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Offline ksk

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #14 from previous page: April 28, 2003, 06:46:05 AM »
I'm almost certain that the 1.3Ghz card will be a single CPU card without L3 cache.

But it is almost as sure that it does not become available during this year... we can hope but the economies are against it.

In the end, time (&Alan R.) will tell.  :)


Also a dual  750FX @ 1Ghz would be a very interesting (fanless?) product...
 

Offline mikeymike

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2003, 12:18:35 PM »
@ jeffimix

Quote
I always thought that you could write the OS to take full advantage of the two processors, so that anything written nto hardware banging, but through the OS, would take advantage as transferred.


Basically yes (but also take into account what I said previously in this thread about applications support).  Programs hitting the hardware should be a thing of the past with a decent operating system behind the wheel anyway.  You can hardly have an SMP-capable operating system and still allow applications to hit the hardware directly.

Quote

Second, I know that two 800Mhz processors Don't = a 1600Mhz processor, they have overhead, which is what stops them, correct?


Not sure what you mean by that.  I'll try to explain a little further.  Assuming that the 1600MHz processor and the 800MHz processor are made by the same people the same way, and one is simply clocked twice as fast as the other (very theoretical scenario), then you'll have the rough equivalent of the following comparison:

There's a piece of work to be done, and you have the following choices: You can give it to one person, who is especially experienced at doing that work quickly (the equivalent of the 1.6GHz processor), or you can give it to two people who aren't so used to doing it, so if only one of them were doing it, they'd do it at half the pace of the faster person.  Now, in the real-life situation, there are many factors involved in finding out which party would get the work done quicker.  When two people are working together on something, there can be many bottlenecks to getting the work done quicker.  There might only be one pen that they can use, so one would have to wait till the other is finished, as an example :-)

In computing terms, it would be like for example, you having a task, say for example, you have a UNIX-variant box, and you want to compile a hefty program from its source, say for example Mozilla.  Now obviously CPU is an important part of the equation to compiling the source quicker, but the process of compiling requires a lot of reading and writing to disk, lots of small files, which means that much of the time the CPU is going to be waiting for that to happen.  In which case, a dual CPU machine isn't going to be of much benefit.  It's better to improve the compiling process, so that you read a chunk of files from disk, write the compiled chunk to memory, and when you have a reasonable size chunk to write back to disk again, then write it.

Hard disks may be cheap nowadays, and they may claim to be able to do 50MB/sec, but comparing them to the capabilities of RAM throughput or CPU throughput, they're like a modem compared to broadband.  *Very* high latency on reading small files, that is why something like WIndows takes much the same time to boot even when you get a faster hard disk.  It's only when you do a very drastic comparison, say a pre-UDMA hard disk to post UDMA100, that you'd see the kind of drastic difference you'd prefer to see when reading and writing small files.  Look at 99% of the files used by the operating system, even with a bloater like Windows 2000, they're a few megs maximum size, quite frankly, who cares if you can read off a 50MB file in one second, when say ten 5MB files takes you much much longer.  Which is why RAID striping makes such a huge difference.
 

Offline mikeymike

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2003, 12:24:04 PM »
I wonder whether it might be an idea if Eyetech were only to sell certain speeds of CPU in dual CPU module form, so something like:

modules for sale:

1x G4 800MHz
2x G4 800MHz
2x G4 1.3GHz
1x G4 1.8GHz
2x G4 2.2GHz
1x G4 2.6GHz

etc

Might work, but what would I know about chip sales :-)
 

Offline olegil

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2003, 01:42:10 PM »
Quote

mikeymike wrote:
I wonder whether it might be an idea if Eyetech were only to sell certain speeds of CPU in dual CPU module form, so something like:

modules for sale:

1x G4 800MHz
2x G4 800MHz
2x G4 1.3GHz
1x G4 1.8GHz
2x G4 2.2GHz
1x G4 2.6GHz

etc

Might work, but what would I know about chip sales :-)



Ehm, so far I've seen these speeds mentioned by Alan:
1x 800
2x800
1x1300

I would say that means Alan is _way_ ahead of you here.
Basically, since the different speeds of G4 means different chips with different pinouts (unlike for instance a P4, which usually stays the same for a bit longer) it doesn't make sense selling incremental speedups like you do with x86. Because you need a new CPU board for like every other speedup, it's much better to wait another month and skip a generation :-)

That's what I think, anyway. With a headache and just looking in at the forums while trying to do some work. I could be wrong, but I don't care :-)
 

Offline BADHead

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2003, 02:00:51 PM »
there was an article in micromart that dual g4
should out by chistmas and they where bench testing a A1XE

((This year) I THINK ?)
Crazy on a ship of fools  :whack:
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2003, 02:59:58 PM »
I think that the poor memory bandwith of the Articia will be a major bottleneck in a dual 1.3 GHz G4 system. Or am I wrong?
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline mikeymike

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2003, 03:35:05 PM »
[Re: 133MHz FSB on the XE] Not a *major* bottleneck, but DDR would make the XE a significantly better performer.
 

Offline Bodie

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2003, 03:38:11 PM »
Although I'm not all that technically savvy, I found these benchmarks interesting.
 

Offline mikeymike

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2003, 10:37:44 PM »
Ok, crap implementations of DDR aside, normally it would make a difference :-)

That's not an issue with the processor, but with the chipset or maybe even the RAM.
 

Offline Hammer

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2003, 12:45:01 AM »
Quote

mikeymike wrote:
Ok, crap implementations of DDR aside, normally it would make a difference :-)

PowerPC G3/G4’s FSB design (& it's interface to the outside world) is not aware of DDR technologies (e.g. not like the DEC Alpha AXP/AMD Athlon XP’s EV6 designs). The gain is not as big as in DDR X86/Alpha powered systems.
Amiga 1200 PiStorm32-Emu68-RPI 4B 4GB.
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB, RTX 4080 16 GB PC.
 

Offline mikeymike

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2003, 08:35:44 AM »
yep, you're totally right.  I've been posting too late at night again :-)
 

Offline ksk

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2003, 09:43:20 AM »
Quote

Bodie wrote:
Although I'm not all that technically savvy, I found these benchmarks interesting.


Right, current PPC's does not gain (any) extra speed by using DDR RAM.

It seems that also as L3 cache DDR does not perform much/any better than SDR L3 cache on PPCs.

Only in some ultimately heavy duty use the DDR system RAM has any signifficant effect on PPC systems (simutaneous high PCI&AGP&CPU&HDD&Firewire etc. traffic).

The "killer feature" of DDR for G4/G3 machines could at some point be the lower price of the memory.

PPC970 CPU will be able to fully utilize the DDR memory, but I think it takes a year or two before PPC970 exists inside Amigas.

...

It seems that the L3 cache does not give any huge speed improvement on 800Mhz A1G4XE machines. But for 1.3Ghz system (using 133MHz FSB) it should give big boost (~20%), same (or even more so) in high Mhz dual CPU configuration.
 

Offline olegil

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2003, 12:04:13 PM »
I think this is a case of "we're all right, but we're not talking about the same thing"

The Articia S isn't that bad on memory access. It's using SDR, after all. I've seen worse.

A G4 can't utilize DDR, because it's got a 133MHz FSB.
However, two G4 CPUs and an AGP card and a couple of PCI cards could very well manage to fill up the available bandwidth without much trouble. But you would surely need a DDR, AGP4x, PCI-X and dual CPU-capable northbridge. Where can you get that for PPC,  I hear you say. Well, we're kinda waiting for MAI to get the Articia P released, and it has all this. I was going to write that it's too bad Motorola doesn't support 166MHz bus, but it seems from an article about the 970 I just read that Macs are sold with 167MHz FSB, so I dropped that. If this is indeed correct, you could see an Amiga using single G3/G4 or dual G4 processorswith AGP4x, PCI-X and PC2700 memory. It all boils down to MAI getting some wheels in motion, I guess... Hopefully they've managed to get a lot of the fixes done to the Articia S into the P.

Now, where does the 970 fit in? It doesn't, I'm afraid. It uses two 900MHz 32bit front side busses (one for reads and one for writes), and this needs a rather special northbridge. I have yet to see anyone claim to support this yet. I wish IBM was more like Intel in this regard. New CPU -> New chipset released same time. At least IBM are going to base their own Blade servers on the 970, so they must support it. But you don't need AGP on a Blade (but DDR memory and PCI-X for GigE is crucial). I don't know if anyone will start using PCI-X for graphics. Could be a useable solution...
 

Offline mikeymike

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Re: 1.3Gig Dual PPC A1XE
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2003, 09:24:40 PM »
@ olegil

PCI-X - I was under the impression that was a potential replacement in the works for the PCI bus, not AGP... AGP has got a few more years in it *at least* if not a decade :-)  AGP-8x is more than most people are going to need for a while yet, and maybe there'll be a few more enhancements to that bus to go yet.

It could be with the IBM Blade servers that an AGP chipset is in use for graphics, in which case the chipset can talk to an AGP bus, in which case someone just needs to slap an AGP slot on the motherboard and play join the dots with some solder :-)

I could be talking out of my backside with that last paragraph, but it seems to me to be a good deal easier to adapt tried-and-tested technology than slap a custom new bus barely out of its nappies in something that's supposed to be 100% reliable, ie. a server.  Considering Intel can't even get the PCI/AGP bus implementations right on recent chipsets*, I don't think IBM would go jumping in that severely at the deep end.

* - an amusing situation recently with an 845xx chipset for the P4 from Intel, a limit of 90MB/sec bandwidth (confirmed by Intel bug in product) to AGP/PCI combined... guess how quickly the system dies if you try to run a reasonable graphics resolution and then do some network transfers? :-)  Answer: about five minutes.  Nice.