have a vested interest in writing a 68k to ColdFire dynarec though! ;-)
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 05, 2005, 08:40:29 PM
Quote

MskoDestny wrote:
Quote

mdma wrote:
I meant that there is no need for traps if AROS is compiled natively for the Coldfire CPU and UAE is used for 68k programs.

Using UAE will be dog slow compared to traps, especially since I don't believe there is a 68K -> Coldfire dynarec for UAE at the moment so it will have to run through the interpretter.  UAE would still be useful for programs that are dependent on behaviors that you can't easily simulate on Coldfire using the trap approach.


I think the confusion comes from expectations raised by UAE running on PCs.  It may be fast on modern PC's but it won't be on a Coldfire.  Any app that can run without UAE will be many times faster.

UAE should only be used as a last resort on apps that don't run with the traps on a Coldfire CPU.  If you want to know how fast UAE will run on a Coldfire, try running it on a PC from 1996 or 1997.  I'd guess a 266MHz to 333MHz Pentium II should be pretty close to the same speed as a 4e Coldfire.  

It will be easier to write a dynarec for the coldfire since many of the instructions would stay as is or would require only a couple to duplicate and the register model is the same on the 68K and 4e core.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 05, 2005, 10:50:00 PM
Thanks to some of the stuff on Aminet I should be able to support a boot device.  An AROS version of the driver will take time though.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: on January 05, 2005, 11:26:15 PM
Quote

jdiffend wrote:
Thanks to some of the stuff on Aminet I should be able to support a boot device.  An AROS version of the driver will take time though.


2005 could well turn out to be "The Year of AROS" :-D

20 years after Amiga was first shown to the public too.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 06, 2005, 02:06:57 AM
Quote

mdma wrote:

2005 could well turn out to be "The Year of AROS" :-D

20 years after Amiga was first shown to the public too.


Don't jump to conclusions.  I'm just starting to look through everything, I haven't even tried to compile a single line of code yet and I've already found a lot of potential problems.  The scope of this project seems to grow in leaps and bounds.

Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: on January 06, 2005, 02:10:57 AM
Quote

jdiffend wrote:
Quote

mdma wrote:

2005 could well turn out to be "The Year of AROS" :-D

20 years after Amiga was first shown to the public too.


Don't jump to conclusions.  I'm just starting to look through everything, I haven't even tried to compile a single line of code yet and I've already found a lot of potential problems.  The scope of this project seems to grow in leaps and bounds.



Well, I'm trying to be optimistic.  New years resolution you see.  Usually it's to stop smoking, but i never manage.  Hopefully i can stick to this one! :-D
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 06, 2005, 03:11:10 AM
The biggest problem I've found is that AROS was designed to be a hosted OS rather than a rommable OS.  At this point it makes more sense to make the Amiga AROS ROM more like the PC bios than the Amiga OS ROM.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: on January 06, 2005, 03:13:39 AM
Quote

jdiffend wrote:
The biggest problem I've found is that AROS was designed to be a hosted OS rather than a rommable OS.  At this point it makes more sense to make the Amiga AROS ROM more like the PC bios than the Amiga OS ROM.


Or maybe openfirmware-ish?

Is that possible/feasible/needed?
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: bloodline on January 06, 2005, 07:46:44 AM
Quote

jdiffend wrote:
The biggest problem I've found is that AROS was designed to be a hosted OS rather than a rommable OS.  At this point it makes more sense to make the Amiga AROS ROM more like the PC bios than the Amiga OS ROM.


That's not quite true, great care has been taken to make sure that the AROS code rommable, in fact this requirement has (and still is) causing quite a few headaches :-D

I suggest you look at the x86 Native flavour as that has the AROS kernel loaded into RAM which is then protected and treated as ROM.

-Edit- Porting Openfirmware to the Amiga would be a brilliant and very popular idea though!!!
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 06, 2005, 05:23:45 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:

That's not quite true, great care has been taken to make sure that the AROS code rommable, in fact this requirement has (and still is) causing quite a few headaches :-D

I suggest you look at the x86 Native flavour as that has the AROS kernel loaded into RAM which is then protected and treated as ROM.

-Edit- Porting Openfirmware to the Amiga would be a brilliant and very popular idea though!!!


Rommable yes... but what size ROM and on what hardware?  You've been working without space limitations and initial hardware testing/setup issues at the lowest level.  You also operate on the assumption you have some sort of output device.

I suggest you look at the liberal use of kprintf (for starters) for error reporting when no device may be available from printing.

The messages you have in kprintf statements may be easier to follow than guru numbers but they suck ROM space and you can't assume you have hardware to display them when bootstrapping hardware from scratch.

PC motherboards now have LEDS that display different patterns as the PC goes through the startup and it beeps patterns to diagnose problems.
On the AmigaOS, it flashes the LED and displays different screen colors and uses guru numbers if possible (they can be found in memory if they aren't displayable).

Notice on these that only errors are reported... if everythings fine the OS just goes about it's business and you don't really notice.

What about if I want to use AROS for an MP3 player?  An embedded OS can't make assumptions about the availability of a display (let alone the size of it) or even a serial port for messages.  The error messages don't have a corresponding code.subcode where code is lib or device and subcode is section that can be used to flash an LED or be placed at a reserved address and they can't be turned off in the compile so they take up space even if you can't use them.  They aren't even stored in a packed byte or compressed form to save space.
 
My suggestion would be to change the messages to codes or change kprintfs to have text AND code and use a macro or template for kprintf so that you could select which to include at compile time.  And the kprintf routine could be adjusted accordingly to the host it works on.

At the very least the number of messages requires some sort of way to compress them conserve space.  Possibly storing them 4 bits / character.

If you want to build an AmigaOS 3.1 like ROM you have to design it that way from the start.  The AROS team didn't set the same design restrictions Amiga did and it shows.  Amiga Inc. origianally only had 256K for their ROM and that included a lot of stuff!  But they didn't waste it either.

Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: on January 06, 2005, 07:20:17 PM
Quote
If you want to build an AmigaOS 3.1 like ROM you have to design it that way from the start. The AROS team didn't set the same design restrictions Amiga did and it shows. Amiga Inc. origianally only had 256K for their ROM and that included a lot of stuff! But they didn't waste it either.


Let's not beat about the bush then.

In your expert opinion, is it possible in a moderately short space of time (say 3 months?), to create a kickstart rom for UAE (modifying the UAE source if needed) that would boot AROS 68k from an ADF or HDF?

If the short answer is yes, then question number 2 would be:-

Are you willing to do it? :-D
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: Hattig on January 07, 2005, 12:33:43 AM
I think that this bounty should be able creating a replacement ROM image for Amiga emulators, so that they can be shipped legally without any requirement to 'source' Amiga Kickstart ROM images. That would give you 1MB to play about with, which might give the project some hope even considering the fact that it will be compiled C, and a pretty 16 colour logo with 'bounce' drop down effect (:p) will be an essential requirement! hah

Then Wanderer only needs to implement useful things, then later binary compatibility with classic 68k applications!

Still, regardless, good luck.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: bloodline on January 07, 2005, 10:56:11 AM
Quote

Hattig wrote:
I think that this bounty should be able creating a replacement ROM image for Amiga emulators, so that they can be shipped legally without any requirement to 'source' Amiga Kickstart ROM images. That would give you 1MB to play about with, which might give the project some hope even considering the fact that it will be compiled C, and a pretty 16 colour logo with 'bounce' drop down effect (:p) will be an essential requirement! hah


I fully agree, I think it should target UAE first... Real Amiga later :-)
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: dammy on January 07, 2005, 12:51:53 PM
It would be pretty funny if WB 4 and onwards were based on AROS and created by the Community instead of KMOS.

Dammy
TeamAROS
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: bloodline on January 07, 2005, 12:53:23 PM
Quote

dammy wrote:
It would be pretty funny if WB 4 and onwards were based on AROS and created by the Community instead of KMOS.

Dammy
TeamAROS


Did you say funny or inevitable ;-)
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: on January 07, 2005, 01:13:05 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

dammy wrote:
It would be pretty funny if WB 4 and onwards were based on AROS and created by the Community instead of KMOS.

Dammy
TeamAROS


Did you say funny or inevitable ;-)


AROS and MorphOS are inferior to OS4 apparently.

http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1994%3Ca%20class= (http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1994%3Ca%20class=)
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: bloodline on January 07, 2005, 01:23:31 PM
Quote

mdma wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

dammy wrote:
It would be pretty funny if WB 4 and onwards were based on AROS and created by the Community instead of KMOS.

Dammy
TeamAROS


Did you say funny or inevitable ;-)


AROS and MorphOS are inferior to OS4 apparently.

http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1994%3Ca%20class= (http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1994%3Ca%20class=)


Thats good know :roll:
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 07, 2005, 04:36:02 PM
Quote

mdma wrote:

Let's not beat about the bush then.

In your expert opinion, is it possible in a moderately short space of time (say 3 months?), to create a kickstart rom for UAE (modifying the UAE source if needed) that would boot AROS 68k from an ADF or HDF?

If the short answer is yes, then question number 2 would be:-

Are you willing to do it? :-D

IF the 68K compiler and linker doesn't cause issues in generating the ROM and AROS isn't filled with endian issues that is a reasonable timeline for someone with the time.

Am I willing to do it?  Tell you what, my time has a tendancy to come and go... a bit beyond by control.  So... what I'm going to do is work towards the goal.  I can't say I'll do everything but I will at least make sure any source I generate will be made available and I'll try to document anything I see that needs done.

Here is what I plan to do:
I'm going to work on the nasty low level bootstrap portion, the compiler/build issues for 68K, ROM file generation, display boot logo (I already have code somewhere that should make this easy and even a little cool), some hardware drivers and documentation.

All that is needed anyway and if I have time and things go smoothly I can just keep on working from there.

Once I make a little progress I'll make everything available to the AROS team.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 07, 2005, 04:46:05 PM
Quote

Hattig wrote:
I think that this bounty should be able creating a replacement ROM image for Amiga emulators, so that they can be shipped legally without any requirement to 'source' Amiga Kickstart ROM images.


I agree... and over time as it's made to run more AmigaOS apps they really can't say AROS has no software available.  It would be nice if a few old developers would release AROS versions but I won't hold my breath.

Quote
That would give you 1MB to play about with, which might give the project some hope even considering the fact that it will be compiled C, and a pretty 16 colour logo with 'bounce' drop down effect (:p) will be an essential requirement! hah

Uh, would a fade in/out suffice for now?  That's a lot easier and I should still have the code.

Quote

Then Wanderer only needs to implement useful things, then later binary compatibility with classic 68k applications!

Still, regardless, good luck.

Binary compatibility is something people really need to discuss NOW before there are a bunch of programs that aren't.  There needs to be a plan, a design... something before it happens.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: on January 07, 2005, 09:15:09 PM
Quote

jdiffend wrote:
Quote

mdma wrote:

Let's not beat about the bush then.

In your expert opinion, is it possible in a moderately short space of time (say 3 months?), to create a kickstart rom for UAE (modifying the UAE source if needed) that would boot AROS 68k from an ADF or HDF?

If the short answer is yes, then question number 2 would be:-

Are you willing to do it? :-D

IF the 68K compiler and linker doesn't cause issues in generating the ROM and AROS isn't filled with endian issues that is a reasonable timeline for someone with the time.

Am I willing to do it?  Tell you what, my time has a tendancy to come and go... a bit beyond by control.  So... what I'm going to do is work towards the goal.  I can't say I'll do everything but I will at least make sure any source I generate will be made available and I'll try to document anything I see that needs done.

Here is what I plan to do:
I'm going to work on the nasty low level bootstrap portion, the compiler/build issues for 68K, ROM file generation, display boot logo (I already have code somewhere that should make this easy and even a little cool), some hardware drivers and documentation.

All that is needed anyway and if I have time and things go smoothly I can just keep on working from there.

Once I make a little progress I'll make everything available to the AROS team.


Great news!

Thank you for donating your time and brains towards making this possible.  I wish you luck. :pint:
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: on January 07, 2005, 09:18:55 PM
Quote
Uh, would a fade in/out suffice for now? That's a lot easier and I should still have the code.


No, we want a scaled bitmap rotating effect, coupled with double sinus scrollers and a chiptune! ;-)
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 07, 2005, 09:36:37 PM
Quote

mdma wrote:
Quote
Uh, would a fade in/out suffice for now? That's a lot easier and I should still have the code.


No, we want a scaled bitmap rotating effect, coupled with double sinus scrollers and a chiptune! ;-)


I guess I could continually scroll the message "You could have had a bootable AROS ROM but NOOOOOoooo... you were too pickey.   Now you get nothing!" along the botton of the screen.   :-o

 :-D
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: on January 08, 2005, 12:06:53 AM
Quote

jdiffend wrote:
Quote

mdma wrote:
Quote
Uh, would a fade in/out suffice for now? That's a lot easier and I should still have the code.


No, we want a scaled bitmap rotating effect, coupled with double sinus scrollers and a chiptune! ;-)


I guess I could continually scroll the message "You could have had a bootable AROS ROM but NOOOOOoooo... you were too pickey.   Now you get nothing!" along the botton of the screen.   :-o

 :-D


:lol:

We could set up a bounty to get the intro done in 4k! :-P

With the Ocean Loader (http://ftp://de.aminet.net/pub/aminet/mods/sets/OceanLoaders.lha) music too! ;-)
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: jdiffend on January 08, 2005, 05:45:50 AM
Quote
mdma wrote:

:lol:

We could set up a bounty to get the intro done in 4k! :-P

With the Ocean Loader (http://ftp://de.aminet.net/pub/aminet/mods/sets/OceanLoaders.lha) music too! ;-)


I'm not even sure the AROS Logo posted will fit in 4K!  LOL
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: bloodline on January 08, 2005, 06:36:59 AM
Quote

jdiffend wrote:
Quote
mdma wrote:

:lol:

We could set up a bounty to get the intro done in 4k! :-P

With the Ocean Loader (http://ftp://de.aminet.net/pub/aminet/mods/sets/OceanLoaders.lha) music too! ;-)


I'm not even sure the AROS Logo posted will fit in 4K!  LOL


:roflmao:

Do keep me informed of your progress, I'm facinated by the low level stuff.

Anyway, sign up to the AROS-dev mailing list as you will get A++ help with any issues you might come across.

As for endien issues, all data structures sotred on disk are big endien and don't forget that there is already a version of AROS that compiles and runs for the Dragonball CPU (the 68k compatible CPU in the Palm device), so I'm pretty confident you will ahve no problems.

As for the ABI... again I don't forsee any problem with AmigaOS compatbility... but I've not looked into it... so fingers crossed.

Fading logo screen would be very very cool!!! :-D
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: CoolCat on January 08, 2005, 08:28:41 PM
Well, i didnt read all the thread yet, but i saw some talks about what hardware to support...imo, no bounty related, to port the aros rom for uae can also be done changing the uae code...so the hardware to be supported will be UAE (and you can change the UAE code)...ok, it will not work on actual UAE, but im sure the UAE team will accept the changes backingporting.

port for uae is not port for all 68k family...but its a start!

regards

Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: bloodline on January 08, 2005, 10:31:06 PM
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: on January 08, 2005, 11:18:30 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
For those using real Amigas, I have the AROS logo bootpic iff file to download Here (http://www.ahsodit.com/bootpic.iff).

I have squeezed it into 16 colours and optimized it to look correct at 640*256, looks great on my A500 :-) The file size is 24k, enjoy.


Did any real miggy owners look at my picture?


I'm a real person.
I have miggies.

Do I count? ;-)

It looks good.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: bloodline on January 08, 2005, 11:22:50 PM
Quote

mdma wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
For those using real Amigas, I have the AROS logo bootpic iff file to download Here (http://www.ahsodit.com/bootpic.iff).

I have squeezed it into 16 colours and optimized it to look correct at 640*256, looks great on my A500 :-) The file size is 24k, enjoy.


Did any real miggy owners look at my picture?


I'm a real person.
I have miggies.

Do I count? ;-)

It looks good.


I also made a 320*256 version in 32 colours.. it still looks good, but I just prefer the hi-res one :-)

-Edit- The Lowres one is only 16k :-)
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: CoolCat on January 10, 2005, 04:06:29 AM
if this help...
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ldp/aros/

regards
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: bloodline on April 19, 2005, 05:08:32 PM
Any news jdiffend? :-)
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: on April 19, 2005, 08:12:10 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Any news jdiffend? :-)


Hopefully in this case, no news is good news.
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: bloodline on April 20, 2005, 01:00:36 PM
Quote

mdma wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Any news jdiffend? :-)


Hopefully in this case, no news is good news.


Alas... I fear not... :-(
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: on April 20, 2005, 01:27:47 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

mdma wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Any news jdiffend? :-)


Hopefully in this case, no news is good news.


Alas... I fear not... :-(


Me too, but I don't like to tempt fate. :-(
Title: Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
Post by: bloodline on April 21, 2005, 12:36:35 PM
Quote

mdma wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

mdma wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Any news jdiffend? :-)


Hopefully in this case, no news is good news.


Alas... I fear not... :-(


Me too, but I don't like to tempt fate. :-(


There is no fate, but what we make ;-)