Amiga.org
Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Topic started by: amigakit on October 25, 2015, 08:34:22 PM
-
Call for Amiga Developers
Kickstarting PowerPC and 68k software development
Sacramento 17th October 2015
As part of our ongoing commitment to deliver quality software content for both PowerPC and 68K Amiga systems A-EON Technology Ltd (http://www.a-eon.com) is pleased announce a new initiative for Amiga software developers.
(http://a-eon.biz/images/icons/developer_thumb.jpg) (http://a-eon.biz/PDF/News_Release_Developer.pdf)
In the past year we launched the AMIStore app store (http://www.amistore.net) which has been enthusiastically supported by both Amiga developers and users.
AMIStore performance update:
44 software titles
Customer base ~700
Over 2200 paid transactions
……..and growing month on month
We have also purchased many Classic and Next-Generation AmigaOS titles as well as funding the development of several new applications and utilities. As part of this drive to improve the amount and quality of Amiga software we have created a dedicated SVN resource for all developers working on our applications. We have also implemented a Mantis bug tracker together with a developer mailing list and Wiki to aid software development. We now have 14 developers engaged in paid development work on 23 software projects. However, we are keen to expand and accelerate our software development effort to create new applications and utilities for the PowerPC and 68k platforms.
Call for Amiga Developers
We are looking for experienced Amiga developers to work on our existing applications and create new content for both the 68k and PowerPC platforms. If you are an existing or former Amiga developer and want to help create new software applications for the 68k or PowerPC platform please visit:
www.amigadeveloper.com (http://www.amigadeveloper.com)
(http://amistore.net/images/a-eon_logo_sm.PNG) (http://www.a-eon.com)
-
This is great!
Very forward thinking on the part of Aeon. I really want to commend them of strategically and intelligently putting positive movement into this wonderful computer both classically and moving forward!
Bravo.
-
Awesome!
-
Great, as long as there are no NDAs and similar stupid strings attached, that later can be used to prevent developers from participating in other projects.
Free Olsen and Thomas and now! :)
EDIT: And.. Sacramento? What on earth are they doing in California?
-
AmiWest (18yrs and counting) a great place for ALL amigans to meet and share!
That's what they were doing in Sacramento, CA!
-
The following text at http://www.amigadeveloper.com/ states.
We have established the infrastructure to make sure the right environment for Amiga development exists such as development forums, SVN server, developer mailing lists and Wiki.
Any chance of giving links to the development forums, web based SVN server and Wiki mentioned?
-
AmiWest (18yrs and counting) a great place for ALL amigans to meet and share!
That's what they were doing in Sacramento, CA!
Ah - of course! Been so many events lately, I forgot about this one :laughing:
-
The following text at http://www.amigadeveloper.com/ states.
Any chance of giving links to the development forums, web based SVN server and Wiki mentioned?
This wiki has been available for ages...
http://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/Main_Page
enjoy
-
This wiki has been available for ages...
http://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/Main_Page
enjoy
This wiki is about AmigaOS 4.x so a 3.x one is needed, maybe they should ask for the right to put the developer cd 2.1 online.
Kamelito
-
Great, as long as there are no NDAs and similar stupid strings attached, that later can be used to prevent developers from participating in other projects.
+1
-
Trevor in his speech says " 14 developers engaged under NDA..." Which is common in the software industry so I see no problem here.
Kamelito
-
This wiki has been available for ages...
http://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/Main_Page
It is not that I can't find the resources but rather that it should be easier for everyone at http://www.amigadeveloper.com/ to find the resources.
-
this effort is obviously primarly aimed at attracting developers for os4 applications to be distributed via amistore, if there is any intention to provide infrastructure for amiga development, let alone a closs platform, i suspect it is secondary.
-
this effort is obviously primarily aimed at attracting developers for os4 applications to be distributed via amistore, if there is any intention to provide infrastructure for amiga development, let alone a cross platform, i suspect it is secondary.
I sincerely believe A-Eon wants to encourage Amiga development albeit with a focus on AmigaOS 4 and PPC. They need to convert more 68k Amiga users and developers to expand their user and developer base. I doubt that the AmigaNG is competitive enough to attract many outside users and developers.
-
Everything that is being done, it is also replicated in OS3 wherever technically feasible.
So A-EON is looking for all developers, whether they want to code for OS3 or OS4. In fact at the moment, emphasis is on talented OS3 coders because less have stepped forward so far.
-
Trevor in his speech says " 14 developers engaged under NDA..." Which is common in the software industry so I see no problem here.
Kamelito
it depends on what is in the NDA. Most devs left have their own projects and are active on other platforms.
-
I sincerely believe A-Eon wants to encourage Amiga development albeit with a focus on AmigaOS 4 and PPC. They need to convert more 68k Amiga users and developers to expand their user and developer base. I doubt that the AmigaNG is competitive enough to attract many outside users and developers.
amiga api is very different to what people learn and use today. There are no outside devs with experience with it except perhaps some old ones but I doubt that they want to get involved again
-
Trevor is the best thing to happen to AmigaOS in a long time. AmigaOS can survive and even thrive as a niche only if it has new software.
-
amiga api is very different to what people learn and use today. There are no outside devs with experience with it except perhaps some old ones but I doubt that they want to get involved again
The Raspberry Pi was a new system with weak CPU performance (~300MHz Pentium II single core performance) and now has thousands of developers, good "official" compiler support and about 30 operating systems have been developed for it. Cheap hardware attracts users and users attract developers. Learning new APIs and hardware doesn't seem to be a problem when there is plentiful cheap and standard hardware.
-
The Raspberry Pi was a new system with weak CPU performance (~300MHz Pentium II single core performance) and now has thousands of developers, good "official" compiler support and about 30 operating systems have been developed for it. Cheap hardware attracts users and users attract developers. Learning new APIs and hardware doesn't seem to be a problem when there is plentiful cheap and standard hardware.
+1
-
+1
yep.
-
Does this include MorphOS application development as well if a developer wants to work on both platforms?
-
The Raspberry Pi was a new system with weak CPU performance (~300MHz Pentium II single core performance) and now has thousands of developers, good "official" compiler support and about 30 operating systems have been developed for it. Cheap hardware attracts users and users attract developers. Learning new APIs and hardware doesn't seem to be a problem when there is plentiful cheap and standard hardware.
You forgot a few important points:
* open hardware, free documentation
* no need for proprietary drivers
* no company that tries to dictate what you run on it
* no legacy demands
* tiny, low power consumption
And the rpi is just one of many and nothing new or special. What the RPi really brought was lower price. And a great expansion port. I used to have a few gumstix and various other boards, but they were all way more expensive. As for APIs, nothing was new with the RPi, Linux and BSD on ARM is old news.
-
The Raspberry Pi was a new system with weak CPU performance (~300MHz Pentium II single core performance) and now has thousands of developers, good "official" compiler support and about 30 operating systems have been developed for it. Cheap hardware attracts users and users attract developers. Learning new APIs and hardware doesn't seem to be a problem when there is plentiful cheap and standard hardware.
Yes cheap hardware sells and that creates a market but... anything custom PPC related will be much more expensive than Raspberry is. In my view porting AmigaOS to another ISA like ARM would have made more sense economically than building new PPC boards that have to be expensive because low sales have to cover high development expenses.
-
@Acill
Yes of course.
-
@Acill
Yes of course.
this press release is a little vague to attract anyone...
what projects are open, what conditions are offered, what contracts have to be signed? Most devs left have projects and are active on different platforms. Forcing them only to develop for AOS in future is certainly not interesting to them
-
You have to remember we attended many shows around the world and have met many developers prior to this face to face discussing many details.
For example, I met Acill personally at Amiwest and after talking with him would be happy to work with him on projects.
-
this press release is a little vague to attract anyone...
what projects are open, what conditions are offered, what contracts have to be signed? Most devs left have projects and are active on different platforms. Forcing them only to develop for AOS in future is certainly not interesting to them
Where is anyone being forced to only work on AOS?
-
Where is anyone being forced to only work on AOS?
Thomas Richter has told that... he is not allowed to do anything on Aros 68k because of signed contract
-
You have to remember we attended many shows around the world and have met many developers prior to this face to face discussing many details.
For example, I met Acill personally at Amiwest and after talking with him would be happy to work with him on projects.
the number of active developers in the community is pretty limited. Why not simply contacting them and offering them specific tasks?
-
Thomas Richter has told that... he is not allowed to do anything on Aros 68k because of signed contract
I think he stated in the forums here that he *prefers* not to work on AROS so as to avoid risk on contamination, maybe I misread that though, but that has nothing todo withe the current request for developers by A-Eon.
The only limits in the NDA I signed were on usage and sharing of company confidential info and their copyrighted software.
-
the content of the NDA should be public if not well how can a developer knows if he want to go further or not?
So it should be included in their site except if there is a NDA about the NDA...
Kamelito
-
Thomas Richter has told that... he is not allowed to do anything on Aros 68k because of signed contract
Is that contract with A-Eon or with Hyperion? Is he working on applications or on AmigaOS itself? There could be differences in his situation vs this thing from A-Eon now.
-
Is that contract with A-Eon or with Hyperion? Is he working on applications or on AmigaOS itself? There could be differences in his situation vs this thing from A-Eon now.
perhaps I have only some mistrust there... but I am not their goal group anyway
As I wrote... the active devs left are known. They could simply contact them directly, offer them vacant jobs and conditions (what to sign, payment and so on) and then someone will take a job or not
-
This wiki is about AmigaOS 4.x so a 3.x one is needed, maybe they should ask for the right to put the developer cd 2.1 online.
Kamelito
No, the developer documentation (http://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/DeveloperDoc:Main) covers everything there has ever been.
The text is based upon the 3rd edition RKM manuscripts which yours truly converted to LaTeX2e format more than ten years ago. The illustrations were coverted from the original files, and re-created where these were missing. Everything was reworked and revised by Steven Solie and numerous developers over the years.
It is basically a much nicer version of the RKM text which is found on the Amiga Developer CD 2.1, which was converted from the AmigaGuide version of the 1992 RKM text.
Some "bug fixes" are included in this developer documentation, too. Which reminds me that I never got around to fix the "audio.device" documention. The text consistently gets the stereo channel allocation bit definitions wrong.
-
As I wrote... the active devs left are known. They could simply contact them directly, offer them vacant jobs and conditions (what to sign, payment and so on) and then someone will take a job or not
What makes you think there are no developers who are presently inactive, yet might be enticed to get involved again given some modest incentives? It surely does not hurt to try.
That said, I would agree that the announcement does lack details. Personally, I find it to be too vague.
-
Wow, what an opportunity. I would love to create new Amiga Games like James Pond 4, Zool 3 and Superfrog 2. Would need to acquire the licenses so that it's not copyright. Would also be amazing to make Crystal Caves 4 in 2D or 3D. I could be a Game Designer employed by A-Eon. That would be my dream come true, made in existing/new Amiga Software for Amiga Computer's/Consoles (Well the CD32 if you know what I mean). I'm interested. :p
-
the content of the NDA should be public if not well how can a developer knows if he want to go further or not?
So it should be included in their site except if there is a NDA about the NDA...
Kamelito
Typically an interested party would contact the vendor, they would discuss specifics, and if there is still interest the vendor would forward a copy of the NDA for review.
-
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the nature of conversation and feedback on forums is (to some extent) to pick apart everything that is said by a company and find some fault or suspicion. This is after all a world full of opinions and all should be welcome.
Having said that...
I want to reiterate that what Aeon and Trevor and AmigaKit are doing for the Amiga is nothing short of a miracle and I for one (of many) are *very* grateful.
We (The Amiga folks who have been around since Commodore was active), all lived through the terrible roller coaster ride. The false promises. The hopes and waiting only to be disappointed time and time again. All of us had to move on (in some sense) to other modern platforms, or to put our time and energy into some of the other wonderful ideas (MorphOS and AROS to name 2). No one is bashing anyone for making something wonderful like those are.
But lets not bash on Aeon and Amigakit for really and honestly pushing Amiga into the future with OS 4. They are doing so in a strategic way that most would have thought impossible. But their honest passion and enthusiasm and (lets not forget) folks like Trevor fronting the capitol to take a shot at this to make it possible. Most of us have the struggle of deciding if we are going to support Amigakit with the latest card for our classic machine, or if we should fork out the money for a new OS4 machine but those financial risks pale in comparison to the financial risks Trevor, Aeon, and Amigakit have taken because they believe in the Amiga. Heck, they are even trying to continue support for OS3 through apps. Who else in the world would take the risks they have been taking for the Amiga? Who else in the world would put the time and energy into the Amiga with the honest intention of trying to make it a viable platform again? What these folks have undertaken may be later in the game then we could of hoped for, and there is *always* room for improvement. Anyone can criticize how they could have done this better or that better, and I'm not saying we shouldn't bring constructive criticism to the table (bring it), but let us please give proper respect where respect is due.
These guys have given a spark of hope and happiness I didn't think I would have again. I am honestly going to try and afford an Amiga one x5000 because their passion is contagious and I want to be part of it!
-
I want to reiterate that what Aeon and Trevor and AmigaKit are doing for the Amiga is nothing short of a miracle and I for one (of many) are *very* grateful.
+1. If I could even remotely justify purchase of something like an X5000, I would. ;) In the meantime I've supported just about every Amiga-related Kickstarter to come out in the past few years, and would love to purchase more hardware & software for my classic systems. Still have a bunch of stuff in my "cart" on AmigaKit, just waiting to pull the trigger on it all for when that Prisma Megamix audio card becomes available. Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? ;)
-
If A-eon wants to support 68k amiga, why dont they produce some new hardware (computers). ?
-
If A-eon wants to support 68k amiga, why dont they produce some new hardware (computers). ?
They are going to manufacture sound cards.
And maybe they don't want to undercut their OS4 market.
Further, if Jens has most of the supplies of OEM chips, CLPD or FPGA based parts would have to be substituted (not that that couldn't offer some room for improvement.
Finally, A-cube announced a new version of the MiniMig awhile ago, and while that has still not surfaced, does A-eon want to tread on Acube's market?
-
@Olsen
it means then that the intro is misleading "Introduction
The AmigaOS Documentation Wiki provides the latest information on how to program systems running AmigaOS 4.x."
Kamelito
-
Aeonkit has already sunk money into Prisma, x1/5000, plus aquired several software titles.
I would love to have a Clockport expander for my A1200 for example, so I can see that point.
But, Aeonkit cant take on too much. Start too many projects, and you run out of money, or just cant get stuff done.
I guess the call for developers is to rectify the workload issue.
-
No, the developer documentation (http://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/DeveloperDoc:Main) covers everything there has ever been.
The text is based upon the 3rd edition RKM manuscripts which yours truly converted to LaTeX2e format more than ten years ago. The illustrations were coverted from the original files, and re-created where these were missing. Everything was reworked and revised by Steven Solie and numerous developers over the years.
It is basically a much nicer version of the RKM text which is found on the Amiga Developer CD 2.1, which was converted from the AmigaGuide version of the 1992 RKM text.
Some "bug fixes" are included in this developer documentation, too. Which reminds me that I never got around to fix the "audio.device" documention. The text consistently gets the stereo channel allocation bit definitions wrong.
Any chance of a new set of RKM's being published? Even a print on demand edition from somewhere like lulu,com would be nice.
-
I've said it time and time again, we all need to work together and build up the platforms doing things like this. Its the best thing that has happened to Amiga in a long time. Getting all sides together in one place and still allowing each flavor to still have its own look and feel, but still having software benefits from the others in win win.
I'd be honored to do anything I can if its within my means, both for Amiga and MorphOS.
-
Any chance of a new set of RKM's being published? Even a print on demand edition from somewhere like lulu,com would be nice.
Already done! Just look at the wiki site...bottom left for printing options!
At the AmiWest2015 Devcon, one attendee brought his printed rkm to show and tell.
-
It is basically a much nicer version of the RKM text which is found on the Amiga Developer CD 2.1, which was converted from the AmigaGuide version of the 1992 RKM text...
The wiki also incorporates all the old Commodore DevCon material as well as all the Amiga Mail articles. There isn't much that hasn't been merged in.
-
So barring me digging into the wiki pages, what packages are available still for developing on OS3.x? I might just be willing to dip my toes into the water...
-
The wiki also incorporates all the old Commodore DevCon material as well as all the Amiga Mail articles. There isn't much that hasn't been merged in.
So Steve,
Is this an A-eon or Hyperion initiative?
-
Is this an A-eon or Hyperion initiative?
hyperion.
-- eliyahu
-
You have to remember we attended many shows around the world and have met many developers prior to this face to face discussing many details.
For example, I met Acill personally at Amiwest and after talking with him would be happy to work with him on projects.
Amiga shows do not count, that goes as preaching to the choir. Most amiga developers I ever met under one roof was at FOSDEM - Free Open Source Developers European Meeting - in Brussels (https://fosdem.org) none of them involved in Amiga these days.
-
I sincerely believe A-Eon wants to encourage Amiga development albeit with a focus on AmigaOS 4 and PPC. They need to convert more 68k Amiga users and developers to expand their user and developer base. I doubt that the AmigaNG is competitive enough to attract many outside users and developers.
It is not a matter of competition, it is a matter of being attractive.
Please... stop pretending that Amiga is a "market" and that Apple and Microsoft etc are "competition", it only makes you look delusional.
-
They are going to manufacture sound cards.
No, it is a decoder card, akin to MAS-player, not a sound card.
And maybe they don't want to undercut their OS4 market.
What market? Hardware to OS3.x does not in any way, shape or form, compete with OS4. The issue is more that a Minimig+ would require someone willing to develop the FPGA code for it, and I can not think of anyone who would want to do that exclusively for them. The best a Minimig+ could hope be today, would be a MIST clone. But we already got MIST.
Further, if Jens has most of the supplies of OEM chips, CLPD or FPGA based parts would have to be substituted (not that that couldn't offer some room for improvement.
?? OEM chip?? Jens has most of the supplies of the AGA chips, these are not at all needed to create new motherboards based on FPGA.
Finally, A-cube announced a new version of the MiniMig awhile ago, and while that has still not surfaced, does A-eon want to tread on Acube's market?
What? It was A-EON who announced the Minimig+ with A-cube as a partner. But neither of them have developers to actually develop Minimig FPGA core for such a board, all they can do is to develop a board for which there already exists some rudimentary support, and hope it attracts developers. That is how it works, and it does not fit "business plans" of these companies.
-
So yeah, they need more OS developers. But who is willing to work under a strict NDA for almost no money? Close to nobody.
Close to nobody, perhaps. But I, for one, have reached out and offered to help under precisely those conditions. The Amiga was once very special to me, and I think it would be cool to work on the OS now that I have 20 years of experience developing for mainstream commercial platforms. It wouldn't be about money or glory. Just fun! :)
-
Close to nobody, perhaps. But I, for one, have reached out and offered to help under precisely those conditions. The Amiga was once very special to me, and I think it would be cool to work on the OS now that I have 20 years of experience developing for mainstream commercial platforms. It wouldn't be about money or glory. Just fun! :)
Hats off to you sir!
After reading 5 negative opinions in a row from Kolla it is nice to see someone thinking of taking action and doing something positive.
There has been an insane amount of work done setting up the wiki with all the developer documentation. It would be nice to see some of that good work being leveraged. By whatever camp.
Cheers!
-
Not wanting to create even further confusion but....
The call for developers covers all Amiga flavours. The wiki referred to in the A-EON news release is the A-EON specific developer wiki not the excellent AmigaOS 4 wiki. The A-EON wiki is for developers working our specific 68k and PowerPC applications.
TrevorD
-
After reading 5 negative opinions in a row from Kolla it is nice to see someone thinking of taking action and doing something positive.
:hammer:
(http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/science/bender-applause_medium.gif)
-
I also like the idea, however, you are welcome to write an email to the presented address but you will never get an answer. I tried it two times now, the first try was 3 weeks ago. They could at least tell me that they don't want me to join.
-
Not wanting to create even further confusion but....
The call for developers covers all Amiga flavours. The wiki referred to in the A-EON news release is the A-EON specific developer wiki not the excellent AmigaOS 4 wiki. The A-EON wiki is for developers working our specific 68k and PowerPC applications.
TrevorD
When you write "The A-EON wiki is for developers working our specific 68k and PowerPC applications." does it means that developers who are working on their own apps published in in your store won't have access to the wiki?
Kamelito
-
Already done! Just look at the wiki site...bottom left for printing options!
At the AmiWest2015 Devcon, one attendee brought his printed rkm to show and tell.
Either i'm stupid (highly likely!) or this feature isn't as great as I first thought.
Each small section of the wiki has to be exported separately as a PDF or added section by section to the book creator wizard before exporting and printing.
Would be nice to just go to lulu.com, click buy and then receive several hefty manuals in the post. :)
-
@Olsen
it means then that the intro is misleading "Introduction
The AmigaOS Documentation Wiki provides the latest information on how to program systems running AmigaOS 4.x."
Kamelito
Yes, it is misleading. As such it promotes the product Hyperion is selling, so the fact that the whole technology stack (Amiga operating system versions going back to 1985) upon which AmigaOS 4 sits is covered is not the first priority.
There is definitely room for improvement. For example, I would expect the developer documentation to show up more prominently. It seems that only few visitors expected the full RKM text (3rd edition "RKM Hardware" excluded) to be behind the link on the front page.
-
Any chance of a new set of RKM's being published? Even a print on demand edition from somewhere like lulu,com would be nice.
I think that this ship sailed long ago :(
While I could dust off the LaTeX2e versions of the manuscript which I had worked on and crank out a PDF version of each, none of them are in their best possible shape (I would settle for "good enough", though). The illustrations are incomplete, for a start. The page breaks and the formatting are unpolished and look wonky. Readability should be better.
You do remember that the 3rd edition RKMs are each the size of a small or medium phone book? Nobody publishes software development documentation like that any more.
-
@Kolla
Whats wrong with preaching to the choir? There are still many 68xxx users around that still havent taken the leap to PPC. If anything, it would be easier to entice a still active Amiga user, than to pull in people that have already left the "scene".
I can tell you right now, if there was a decentish AOS4 hardware alternative in the 3-400 euro range I would jump on it immediately. And Im even aware of the OS's shortcomings ;)
For now tho, Im sticking to 68030, but I still cheer AeonKit on, and pick up classic hardware/software from time to time.
As for being "delusional" for thinking there is a Amiga market; that depends on your refrence point. Noone belives AOS or Amiga in general will become mainstream again.
But that doesnt prevent vendors/developers to create a hobbymarket that can sustain several entities. Amigakit is a fulltime vendor with employees, and it looks to me they are trying to secure a future to stay a fulltime Amiga company. Great for them (and us).
Additionally Ive used vendors like Amigastore.eu, Vesalia and Induvidual Computers.
I see the Amiga "market" healthy as long as its able to maintain a customer count that can sustain all these vendors (and others).
New/updated software in addition to hardware (NG and classic) coupled with more streamlined storefronts are one of the steps.
As for ciVic's comment about the email adress to get in contact with A-Eon;
I agree, it seems like they need to work on their email procedure.
Personally I work in a small company, with my boss doing xx things every day. I got a feeling reading emails often drops rather far down on the list of things to do.
Last time I checked he had over 400 unread emails(!!). Personally Id say a company needs to ensure, that when they leave the office, every single mail has been read, but yeah.
I would not be suprised AeonKit got the same issue. If its only Trevor and Matthew reading those mails, Its no wonder emails go unread.
The last few weeks they have been traveling to xx Amiga meetings.
I sent a email to that email adress myself several weeks ago regarding login to AmiStore. No reply for weeks. Eventually I got tired of waiting, so I contacted Matthew directly to his Amigakit user on Amiga.org. Got a quick reply then.
But Obviously not how it should be, even tho I understand it.
-
Not wanting to create even further confusion but....
The call for developers covers all Amiga flavours. The wiki referred to in the A-EON news release is the A-EON specific developer wiki not the excellent AmigaOS 4 wiki. The A-EON wiki is for developers working our specific 68k and PowerPC applications.
TrevorD
That's REALLY nice! But why dont create an AmiStore app for ALL amiga flavours or maybe a web site opened to all if not an app(maybe measy to do?)?
-
I think that this ship sailed long ago :(
While I could dust off the LaTeX2e versions of the manuscript which I had worked on and crank out a PDF version of each, none of them are in their best possible shape (I would settle for "good enough", though). The illustrations are incomplete, for a start. The page breaks and the formatting are unpolished and look wonky. Readability should be better.
You do remember that the 3rd edition RKMs are each the size of a small or medium phone book?
Yep. ;)
(https://i.imgur.com/e4gteZ5h.jpg)
Nobody publishes software development documentation like that any more.
Sadly.
-
You do remember that the 3rd edition RKMs are each the size of a small or medium phone book? Nobody publishes software development documentation like that any more.
It is entirely possible for us to publish paper versions again and collect them up into volumes like Eldee has done. It just isn't worth our time and effort and the profit margin would be zero because everybody can just print them from the wiki anyway. :)
Besides, as soon as you print that documentation it is obsolete. The wiki is being edited all the time to correct things and add new material.
-
Hats off to you sir!
Thanks!
I also like the idea, however, you are welcome to write an email to the presented address but you will never get an answer. I tried it two times now, the first try was 3 weeks ago.
Perhaps we don't know the secret handshake. :lol:
-
Whats wrong with preaching to the choir?
This is a so called "reach out to developers" - most developers do not go so much to Amiga shows, but they do go to developer meetings, they do go to conventions etc. If A-EON are serious about getting more developers, they should look outside the ever shrinking community.
There are still many 68xxx users around that still havent taken the leap to PPC. If anything, it would be easier to entice a still active Amiga user, than to pull in people that have already left the "scene".
You think 68k users are living under rocks and somehow have not heard about the the PowerPC thing? No, that is not the case. I have many PowerPC and many 68k systems (and a whole lot more), and what I use most is 68k, hands down, simply because I can easily run it _everywhere_. Second most used is AROS, for very much the same reason. Then comes MorphOS on mac minis, and very last comes OS4.
I can tell you right now, if there was a decentish AOS4 hardware alternative in the 3-400 euro range I would jump on it immediately. And Im even aware of the OS's shortcomings ;)
You could have had that years ago, if they could just "allow" OS4 to run on old Macs, and the OS could have advanced so much if they would open it up more.
For now tho, Im sticking to 68030, but I still cheer AeonKit on, and pick up classic hardware/software from time to time.
As do I, though the software has to be very cheap and essential for me to buy it. I only put "big money" into buying out source code and supporting development of open source software (for example I contributed I belive 150 euros for DOpus Magellan). Let us take PPaint as an example, it costs perhaps 20 euros, which is not much. But it is locked down, we can not make changes to it, we can not have a go porting it to AROS (or MorphOS for that matter). Instead we are at the mercy of BroadBlues, who like the rest of us, I am sure is also busy with "real life". I would pay a heck lot more than 20 euros for having the freedom to access the sources, do ports and submit patches etc - and most importantly, not be restricted by some nonsense NDA that mean I would have to look over my shoulders for the rest of my life.
As for being "delusional" for thinking there is a Amiga market; that depends on your refrence point. Noone belives AOS or Amiga in general will become mainstream again.
Matthey gives the impression sometimes that he actually believes that - he has previously stated that if only we have a m68k based cheap Strawberry Pi, tens if not hundreds of thousands of people would buy it to run AmigaOS. And he keeps referring to Apple, Microsoft, Linux etc as "the competition" - I don't know what to say about that other than "delusional" and over time it is very... tedious.
But that doesnt prevent vendors/developers to create a hobbymarket that can sustain several entities. Amigakit is a fulltime vendor with employees, and it looks to me they are trying to secure a future to stay a fulltime Amiga company. Great for them (and us).
Additionally Ive used vendors like Amigastore.eu, Vesalia and Induvidual Computers.
I see the Amiga "market" healthy as long as its able to maintain a customer count that can sustain all these vendors (and others).
New/updated software in addition to hardware (NG and classic) coupled with more streamlined storefronts are one of the steps.
By all means, I share this view and I buy from these stores too. And from private hardware developers, various projects (music and videos) and now latest, the A1200 kickstarter (4 cases iirc). You have no idea how much stuff I had accumulated up through the years until last year when I pretty much gave away most of it to a buddy who is more skilled with soldering irons etc than I am anyways :)
I just find it very wrong that OS and software development of hobby operating system takes place in secrecy. I find it straight out crazy that skilled individuals like Olsen find it too risky for AROS to let people like himself contribute. Imagine, AROS contaminated with some lines of code from OS3 or OS4 - oh the horror, clearly someone must be sued for the revenue lost (never mind that OS4 itself heavily relies on open source software itself.) I find it hilarious (and mind boggling) with these outbreaks we have every now and then with OS4 and MorphOS camps charging each other for stealing code or whatever. The hostility and constant "law mongering" is sickening and totally pointless. When someone "steals" my work, I wish them good luck, I don't scream about copyrights :laughing:
-
It is not a matter of competition, it is a matter of being attractive.
Please... stop pretending that Amiga is a "market" and that Apple and Microsoft etc are "competition", it only makes you look delusional.
The Amiga (A-EON and Hyperion) is a niche market competitor of Apple and Microsoft. They all produce computer hardware and develop operating systems. They can all gain or lose market share to the other competitors. Attractiveness changes supply and demand of products sold which affects market share. Delusional would be to ignore an unprofitable and unsustainable business model for the Amiga.
The call for developers covers all Amiga flavours. The wiki referred to in the A-EON news release is the A-EON specific developer wiki not the excellent AmigaOS 4 wiki. The A-EON wiki is for developers working our specific 68k and PowerPC applications.
The news release was fine as brief is better. The web page it refers to at http://www.amigadeveloper.com/ was rather useless after reading the news release. Maybe a web developer is one of the openings though ;).
-
Yes, it is misleading. As such it promotes the product Hyperion is selling, so the fact that the whole technology stack (Amiga operating system versions going back to 1985) upon which AmigaOS 4 sits is covered is not the first priority.
There is definitely room for improvement. For example, I would expect the developer documentation to show up more prominently. It seems that only few visitors expected the full RKM text (3rd edition "RKM Hardware" excluded) to be behind the link on the front page.
Not only that but the examples are updated to 4.x while the former examples are not available anymore...
Kamelito
-
@thread
there was plenty of good discussion here on 68k future HW development and the like, but it wasn't on-topic. so i've created a new thread for all of that here (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=69986). please keep discussion in this thread limited to the thread topic, namely A-EON's offer to assist commercial developers of amiga software. thanks.
-- eliyahu
-
Not only that but the examples are updated to 4.x while the former examples are not available anymore...
Kamelito
It's a wiki so whilst the articles may be updated to show 'modern practice' the older versions are still there in th history.
-
Let us take PPaint as an example, it costs perhaps 20 euros, which is not much. But it is locked down, we can not make changes to it, we can not have a go porting it to AROS (or MorphOS for that matter). Instead we are at the mercy of BroadBlues, who like the rest of us, I am sure is also busy with "real life".
A-Eon has the src not me. If you want to code on it apply for a job. The NDA just protects their copyright. It is after all not open src but commercialo software.
I'm busy coding on other A-Eon projects as well as "real life" but I'm sure more work on ppiant will follow.
-
It's a wiki so whilst the articles may be updated to show 'modern practice' the older versions are still there in th history.
Not practical at all in my opinion, and how do you know which historic version equal latest finished Classic version vs broken or incomplete one?
It'll be a lot easier if you could choose Classic or NG and then browse from here.
Kamelito
-
Would kind of applications are you looking for to appear in the store?
Does anyone have a app wanted list?
Some apps need a large team of people to work on, smaller ones can be done bya single developer. So a list has to be realistic and not expect to much from it.
-
A-Eon has the src not me. If you want to code on it apply for a job. The NDA just protects their copyright. It is after all not open src but commercial software.
I am not interested in a new job as I already got one, I am not interested in the money as I already got a job, I am not interested in contracts, I am not interested in deadlines. I am only interested in having the piece of software available on my choices of Amiga flavor - no strings attached. For that I am willing to pay much more for than 20 euros.
I'm busy coding on other A-Eon projects as well as "real life" but I'm sure more work on ppiant will follow.
Exactly, as a developer for A-EON you are busy with many projects, you and that other guy, whatshisname, hehe ;)
-
Not practical at all in my opinion, and how do you know which historic version equal latest finished Classic version vs broken or incomplete one?
It'll be a lot easier if you could choose Classic or NG and then browse from here.
Kamelito
I didn't say it was practical, just that it wasn't lost and is still accessable, allbeit awkardly.
I agree that it's not ideal if you are looking for Classic info.
-
@Nicholas
Nice bookshelf.
The only thing that seems missing is the old K&R C book, but perhaps I am showing my age. :)
-
@Nicholas
Nice bookshelf.
The only thing that seems missing is the old K&R C book, but perhaps I am showing my age. :)
Thanks Lyle. Don't worry, it's a few shelves below with all the other religious texts. :)
-
I've messaged A-Eon on there website saying that I'm interested. Do you know when I'll get an answer and how long it takes for them to respond? Thanks.
-
Not only that but the examples are updated to 4.x while the former examples are not available anymore...
Kamelito
Yikes, so much for archival purposes. The RKM companion archive, which contains all the source code, should still be on Aminet. I get a feeling that the Amiga Developer CD 2.1 contents ought to be made available legally again.
-
I've messaged A-Eon on there website saying that I'm interested. Do you know when I'll get an answer and how long it takes for them to respond? Thanks.
just wait two more weeks :)
-
I didn't say it was practical, just that it wasn't lost and is still accessable, allbeit awkardly.
I agree that it's not ideal if you are looking for Classic info.
A-EON is calling for Amiga developers and classics more than NG so I guess they should have the same experience while looking for information not less not more.
I know that the wiki come for Hyperion and not A-EON.
Kamelito
-
Not only that but the examples are updated to 4.x while the former examples are not available anymore...
From the front page, "This is the AmigaOS Documentation Wiki. Here we collect all information for users and developers of AmigaOS version 4.0 and beyond."
If you want material prior to version 4 of AmigaOS then you will likely need to talk to Cloanto. Cloanto has been buying up all the rights to previous versions of AmigaOS and Michael is very interested in preservation. Michael has been pushing the preservation idea at every single Amiga 30th event this year so I'm surprised you guys missed that.
Back on topic, I think some people's dogmatic idealism is getting in the way of getting things done. A-EON is doing a fantastic job of getting new software products to market by paying developers so don't complain when they want to protect their copyright at the same time. If you don't like it, stop the endless talking and start a bounty to buy the rights from A-EON and make it "free" or get out of the way because they aren't slowing down for a few hippies. :)
-
...because they aren't slowing down for a few hippies. :)
Or grumpy old men, in the case of this forum. :lol:
-
...get out of the way because they aren't slowing down for a few hippies. :)
OK Steve, that was a good one.
At least in this regard I am on your side.
Pay Cloanto for "preserved" software or buy new.
-
From the front page, "This is the AmigaOS Documentation Wiki. Here we collect all information for users and developers of AmigaOS version 4.0 and beyond."
If you want material prior to version 4 of AmigaOS then you will likely need to talk to Cloanto. Cloanto has been buying up all the rights to previous versions of AmigaOS and Michael is very interested in preservation. Michael has been pushing the preservation idea at every single Amiga 30th event this year so I'm surprised you guys missed that.
Back on topic, I think some people's dogmatic idealism is getting in the way of getting things done. A-EON is doing a fantastic job of getting new software products to market by paying developers so don't complain when they want to protect their copyright at the same time. If you don't like it, stop the endless talking and start a bounty to buy the rights from A-EON and make it "free" or get out of the way because they aren't slowing down for a few hippies. :)
they do not need to slow down for anyone, if they make a offer that is interesting then people will buy it, if not they will loose money with it
-
Or grumpy old men, in the case of this forum. :lol:
you look in the mirror? :lol:
-
From the front page, "This is the AmigaOS Documentation Wiki. Here we collect all information for users and developers of AmigaOS version 4.0 and beyond."
If you want material prior to version 4 of AmigaOS then you will likely need to talk to Cloanto. Cloanto has been buying up all the rights to previous versions of AmigaOS and Michael is very interested in preservation. Michael has been pushing the preservation idea at every single Amiga 30th event this year so I'm surprised you guys missed that.
That is exactly what I wrote then Olsen and Broadblues says otherwise and then clarified.
I'm not complaining, I just think that Classics programmers need proper docs too as for Cloanto for now I just saw them as money makers around Emulation. Preserving stuff is one thing sharing them another.
IIRC the 3rd edition do not cover 3.x stuff a Classic wiki could be updated this way.
Kamelito
-
That is exactly what I wrote then Olsen and Broadblues says otherwise and then clarified.
I'm not complaining, I just think that Classics programmers need proper docs too as for Cloanto for now I just saw them as money makers around Emulation. Preserving stuff is one thing sharing them another.
IIRC the 3rd edition do not cover 3.x stuff a Classic wiki could be updated this way.
Kamelito
Does A-EON want to encourage Amiga development or not? Does A-EON want to make Amiga development easier? If so, then IMO:
1) Development documentation should be freely distributable (retaining copyrights is expected).
2) AmigaOS 68k should be further developed and the API brought closer to AmigaOS 4 to make Amiga development easier. The 68k is a bigger market and growing with new FPGA hardware. I wouldn't be surprised if Amiga capable FPGA hardware is outselling Amiga PPC hardware yet this larger potential market is practically ignored even as PPC is dying.
-
This is good to hear. Good luck.
-
you look in the mirror? :lol:
Every day. And by some miracle it hasn't broken yet! :laughing:
-
Does A-EON want to encourage Amiga development or not? Does A-EON want to make Amiga development easier? If so, then IMO:
1) Development documentation should be freely distributable (retaining copyrights is expected).
2) AmigaOS 68k should be further developed and the API brought closer to AmigaOS 4 to make Amiga development easier. The 68k is a bigger market and growing with new FPGA hardware. I wouldn't be surprised if Amiga capable FPGA hardware is outselling Amiga PPC hardware yet this larger potential market is practically ignored even as PPC is dying.
While I do agree with you regarding futher development of AOS3.x, I wonder how they should find the resources to do so. Espesially since they have problems keeping up desired development pace of AOS4. Many will probarly just think; we got BetterWB and other upgrade packages for WB3.x, so why bother.
But for getting max impact for software releases, it makes sense having better cohesion between classic and NG OS versions.
Just curious about how you forsee it being done..?
-
Back on topic, I think some people's dogmatic idealism is getting in the way of getting things done.
Very true, this dogmatic belief that software development is done best when it is done by paying single individuals is indeed getting in the way of getting things done.
A-EON is doing a fantastic job of getting new software products to market by paying developers so don't complain when they want to protect their copyright at the same time.
Protect their copyright from what, exactly? What is the point of this protection, what are these copyright owners afraid of? You are aware that even when something is open source, it is typically still under copyright? A-EON could easily be the hub for development of Amiga software, share the code with the community of volunteering developers, and still own the IP, you know - and better yet, not having to pay anyone to do the job of improving the software.
If you don't like it, stop the endless talking and start a bounty to buy the rights from A-EON and make it "free" or get out of the way because they aren't slowing down for a few hippies. :)
But they are slowing down because of a few hippies, that is _exactly_ what they are doing.
-
I wouldn't be surprised if Amiga capable FPGA hardware is outselling Amiga PPC hardware yet this larger potential market is practically ignored even as PPC is dying.
Amiga capable FPGA hardware has outsold Amiga PPC hardware a long time ago, as Minimig soft cores exist for many FPGA boards that are sold commercially for other uses. And it only grows, more, fast and better. In the mean time, a few hippies are hacking on OS4 in their spare time.
-
A-EON is doing a fantastic job of getting new software products to market by paying developers
+1
I can't wait to see what they do with Imagefx. I would love to be part of that team in some capacity.
-
While I do agree with you regarding further development of AOS3.x, I wonder how they should find the resources to do so. Especially since they have problems keeping up desired development pace of AOS4. Many will probably just think; we got BetterWB and other upgrade packages for WB3.x, so why bother.
But for getting max impact for software releases, it makes sense having better cohesion between classic and NG OS versions.
Just curious about how you forsee it being done..?
There are 2 challenges for a 68k AmigaOS 4.x to be successful.
1) The cost needs to be lower than for the PPC AmigaOS.
2) The efficiency needs to be better than for the PPC AmigaOS.
Much of AmigaOS 4 PPC has already been developed which should lower the cost of developing AmigaOS 4 for the 68k. The AmigaOS 4 68k cost needs to be affordable and in line with lower cost 68k hardware for the masses instead of the classes. Efficiency is nearly as important as new features to 68k value. Compiler 68k support is generally old but poor compiler support didn't stop the AmigaOS from having good efficiency up to AmigaOS 3.1. I believe the efficiency could be brought back but the early versions of AmigaOS 4 68k would likely be slower. Perhaps the first step toward AmigaOS 4 68k development would be to allow developers to work on and release AmigaOS 3.x bug fixes and minor enhancements which improve compatibility with the AmigaOS 4 API for free. If the developers were successful at improving the 68k AmigaOS, then Amiga users would be happy to pay a reasonable cost to encourage comprehensive 68k updates. This would require allowing the 68k developers full access to the AmigaOS 4 sources. It would not be open source but hopefully it could be open enough to attract developers. I have worked on vbcc enhancements for free but the source is open (even though copyrights are maintained). It may be worthwhile to pay someone highly experienced like Olsen or ThoR to manage the project while doing some work themselves. Quality development on a budget is not easy. AROS is more attractive to open source developers which A-EON would have to compete with in making AmigaOS 4 68k development attractive. The way it is now, it feels like AmigaOS 68k development is being blocked.
-
+1
I can't wait to see what they do with Imagefx. I would love to be part of that team in some capacity.
Let them know, and they will appoint you as head programmer, I am sure. :laughing:
-
@thread
guys, this is not a thread about PPC vs 68k or for discussing your fantasy OS developments. this is my last warning about off-topic posts like this. we already have another thread (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=69986) where you can discuss that to your hearts' content.
-- eliyahu
-
@eliyahu
Usually I applaud your direction regarding moderation, but in this case your are a bit off the mark.
The original post stated;
"Call for Amiga Developers Kickstarting PowerPC and 68k software development".
While I assume the premise is mostly non-OS development related, having AOS 3 and 4 as similar as possible would increase the revenue pool for vendors like Aeonkit (and others).
To be honest, since the original post was a "call for developers" to basically email Aeonkit showing intrest, any post at all is off topic since all the OP is looking for is out of thread contact. So should sticky it and lock if you want to be 100% ontopic.
-
To be honest, since the original post was a "call for developers" to basically email Aeonkit showing intrest, any post at all is off topic since all the OP is looking for is out of thread contact. So should sticky it and lock if you want to be 100% ontopic.
don't tempt me. :lol:
but, ok, fair enough. i take your point. :)
-- eliyahu
-
Let them know, and they will appoint you as head programmer, I am sure. :laughing:
I know you said this in-jest, but if dschallock (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=8555) was head programmer I'd buy the software for sure. :)
-
I know you said this in-jest, but if dschallock (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=8555) was head programmer I'd buy the software for sure. :)
They just have to make him an offer he cannot refuse :rofl:
-
Further development of AmigaOS 3.X?
AmigaOS 4.1 68K?
Hmm, the first can't be done (unless you ask Cloanto), and the second is unlikely as it would undercut Hyperion's PPC product.
-
Further development of AmigaOS 3.X?
AmigaOS 4.1 68K?
Hmm, the first can't be done (unless you ask Cloanto), and the second is unlikely as it would undercut Hyperion's PPC product.
Hyperion could do it if they wanted, though I really doubt they do.
It wouldn't solve anything though, as you would still get loads on non upgraders and grumbled at for not back porting your software, even though makes use of the new and cool things that come along in a growing (even if slower than we;d like) OS.
-
Hyperion could do it if they wanted, though I really doubt they do.
We know Hyperion's position was to only develop AmigaOS for PPC until the end but that end came and they were bailed out by A-EON. Hyperion may only be a software house for A-EON now. If A-EON is not smart and bets only on a dying one trick pony then someone else will end up with the technology.
It wouldn't solve anything though, as you would still get loads on non upgraders and grumbled at for not back porting your software, even though makes use of the new and cool things that come along in a growing (even if slower than we;d like) OS.
AmigaOS 4 has become bloated and slow even for PPC (MorphOS is significantly faster in most benchmarks). This is a challenge for a 68k AmigaOS where users care more about efficiency. Change is needed but there is a resistance to change so the AmigaOS will likely die on PPC in the hands of a small group called Hyperion doing the same things that forced them into bankruptcy before they were rescued. All aboard for developers outside this time warp bubble to somehow rescue them though.
-
@ matthey
But its REAL Amiga OS (OS4), they don't have time for, uh real...Amiga...OS.
Huh?
And A-eon doesn't depend completely on Hyperion, except for their entire primary OS.
They could depend on MorphOS (at least until that fragments into support for two ISAs with the emphasis on the newer one).
But, then there is the challenge faced when deciding whether or not to support that new stink bomb they dropped with Tabor.
Legacy guys don't really care about all this (especially those that think WarpOS is going to come racing back to their rescue).
But its an interesting point.
A lot lies on Hyperion's continued existence.
I don't want to see them going anywhere.
-
Not wanting to create even further confusion but....
The call for developers covers all Amiga flavours. The wiki referred to in the A-EON news release is the A-EON specific developer wiki not the excellent AmigaOS 4 wiki. The A-EON wiki is for developers working our specific 68k and PowerPC applications.
TrevorD
Knowing a little more now what's going on behind the scenes, I'm looking forward to the fruits of this endevor. I hope this will - eventually - end the camp wars. But maybe it's as futile as the idea that Esperanto would lead to world peace :D
-
@ matthey
But its REAL Amiga OS (OS4), they don't have time for, uh real...Amiga...OS.
Huh?
And A-eon doesn't depend completely on Hyperion, except for their entire primary OS.
They could depend on MorphOS (at least until that fragments into support for two ISAs with the emphasis on the newer one).
But, then there is the challenge faced when deciding whether or not to support that new stink bomb they dropped with Tabor.
Legacy guys don't really care about all this (especially those that think WarpOS is going to come racing back to their rescue).
But its an interesting point.
A lot lies on Hyperion's continued existence.
I don't want to see them going anywhere.
I know that you prefer NG but I have a good reason for "classic": users and thus potential customers
I recently joined the closed facebook group "CommodoreAmiga"
pure "classic" and almost 11.000 users
and that despite by far not everyone uses facebook for different reasons
-
After reading this whole thread.
AmigaOS 4 for 68k is pointless because 68k is too slow.
Fastest avaible real 68k cpu has 486 level performance.
AROS 68k developers try to do it, they failded AROS 68k is too slow on real 68k.
Yes, many years ago gunnar von boehn promise that his wonderfull natami/apollo outrun powerpc processors but after many years of lies and false promises, fastest avaible 68k 68060 is still slower than first pentium, and hundred times slower than powerpc processors.
68k users have to accept that making software for real 68k has no sense because because 68k is too slow.
-
After reading this whole thread.
AmigaOS 4 for 68k is pointless because 68k is too slow.
Fastest avaible real 68k cpu has 486 level performance.
AROS 68k developers try to do it, they failded AROS 68k is too slow on real 68k.
Yes, many years ago gunnar von boehn promise that his wonderfull natami/apollo outrun powerpc processors but after many years of lies and false promises, fastest avaible 68k 68060 is still slower than first pentium, and hundred times slower than powerpc processors.
68k users have to accept that making software for real 68k has no sense because because 68k is too slow.
you seem to pollute every forum...
PPC is as retro as 68k in todays world just that 68k has more geek factor. You see that when you look where companies invest in new processor generations. But this is not the topic of the thread.
-
you seem to pollute every forum...
PPC is as retro as 68k in todays world just that 68k has more geek factor. You see that when you look where companies invest in new processor generations. But this is not the topic of the thread.
Olaf, that is not even close to true.
To stick with 68K, yeah you have to be a geek.
But when your 68K has multi-core, can run at over 2 GHz, can run 64 bit code, or address the amount of memory modern processor can, let me know.
68Ks are eol'd, Coldfire is soon to follow, but there are still a few PPC products yet to be introduced, and we haven't even modernized AmigaOS and its related OS' to take advantage of things we have, let alone what we could have with the e6500 cored products.
Sure, port Amiga OS4.1 to the 68K, where it will be too slow to run properly.
And once OS4.2 is released, it will be obsolete.
AND X64 IS the eventual goal, but not right now.
I'm really going to enjoy the next major step in MorphOS' evolution.
That should be able to handle 68K, PPC, and X64 code.
-
PPC is as retro as 68k in todays world
It is simple. you have not any ppc computer.
And you know nothing about it speed.
-
To stick with 68K, yeah you have to be a geek.
Real 68k is ancient crap slower than first pentium.
My g4 is still faster than the slowest new PC laptops.
-
To stick with 68K, yeah you have to be a geek.
Welcome to Amiga land :)
68k users have to accept that making software for real 68k has no sense because because 68k is too slow.
Utter bull, 68k is awesome and worth writing software for.
-
...Utter bull, 68k is awesome and worth writing software for.
This, again oddly, I agree with.
Coding for the 68K family is still a lot of fun for me.
AND its the last processor I bothered to learn to write assembly code on.
It is really quite elegant.
One of the best things Motorola ever created.
Remember, PPCs weren't invented by Motorola/Freescale.
Real 68k is ancient crap slower than first pentium.
My g4 is still faster than the slowest new PC laptops.
You DO realize the Pentium was introduced after the 68K series, don't you?
A fairer comparison would be, say, a '486.
And until Intel introduced the '386 they were SO far behind that they couldn't even run some code that was possible on 68K.
Why do you think Windows 3.0 (and yeah, I said 3.0, 3.1 was a bug fix) almost requires a '386 or higher?
-
Welcome to Amiga land :)
Utter bull, 68k is awesome and worth writing software for.
Utter bull, 68k is underpowered not worth of use crap
-
But when your 68K has multi-core, can run at over 2 GHz, can run 64 bit code, or address the amount of memory modern processor can, let me know.
The AmigaOS used to be efficient enough and scalable enough to run on a 68000@7.14MHz with 256kB of memory. Now we need a 2 GHz clock speed and more than 4 GB of memory?
Sure, port Amiga OS4.1 to the 68K, where it will be too slow to run properly.
And once OS4.2 is released, it will be obsolete.
Different build scripts and conditional preprocessor directives would be necessary in some cases but most of the high level OS components should compile as is. I would hope AmigaOS 4 doesn't use a bunch of GCCisms as other compilers may generate better quality code for the 68k.
AND X64 IS the eventual goal, but not right now.
I hope not but it would be good to make the AmigaOS more portable in case of a processor switch. IMO, moving to x86_64 would divide what is left of the Amiga even more, a 64 bit little endian AmigaOS with SMP support would not be compatible with anything and the Amiga would lose most of what is left of its uniqueness.
Real 68k is ancient crap slower than first pentium.
My g4 is still faster than the slowest new PC laptops.
The 68060 is on par with a Pentium and the G4 is on par with a Pentium III. The only new laptops/netbooks as weak as a G4 are Atom or ARM based. Any feel of a G4 being faster than modern PC laptops is probably due to a more efficient OS. If you want to further talk hardware, please use the thread Eliyahu created for that purpose.
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=69986&page=4
-
@ppcamiga1
ok. thanks for giving us such an excellent demonstration of trolling. nicely done. see you in a few days.
-- eliyahu
-
@ppcamiga1
ok. thanks for giving us such an excellent demonstration of trolling. nicely done. see you in a few days.
(http://lilliemcferrin.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/internet_high_five-s580x537-140830.png)
-
Coding for the 68K family is still a lot of fun for me.
AND its the last processor I bothered to learn to write assembly code on.
It is really quite elegant.
One of the best things Motorola ever created.
+1
-
@thread
Just a matter of general curiosity, once again based on my trying to apply what I believe to be "logic" to the situation...
Considering:
(1)Amistore is the principal source of income for s/w
Why is there not a push to install Amistore as part of default install for the OS?
#6
-
@thread
Just a matter of general curiosity, once again based on my trying to apply what I believe to be "logic" to the situation...
Considering:
(1)Amistore is the principal source of income for s/w
Why is there not a push to install Amistore as part of default install for the OS?
#6
Is there any plans to bring Amistore to classic 68k? A-eon holds several classic licenses that I would think people would still buy right away if available.
-
@number6
indeed. i asked this to ssolie at amiwest myself. i hope A-EON and hyperion can work something out. we already have a terrific update system integrated into the default install. it'd be wonderful to also be able to go to the 'Workbench' menu and select 'Store...' as well. at least IMO.
@dschallock
if i recall correctly matthew has been working on an AOS3 build of amistore for some time. where exactly it is in terms of status, i have no idea.
-- eliyahu
-
@number6
indeed. i asked this to ssolie at amiwest myself. i hope A-EON and hyperion can work something out. we already have a terrific update system integrated into the default install. it'd be wonderful to also be able to go to the 'Workbench' menu and select 'Store...' as well. at least IMO.
@dschallock
if i recall correctly matthew has been working on an AOS3 build of amistore for some time. where exactly it is in terms of status, i have no idea.
-- eliyahu
Of all Classics users how many do have Internet on their system? It is good for UAE but for classics some sort of gateway should be found or they should bundle it with an Ethernet board.
Kamelito
-
Of all Classics users how many do have Internet on their system? It is good for UAE but for classics some sort of gateway should be found or they should bundle it with an Ethernet board.
Kamelito
Just got the Xsurf100 from amigakit bundled with easynet pro. Works flawlessly.
-
@thread
Just a matter of general curiosity, once again based on my trying to apply what I believe to be "logic" to the situation...
Considering:
(1)Amistore is the principal source of income for s/w
Why is there not a push to install Amistore as part of default install for the OS?
#6
A-Eon don't own the OS.
If I owned the OS would only consider providing it as part of the default install if A-Eon paid me a huge up front sum, which would reccur yearly and also a minimum of a 60/40 split of any profits from sales. The 60% being my cut.
Wouldn't you?
-
A-Eon don't own the OS.
If I owned the OS would only consider providing it as part of the default install if A-Eon paid me a huge up front sum, which would reccur yearly and also a minimum of a 60/40 split of any profits from sales. The 60% being my cut.
Wouldn't you?
Why should A-eon pay a huge sum?
A-eon develops and sells the hardware and pays for the OS licenses. Normally they can simply preinstall the OS and the store with the hardware. The same for Acube. You think of Apple but Apple both develops and sells hardware and the OS.
-
@thread
Considering:
(1)Amistore is the principal source of income for s/w
Why is there not a push to install Amistore as part of default install for the OS?
#6
Maybe it's because Amistore is not considered to be ready for a release yet?
We are pleased to confirm that the first Release Candidate 1 is now available for public download here. Important Note: this software is still beta status and may contain some bugs.
http://www.amistore.net/
-
Why should A-eon pay a huge sum?
A-eon develops and sells the hardware and pays for the OS licenses. Normally they can simply preinstall the OS and the store with the hardware. The same for Acube. You think of Apple but Apple both develops and sells hardware and the OS.
A-Eon pre-installing it on any hardware they sell is a custom install. A default install is what you get after installing the OS from Hyperion's installation media.
-
A-Eon don't own the OS.
If I owned the OS would only consider providing it as part of the default install if A-Eon paid me a huge up front sum, which would reccur yearly and also a minimum of a 60/40 split of any profits from sales. The 60% being my cut.
Wouldn't you?
No, I would not!
Hyperion/OS4 And A-EON/Acube live in symbiosis with each other. If software (OS4) is sold hardware is sold (Exception: OS4 Classic and Pegasos 2). If Hardware is sold software (OS4) is sold.
You could say Win-Win situation. But I don't think there is any profit. So it's more like trying to keep the loss to a minimum.
And of-course they need us to buy there stuff ;-)
Edit: Acube might have the embedded market to fall back on? I don't know.
Edit2: Forgot Pegasos 2
-
A-Eon don't own the OS.
If I owned the OS would only consider providing it as part of the default install if A-Eon paid me a huge up front sum, which would reccur yearly and also a minimum of a 60/40 split of any profits from sales. The 60% being my cut.
Wouldn't you?
While I completely understand your point, I think the argument also exists about applications being a big part of the user experience that they associate with the OS. Would not releasing an operating system while also pointing out that apps exist for said operating system be good PR for Hyperion?
I've heard the term symbiotic before in relation to this, but perhaps that's not how Hyperion sees it. Perhaps you're correct and they see it as infringement, and something for which they should be compensated. *shrug*
#6
-
No, I would not!
Hyperion/OS4 And A-EON/Acube live in symbiosis with each other. If software (OS4) is sold hardware is sold (Exception: OS4 Classic and Pegasos 2). If Hardware is sold software (OS4) is sold.
You could say Win-Win situation. But I don't think there is any profit. So it's more like trying to keep the loss to a minimum.
And of-course they need us to buy there stuff ;-)
Edit: Acube might have the embedded market to fall back on? I don't know.
Edit2: Forgot Pegasos 2
So Hyperion should force their customers to install software written by a third party with no financial recompense for Hyperion purely so this third party can make money from Hyperions customers?
You'd better write to Ben Hermans immediately pointing out the error of his ways! :roflmao:
-
While I completely understand your point, I think the argument also exists about applications being a big part of the user experience that they associate with the OS. Would not releasing an operating system while also pointing out that apps exist for said operating system be good PR for Hyperion?
I've heard the term symbiotic before in relation to this, but perhaps that's not how Hyperion sees it. Perhaps you're correct and they see it as infringement, and something for which they should be compensated. *shrug*
#6
Money talks and Hyperion is running a business afterall. Perhaps there will be an offical AmigaStore app included by default in a future release of OS4 that is run by Hyperion for its own profit?
-
Money talks and Hyperion is running a business afterall. Perhaps there will be an offical AmigaStore app included by default in a future release of OS4 that is run by Hyperion for its own profit?
I think they have more than enough (h/w support-wise) on their plate that they won't be considering such an idea for quite some time.
#6
-
Hyperion is running a business afterall.
You misspelled pyramid scheme ;)
-
You misspelled pyramid scheme ;)
:lol:
I was being generous to them for once. ;)
-
So Hyperion should force their customers to install software written by a third party with no financial recompense for Hyperion purely so this third party can make money from Hyperions customers?
You'd better write to Ben Hermans immediately pointing out the error of his ways! :roflmao:
I don't understand you, I never said that hyperion should force OS4 users to install third party software?
-
I don't understand you, I never said that hyperion should force OS4 users to install third party software?
Anything installed by default is "forced". Bad choice of word perhaps.
-
I still haven't heard from A-Eon. Will they get back to me? lol
-
Same here. So why this call and then nobody get's an answer?
-
@fishpondforever & @ciVic
From here (http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7572&start=40#96331):
I am very sorry for the delay. We have had a much bigger response to our developer programme than expected. We are still working through the list and you will receive a response shortly.
Each developer application is very bespoke because they bring different areas of expertise and interest. We are working to accommodate all of these with the roadmap we have in place. The discussion and subsequent application process therefore takes some time.
Thank you for you patience.
Hans
-
@fondpondforever & ciVic
I hope one of you is a web developer :D.
@A-EON
Jim Drew is a famous Amiga developer who needs the P96 driver developer kit for FPGA Arcade development.
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=80349
Encouraging development means not wasting developer's time as well as getting them the resources they need.
-
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=80349
Encouraging development means not wasting developer's time as well as getting them the resources they need.
Interesting thread! Of course in a frustrating, hands-wringing, "this is how we do it in Amiga-land" kind of way, but interesting none-the-less. Glad to hear Jim Drew is still active! :)
-
I don't know about "famous", notorious perhaps... ;)
Yes, I am looking for info on the Picasso96 RTG system. If there is source to a .card file and/or info about the various PSS0 hooks, I would love to get my hands on it.
I think it would be wise for A-EON to support OS3 and the 68K CPUs. After working on iFUSION and some PowerMacs, I can tell you that I don't want anything to do with the PPC platform. There are some products coming that will convert an 040/060 CPU pin platform into a raging FPGA based monster. So, I can see some new life for the older machines coming down the pike. I would definitely be interested in helping with 68K projects.
-
I don't know about "famous", notorious perhaps... ;)
Outlaws can be famous too. Maybe not all of your notoriety was positive but there were "circumstances" and the bad guys were in the management at C=. You have one of the most recognizable 3rd party Amiga developer names behind maybe Tim Jenson ;).
I think it would be wise for A-EON to support OS3 and the 68K CPUs. After working on iFUSION and some PowerMacs, I can tell you that I don't want anything to do with the PPC platform. There are some products coming that will convert an 040/060 CPU pin platform into a raging FPGA based monster. So, I can see some new life for the older machines coming down the pike. I would definitely be interested in helping with 68K projects.
So many of us love the little old 68k that could but wasn't allowed to. Maybe they will notice when there are more FPGA 68k Amigas that there are PPC Amigas. Then maybe they will realize they don't have a product or support for the bigger market they blocked. I guess it depends on what you want to be famous for but not everyone has the foresight or power to change the future.
-
@fishpondforever & @ciVic
From here (http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7572&start=40#96331):
Hans
Ah ok thanks a lot! I didn't know that I'm applying to something. I thought it is just an access to a community platform. Maybe I should have sent my CV :lol:
-
Mayby A-Eon should have put an application form link in the post so it's more useful and specific for them when a person contacts them with interest.
-
Just messaged them again with more detail this time. Hope they get back to me. ;)
-
Trevor in his speech says " 14 developers engaged under NDA..." Which is common in the software industry so I see no problem here.
Kamelito
Well - I see many.
Firstly, Amiga is not "software industry", it is recreational programming.
Secondly, any dispute over NDAs is a lose-lose scenario, so why bother?
Thirdly, by tricking developers to sign "secret NDAs", A-EON may prevent these developers from working with both AROS and MorphOS - but maybe that is actually the plan, who knows.
-
The AmigaOS used to be efficient enough and scalable enough to run on a 68000@7.14MHz with 256kB of memory. Now we need a 2 GHz clock speed and more than 4 GB of memory?
Yes we do, because "content is king" and "content" these days is _vastly_ larger than it used to be. And it is not going to shrink any time soon, so the only deal for hardware and operating systems to remain usable, is to handle it.
-
Well - I see many.
Firstly, Amiga is not "software industry", it is recreational programming.
Secondly, any dispute over NDAs is a lose-lose scenario, so why bother?
Thirdly, by tricking developers to sign "secret NDAs", A-EON may prevent these developers from working with both AROS and MorphOS - but maybe that is actually the plan, who knows.
Having signed the NDA I can tell you it says no such thing. It simply says I can't use the various a-eon ip in external products and that I can't talk about what software is going on behind the scenes. It doesn't prevet me from writing my own software (subject to not using the IP ofcourse) and it doesn't prevent me from writing for any OS.
-
Yes we do, because "content is king" and "content" these days is _vastly_ larger than it used to be. And it is not going to shrink any time soon, so the only deal for hardware and operating systems to remain usable, is to handle it.
Absolutly!
-
Hm, it was dropped? I still see lots of P96 stuff in OS4.1FE Classic.
Since FE (or more strictly graphics.library version 54) the functionality has moved inside graphics.library so p96 no longer patchs graphics.library rather the p96API is a wrapper to Gfx functions.
So you will still see the external files, the innards have changed.
-
Having signed the NDA I can tell you it says no such thing. It simply says I can't use the various a-eon ip in external products and that I can't talk about what software is going on behind the scenes. It doesn't prevent me from writing my own software (subject to not using the IP ofcourse) and it doesn't prevent me from writing for any OS.
Well, that is good, I guess. How do you distinguish between what is "their IP" and what is "your IP"? Is it about the ideas, the algorithms, or about the source code? Developers should be aware that NDAs are negotiable, it is not just a "sign here" thing.
-
@thread
given we kinda went off the rails here, i've moved off-topic posts to two new threads. for those of you interested in discussing P96 and opening up old software, please head to this thread (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=70084). for those of you interested in a rant on companies somehow destroying the amiga, you can head to the sock drawer thread (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=70085).
please keep this thread focused on A-EON's developer initiative. thanks! :)
-- eliyahu
-
Dear all!
I replied to the call but never got any answers back, have you?
Cheers!
-
Dear all!
I replied to the call but never got any answers back, have you?
Cheers!
My comment earlier in this thread regarding no reply issue;
"I sent a email to that email adress myself several weeks ago regarding login to AmiStore. No reply for weeks. Eventually I got tired of waiting, so I contacted Matthew directly to his Amigakit user on Amiga.org. Got a quick reply then."
I remember reading a comment from Matthew, where he said they had more response to the call than they expected, and are going thru the list one by one.
I obviously think that was the wrong way of doing it. They should have replied to everyone initially "Thanks for your show of intrest. We are currently processing the queries one by one, so expect some delay until we have capacity to adress your intrest. Sincerely, Matthew/Trevor" etc.
As its done at the moment, people mailing get the impression its a dead email adress.
I would recommend you just post your query via private message to Amigakit thru the messaging system on amiga.org and amigaworld.net. Usually Matthew responds quickly to those messages.
-
why am i not surprised?
@niding:
so what have you been engaged to work on? or is this under nda?
-
why am i not surprised?
@niding:
so what have you been engaged to work on? or is this under nda?
No, I just sent a mail to that adress since it is also used for issues regarding AmiStore.
Since that issue happened at the time people started to get annoyed about not getting any response to their queries, I just let them know that private messages has always gotten instant reaction from Matthew.
-
No, I just sent a mail to that adress since it is also used for issues regarding AmiStore.
Since that issue happened at the time people started to get annoyed about not getting any response to their queries, I just let them know that private messages has always gotten instant reaction from Matthew.
but the call for developers post points you explicitly to an email form. would be interesting if there is anyone who has successfully applied.
-
I know it explicitly calls for contact thru email. BUT, personally Im not of the patient type; If I dont get a response within "reasonable" time, I alway contact thru other means.
As I said; Aeonkit seems to be quite bad at email replies, so take the consequense of that ;)
-
I know it explicitly calls for contact thru email. BUT, personally Im not of the patient type; If I dont get a response within "reasonable" time, I alway contact thru other means.
Thanks for your reply, will do as you suggest!
Cheers! :)