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Offline Kronos

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2002, 07:06:53 PM »
Quote
Check out some dual g4 500mhz vs dual P3 1ghz photoshop benchmarks .... the G4 trashes the p3.


Photoshop-MAC uses Altivec while Photoshop-Win doesn't
use MMX or 3dNOW! so thats not fair.
Photoshop is the only positive benchmark for the G4.

Now what will we get for the Amiga ?

No Altivec and definitly no Photoshop !

Quote
The only way to get serious benchmarks for ppc vs x86 is if you run them on exactly the same platform ,


Well then run some linux-benches on the AOne and 600mhz/P3.

X86 is faster than PPC (now), but that doesn't mean it must be
the right choice for AOS.
The only thing that should be clear is that simply closing our
eyes to this realitiy won't help us when we try to convince
new users.

This could be done by this:" Want a new computer thats easy
to use,silent boots in less thab 30 seconds and can be turned
off immedialty ?"
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline redrumloa

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2002, 07:09:52 PM »
Quote
i agree, Aone should have used SCSI instead of that lousy IDE crap, which also decrease the overall perfomance....  


Drivers for scsi PCI adapters will be available.

No different than an A4000 IMO, just a much better IDE as standard.
Someone has to state the obvious and that someone is me!
 

Offline AmigaMac

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2002, 07:16:47 PM »
MHz isn't an issue and we all know that Intel's chips are overclocked for marketing purposes... x86 is slower than PPC clock for clock and it's 'SIMD' implementation is even worse.  Besides Amiga doesn't need to worry about clockspeed as much since they have one of the lightest and fastest OSes around. I think the last thing that Amiga should think about is the x86 world (except for AmigaDE). x86 is a boring and diluted market governed by Microsoft and Intel... Amiga wouldn't last long toying with the Darkside of life. The PowerPC technology is on fertile ground now, whereas x86 is getting long in the tooth and has a unpredictable future ahead. I think Amiga Inc. made an excellent decision to go PPC and that the Amiga community will reap the benefits of PowerPC technology in the near future... just sit back, relax and enjoy the ride.
 

Offline Insanity

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2002, 07:19:01 PM »
Quote
Drivers for scsi PCI adapters will be available.


Problem :
PCI 32 bit does not have sufficent speed to work a u160 adaptec card.
which needs a pci 64 bit slot to function att full speed.

I didn't see any 64 bit slot on the amigaone.

solution: ???
/Insanity[RoX]
 

Offline Kronos

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2002, 07:20:11 PM »
Quote
The PowerPC technology is on fertile ground now,


That has been said for the last 5 years and still they fall further behind.

Quote
The PowerPC technology is on fertile ground now, whereas x86 is getting long in the tooth and has a unpredictable future ahead.


That most have been in the rumour-box for the last 15 years.

[ Edited by Kronos on 2002/5/3 18:21:03 ]
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline AmigaMac

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2002, 07:24:18 PM »
IBM's G3 (contrary to popular belief) is tailored for both Embedded and Desktop implementations. IBM does want to stick it out with the G3 line longer than Motorola, since Moto is pushing for the G5. Better technology is yet to come for the PowerPC technology as you can see here;

http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20011115S0052
http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20011115S0055
http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG19991108S0039

The PCI stuff will be replaced since it was a slow bottleneck tech since day one!
 

Offline AmigaMac

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2002, 07:25:31 PM »
"That has been said for the last 5 years and still they fall further behind."

Only in clockspeed, not performance!
 

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2002, 07:31:03 PM »
Quote
Well then run some linux-benches on the AOne and 600mhz/P3.


still wouldn`t work , to do a fair test you would need :

1 . a mother board that can take both x86 and ppc , we`re benchmarking the cpu not the mobo here after all.

2. a benchmark the runs binary unchanged between cpu's and has no bias towards either. As a decent compiler can make all the difference in benchmarks.

as you see it isn't possible to compair via benchmarks fairly when it comes to ppc Vs. x86.

BTw . I have also seen G3 vs x86 of the same clock photoshop benchmarks and the g3 trashed the x86 again ( not so much tho ) and a real life benchmark here ... when i did work experience at a newmedia company ... really old g3 upgraded mac one side , p3 ghz machine the other , the g3 was rendering images like fire and the p3 was atleast 10 frames behind. It was lightwave IIRC but i`m not sure .the mac smoked at mame tho :D
 

Offline kubyx

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2002, 07:42:38 PM »
1Ghz G4 = 2Ghz+ when it comes to processing power.

You gotta realize x86 is NOT all that good; it's slow, and unoptimized, meaning even though we have 1.7Ghz AMD CPU's and 2.xGhz Intel CPU's neither one is running at true Ghz speeds.

Also, if you did some research you'd find that Mac's have almost the same games, and same amount of games, that PC's do.

This reply is completely un-biased, as I am an AMD XP 2100+ (x86) PC user.
Amiga Today - http://www.amigatoday.com

Amiga A1200, Blizzard 1260 060@50Mhz, 32mb Fast Ram, 250Meg hard drive, Squirrel SCSI, 4x CD-ROM, Magnvox 80 column monitor, ZOOM 56k modem, Amiga OS 3.5
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2002, 08:23:43 PM »
This is a cut and paste of a post I made on another topic, but it is strangely relavent:

Motorola have been planning to "kill" the PPC series for a while now (by Kill I mean give over exclusive rights to Apple). It's been no secret in the industry. It was, IMHO, a very unwise decision to choose the PPC simply for this reason.

Compared to AMD, for example, Motorola will always be a few steps behind, they don't have market forces on their side. ARM have stolen the embeded market and the x86 has stolen the desktop market.
It doesn't matter if a PPC is more powerful, at the same clock speed, than an x86. AMD and Intel can always make their chips run faster and can produce them inquantity. The x86 gets constant revision throughout it's life cycle (pushing performance up daily), the PPC only gets an upgrade once every 6 months or so.
It is important to remember that when a company like AMD release a chip, they keep redesiging it!! if you buy an Athlon one month and then you buy another one a few months down the line, you get a quite different chip with new technology!
This can be seen in the Intel P4, the first chips sucked ass, but now they have seen where improvemnts need to be made and implemented them to make the chip better (the P4 still sucks though :-) ). Motorola simple don't have a big enough market to keep this sort of constant development going. The x86 chips get faster because of newer technology, not because someone puts a faster crystal on. The 600Mhz Athlon and the 1.8Ghz Athlon run at the same themperature!!!! Run a G4 700Mhz at
1Ghz and you need some serious cooling upgrade.

IBM do make a PPC series of chip, but it is really expensive for the performance, and IMHO it is not really suited to the desktop. The IBM engineers have been pushing great speeds out of these chips but they have not been able to produce them in any significant quantity.

I think it is important to remember that Amiga Corp. and apple chose the 68k because it was the fastest thing around for the price. I think Amiga Inc. should remember that.

It would have been great if Motorola had continued the 68K, like Intel did with the x86. By now the two chips would have been almost indentical anyway!!!* But Motorola didn't have a big enough market to do that and teamed up with IBM etc to make the PowerPC chips instead, which in theory would have allowed for a bigger market and allowed them to jump over the x86 emulation stage. But the PPC did not take off, maybe a more powerful 68k would have done? Isn't hindsight great  

Apple are very lucky, they have their own CPU which they can control, but they are never going to be able to beat the x86 chips with the PPC, IMHO!

*I have spent a long time thinking about the evolution of the 68k, Motorola would have added a simd unit (maybe even Altivec?). Then they would have continued with the 060 RISC core and, then culled more of the less usefull instuctions and then added a few newer instructions (conditional moves etc...) to allow better branch prediction. Then the bus interface would have been changed to allow better cache and multiprocessor support. The RISC core would have grown lots of registers, to allow register renaming and out of order execution. The chip would be fully super scalar and super pipelined. As you can see, now the intenals of the chip would look just like an Athlon, but with the external instruction set based on the 68K and not the x86, and it would be big endien.

We all hate the x86 legacy, but it's time to face facts, the modern x86 is actually a great lump of silicon and very cheap to buy. Once real mode is switched off, the chip is great. The only thing bad is that motherboard manufactures still insist on using the IBM-PC BIOS!?!?!? I've been working on putting an AROS kernel in place of the BIOS so that a standard PC mobo would boot directly into intuition in 3 seconds (no more black and white text based BIOS screen), it's fun but I lack the technical knowledge about PC Chipsets to progress at any speed. But it really looks good to see!

Ok, my rant is over... you can get back to eating your lunch now

Remember that internally, a 600Mhz PPC and a 600Mhz Athlon don't look very different!!! Simply becuase to run a chip at such speeds, there is only one way to do it. I will grant  you that the die size of the Athlon is bit bigger, but the Athlon is also a lot cheaper so that doesn't matter in the slightest!!!!

Oh, and to say that the modern x86 (eg Athlon) is unoptimised and inefficient is blatent FUD!!! I suggest you get yourself a good book on cpu design, and read it.
I already stated that the worst thing about the x86 is the archaic "IBM-PC BIOS" (which no OS other than MSDOS and Windoze9x uses anyway...), but that is flashable!!!! I've been looking at the OpenBIOS and LinuxBIOS projects as to how AROS can replace the BIOS. It's hard but not impossible, and great to see.

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2002, 08:26:19 PM »
ive been hearing that for years from people....
when is it true ghz speeds?.... when Alpha  hit 1ghz was it 1ghz? when G4 did was it 1ghz?..

apperantly  you dont believe clock speeds excist?..
granted they dont mean everything...and granted most people reading this believe 100% that the  m68040@25mhz 3.5mflops is better then the P4@2.4ghz aprox  3Gflops.....but does that mean that the Gflops arent Gflops because a 'peecee' did it?....i know that its easy to hate PC"s...because their cheap..because they generally run Windows(an OS you hate because of M$) or Linux(an OS you hate because its hard to use) or BeOS(an OS you hate because it wasnt whatever you wanted).....but i see it this way...a microprocessor is a microprocessor...
the A1 boards will use AGP/PCI anyway...so why hinder things by useing PPC if PPC is going to be slower and cost more....
From what i read PPC wont be around in the desktop in 3 years....I dont hate PPC....PPC is good quality chip codeing for PPC is much more easy  then x86...but none of that will matter if it costs more money and performs less...i care about Amiga...not about my personal bias toward a CPU wich in the end wont make a differance one way or the other except in price.
If amiga can run on so little resources why not make it 'ultra' cheap....use a Cyrix or Transmeta chip...make it low power..cool..and cheap ...so everyone can afford it ...and thus possibly gain intrest...if  it uses low powerd transmeta cpu..and runs fast...and keyword 'is cheap' wont it stand more of a chance in the end?....
i just dont see the attachment to PPC...ive owned Amiga 1200's 4000's and even a 3000....i never went the route of getting the PPC upgrade because it was over 1000$...for a 233mhz CPU...wich is rediculis...
 

Offline Jose

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2002, 08:29:36 PM »
Please no x86! I think both parties expressed their point of view.
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Offline Hattig

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #56 on: May 03, 2002, 08:46:22 PM »
Blah blah blah.

Quote
Just because the Intel/AMD cpu runs at 3 times the clock speed, does not make it 3 times faster


No, actually in terms of IPC, the G3, original Athlon and PIII are pretty close, and the current Athlon outstrips it and the G4 by quite a reasonable margin. On a per-clock basis. SPEC results and other many other benchmarks show this.

Quote
I have seen benchamrks of a G4/700 against a P4/2GHz, and the difference wasn't so great in favour of the P4


What software? Photoshop? Done by who? Apple?

Basically, the G4's saving grace is Altivec. And not all applications can benefit from it.

Quote
Thats like comparing a 600Mhz AMD to a 1.6GHz P4 and saying "look how crap this AMD is


Heh, the P4 is a crap processor in terms of per-clock IPC at the moment. It is improving though, as Intel tweak the processor to be more like the processor they wanted to release originally. As a 1GHz Athlon will beat a 1.6GHz P4 in many tests, a 600MHz Athlon won't fare too badly - for a 3 year old processor!

Strange, how people assume that because the 68060 was better than the ORIGINAL Pentium clock-for-clock, that they assume that it is better than the PII, PIII, P4, Athlon and anything else, even though these chips have been VASTLY improved over the original Pentium. The G3/G4 are good, but they are not *that* good.

Still, after all that, I am happy that AmigaOS 4 will be a PPC operating system. Just because I see the PPC as being "cleaner", and better designed. Doesn't change the fact that modern x86 chips are literally a miracle of design.
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2002, 08:52:53 PM »
Quote
i agree, Aone should have used SCSI instead of that lousy IDE crap, which also decrease the overall perfomance....


IDE performs roughly the same as SCSI at a much cheaper price point now.

Yes, the design is pretty crap, it isn't as good as SCSI either. However it works well, it works quickly, and it is cheap.

And it is integrated into the southbridge so you don't use up another PCI slot putting it onto the motherboard (because SCSI chips are PCI devices, so adding a PCI device will remove a usable slot from the motherboard design).

Don't force people to pay more for their boards in order for them to have to pay more for their hard drives and other storage media.

http://www.oreillynet.com/lpt/a//network/2002/04/26/nettap.html

Graham
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2002, 08:56:54 PM »
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Check out some dual g4 500mhz vs dual P3 1ghz photoshop benchmarks ...


So does MacOS come with the AmigaOne, and thus Photoshop?

Does the AmigaOne use the G4?

Is Photoshop a valid benchmark considering that it is tweaked to get the most out of the G4, but has no enhancements for the PIII?

Quote
The only way to get serious benchmarks for ppc vs x86 is if you run them on exactly the same platform , hardware and software


The tests that compare PPC using the same platform, software and (as close as possible) hardware always tend to show the x86 beating the PPC. Clock for clock. Darn it eh?

Graham
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #59 from previous page: May 03, 2002, 08:59:56 PM »
Quote
PCI 32 bit does not have sufficent speed to work a u160 adaptec card.
which needs a pci 64 bit slot to function att full speed.


Well if you are going to make a RAID 5 array then yes, you have a problem. Even then you could use a 32-bit 33MHz SCSI RAID card like the Mylex Accelleraid 170 without any problems, even if you are maxing out the PCI bus a lot.

If you are sticking a couple of hard drives and a SCSI drive on your SCSI card, then you will not be maxing out that 160MB/s - you will get around 60MB/s max on the fastest 15,000RPM Cheetah hard drives.

Graham