ARM vs. PPC (why continue the PPC path?)

[dammy]

A15 is about 40% faster than A9. That gives you about 3.5 DMIPS/MHz.

So what is the price on the T4240?  We can go on and on the exact performance that gives one or the other the upper hand, it boils down what is cheap and powerful enough to make the average user happy.   Now as far as OS4, I would prefer it to remain in PPCland.

[asymetrix]

I dont know why we are even discussing 2.5 or 3 DMIPS here and there, geez

an i7 x86 has 53.3/MHZ or 177,730 MIPS at 3.33 GHz (6 core).

When I want a new Amiga system, I dont care what CPU it has, I want it CHEAP and FAST!

I just got myself a Dell XPS 17, i7 4 core - 8GB, 3GB geForce 555 GFX laptop and its amazing.

Noone writes in assembler anymore, so we need speed and apps to compensate.

I dont want an 8 core, 2.5 DMIPS CPU that costs an arm and a leg and performs at 1/4 speed.

We need to INCREASE Amiga users, so we need ready made- off the shelf, x86 systems.

price range laptop : 200 euro netbook, 400 euro mid range laptop, 800 euro DELL XPS 17 gaming laptop.

pre built systems : 250 euro, 450 euro, 550 euro, 750 euro high end

be honest, the first thing you wanted to know for an new Amiga system was PRICE !

Amiga company needs :

maybe even 1/3 price for add costs EG:

ADD PROFIT, maybe high as standard 60%
ADD 50-100 euro for monitor, keyboard, mouse.
ADD 25 -50 euro postage
ADD OS4

So a company aiming for 200 euro system HAS to target own costs price to min HALF sell price.

a 1p difference in any cost x 1000 systems sold, costs company an extra 10 euro aka a loss of 10 euro that potentially could be saved.

[SamuraiCrow]

Re:x86 vs. ARM performance vs. others

I was planning to use the 32-bit little-endian target being introduced into the Clang compiler by Google for use with their PNaCl virtual machine in conjunction with AROS.  It would be a statically compiled virtual machine (install time compile instead of JIT).  This way recompiled apps could be installed on ARM or x86-32 bit machines with equal ease.

It also wouldn't be too hard to add a big-endian 32-bit target to the compiler by modifying the other little-endian one.  This would allow PPC and any other big-endian machine such as the N68050 will be able to run the same code.

The big limitation is that running the code from these VMs on anything 64-bit would require a 32-bit emulation sandbox.  For Google's purposes, that's fine because their PNaCl browser plugin for Chrome will include a sandbox, but running a 64-bit version of AROS will also require a sandbox.

Another option would be to have a third and fourth file format that support 64-bit architectures in big-endian and little-endians respectively.  In my opinion this is a pain.

[Mrs Beanbag]

When I want a new Amiga system, I dont care what CPU it has, I want it CHEAP and FAST!

Amiga was never about having the fastest CPU.  Amiga was a media PC and it had the advantage because of its custom chipset.  The Blitter was a proto-GPU.  Xbox 360 gets by on a 3-core PPC chip (I wonder if AROS could be made to run on it?) and is perfectly affordable.

Performance-wise I'd like an Amiga that could play media and browse the internet without sweating, maybe play some games, maybe a bit of graphic design and compose some music... it was a computer you could use to do anything, let your creativity out.  It was never a workhorse.  I still occasionally use my A1200 for these sorts of things even today.

If you want a blazing fast CPU, get a PC, they've already got that market covered.  Amiga needs to fill a niche to succeed.  The niche exists.  There were people installing Linux on Playstation 3 until Sony stopped them, for some reason.

The niche is not tablets, either.  The Amiga niche is a computer that goes under your TV and doesn't need to boot the full OS to play a DVD.

At least, that's the way I see it.

[Iggy]

Amiga was never about having the fastest CPU.  Amiga was a media PC and it had the advantage because of its custom chipset.  The Blitter was a proto-GPU.  Xbox 360 gets by on a 3-core PPC chip (I wonder if AROS could be made to run on it?) and is perfectly affordable.

Performance-wise I'd like an Amiga that could play media and browse the internet without sweating, maybe play some games, maybe a bit of graphic design and compose some music... it was a computer you could use to do anything, let your creativity out.  It was never a workhorse.  I still occasionally use my A1200 for these sorts of things even today.

If you want a blazing fast CPU, get a PC, they've already got that market covered.  Amiga needs to fill a niche to succeed.  The niche exists.  There were people installing Linux on Playstation 3 until Sony stopped them, for some reason.

The niche is not tablets, either.  The Amiga niche is a computer that goes under your TV and doesn't need to boot the full OS to play a DVD.

At least, that's the way I see it.

Thank you very much for that sentiment. Personally, I just want DIFFERENT hardware. I already have an X86. And if I was using an ARM I'd be running Linux.

BTW - Samuraicrow, you must keep us informed on that idea. It sounds fascinating.

BTW - I wasn't interested in the 8610, I was interested in the MPC8640/8641 (and now the T5040).

[mongo]

The niche is not tablets, either.  The Amiga niche is a computer that goes under your TV and doesn't need to boot the full OS to play a DVD.

At least, that's the way I see it.

They already have something like that. It's called a DVD player.

[KimmoK]

I dont know why we are even discussing 2.5 or 3 DMIPS here and there, geez

an i7 x86 has 53.3/MHZ or 177,730 MIPS at 3.33 GHz (6 core).

I think those were MIPS per core.
So, i7 has about  8.8DMIPS per core?

Latest PPC designs have 6DMIPS per core and 12 cores (24 virtual cores). That's  130,000MIPS at 1.8Ghz for embedded use (2.5Ghz is the maximum clock rate -> 180,000MIPS or so with desktop caliber cooling?)

So, for performance, we "only" need SMP. :-(

The "problem" just seems to be that custom board are more expensive than mainstream boards.

[commodorejohn]

They already have something like that. It's called a DVD player.

Zing!

[Iggy]

I think those were MIPS per core.
So, i7 has about  8.8DMIPS per core?

Latest PPC designs have 6DMIPS per core and 12 cores (24 virtual cores). That's  130,000MIPS at 1.8Ghz for embedded use (2.5Ghz is the maximum clock rate -> 180,000MIPS or so with desktop caliber cooling?)

So, for performance, we "only" need SMP. :-(

The "problem" just seems to be that custom board are more expensive than mainstream boards.

No John,
That's zing!

>we "only" need SMP

There's always Linux

[freqmax]

Multi-core ARM board?

Oh, I mean multi-chip.. I wonder where the soldering iron is....

[Hammer]

I think those were MIPS per core.
So, i7 has about  8.8DMIPS per core?

Latest PPC designs have 6DMIPS per core and 12 cores (24 virtual cores). That's  130,000MIPS at 1.8Ghz for embedded use (2.5Ghz is the maximum clock rate -> 180,000MIPS or so with desktop caliber cooling?)

So, for performance, we "only" need SMP. :-(

The "problem" just seems to be that custom board are more expensive than mainstream boards.

AMD Llano's 400 stream processors can do 260,000 MIPS at 650Mhz (400 stream processors or 80 VLIW5 math processor array). K markings can overclocked the "Radeon HD cores" to 900Mhz.

[Hammer]

Amiga was never about having the fastest CPU.  Amiga was a media PC and it had the advantage because of its custom chipset.  The Blitter was a proto-GPU.  Xbox 360 gets by on a 3-core PPC chip (I wonder if AROS could be made to run on it?) and is perfectly affordable.

Most of Xbox 360's heavy compute work is done on AMD Xenos GpGPU i.e. 48 SIMD math processor array.

[Mrs Beanbag]

They already have something like that. It's called a DVD player.

Very good.  But it would be better to say that it's called an Xbox.  The difference is an Xbox doesn't come with a "productivity" OS and a keyboard.

Most of Xbox 360's heavy compute work is done on AMD Xenos GpGPU i.e. 48 SIMD math processor array.

Exactly!  That's its "blitter".