ARM vs. PPC (why continue the PPC path?)

[_ThEcRoW]

PPC history? don't make me laugh.

[Duce]

PPC on the Amiga was a cobbled together mess in an attempt to keep up and nothing more, even when it was brand new in the 90's.

It was the only option back in the day that we had, and we were sunk long before it came out.  Just because it's what we are used to doesn't make it something to admire, and I say that as a person who's main Amiga is strictly PPC with no 68k onboard.

PPC is going nowhere.

[minator]

@takemehomegrandma

not having a broad base for general, open "desktop" systems is probably the main one. Genesi and Pandaboard are two, are there more?

Yes, several:

http://www.linaro.org/low-cost-development-boards

..and of course the very inexpensive Raspberry Pi.

[NovaCoder]

PPC on the Amiga was a cobbled together mess in an attempt to keep up and nothing more, even when it was brand new in the 90's.

It was the only option back in the day that we had, and we were sunk long before it came out.  Just because it's what we are used to doesn't make it something to admire, and I say that as a person who's main Amiga is strictly PPC with no 68k onboard.

PPC is going nowhere.

Agreed.

AmigaOS has painted itself into a corner, obviously going PPC back in the 90's was a mistake, if they'd just hung on to 68k for a few more years not only would have OS 3.9 been a better OS but it would have become clear that PPC was not the solution.

Anyway the problem now of course is that so much software exists for PPC it will be hard to switch to any other CPU.   Just think what a mess a new OS would be if it had to intergrate emulation of both PPC and 68k...yuk.

I guess the only real option would be only support PPC emulation on an OS level and let some 3rd party application like WinUAE take care of the older 68k stuff which would be workable but still a bit of a mess

[bloodline]

No need to emulate PPC, the source code for anything worthwhile will still exist (and will be in C, as no one in their right mind coded in PPC ASM) and can be recompiled for x86/ARM etc

[Iggy]

Your problem is that this question is simply wrong.  
PowerPC is a technology that we Amiga users use in our Amiga 15 years.
15 years of history, 15 years of memories.  
PowerPC is a technology that we know, technology that we love.  
For many of us, Amiga users only Amiga with PowerPC is a true Amiga.  
68k is (was)  ridiculously slow.  
And a PC with x86 will never be Amiga.  
You should think for themselves.  
We Amiga users will not resign from 15 years of history for peanuts.

I'm not sure I agree about the 68K as I have a lot of fond memories from the '80s and '90s (when Motorola processors were so much better then Intel's offerings it was painful).
But RISC was and is still a better solution then CISC (like the X86).
I hope all of you that are advocating ARM realize that ARM and PPC have far more in common then either does with X86.
And PPCs are still more advanced then most ARM processor (although ARM is catching up quickly).

Personally, I'd just like to see Amiga (and Amiga like OS') stay away from X86. RISC was and is the way to go.

MorphOS>G5>ARM

[freqmax]

Source may exist, but isn't available :p

But forget the hardware, think about the concept. Best tech solution for a budget that a mass market can afford.
It should make a difference too.. like an iPhone

[mongo]

There is no "Power" in PowerPC, not in the year 2012 and beyond! ARM and/or x86, but not PPC!

Really?

http://cache.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/fact_sheet/T4240T4160FS.pdf?fpsp=1

12 cores, 1.8 GHz, 6.0 DMIPS/MHz per core not good enough for you?

[commodorejohn]

Really?

http://cache.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/fact_sheet/T4240T4160FS.pdf?fpsp=1

12 cores, 1.8 GHz, 6.0 DMIPS/MHz per core not good enough for you?

But you don't get it, mongo! PowerPC is dead! Because they say it, it must be so!

[TheBilgeRat]

From TFA:

T4240 Markets and Applications
• Service provider networking: RNC,
metro networking, gateway, core/edge
router
• Enterprise equipment: Router, switch
services, UTM
• Data centers: ADC, WOC, UTM, proxy,
server appliance
• Storage controllers: FCoE bridging,
iSCSI controller, SAN controller
• Aerospace, defense and government:
Radar imaging, ruggedized network
appliance
• Industrial computing: Single board
computers

[Iggy]

...Single board computers

Yes, that would do nicely.

But, I'd still prefer the Freescale T5040.
Only four cores, but up to 2.5 GHz.
Not as many PCIe lanes as the PA6T though.

Yeah, PPC must be dead.
Freescale and Applied Micro keep introducing new ones and IBM is even introducing PPCs like the one they just designed for Nintendo that use features from the Power8 family.

Frankly, I just wish Microsoft had allowed third parties to use the Xenon.

[matthey]

But RISC was and is still a better solution then CISC (like the X86).
I hope all of you that are advocating ARM realize that ARM and PPC have far more in common then either does with X86.

Modern ARM with Thumb2, x86 and 68060 are a CISC decoder with RISC core. PowerPC and the original ARM are RISC decoder with RISC core. It looks to me like CISC cores are all but dead but so are RISC decoders.

And PPCs are still more advanced then most ARM processor (although ARM is catching up quickly).

PPC has some powerful features but they are also difficult to program. It's easier to get more power out of a CPU that is easy to program. ARM (with Thumb2) isn't bad but N68k is easier and I think will have better code density.

[takemehomegrandma]

1 is ARM better price/mips than the cheapest i7?

ARM's main strengths are efficiency (performance/watt), and price.

Also the ARM business model, which builds on others licensing the core technology for inclusion in their own CPU design is an enabler. Hence we see lots of different CPU's, coming from numerous manufacturers, that includes various accelerator technologies and hardware controllers inside the very CPU (including graphics and video/audio decoding/encoding, etc). ARM CPU's are generally complete "Systems on Chips" that can do what most people expects from a netbook or tablet.

 

2 is there an ARM CPU for sale today as powerful as the fastest i7

No, no, not by far! :lol:

But it's still quite capable for the "every-day tasks" that most people use their computers for. And it's cheap!

I bet that 95% of the Core-i3, i5 and i7 users (i.e. the "common people" (not those really into computing, if you know what I mean), more or less clueless, buying their pre-built systems off the shelves at MediaMarkt or from Dell) spends *most* of their time using Office, Youtube, Facebook, e-mailing, watching holiday photos and videos, video conferencing, chatting, playing music, and watching DVD's and 1080p movies, etc (power gaming, rendering, compiling of huge projects like Linux distributions, etc are excluded), and then current ARM chips works just fine.

But for raw performance, I guess the *current* ARM CPU's would be more comparable to "Atom" kind of x86 CPU's rather than the desktop CPU's...

[takemehomegrandma]

No need to emulate PPC, the source code for anything worthwhile will still exist (and will be in C, as no one in their right mind coded in PPC ASM) and can be recompiled for x86/ARM etc

Exactly my point!

Some people say that a dual core X1000 (or indeed a Power Mac with dual G4's) will make it possible to develop SMP for Amiga, but if you aim to do that, to develop "modern" features, like real SMP, real Memory Protection, 64-bit with increased addressable memory limit (which would also make "Virtual Memory"/swap-disk meaningful), it will *require* a break-up from the past, it will require a fresh start with a clean slate. And if you are to do that, why on earth continue the PPC path?

And as you said, no need to emulate the PPC. Most of the essential stuff is still "alive" and can be ported/recompiled. It would be a bit like AROS on x86 in that sense, you won't be able to run old 68k Amiga applications as seamless as you do in MorphOS today (would require UAE), but many of the MorphOS native applications could still be made available in a new version. Heck, with MorphOS 3.x, many things will even come bundled with the OS itself, including CD/DVD burning SW, FTP, etc.

[takemehomegrandma]

Really?

http://cache.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/fact_sheet/T4240T4160FS.pdf?fpsp=1

But you don't get it, mongo! PowerPC is dead! Because they say it, it must be so!

Yes really.

Nobody claims PPC is dead for routers, switches, printers, and similar embedded applications (where CPU's like this one will do just fine, I'm sure). But nobody is developing PPC CPU's for laptop/desktop usage, that stopped 5-6 years ago (whenever it was that Apple went x86) and more importantly, nobody is making viable laptop/desktop motherboards or systems based on PPC CPU's!

It's dead Jim!

[dammy]

Really?

http://cache.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/fact_sheet/T4240T4160FS.pdf?fpsp=1

12 cores, 1.8 GHz, 6.0 DMIPS/MHz per core not good enough for you?

For embedded system, it's great for networking.  As far as going head to head with the A15, I have a feeling it's going to come up way short.  So what are the prices on the T4240?