Warp3d Voodoo vs. Radeon ClassicOS

[Oldsmobile_Mike]

You can get PCI versions of the 92x0.   There are many 3.3V on Fleebay, not nearly as many 5V.

Oops, I was thinking of the newer cards - R7 250, R7 260, etc.

http://www.xfxforce.com/en-us/products/amd-radeon-r7-200-series#*

[killer]

Nice thread! maybe we could ask AEon to develop warp3d driver for radeon card to support classic system and they could sell them with the enancher software package for classic.. this would be great imho :-)

[Motormouth]

The smallest card that shipped with a G5 was a 64MB Radeon9600Pro which is a RV350.


R200 cards were supposed to go into G4, with the one build for

Congrats on getting both the mediator and the sonnet working, Motormouth! They're good aren't they!

Is the sonnet working stably for you, any issues or teething problems? The massive thread on eab is worth checking out if you havent already done so.

Regarding Radeon vs Voodoo: for a classic system I can't think of many reasons to choose the Radeon over the Voodoo. The Radeon's ram might be useful on the 68k side of the house but it's zorro ram and will be much slower than ram on your accelerator; it is not used at all by the sonnet. Warp3D on the Voodoo is much more useful if you're at all interested in playing games - BlitzQuake, Quake2, Quake3, Hexen2, Wipeout 2097 etc all make use of Warp3D.

Make sure you populate the sonnet with as much ram as you can - 192mb is what you're aiming for to give the best gaming experience.

@Kronos  I stand corrected, it is a R350, Kronos you are right.

I remember going to this quite interesting website to findout about mac for MorphOS
this page has how all mac are originally equipped
https://everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g5/faq/powermac-g5-adc-ports-dvi-ports-resolutions-supported.html

My G5 is the Early 2005 2.0 Ghz model.  I found an original card which a 9600 (non pro or XT) with 128 Meg Ram, kinda of a weird combo (ie not pro or xt and 128 meg).

These were the last of the AGP macs,  was there not a plan to get the 11,2 powermacs G5s to be MorphOS compatible?   I guess the biggest problem would be the need for the GForce 6600 PCI-E drivers???  just a guess.

@trixster  Thanks for asking.  The mediator with the Sonnet took me a few tries to get working.  The problem I had with the Radeon and Sonnet working together was the busmaster jumper.  The Github starting guide:
https://github.com/Sakura-IT/SonnetAmiga/wiki/Sonnet-first-time-installation-guide
said to keep the jumper closed, but the mediator manual says to have it open for a PCI card busmastering (vs Amiga CPU busmastering for close jumper)
Eventually I open it and everything started to work.  Otherwise the guide was awesome.

I have had issues getting the Sonnet to work with the voodoo however.  I figured out it was the Sonnet's ram.  I have 4k modules (ie 128 meg 5v FPM) .  The starters guide says it only works with 2k modules
The radeon didn't seem to care and worked with no problem with 3 128meg modules (or 384 meg) with only 128 meg mounting (because the radeon has 128 megs) 256 total.

The voodoo seems not to like more than 192megs in the sonnet.  I put a 128meg module and a 64meg module, everything started to work.

Oh and if the powerpc.library is in the Libs: directory without the InitPPC command in the right place in the startup-sequence, it will hang the computer.

Otherwise use the script method as described in the guide after the amiga is booted.

[Iggy]

The smallest card that shipped with a G5 was a 64MB Radeon9600Pro which is a RV350.


R200 cards were supposed to go into G4, with the one build for

The cards I've seen running in G5s were reflashed Radeon 9200s.
The Apple 9000 is a 4X AGP card with a power connector for the ADC power supply that is in the wrong place for a G5.

I'm not sure a PC 9000 couldn't be modified for use in a G5, but I've never tried a 4X card in a G5.

[Kronos]

was there not a plan to get the 11,2 powermacs G5s to be MorphOS compatible?   I guess the biggest problem would be the need for the GForce 6600 PCI-E drivers???  

a) widely off-topic

b) there never was "a plan" to make them supported

c) it is a badly kept secret that these indeed worked with 3.10beta(no idea wether that is still in the release) if you installed a supported PCIe Radeon (PPC-BIOS not needed)

d) NVidia is t3h eViL !!!!

[Iggy]

a) widely off-topic

b) there never was "a plan" to make them supported

c) it is a badly kept secret that these indeed worked with 3.10beta(no idea wether that is still in the release) if you installed a supported PCIe Radeon (PPC-BIOS not needed)

d) NVidia is t3h eViL !!!!

First, the 11,2 IS MorphOS compatible and some people have them running the OS, BUT it isn't supported and there is no plan to add this to the public distro (so buy an X5000).

Second, you do not need a Nvidia video card, as there is a Apple Radeon X1900GT for the 11,2 that should work perfectly.
And if you are willing to forego access to openfirm, then the newly supported PC cards (without a Mac rom) will work fine.

Nvidia cards will never be supported under MorphOS (and don't look likely under OS4). If you want to use one, switch to AROS.

[Motormouth]

a) widely off-topic

Noted
Back the radeon 9250 vs voodoo 3
The radeon 9250 with the Sonnet is very very stable, just no Warp3D
The Voodoo 3 is much less stable with the sonnet,  I get guru 8000 0004's all the time
I found this interest, albeit dated page, the unreliable mediator guide:
https://mediators.github.io/
It discussed the 8000 0004 with the voodoo
It suggest a little program called dtack  I get significantly less 8000 0004 errors,
but like the unreliable mediator guide says warp3d crashes with it, which is kinda like being back at using a radeon 9250 without warp3d, very very frustrating.
I am attempting to put both the radeon 9250 and the voodoo3 in the mediator.
I am going to configure the radeon to be the pcidma memory, while using the voodoo3 as just the display.

Initial attempts with this configuration seem a bit more stable, but I still get a couple crashes with WOS and Warp3d at the same time.  I think I need to adjust some of the mediator variables.  I still have some voodoo pcidma memory.

First, the 11,2 IS MorphOS compatible and some people have them running the OS, BUT it isn't supported and there is no plan to add this to the public distro (so buy an X5000).

Cool!  the 11,2 is a very nice model.

The cards I've seen running in G5s were reflashed Radeon 9200s.
The Apple 9000 is a 4X AGP card with a power connector for the ADC power supply that is in the wrong place for a G5.

I'm not sure a PC 9000 couldn't be modified for use in a G5, but I've never tried a 4X card in a G5.

Back the one of initial question, a warp3d library for the mediator/radeon 92x0 and classicOS would be nice

[Iggy]

Yes, from what I understand 11,2 PowerMac support was pulled from MorphOS 3.10. It could see distribution eventually, but I personally wouldn't want to see it cannibalize X5000 sales.
AND the X5000 is much more power efficient (G5 PowerMacs make great space heaters, and their fans at full speed are quite loud).

Your experiments with using both the Radeon 9200 and the Voodoo3 sound interesting. The extra memory on the Radeon can be put to good use.
Is it possible to use both cards for display, or does using Voodoo3 preclude the use of the 9200 for display?

And if Warp3D is the only component missing from the 9200 driver, it sounds like we just need a talented coder.
The fact that W3D support exists under OS4 and MorphOS provides two examples of how this can be implemented, so it should be easier than using a Linux driver as an example (of course the lack of source code is problematic, but I can remember disassembling machine code on the 68K, so it shouldn't be impossible to examine the PPC code to get an idea of what its doing).

Addendum - Oh, has anyone thought about using a higher end PCI card like the Radeon HD 5450 in a mediator? Again, there are OS4 and MorphOS drivers for that (albeit without W3D support), and that would be a kick ass combo with the Sonnet.
AND, how is the attempt to backwards engineer the Sonnet going?
It ought to be possible to build faster variants of that card.

[trixster]

I havent seen anything new on backwards engineering the sonnet.

The sonnet team have progressed onto getting other PPC PMC cards running with PMC->PCI adapters. These are quite a lot faster than the sonnet but require power modifications to get running stably.

https://github.com/Sakura-IT/SonnetAmiga/wiki/Installing-a-Rapture-card

I believe they're working on their own stand-alone card but no details have been made public on that so far.

For out-of-the-box turn-key use the Sonnet G3/G4 is still the easiest solution to get running and provides excellent performance.

[Iggy]

I havent seen anything new on backwards engineering the sonnet.

The sonnet team have progressed onto getting other PPC PMC cards running with PMC->PCI adapters. These are quite a lot faster than the sonnet but require power modifications to get running stably.

https://github.com/Sakura-IT/SonnetAmiga/wiki/Installing-a-Rapture-card

I believe they're working on their own stand-alone card but no details have been made public on that so far.

For out-of-the-box turn-key use the Sonnet G3/G4 is still the easiest solution to get running and provides excellent performance.

Except...they are almost as rare as hen's teeth.
And a re-implementation of the card could run two to three times faster.

[Motormouth]

Your experiments with using both the Radeon 9200 and the Voodoo3 sound interesting. The extra memory on the Radeon can be put to good use.
Is it possible to use both cards for display, or does using Voodoo3 preclude the use of the 9200 for display?

Update,  The Radeon 9250 works just fine with the Voodoo3.  When using picassomode The Radeon board is always.... always board0 and the voodoo board1 no matter what order the boards are in the mediator, nor if one was in first (ie by itself with a previous configuration).  This suggests that the radeon device is being mounted first during boot. (alphabetical order perhaps?)

This being said if the radeon was previously configured (board0), you need to add new monitor profiles for the voodoo (board1).  If the voodoo was by itself first (ie board0) it becomes board1, and the new radeon becomes board0.  Therefore both monitor modes for both cards need to be reconfigured.

It if funny to have the workbench screen being displayed by the radeon and the picasso test pattern on the voodoo output.

Some really interesting things happen with many programs.  If you have a warp3d workbench window open you need to have a 16bit voodoo3 mode configured for as your monitor preference, things will otherwise crash, ie gears opened in a windoew..  Otherwise for full screen modes warp3d will always go to the voodoo3 (as these are the only warp3d drivers I have installed)  otherwise a new 2-d full screen video output will attempt to go to the radeon modes, unless otherwise configured.

Maximum ram that can be configured with the Sonnet in the system is 256 megs,  if the radeon has 128 megs of ram, the sonnet will/can only have 128 megs.  This seems to be true even if the mediator is configured for 512 megs of address space.  Unlike what I said in an early post, with just the voodoo and the sonnet, I can put 256 megs of ram in the sonnet.

What is really weird with the 256 meg limit.  If the radeon and sonnet are in the mediator together,  if more than 256 meg of memory between the two are in the system, the extra sonnet memory will not be mounted and used, but otherwise everything works.   But once you put the voodoo in the system (either with or without the radeon) if you go above 256 megs (ie aboe 128 meg radeon /128meg sonnet, or above 256 meg sonnet only no radeon) everything will crash.  I find this interesting.

Sonnet memory configures as 32 bit "sonnet memory", it always leave 6 megs unmounted (I assume this is for powerpc.library stuff)

The radeon's extra memory is always mounted as 32 bit "pcidma memory" which can be used with the 680x0.

And the voodoo always have a least 1 meg of memory (depending on configuration) as "pcidma memory",  if by itself (no radeon, radeon usually has much much more) you need at least 3 megs of pcidma memory from the video card to do dma transfers between the amiga and the sonnet or the powerpc.library will bring up a message saying that it needs 3 meg of pcidma memory.

After all of this the PPC and warp3d together still crashes randomly.
warp3d and 68k works without any issues.
PPC works by itself without any issues.
but PPC and warp3d, though more stable with the radeon card still generates a variety of
8000 000x errors mostly where x = 4, A, or B.

[trixster]

Motormouth, I would recommend you post on the eab thread. A bunch of people have had similar issues to what you're seeing, most of which have been resolved.

Have you tried a fresh workbench install? It is recommended to start with no more than wb3.9 + bb1 and bb2 to try and rule out a dodgy patch causing issues.

Have you tried tweaking the setcmemdiv parameter? Sometimes allowing the sonnet to autodetect the cachemem speed causes instability.

SetCMemDiv (0-5): Sets the speed divider of the L2 Cache memory. 5 = 3, 4 = 2.5, 3 = 2, 2 = 1.5, 1 = 1, 0 = Handled by library. Default = 0. For example: A Sonnet with speed 500 MHz and setting 5 will run the L2 cache at 166 MHz (500/3).

[Rob]

Nice thread! maybe we could ask AEon to develop warp3d driver for radeon card to support classic system and they could sell them with the enancher software package for classic.. this would be great imho :-)

I think if someone approached A-EON offering to do the work it could happen but I can't see them diverting their current resources towards this.

[Iggy]

I think if someone approached A-EON offering to do the work it could happen but I can't see them diverting their current resources towards this.

AND Aeon doesn't produce software, it pays others as outside contractors to do it.
Further, the existing OS4 R200 driver (as a model) is quite old.
Hyperion could do the backport, as they have the OS4 source code, and they claim they want to support OS3.1, BUT it adds to the other tasks they are already swamped with.

OR you guys could establish a bounty and pay someone write this for you. Can you think of anyone, with experience writing W3D drivers for OS4? One person comes in mind to me.

[Motormouth]

OR you guys could establish a bounty and pay someone write this for you. Can you think of anyone, with experience writing W3D drivers for OS4? One person comes in mind to me.

I would be very interested to have a talented programmer, like yourself, to take on the challenge and certainly would be interested in contributing to a bounty.   Would you want to do something like indigogo.  Or via paypal donations account.  Further, I would assume this would be best effort.   Feel free to pmail me.  I know I would be willing to beta test for you.  My only caveat would be it would need not only be warp3d compatible but be warp3d compatible with the mediator as their warp3d libraries are a bit different.   The Prometheus would also be a plus.  


Oh, by the way I think I know what is wrong with my setup.  I think it is the Voodoo card itself.  Sometimes the mediator says it has 13 megs of ram and sometimes 16 megs of ram.

I think it may be a bad memory chip.  This probably would not effect 2-D video if the chip is mapped high.  The 2-D video would use lowest ram first.  However it might effect pcidma memory.

[Motormouth]

Motormouth, I would recommend you post on the eab thread. A bunch of people have had similar issues to what you're seeing, most of which have been resolved.

Have you tried a fresh workbench install? It is recommended to start with no more than wb3.9 + bb1 and bb2 to try and rule out a dodgy patch causing issues.

Have you tried tweaking the setcmemdiv parameter? Sometimes allowing the sonnet to autodetect the cachemem speed causes instability.

SetCMemDiv (0-5): Sets the speed divider of the L2 Cache memory. 5 = 3, 4 = 2.5, 3 = 2, 2 = 1.5, 1 = 1, 0 = Handled by library. Default = 0. For example: A Sonnet with speed 500 MHz and setting 5 will run the L2 cache at 166 MHz (500/3).

@trixster  thanks for the advise.  I finally made an EAB account.  The EAB threads are quite good.  I am going through them.  I have the setcmemdiv unset.  getinfo says it is a its default value,  I might however attempt to set the setcmemdiv at what would be the default.