Amiga One or Pegasos?

[Lando]

There you go wiseguy. Last sentence. You claim they are all facts.

Yes.  Facts.  Thats what they are.  Like I said, If you're disputing that part of what I wrote is true, tell me which part you're referring to, and if it proves not to be a fact I will happily retract it :-)

[Darth_X]

@cgutjahr

These were never promised for AmigaOS4, they were promised for AmigaDE. Post a link where somebody promised them for OS4, or remove the signature

I added this questions to my signature in hopes that I would get some notice everywhere and hopefully  official comments! :-D

Either way, I was told these items were completed, but there is NO official report of them being completed on the AmigaInc website. Remember: "If it's not posted here.. then its not official". So where is it? (If there is, please post a link/URL here for me to check out please!)  :-D

I find it ODD that these items would be completed, but then burried, when they are really needed in OS4.

With all the porting work Hyperion is doing for 68K AmigaOS to PPC, you would think AmigaInc would commision the stuff originally developed for Amiga-Anywhere to be ported to AmigaOS4, where the main focus is now.

ps: I'll have to check out what the iBrowse team are doing with regards web browser :-D

[PulsatingQuasar]

As far as corporate prospects are concerned, if you're concerned about future stability, Genesi is certainly in much better shape than Amiga, Inc. and Hyperion. They have income sources in other industries (airline security, as I understand it), and their product line looks like it could be pretty diverse. Watching how Bill Buck has money to throw at promotion and so on, it's hard to argue on this one.

Is that so! Amiga also have income outside the Amiga industry. So do Hyperion! When the AmigaOne and OS 4 are ready in quantities we don't need advertising. The WORD is enough to jump start a chain reaction in news sites.

It's interesting that a lot of Amigans, who generally think of themselves as independent thinkers, are now putting down these other "rebels" who've started up their own thing without the official blessing. I don't see much free thinking when people are definite about a product choice when they haven't even had their hands on either option.

It's just like you said. History! And the fact is that history proves Hyperion delivers. These are NOT stupid people. Not only that; there are 30 of the best programmers working on the AmigaOS. They all know what we like in the AmigaOS.
We all like what VisualPrefs can do so something like it is implemented (well, there are always a few that don't).

We must keep in perspective here. Hyperion started working on OS 4 much later then those people on MorphOS so it would have been a miracle if these guys were ready on the same time.

Hyperion also won't sell anything untill it is sufficiently stable. There will always be bugs and quirks! You will only iron out most of those if your working on CMM level 5. Then you need 500 programmers and 5 years to bring out OS 4.

[DaveP]

OK here goes.

The Pegasos is the best solution by far.

Not a fact. Thats a poijnt of view.

It's a custom-designed computer made by experts in the Amiga hardware field (ex-Phase5 people) whereas the AmigaOne is a Generic, off-the-shelf POP board.  

Subjective as to whether they are experts, they have experience. The AmigaONE is
also custom designed, that also ( like the Pegasos ) happens to have something in
common with POP.

Also MorphOS is in a much more advanced state - it's actually here, now - people are using it.  

Agreed.

OS4, though, doesn't exist as an OS

Untrue. It does exist as an OS. Just only the betatesters are using it.

(just modules which are being tested on 68k machines) and nobody knows how long it will take to complete.  

Untrue.

Pegasos also has the benefit of firewire as standard.

Subjective: benefit.

Also, Genesi (the company making Pegasos) is very community-oriented and keep people informed on current developments,

Agreed.

sponsors shows, offers large discounts on Pegasos boards to developers, and are generally very helpful and friendly.

Agreed. For the most part. Although joining Phoenix to get a discount
is not my idea of a pleasurable process but that is MY subjective
opinion.

Amiga Inc are the exact opposite as they tell lies

Subjective that they are "lies". Wouldn't you say that claiming that
the dev con for Pegasos was going to be far earlier than it actually
was also a "lie"? or that G4 was going to be available on the Pegasos? You
see "lie" is an emotive and subjective statement in this context.

and don't communicate

Untrue. They do communicate, its just when they do everyone wishes
they hadn't.

and even stole money from Amiga users

Thats right, Fleecy nipped in through the window and nicked your wallet.

through their coupon scheme (If you don't know about this scheme, then back in July last year Amiga Inc ran a promotion whereby you paid $50 to get a $50 coupon for discount on AmigaOne, a T-Shirt, and entitlement to special discounts on future Amiga products.

No. You payed $50 dollars to join a club and to get a $50 coupon discount on AmigaONE. The T-shirt
although no one has one yet apparently never had a committed "when" it would pop
through the letterbox. I happen to be very negative about this scheme
but "steal" is way over the top and NOT a fact. I might not like the facts
as you clearly don't but I at least acknowledge the truth of the matter.

So, there's the facts - it's up to you to decide which one you want  :-)

Again. They are not all facts.

There you go wiseguy. Last sentence. You claim they are all facts. This is
going to result in a flame war and you know it. Don't play the innocent. You want
to do this , the place for you is : Flame War Network[/quote]

[Darth_X]

@Tickly

Huh? In what way 'similar' its based on AmigaOS, not BSD

Yes, and.. source code is being compiled from  BSD and Linux for core components of AmigaOS4. (There is also a rumour that code for ExecSG is compiled from openVMS too.)

TBH, i see neither of those two things as all that important for me.

Perhaps, not for you, but to developers coming from Windows or Mac then these are desired features.

By the way, I am coming from the Windows market. Don't you want me to be in this market?

[DaveP]

Darth_X wrote:
@Tickly

Huh? In what way 'similar' its based on AmigaOS, not BSD

Yes, and.. source code is being compiled from  BSD and Linux for core components of AmigaOS4. (There is also a rumour that code for ExecSG is compiled from openVMS too.)

#1 that rumour is just a rumour.

#2 it is being cross compiled - this means that all it really uses is a compiler
that can generate PPC binaries. People used to cross compile spectrum games
using a developer kit on the Atari ST. Doesn't mean the games take any part
of the AtariST forwards onto the ZX Spectrum.

TBH, i see neither of those two things as all that important for me.

Perhaps, not for you, but to developers coming from Windows or Mac then these are desired features.

By the way, I am coming from the Windows market. Don't you want me to be in this market?

They are "desirable" features - but nice to haves - not essentials.

[sgm]

DaveP wrote:
They are "desirable" features - but nice to haves - not essentials.

Let me disagree on this point: a component model and high level APIs are crucial to foster development on a platform. We're in 2003, we don't want to reinvent the wheel once again, do we? If someone creates a component and releases it in the public domain, I may be able to integrate it in my application at little to zero cost.
COM/ActiveX may give you a clear example: leaving the beauty of the Windows COM implementation aside, the productivity of the Windows developer is much higher thanks to components. If I have to use a professional grid in my app, I'd use FlexGrid rather than develop my own...

[DaveP]

Oh come on. Who said anything about re-inventing the wheel? Tell me
what in the AOS4 feature list you would put above this?

If you are a Windows developer playing around with MicroSoft based
components ( or even an open source or Java framework ) then
are you likely to want to learn a new API? No. What is needed is
a port of what the developers are using RIGHT NOW - embrace
and extend it.

ACM is its own peculiar beast.

They are nice to haves. First lets have a working operating system
and native development tools please. Then we will see about high
level developer kits.

[Lando]

DaveP wrote:
OK here goes.

The Pegasos is the best solution by far.

Not a fact. Thats a poijnt of view.

A point of view based on facts.  Maybe I would insert "In the opinion of most right-minded people" in front of that first sentence.

It's a custom-designed computer made by experts in the Amiga hardware field (ex-Phase5 people) whereas the AmigaOne is a Generic, off-the-shelf POP board.  

Subjective as to whether they are experts, they have experience.

Can you think of anyone with more expertise in designing PowerPC Amiga hardware than Phase 5?
It is correct to say that Genesi are experts.

The AmigaONE is
also custom designed, that also ( like the Pegasos ) happens to have something in
common with POP.

Also MorphOS is in a much more advanced state - it's actually here, now - people are using it.  

Agreed.

OS4, though, doesn't exist as an OS

Untrue. It does exist as an OS. Just only the betatesters are using it.

[/quote]
No.  It does not.    
People are running PARTS of OS4 on their classic Amigas.

(just modules which are being tested on 68k machines) and nobody knows how long it will take to complete.  

Untrue.

No.  Not untrue.  Unless you happen to know someone with a working Beta of OS4 booting into Workbench on Teron boards with no 68k present?  

Pegasos also has the benefit of firewire as standard.

Subjective: benefit.

Oh.  So Firewire is a disadvantage?

Also, Genesi (the company making Pegasos) is very community-oriented and keep people informed on current developments,

Agreed.

sponsors shows, offers large discounts on Pegasos boards to developers, and are generally very helpful and friendly.

Agreed. For the most part.

Amiga Inc are the exact opposite as they tell lies

Subjective that they are "lies". Wouldn't you say that claiming that
the dev con for Pegasos was going to be far earlier than it actually
was also a "lie"? or that G4 was going to be available on the Pegasos? You
see "lie" is an emotive and subjective statement in this context.

"AmigaOne PPC /1200 On schedule and rockin"
"Others have taken your money in the past, with no products ever delivered to customers. We are not doing that, nor would we EVER do that"
"AmigaOne for the A1200 will be out this summer (2001)"
"AmigaOS 4.0 out this summer (2001) with the first of the AmigaOne Zico specification machines."

Actually I could fill pages and pages with this stuff :-)

and don't communicate

Untrue. They do communicate, its just when they do everyone wishes
they hadn't.

10+ emails unanswered.  Do not communicate.

and even stole money from Amiga users

Thats right, Fleecy nipped in through the window and nicked your wallet.

No. He was slightly more subtle than that.  Not much, mind you.

through their coupon scheme (If you don't know about this scheme, then back in July last year Amiga Inc ran a promotion whereby you paid $50 to get a $50 coupon for discount on AmigaOne, a T-Shirt, and entitlement to special discounts on future Amiga products.

No. You payed $50 dollars to join a club and to get a $50 coupon discount on AmigaONE. The T-shirt
although no one has one yet apparently never had a committed "when" it would pop
through the letterbox. I happen to be very negative about this scheme
but "steal" is way over the top and NOT a fact. I might not like the facts
as you clearly don't but I at least acknowledge the truth of the matter.

Pedantry.  The fact that Amiga Inc didn't specify WHEN the product would delivered is neither here nor there.  

They said:-
"All items will be delivered after the completion of the promotion, and initial sign up program".
The promotion ended in August last year.

If I buy a product online, and that company takes my money, and eight months later the product I ordered has still not arrived, that I have had no explanation from that company as to the reasons for the delay, that I have no replies to my demands for re-payment of my money, I think it is fair to say  that the company in question has stolen my money.  In the real world.

So, there's the facts - it's up to you to decide which one you want  :-)

Again. They are not all facts.

Well, you haven't convinced me that anything I wrote is not 100% true I'm afraid.

There you go wiseguy. Last sentence. You claim they are all facts. This is
going to result in a flame war and you know it. Don't play the innocent. You want
to do this , the place for you is : Flame War Network

The only one flaming people in this thread is you.  I'm sure ann will welcome you with open arms.

[Hooligan_DCS]

I'd put it this way. AmigaOne without OS4 is practically useless. And judging by late silence from Amiga, plus Hyperion folks can't even give an estimate when it will be ready, it doesn't look too good. I have bet money (5€) that this will happen in 3/4 of 2003.
Also there are _rumours_ of A1 board being somewhat crippled and a hack. if this is true, your guess is just as good as mine.

Meanwhile there are hundreds of Pegasos' floating around used by developers. And some of them I'd call "Keypeople of community". Those developers won't necessarily never do any good for A1/OS4.

Also, while waiting for OS4 to arrive, MOS gets better and more polished every day.
OS4 looks good on paper, MOS looks good now.
AmigaOne doesn't look good on paper, Pegasos2 does. And those two items are likely to arrive just about the same time (3rd quarter 2003 as I quessed ;-)
WHEN Peg2 and A1/OS4 arrives, there's (hopefully) quite nice set of software available for MOS, when developing for A1 only *begins*.

Looking at the situation from this point of view, it's obvious who leaves the ring undefeated.

My point of view only, fuel up the flamethrowers.

[sgm]

DaveP wrote:

They are nice to haves. First lets have a working operating system
and native development tools please. Then we will see about high
level developer kits.

You're damn right  :-) Let's have OS4 first, then we'll see.

[Paul_Gadd]

@dweebgeek

Ignore the "Amiga Rulez" people and get what does the job you need it for.

As for Amiga inc, they quote wild and untrue release dates but they are not liars simply because they are "Amiga inc", if this was any other company outside of Amiga  you guys would not be defending them as if they are some soft of heros.

[DaveP]

Not a fact. Thats a poijnt of view.

A point of view based on facts.  Maybe I would insert "In the opinion of most right-minded people" in front of that first sentence.

Childish. So everyone who doesn't agree with you is not right minded?

Can you think of anyone with more expertise in designing PowerPC Amiga hardware than Phase 5?
It is correct to say that Genesi are experts.

Experience != Expertise.

OS4, though, doesn't exist as an OS

Untrue. It does exist as an OS. Just only the betatesters are using it.

No.  It does not.    
People are running PARTS of OS4 on their classic Amigas.  

Oh yes and you accuse me of pedantry. Please tell me how you know
more of the current status of the Beta than I do?

(just modules which are being tested on 68k machines) and nobody knows how long it will take to complete.  

Untrue.

No.  Not untrue.  Unless you happen to know someone with a working Beta of OS4 booting into Workbench on Teron boards with no 68k present?  

No. You said "just modules which are being tested on 68k machines" which is clearly
incorrect. Even in the public domain people like you know that ExecSG is PPC native and
is being tested on PPC machines unless you are going to dream up some PPC emulator
for 68k. Beyond the public domain we don't need to go - despite you trying to
shift ground on the criteria because we have already contradicted your "fact" with
the truth as is publically known.

Pegasos also has the benefit of firewire as standard.

Subjective: benefit.

Oh.  So Firewire is a disadvantage?

I repeat: subjective: benefit.

and don't communicate

Untrue. They do communicate, its just when they do everyone wishes
they hadn't.

10+ emails unanswered.  Do not communicate.

Communicate, post here, executive updates that you refer to. Even HMetal
( Ray Akey ) talks openly in the forum. Press release we have all been ripping
shreds out of on CeBit was signed by Amiga Inc. They are certainly less
communicative than they used to be.

and even stole money from Amiga users

Thats right, Fleecy nipped in through the window and nicked your wallet.

No. He was slightly more subtle than that.  Not much, mind you.

Care to explain?

through their coupon scheme (If you don't know about this scheme, then back in July last year Amiga Inc ran a promotion whereby you paid $50 to get a $50 coupon for discount on AmigaOne, a T-Shirt, and entitlement to special discounts on future Amiga products.

No. You payed $50 dollars to join a club and to get a $50 coupon discount on AmigaONE. The T-shirt
although no one has one yet apparently never had a committed "when" it would pop
through the letterbox. I happen to be very negative about this scheme
but "steal" is way over the top and NOT a fact. I might not like the facts
as you clearly don't but I at least acknowledge the truth of the matter.

Pedantry.  The fact that Amiga Inc didn't specify WHEN the product would delivered is neither here nor there.  

Not pedantry. You were claiming that your POV were facts.

They said:-
"All items will be delivered after the completion of the promotion, and initial sign up program".
The promotion ended in August last year.

Yep. They said that and it is still AFTER the completion of the promotion.

If I buy a product online, and that company takes my money, and eight months later the product I ordered has still not arrived, that I have had no explanation from that company as to the reasons for the delay, that I have no replies to my demands for re-payment of my money, I think it is fair to say  that the company in question has stolen my money.  In the real world.

Whats your club membership details? The product you ordered was "club membership".

Well, you haven't convinced me that anything I wrote is not 100% true I'm afraid.

No, what I haven't done is changed your opinion of Amiga Inc. I have clearly
demonstrated that you posted your opinion as fact.

The only one flaming people in this thread is you.  I'm sure ann will welcome you with open arms.

[/quote]
Oh so disagree with you and exposing your trolling for a flame war for the world to see
is flaming you? Amazing.

[Darth_X]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


DaveP wrote:

They are nice to haves. First lets have a working operating system
and native development tools please. Then we will see about high
level developer kits.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You're damn right  Let's have OS4 first, then we'll see

 

YES!

[DaveP]

Paul_Gadd wrote:
@dweebgeek

Ignore the "Amiga Rulez" people and get what does the job you need it for.

As for Amiga inc, they quote wild and untrue release dates but they are not liars simply because they are "Amiga inc", if this was any other company outside of Amiga  you guys would not be defending them as if they are some soft of heros.

I couldn't think of a less of an "Amiga Rulez" person than myself, well
maybe Bill Buck but thats it. I'm not defending them *because*
they are "Amiga Inc".

I would not go so far as to accuse them of theft, I was not stupid enough
to fall for the I Am Amiga rubbish in the first place for a start.

I would not describe Amiga Inc as "liars" ( which has serious overtones
at least in this country to do with litigation )
nor would I describe Genesi as "liars" just because they both have failed
to meet ALL the expectation that they set, have slipped dates, were let down
by suppliers etc. It is called the "real world". I mean look back at Viscorp there
are still questions unanswered for a lot of people that go around accusing
BBRV of deliberately misleading the public during that time. The reality
of the matter is that there is things that you can say in public that go
tits up practically as you thought something was a done deal.

I happen to have little respect for the marketing speak that is spoken
by every Executive update and I have a LOT of respect for the straight
talk of Alan ( even though I don't always agree with them ).

[Spidey]

Hello DaveP,

A lot is said on this subject since my post earlier today. But to answer your question:

I've got the Peg1 here (I'm writing this mail on it with IBrowse2.3reg :-))
This board is the same as the pictures circulating on the net, so it has PCI and a AGP slot.
My confusion was just about the Peg2 board. I read only the comments on Amiga.Org so I dropped my confusion here, that's it.

I'm not a guy who wants to speculate about stuff (though it's fun to read it :-D).
I could say that Genesi are making stuff behind curtains, but I don't know it for sure, I've just heard it. Or I could discuss the betatesting of OS4 at this moment. I just don't know how much is integrated in the Exec, so I stay away from saying something about that part too.

When it comes, people will evaluate it and then we can compare these two systems in speed and performance.
That is what I think about this whole stuff.

There is only one thing I feel I'm cheated with and that's the 50 Euro coupon deal.
The day I decided to pay for it, I heared and read that the A1 was about to be released and that day was 07 july 2002!! Until now I didn't get anything from Amiga Inc. the only guys I will support are Hyperion. I'll buy OS4 and that's it.

Spidey