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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Gaming => Topic started by: on November 17, 2002, 02:01:13 AM

Title: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: on November 17, 2002, 02:01:13 AM
OK, the Amiga, in the good old days, was the don as far as games was concerned. But it began to lose it's footing and crumble against PCs in the mid 90's.

Being a Mac user I have seen what impressive software feats can be acheived as far as gaming is concerned on an 800MHz G4 (sadly not mine - I only have a G3/400 :-( ) with a good NVIDIA card in it.

What I want to know is does anyone, honestly please :-), think the AmigaONE/AOS4.x (or Pegasos/MOS), with it's releatively low OS overhead, modern architecture and powerful CPUs, will be able to grab anything significant back of the games market it once held in the late 80's/early 90's?

I'm not posting hate-mail or anything I just geniunely want to know, as someone wha has seen the only other consumer PPC platform struggle continuously to keep up with the PC and consles in games because of a combination of Apple's apathy, developers reluctance to poor effort into a tiny market share and being hard to port the inevitably less-well written games from the PC (not all I hasten to add - just some). Hopefully Amiga Inc. will be backing games companies for starters with ready-made APIs for stuff like joysticks, grahics handling etc., something Apple is dragging it's feet with (I will stop whining about them one day - promise :-D). As for the market share I think that is something only sound marketing, investment and a good start can boost. And badly written games? Well that's not OUR fault is it ;-)

I'd like to see the Amiga back and snapping at the heels of the PC and Playstation 2. The competition will do them good!
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: 4pLaY on November 17, 2002, 02:08:13 AM
in a perfect world hell yeah! but in the real world! not a chance in hell! if any of the camps make it half of what Apple has these days i will be more then amazed! to dream of anything beyond this is just pure unreal unless someone puts a lot and i mean A LOT of money into it.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: KennyR on November 17, 2002, 02:13:06 AM
It's not really the hardware that counts, it's the games companies. Games these days can cost literally millions of dollars to make and a team of dozens of coders, artists, etc - well out of the power of Amiga coders. So to get games of the same quality as other platforms, we'd have to have them ported. We couldn't afford ports of the most successful games, so we'd have to put up with less sucessful ones. So the other platforms would get these better games faster for only a fraction of the hardware price. This cannot continue, or the Amiga has no chance.

I don't want to sound pessimistic, but this is a huge problem. Games companies must somehow be lured back to the Amiga to release games natively instead of ports by 3rd parties years later. To do that will require a bigger user base and some clever commercial maneouvring by a company dedicated only to that cause - and we have, for better or for worse, AInc to do that. Now all we have to do is try to stop the pro-x86 and anti-AInc ppl undermining everything we do so we are big enough and look like a serious enough platform to develop for.

The more people decide that the A1 route is not for them, the less chance we have of that happening. That's really the sad part.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it
Post by: Kay on November 17, 2002, 02:21:43 AM
Honestly, no, I don't think so. Not OS4.x. Maybe OS5.x or higher, if all goes exceptionally well. But to be at the forefront with such a tiny fraction of the userbase, no.

There's always a slight chance, though. I don't think today's games market is very good. Remember in the old days, when you could load up a new game, and don't know how to play it, because you hadn't played anything quite like it before? Those were the golden days of gaming. Nowadays, most games are just some refinement over something which has already been made. If AmigaOS4 could offer something original, then maybe it could attract some attention. I'm not sure how likely that is, though.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think gaming on the AmigaOne will suck. There will probably be some good new games, and many of the games we have today will run a lot better than before. Additionally, we can tap into the Linux and Mac games market. Which means I will get access to Alpha Centauri...:-D

Kay
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it
Post by: legion on November 17, 2002, 03:03:41 AM
Kay has an interesting point.  I have thought about this a bit, and (hear me out) this is my conclusion:

How many people do you know that run Windows "just for the games?"  

If I were an investor in AInc, you know what I would throw money into?  getting Team17 to start hacking away on a KILLER game.  Something that will look kick-ass on a Radeon 8500 or a Matrox Parhelia (these cards DO have untapped potential).  This game would ONLY be available on amiga, and it would make the gamer mags/sites drool.  

Would they be pissed that it wasn't a windows game?  without a doubt.  But if it was worthy of the hype, they'd fall all over themselves to get an A1 to review it.  

Granted, coming up with the KILLER game would be a somewhat daunting task, but it would be HUGE step forward for our platform.

The naysayers are going to attack here, saying "a G3 isn't powerful enough to support games like the x86 boxes..."

You're wrong.  Offload all the graphics to the GPU, and the sound mixing to the EMU10k1 chip, and you free up a whole lot of cycles.  This technique wholly why the PS1 was a great gaming rig, and partially explains why the Amiga was so efficient.

*throws out 2 cents*
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it
Post by: Tomas on November 17, 2002, 03:19:02 AM
actually its a g4 800mhz, not a g3  ;-)

Only the cheapest model of AmigaOne has a g3 cpu.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it
Post by: Rob on November 17, 2002, 03:46:17 AM
For Amiga to get the attention of the rest of the gaming world it would have to have several "must have" games, games that could you not get for any other system.  Maybe Clickboom's 666 could turn out to be one of those killer apps.  I really don't know though as I have no details of the game.  All their games have been very well produced and polished looking to date though.

I cant see any possibility of this happening in the short term though.  If we are still here in one years time things may begin to change depending on what sort of projects people already have planned or might start soon.  Generally it takes at least two years to develope a really good game.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it
Post by: on November 17, 2002, 03:49:30 AM
the 2D days where also alot more profietable for the individual considering it took a very small team if a team at all the produce a 2D game... whereas 3D games take teams...and take much longer to produce it's a way bigger gamble and it isnt done for the fun of it very often..
I think if AOS gets a game foothold it'll be in 5.0+... to me 4.0 will be a stepping stone not a final place to rest...and no i dont think MorphOS will do much bettter...in fact given the stability and the lack of variety of even  classic AOS games that run properly I think MOS will do alot worse...
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain
Post by: on November 17, 2002, 08:21:32 AM
OK, the resounding reaction seems to be that it will be unlikely. Nice to know everyone on here is realistic, makes a change from all the head-in-the-clouds Apple zealots I have to put up with who constantly whine becuase no-one wants to buy their 'obviously superior' computers ;-)

So, seeinag as not many people so far seem to thing Pegaos/MOS is going to managed at all using A-Box, how is AmogaONE going to be for running old games? I know it will have a hardware solution, in the form of a port to attach an A1200, but will the cost, seeing as you seeem to need a very large tower case and a special one at that maybe, drive people away and instead drive them towards an Emulator also?
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: AmigaMac on November 17, 2002, 09:26:35 AM
Well hopefully the Mac game developers will take a chance on the Amiga game market and start porting over their goods... it would only make sense for them to (in my mind)!  Yeah and you're correct about Apple dragging its feet where supporting joysticks and such, Macally finally sent out the drivers for the iShock II, which I have been waiting for since summer!  I hate playing games on the keyboard, which is the main reason I prefer game consoles over playing games on Macs and PCs!

Well we could start sending emails to the various Mac game developers to help the situation, anybody else game for that?
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: yssing on November 17, 2002, 10:26:07 AM
Well the way I see it.
The amiga has far better HW than any console out there, that is, as soon as the amiga is released.
Coding for the amiga is not that difficult, even using a low end developer system.
As for 3D the amiga can do alot of that, the new warp3D along with mesa and miniGL can do alot.
Couple that with powerfull 3D HW and a fast PPC, then there is no stopping it.

To be honest, as it is now, the amiga would never even come close to competing with anything out there, this is only because amiga lacks the funding that other big companies have, Nintendo, MS and Sony.
But maybe the partnership with MS will do just that.

Anyway, now is the time to support the amiga, support developers and support the users.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: game_fan on November 17, 2002, 10:32:01 AM
Home computers (whether it be Mac, PC, Amiga, Linux Box) don`t have a great standing with video gaming at the moment.

I have worked at two computer stores for a longish period of time who stock and sales of new major title PC games were always very very poor compared to consoles, the majority of PC software sold was budget software and both stores had considered pulling out of the PC gaming market.

Consoles have taken over and sooner or later the line between computer and console will merge, for instance by the time the PS 3 comes out I wouldn`t be suprised if it offers Web Access, Some Kind of Office Suite and the few other applications that MOST home computer users use

If the Amiga was to succed as a games system again it would have to do something pretty special, as the PC gaming market is failing badly in the eyes of most retailers and another alternative is just not an option unless :-
A) The price of the system was cheap.
B) Original Games
C) Big Title Software Support.
D) Lots of buyers for the system.

I`d love for the Amiga to be a huge gaming system, but in the modern day world consoles are much much more popular and much more reliable and easy to use for gamers.

The Amiga was good as it could be programmed like a console (only having to support one set of chips) thats why it was huge.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: Step on November 17, 2002, 11:27:35 AM
Its hard to say really.
As I see it, the focus of game developers tend to shift from desktop computers to consoles from time to time, today we seem to have a strong market for console games despite their relatively high costs, eventually we might see the focus shift towards the desktop platforms again and perhaps then the Amiga can take a part of it.

As for titles, i think it is important to have titles not present on other platforms, but since most games get ported for finacial reasons, there is most often no titles to show off with, especially when it comes to Amiga.

To grab a big marketshare, i believe we need good quality games not avaible on other platforms, they also need to be cheaper than both consoles and PC games, an unlikely combination.

Perhaps there is a potential if developers within the Amiga community cooperate more, and more open source solutions become avaible, like 3D engines etc, that are of high quality.

Education is also an important part, online courses and material might boost the number of developers, aswell as titles.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: Rob on November 17, 2002, 02:16:37 PM
>Education is also an important part, online courses and material
>might boost the number of developers, as well as titles.

It would also be nice to see new books like the ones Bruce Smith used
to publish.  A new book which teaches you how to program for Amiga and
covers modern aspects of the OS including AHI and Warp3D would be
great for beginers.
For me nothing beats a book.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: on November 17, 2002, 03:24:22 PM
Quote


For me nothing beats a book



Not everyone likes learning via books. I am dyslexic and find reading a chore. Unless you can present the data for the Warp3D and AHI systems in the form of a rivveting Terry Pratchett novel I'm not likely to go near a book on the subject ;-)

Seriously though. Books are not everyones way of learning. Online courses (I am doing one in Network support at the moment) are flexible and useful to a broad range of people.

I'm sure all these ideas are good. They should be put to Amiga Inc. and Hyperion to see what we an get.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: Coder on November 17, 2002, 03:30:53 PM
@Rob

Quote
For me nothing beats a book.


Same for me Rob. I agree 100% on this with you.

Coder
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: Crumb on November 17, 2002, 04:42:47 PM
I don't think that the situation changes to the good old days, but at least it will be easier to see new ports because we will have a hardware powerful enough to move the graphics... :-)

The situation should improve slightly, because Hyperion has the best programmers to know what an OS needs to make game development easier. Ami-Input will be a good example.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: on November 17, 2002, 05:26:24 PM
With Models like the Xbox for example...wich is basically just a PC ...to make a new console they dont have to do anything but bundle together the latest cheap hardware and sell it as a 'new one'... I dont think many consoles stand a chance in the long run...not the 'custom' consoles....
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: Opi-Poi on November 17, 2002, 07:02:35 PM
Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing?

PERIOD!
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it
Post by: Lo on November 17, 2002, 07:18:21 PM
Quote
How many people do you know that run Windows "just for the games?"


  ME!  Er,  well, I'd like to when AOS4 comes out.
I'd like to know how many plan to only own A1/OS4,
& sell their PC.   I'm stuck with Emulation pkgs.
I'll need a bigger desk. *sigh*
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: Valan on November 17, 2002, 07:28:10 PM
The developers will not support yet another platform.

Amiga has a huge back catalogue of 2d games that woud be ideal for a PDA. Starglider, Rainbow Islands, Lemmings, Sensible Soccer, Pinball Prelude or Worms would be fantastic to be played through AA/DE.

IMHO Amiga Inc shoud be busy getting this material through to Microsoft to distribute.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: Valan on November 17, 2002, 07:29:43 PM
The developers will not support yet another platform.

Amiga has a huge back catalogue of 2d games that woud be ideal for a PDA. Starglider, Rainbow Islands, Lemmings, Sensible Soccer, Pinball Prelude or Worms would be fantastic to be played through AA/DE.

IMHO Amiga Inc shoud be busy getting this material through to Microsoft to distribute.
Title: the only way to make a company like Square to make Amiga games...
Post by: on November 17, 2002, 10:21:29 PM
is to put a gun to its president's head. Thay how indifferent these video game companies are. Not even a 64-cpu amiga will ever convince them computers are better than game consoles. :-x
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it
Post by: on November 17, 2002, 10:27:34 PM
PC Gaming is HUGE! ... tons of people use their computers JUST to play games.... Doom3 is incredible and it's on techtv constantly....
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: Rob on November 17, 2002, 11:53:33 PM
>Amiga has a huge back catalogue of 2d games that would be ideal for a
PDA.

They are not Amiga Inc's titles.  But software could be licensed and
recoded for AA.

Theres a british company that does this sort of thing for Gameboy
Advance.  One of their releases is Speedball 2.

I'm not sure how much licenses for these sort of games would be, but
I am sure it would be a lot less than Hyperion pay for PC ports.

Any enterprising Amigans with some capital and programming skills out
there?
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: Valan on November 18, 2002, 03:07:13 AM
Quote
They are not Amiga Inc's titles. But software could be licensed and recoded for AA.


Bill did say that the Microsoft deal had opened doors and helped others to get underway. I hope these are within those deals.

Such titles would make the PDA gaming look very attractive even along side the GBA.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it
Post by: Cymric on December 01, 2002, 01:58:45 AM
Quote

How many people do you know that run Windows "just for the games?"  

If I were an investor in AInc, you know what I would throw money into?  getting Team17 to start hacking away on a KILLER game.  Something that will look kick-ass on a Radeon 8500 or a Matrox Parhelia (these cards DO have untapped potential).  This game would ONLY be available on amiga, and it would make the gamer mags/sites drool.  


I dunno. To me the concept of 'killer game' sounds like 'killer application' which is a bit like the Holy Grail of any platform in existence. I also question your statement that the Radeon and the Matrox have untapped potential---untapped in the sense that modern games on other platforms don't draw it out. I can crank up screen resolution, object detail, environment physics and other things to such high levels that even the very heavy GeForce 4 in my PC begins to squirm.  

Back in 1989/1990, the hardware of the Amiga gave it an unprecedented cutting edge. If you wanted to do something special, chances were you could only do it (affordably) on the Amiga. That advantage is now lost. In other words, you shouldn't look for graphics or sound to make the killer game, unless it's something like a 3D-lasershow :-) . You need a marvellous new gaming concept---and that is very, very hard to find. And even then: if it is so innovative, it will be all over other platforms before you can blink. It's still a software concept, and there is no fundamental difference between an x86 and a PPC processor.

But one can still dream, of course ... ;-)
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it
Post by: KingTutt on December 01, 2002, 03:45:38 AM
Pc games were still inferior to Amiga, even well into the mid 90's. Even Doom wasn't a compelling enough reason to hail the PC as the next best thing. Amiga 1200 and above made Alienbreed 3d. This was also a FPS.

It wasn't until PCs came out with Quake and Quake 2 that PCs finally made gamers look up and listen to what PCs were headed into. This was later solidified when 3dfx and nVidia saw an untapped market for 3d software. The rest is history.

Amiga could have followed in much the same way. But it didn't have the financial means by that stage. Had it of been as strong as it was in the late 80s early 90s. It would still have held the bleeding edge in games even now!

The only way it can regain its foothold in this competetive world, is to slowly but surely make a name for itself again. Getting ol skool developers like Team 17 and Cinemaware is one approach. Another approach is to develop a rival handheld to the nintendo GBA! This would be much simpler to do. Seeing that the 15 yo tech would be easier to squeeze into a handheld packaging. Amiga already boasts at least a 5000 strong games library and most of it belongs to long defunct companies like Ocean.

Having said this, the means to get there are alot more cost competetive than what others may think. Just think for a moment. Most of the GBA titles are old 2d games from yesteryear, they are made in GBA native code, so essentially developers need to port their old gems to GBA. Amiga can compete in this area wonderfully. Their extensive library need only run on a native Amiga handheld machine and the rest is history. Games need only be packaged onto catridge and it will be read in native 1.3 or 2.0 format. And given that catridge solutions hold megabytes, amiga games like It came from the Desert being 3x880k will fit nicely.

Amiga handhelds can be launched bundled with several games on one catridge to lure the unassuming mass market. And since most games from defunct companies belong to the public domain. Amiga wil be the only other 2d game platform that will boast a plethora of games, cheap affordable games that rival the GBA and will be graphically superior, yet with less overhead.

I once played my A500 on my pocket TV and let me tell you the resolution is incredible, I couldnt take my eyes off Turrican. It was spendidly rendered and really took off when seen on such a petite screen.

Its a real mystery why Amiga inc havent thought of this already. They are sitting on a real treasure. Something most companies would kill for. Amiga is one of the only companies that has had games coded for a particular platform (A500) for the longest time. Spanning almost 10 years 85-95. Games from Bobble Bubble, Marble Madness to WALKER, Desert Strike and Superfrog of late.

There is your chance to regain the foothold. It couldnt be clearer. I say make it happen. And fast!
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it
Post by: odin on December 01, 2002, 05:48:42 AM
@KingTutt:

One minor detail: Amiga doesn't hold the copyright on ANY of these games :-(. And I think a LOT of the original master disks/source codes have been lost forever. Even IF the company still exists (and if it doesn't....who do you contact to get the sources? The author(s)? Where does he live? Does he still have mastercopies?).

It's a great idea...but impossible to realise.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: on December 01, 2002, 06:19:39 AM
I'd love to say yes but frankly I don't think that's gonna be possible. As someone said developing a game costs a lot of money, sometimes as much as a movie. There are certain sectors that could be tapped into, for example virtual reality, but that's not happening with OS4.x I strongly believe. Maybe an idea would be to go back to old styles, for example I hear all the time people missing good 2D platform games and today they're impossible to find (new games) so Amiga could concentrate on a genre.
Back then it was easier, a single person could make a great game, today's game consoles are more powerful than yesterday's SGI stations and millions of dollars are spent for development. Just look at the admittance price to E3 for one person: $300 sheesh!
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it
Post by: Valan on December 01, 2002, 06:20:39 AM
Another thing to consider is that Sony has done a fantastic job in selling the 'must be 3d' idea.

When the Playstation was first launched all the games had to be 3D. Psygnosis wanted to publish Lemmings for it as it was very popular but Sony forced them to do a 3d version. Remember Lemmings3d?

So I think there are othe genres of games to be designed, maybe not even 2d or 3d. The Amiga must be an easy(non expensive) development environment like in the past so that new game developers can use it.

Amiga Inc should setup an internet publishing program to enable new games to be purchased through the internet.

Just a thought
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: on December 01, 2002, 06:27:21 AM
Quote

mips_proc wrote:
With Models like the Xbox for example...wich is basically just a PC ...to make a new console they dont have to do anything but bundle together the latest cheap hardware and sell it as a 'new one'... I dont think many consoles stand a chance in the long run...not the 'custom' consoles....


Weren't you gone?
Let me tell you something, you probably have never even seen the Xbox. It's a PC as much as the PS2. They didn't put the latest cheap hardware inside. the GPU is better (by far) than the Emotion Engine and made especially for the Xbox by Nvidia, the CPU is a special version of the PIII and considering that the quality of the games is much higher than the one found on high-end PC's I'd say they did a pretty good job.
I don't want this to turn into an Xbox thread, but I don't like when people go around telling lies, be that against Amiga, Microsoft, Nasa, or Whatever & Co.
I've owned an Xbox for almost a year, I've been an active betatester for Xbox Live and with that console I found the pleasure of playing again, that I had lost since the old Amiga days. I also played games (big titles) on the PS2 and laughed at their quality. The PS2 is a console that I wanted very much before it came out and then never convinced me enough to buy it. I'm less and less convinced.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it
Post by: KingTutt on December 02, 2002, 03:35:23 AM
@odin

Planetemu (http://www.planetemu.net) has about a 5000+ library of ADF/ADZ files. From popular appz like Amos to games like Rocket Ranger.

Yes I see your logic. Some, if not a majority of these titles are lost forever. Although since many people have released the ADF/ADZ of titles of some of these supposed lost titles, Amiga Inc then have the option of doing a native HW Amiga handheld (with all its custom chips), or a stripped down cost effective x86 platform that runs an emulated Amiga environment in the hardware, not unlike WinUAE.

I just see the potential of such a system. I won't go into the politics of it all. But yes I can see some of the hiccups that may stop such a dream from occuring. Politics aside, wouldn't it be wonderful to own a handheld that could outdo GBA in every way (which IMO is a glorified paperweight, with only the nintendo logo stamped onto it to secure more sales)

GBA would quiver in its boots, if it were announced that the sleeping giant of the 80's (Amiga) were to get into the handheld market, sporting their own product. Given the Amiga would have to overcome political hurdles first, if done, it would boast a games library like no other.

Here is an ol skool Amiga games maker, back in the scene and making GBA titles. For you ol skool Amiga gamers, you wouldn't believe who.

 Click here to find out  (http://www.cinemaware.com)

 And for their forum  (http://www.cinemaware.com/forum)
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it
Post by: WalkernyRanger on December 02, 2002, 04:04:57 AM
I doubt GBA or Nintendo is too worried about Amiga.  The Gameboy system is the best selling game system ever, by far.  Many times more that PS, PS2, Xbox, or any others.  I too am not very fond of the system, and never even play mine.   However as we Amigans know, the best systems don't always win.  Amiga is hardly a sleeping giant.  We couldn't even get 2500 people to order the $50 coupons.

I love the Amiga.  But lets take it one step at a time.  If Amiga is to become a major player in the game industry again, it will be after many years of solid system sales.  They will need to show they have a market to convince companies to spend their time and money developing for them.  

Look at Apple, they still can't get the Macintosh to be taken as a serious game machine.  And they have the latest Processors, OS, video cards, and much better sales than Amiga will see in the near future.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: gary_c on December 02, 2002, 04:39:10 AM
As for Amiga, Inc. itself trying to rally game developers to code for AmigaOS, the company is kind of at cross purposes on this issue, with both the proprietary AmigaOS (loosely defined, with Hyperion actually in charge at this stage) and the cross-platform AmigaAnywhere as products. In view of the fact that the potential AmigaAnywhere market is many orders of magnitude larger than the AOS market, I imagine Amiga, Inc. will continue to put its efforts into getting games and other apps written for AmigaAnywhere. If and when AmigaDE/Anywhere merges into or is hosted by AOS, then the Amiga platform will get these games, too. But I don't see how it'd be in Amiga's best interests to push for AmigaOS content ahead of AmigaAnywhere.

Really, the Amiga platform would have brighter prospects if Amiga, Inc. itself wasn't fielding a competitor in the form of AmigaAnywhere. I know we like to think of AmigaAnywhere eventually bringing content to the proprietary platform, but the other side of the coin is that people wanting that content can just enjoy it on their current (non-Amiga) platforms; and developers who do hear the Amiga appeal can write for the largest possible audience by targetting AmigaAnywhere.

Any apps (including games) written for the AmigaOS platform will be labors of love, in my opinion, not commercially motivated endeavors. Of course, given the sales record of AmigaAnywhere content so far, the Amiga platform may indeed turn out to be the richest market for Amiga, Inc., which is sad indeed.

-- gary_c
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it
Post by: KingTutt on December 02, 2002, 05:26:37 AM
@WalkernyRanger

I recognise the incredible hurdles that Amiga would face, if they would to get a portable platform up off the ground. But given that nintendo GBA is the only player in the handheld entertainment industry. Its a pot of gold begging to be exploited.

Amiga would have to sport A500 titles only, if they were to release one. I'm sure that trying to make a handheld A500 that was also AGA compliant would be overkill. ECS/OCS compliant software are more than enough to shoulder some might into this fledgling industry.

Can you imagine the potential of a GBA sized A500 sporting an RGB pocket TV display? No need for some crummy backlit LCD technology and the resolution and picture quality would leave the GBA in its wake. The plethora of games alone is enough to scare off even the most unscrupulous companies like M$ and Sony of ever wanting part of the pie.

I mean c'mon people, how many of you would love to get your hands on such a system for maybe $100US. Being able to ride the train or bus while playing a game of Turrican, Alienbreed, RickDangerous or Superfrog. I sure would.

This would be a sure way of securing a name for Amiga once more, to a mass audience. Directly competing with GBA would at least make headlines in the short term. The Amiga name is still recognizable by many in the industry. It could be the stepping stone needed so much right now to launch any future products or Amiga systems with a revitalised customer base and strong consumer confidence in the Amiga name once more.

It may be the shot in the arm Amiga so badly needs.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it
Post by: gary_c on December 02, 2002, 06:49:57 AM
There's already a backlit-display GameBoy Advance in development, so Amiga wouldn't have an advantage here, since the new GBA will hit the shelves before anything Amiga (/partners) could produce. Also, a number of old Amiga games are already being ported to GBA (Cinemaware, etc.) so, if you had the rights to an old game like these, which would you rather target, a gazillion GameBoys -- a proven platform -- or a fledgling Amiga handheld with arguably poorer specs?

Keep in mind that Amiga, Inc. itself doesn't hold the rights to any of those old games. And in fact the original source code has been lost in many cases.

And we're also back to the issue of AmigaOS or AmigaAnywhere for projects like this. I'm sure whenever anybody at Amiga, Inc. thinks of "handheld," they think of AmigaAnywhere. It's custom-made for this kind of application, whereas AmigaOS isn't. So, yes, there could be "Amiga" handhelds at some point in the future, but they'll have AmigaAnywhere software and so won't benefit the AmigaOS desktop at all other than, perhaps, keeping the Amiga, Inc. phone lines paid for.

-- gary_c (not really intending to be the voice of doom)
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: chipper701 on December 02, 2002, 11:29:48 AM
A handheld Amiga or sorts did come out. Really a great system too. It was called the Atari Lynx.

Now if Amiga inc. or one of the other companies produce a handheld Amiga I know I would buy it. I have several friends that would too.
The Gameboy advance is not easy to look at. Even if backlit, the screen is just too small.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: KingTutt on December 02, 2002, 11:09:16 PM
@gary_c
I hear ya pal. Having said that there would still be alot of Amiga users that would jump at the chance of owning such a handheld.

Aside from the legal and technical issues of reproducing the games. I understand that the source code would be a major stumbling block. Unless Amiga somehow licence the WinUAE tech to emulate the A500, it could just do it. Of course the copyright infringements would have to be addressed beforehand. Game makers like Cinemaware, Psygnosis, Infogrames, Interplay are still corporate entities in their own right. And may have an issue with re-released Amiga games. But I'm sure they won't object to sharing in the royalties. I know for a fact that one of the Cinemaware developers agrees (upon a brief irc chat) Most know that some of Cinemaware's greatest work was realised on the Amiga platform.

I still think a pocket TV RGB screen has superior resolution to any backlit LCD tech.

@chipper701
No shit! It really strains the old eyes at the very least. I believe the GBA gfx are good but their code has too much overhead. Some of the games like Defender of the Crown is 4mb, On the Amiga it was more like 2x880k (1.76mb) And looked way superior (even after 15yrs wow!).

Try playing DOTC with WinUAE and you'll see how much better the A500 version is than this latest remaster for the GBA. Just a testament on how the Amiga gfx still shine to this very day!
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: odin on December 02, 2002, 11:22:21 PM
@KingTutt:
Game makers like Cinemaware, Psygnosis, Infogrames, Interplay are still corporate entities in their own right.

Actually Psygnosis is completely assimilated by Sony. :-(.

Might wanna check out psygnosis.org (http://www.psygnosis.org). Nice site, bit empty but still.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: Valan on December 03, 2002, 12:29:33 AM
@Odin
I thought I read that Psygnosis were buying themselves back from Sony?
Maybe I am wrong. Anyway the link you gave is not affiliated to Psygnosis or Sony. It also lists them seperately.

I think a back catalogue of Amiga games in any form is such an obvious way to go for a handheld console, PDA or phone. It is not that the Amiga community would buy them but they are simply attractive to any gamer.

Even Rares old back catalogue of Spectrum games would look amazing on a PDA or Phone. How about Ataris games?

I think once a delivery method is available like AA then we can see all these games being released again.

When we get AOS5 then the AA SDK should be pre installed to incourage easy development. History has shown this is the way to get things really happening.

Valan
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: KingTutt on December 03, 2002, 01:19:43 AM
I couldnt agree more. Amiga games on handheld aren't just attractive to the Amiga community, already familiar with the classic titles, but also the uninitiated. And everyone knows that the catalogue of amiga games are nothing short of phenomenol. I mean, cmon you have almost 10yrs of Amiga titles (85-95) to choose from. Something few companies can boast. (and all written for the A500 platform - truly remarkable stuff)

It would only take a few dozen of the very best Amiga has to offer to offset the balance of power in the market, which is held primarily by Nintendo. Of course the politics and the technical feasibility in having such a hendheld, is a different matter altogether.

I strongly believe an emulated environment with a pocket TV style display is the way to go. A move into the handheld market can boost sales and bolster product & market appeal in a way the OS4 and A1 can only dream of doing.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: Marky_D_Sahd on December 03, 2002, 01:25:51 AM
Hmm.  It seems to me that ClickBoom were advertising that they held the rights (or licences) to the Cinemaware catalog.  You know, the Amiga game people.

Who are you guys?  I don't think I know you!
Back in the Wayback Time, there were a lot of big name, professional game companies like Sega and Midway producing games for consoles.  But that's not where Amiga games came from.

Amiga games came from the same place as the demo scene.  People found that the Amiga was easy to code for and began to do it.  Yes, games are harder today.  Yes, we have tools to make it easier today (Although some of the old "Put-em-together-youself-all-inclusive game bunles were fun).  Remember Vulcan?  Two Amiga zealots.  How 'bout Bitmap Bros. and Team 17?  All these guys started on Amiga and created smashing games for it in their basements, so to speak.  And DON'T forget ClickBoom.  They haven't always been the most stable guys, but they make good games.  Oh, and Hyperion, porting over really cool stuff and making it run better!  
Amigas have always been about little guys making it work.  If it still is, Amiga will regain it's game footing, and will thrive, in time.  If not, then it doesn't matter.  Amigas won't be around that long.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: KingTutt on December 03, 2002, 03:02:42 AM
Who could ever forget Team 17, for such exciting titles as AlienBreed or Worms. And Bitmap Bros for my all time fav, Magic Pockets. These were the real innovators in computer gaming circles.

If OS4 and A1 are to survive, it will need pioneers like these. Cinemaware is also back, perhaps they will look at the A1 as a potential platform for its future titles? One can only hope.

The ledgendary Cinemaware returns (http://www.cinemaware.com)

Their forum beckons you fellow Amigans (http://www.cinemaware.com/forum)
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: odin on December 03, 2002, 03:23:46 AM
Quote

Valan wrote:
@Odin
I thought I read that Psygnosis were buying themselves back from Sony?
Maybe I am wrong. Anyway the link you gave is not affiliated to Psygnosis or Sony. It also lists them seperately.

Valan


Yes I know...it's an *.ORG site...so that usually is a not an official site =). It's just a fansite. But if you do go to psygnosis.com you end up at a Sony PSX site.

It would be great news if Psyg would buy itself out! But if you read the stories on Psygnosis.org it becomes clear that the original team is pretty cut up to pieces. (But that info is 2 years old).
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: blobrana on December 03, 2002, 03:27:57 AM
Have a jaunt over to this old site

(if you havent already!)

http://nthdimension.emuunlim.com/ (http://nthdimension.emuunlim.com/)

It brought a tear to my eye, anyway

 :-D
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: odin on December 03, 2002, 03:52:16 AM
@blob:

That site rocks! Might have a go at making my coverdisk collection immortal, those disks aren't gonna live for ever!.
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it
Post by: Marky_D_Sahd on December 03, 2002, 03:55:40 AM
KingTutt:

WOW!  I like registered right now!  And there's a place at the bottom to register as an Amiga owner!!
Everyone here should register (once) and let 'em know we're interested!
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it's footing in games?
Post by: Glaucus on December 03, 2002, 04:11:53 AM
Well...  It would be nice if we could get a few left over table scraps from the PC market.  Some ports would be nice (battlefield 1942 would be sweat).  But here's the catch:  We need a DirectX API and an OpenGL API.  Once that is in place we can then think about porting games.

But will the Amiga be the god of computer gaming?  Probably never.  Even if you'd sink $2billion into the Amiga games market it still wouldn't hold a candle to what's available for the PC.  If you want to play games buy a PC!

  - Mike
Title: Re: Will the Amiga ever regain it
Post by: KingTutt on December 03, 2002, 04:26:22 AM
Quote

Marky_D_Sahd wrote:
KingTutt:

WOW!  I like registered right now!  And there's a place at the bottom to register as an Amiga owner!!
Everyone here should register (once) and let 'em know we're interested!


Good to hear buddy. Yeah we really need all you Amigans support. To show Cinemaware we still love them after all these years. God only knows how much Cinemaware still loves its favourite little platform which made it renowned among the gaming elite of yesteryear.

And yeah they could really use all the support they can get. You guys will probably be happy to know that they intend on remastering almost every game title they released on the A500 platform. I think they should also remaster for the A1 but heres one for hoping. As for their long term projects, they are remaking (yes you heard right), the original Defender of the Crown with todays 3d gfx.

So for all you Amigans that have fond memories of Cinemaware, please post your thoughts and words of support on their forum (http://cinemaware.com/forum) they have some members of their dev team that will answer every question you may have for future projects. So its a fantastic opportunity to voice your thoughts directly at the Cinemaware team, Not o mention read up on a little Amiga history through the eyes of Cinemaware. Cheerio!