Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Gaming => Topic started by: reflect on July 21, 2003, 11:16:22 PM
-
I'm posting this for someone that wishes to remain anonymous. The reason I post this is cause I agree 100%.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many months ago there was someone here on amiga.org who told me and a bunch of others that TOSEC aint a pirate team, YEAH right.
I told him the same that day as today, they pirate, I have discussed it on several places.
here is a site that show how crude this is...
link to pirate site removed by admin
all from old to brand new games..
online and ready to pick for anyone , sure bttr has legal ones, but this is not like bttr...
this site should be CLOSED! (planet emu)
new apc-tcp games , and games like apanosin etc..
No wonder people is giving up with developing
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Why aren't sites like these already closed down? It can't be that hard, now can it? New games.. ####.. I thought most people on amiga today realized that piracy today is killing what is left of the tiny developer community that we have.
-
Yeah !! And you are really preventing piracy by publicising the URLs for everybody aren't you ......NOT ???? :-?
-
So what? the site is already out there. If we can get some attention on it, perhaps we can close it down.
-
Well the way I look at it is that even if the sites exist they are not much use unless people know about them.
Linking to them is giving them free advertising, thats all I am saying.
-
Interesting site..
Seriously, I can see both arguments.. but a quick Google search will find it easily enough. Equally, whingeing on here is not goint to close it down.
-
"whingeing"? (is that even an english word?) :))
On the contrary, get me a couple of dedicated people and we'll bring the site down. It doesn't take a whole lot to do that, you know.
Find the provider that this site buys bandwidth from, check the acceptable use policy and take it from there. If their policy doesn't cut it, then find out who their upstream provider is.
It's not like people are untouchable cause they're on the net.
-
@reflect:
So why are you not doing that, instead of posting the URL?
edit: P.S. Yes, it's an English word *shakes head*
-
but a quick Google search will find it easily enough
Among other intersting things
reminds me of the arcade game Whack-a-Mole
shut one down two pop up
True pirates would probably, (my assumption here) , not stay in one place for long, maybe even W.A.R. driving etc...
but since I like to live in the gnu/free world , this discussion and its ilk interests me not.
-
The URL is gone now, so why don't we just drop that part of the discussion, yeah?
And "why I aren't doing that" ie closing them down, is cause it's more effective if there's more people working with you.
-
reflect wrote:
"whingeing"? (is that even an english word?) :))
FYI It actually does exist :-D
whinge /wnd/ verb (pres.part. whinge•ing or whing•ing) [v] (BrE, informal, disapproving) ~ (about sb/sth) to complain in an annoying way: She's always whingeing about how unfair everything is.
whinge noun whin•ger noun
Taken from: http://www.oup.com/elt/oald/ (http://www.oup.com/elt/oald/)
Its a UK specific spelling ;-)
-
The URL is gone now, so why don't we just drop that part of the discussion, yeah?
Sure, lucky I bookmared it, eh? :-P
And "why I aren't doing that" ie closing them down, is cause it's more effective if there's more people working with you
OK, I'm game... even luckier I bookmarked it, aye? 8-)
-
*While you read this, please note i don't support piracy*
*allthough you may not think so*
Imho Tosec is a great idea. I've yet to see anything NEW
at that site at all. newest game would probably be alien breed 3d 2 or something like that.
They are doing a great job in fact. Collecting over many thousands of disks of various old games,programs,demoscene productions and so on. They check what version, name of company,releasedates, and so forth, and everything to make sure that everything
that ever was being made on amiga in those good old days... can still be enjoyed in the light of present day and future.
**break : Tosec is in no way amiga only, they give out tons of stuff for atari spec nes and tons and tons more stuff**
Imho, amiga is very much alive by the fact that ppl can play old games, use good old dpaint/ppaint and enjoy
the mighty power of real o.s. ).Not even starting to mention the demoscene,the amount of ppl hungry to check out the history of various groups are tending to be quite enormous.
You know it as well as i do, there are tons of them old
games which are never going to be played but just maybe one day, someone will pick it up, not because they wanted to, but because they stumbled upon some old game (or app) made available by those guys at Tosec.
I really fail to see what money is "lost" because of this.
It's in a way funny, because all of which tosec has released as i have seen so far is in fact re-releases of
good working copies of various software.
In other words. It is *already* been pirated and it killed the amiga. So what damage could it do NOW? when the amiga is already been slained to a ghost/angel who has yet to prove it's commercial value in todays market.
I really hate to say this, i really,really do. But at least i know the truth.
I really would like to say that amiga would rise from the ashes, but face reality, not like the way amiga is heading atm, no don't think so.
Now ..It's a whole new ballgame to relelase new amiga software, however, i don't think the whole idea of the work that Tosec does should be consireded such a negative result fact, because it simply isn't. And i stress the fact that i do NOT know of any new software or should i say profitable commercial software that would be sold in any way is being released by Tosec.
The thing is that many users liked amiga the way they were(are). Who needs more then an amiga with b1260 anyway? or blizzard 1230 for that matter. It was this thought and along with piracy which seriously helped kill the amiga.
However, i better stop coz i am changing topics here =)..
Now you may all disagree with me, and i am totally cool with that, but ask yourself this question. :
How many new users did amiga community gain by new hardware, new exciting software the last 5 years?
a million? 100 thousand? 10 thousand?
And then think of the possibility of reliving the amiga dream through an pc on emulation...
New hardware or latest winuae?
Take your pick "Joe".
Don't be a smart ass if you're not prepared to loose.
:-)
-
I would just like to add that, if i ever saw such a site
which did publish new commercial amiga software,
i'd take em down myself.
However, i don't have the habit of searching for new amiga software, hence i would never find such a thing..
(the thread starter obvs. has, no one thought of that?)
At least that's what i hope for their's sake.
ps:sorry for terrible english.
-
Ehm...
-May I remind the admin who removed the link that the link actually is right here on amiga.org?
-Someone here said OK for it I presume?
-Amiga.org -> Pirates? -Don't think so...
Confusion :-?
-
Uuuuuuuuuuuhm (http://www.amiga.org/modules/mylinks/singlelink.php?lid=320).
Does this mean that Amiga.org will disable it's internal links? :-D.
--edit
SHEES, again I've not been paying attention. LP already spotted this. That's it, I'm going to bed.
-
Uuuuuuuuuuuhm.
they should definently get rid of that one :-x
-
:-D :-D :-D
Going to bed already?
:-D :-D :-D
-
Ehm... TOSEC is just a database isn't it?
As far as I can see they just provide names for the games/apps?
-Let me edit my self-
I'm too blind :)
-
I guess listing names of software is considered piracy this days also... *sigh*
-
Just saw the thread, verified links to the KS files as well as other (still able to be purchased new) files. I've informed some of the licensing parties of the potential copyright infringements as well their main host provider about the site. I'm not sure how long it will stay alive. I'm glad that I had a part in taking down Lazarus, and I'll be happy to help take this site down or reshape their file sharing ethics. BTTR is on the other hand, a well respected emulation site that doesn't infringe on any copyrights or intellectual properties that I've seen.
:pint:
-
Kent
well done my man! if only i could buy you a :pint:
-
Hi,
Lets really talk about pirates, I mean real software pirates who stole from us and really killed the Amiga computer.
The first one I want to talk about is the one that ripped me off, I am talking about Electronic Arts, yea you heard me, when the Amiga first came out I bought their games, like Arctic Fox, Star fighter (I hope I got this name right, it was about a jet that takes off and blasts tanks) anyhow I bought Electronic arts games, this was back in the Amiga Dos 1.0 days, well Amiga upgraded to 1.1 and gues what none of those games worked on 1.1 due to EA's copy protection, during this time I also purchased a Supra scsi card for the A1000, more memory an accelerator and a 20 meg hard drive. Now EA's games wouldn't load on the hard drive due to copy protection and guess what neither would their flag shi_ Deluxe paint, it to was copy protected back in those days. So my vote for Number 1 pirate was Electronic Arts, they under handedly broke the Amiga's back from the get go with copy protection.
Lets talk about all the other companies that used copy protection to guard their disks, like Pschnogsis (yea yea I spelled it wrong) they to made excellent games that if they were let put on a hard drive would have really excelled, but no copy protection was the thing, as if they were stopping software pirates, you know software developers, the greater the protection the harder the pirates try to break it because it is a challenge, they don't buy your software to play the damn game they break it for the challenge and the glory of being the first to break your copy protection.
So now you know why the Amiga really died, it is because software developers copy protected their software so that when Amiga upgraded their Operating Systems the software wouldn't work and couldn't be installed on hard drives.
Think of games like Battle Hawks, The one game where some one goes back to cartoon land (this game was a real pain because when you lost you had to start from the start all over again).
Anyhow how about dungeon master, a great game if you could install it on hard drive, on disk drive just to slow.
These developers I truly blame for the demise of the Amiga, not the software pirates, they just took on the challenge of breaking software protection, and more than likely they were software programmers themselves trying to break their friends code.
Any how I can say that I bought every program that had no protection on it and could be installed on a hard drive. I can't say the same about copy protected disks, if someone broke them and offered them to me I took them just for the spite of my loss of my favorite game Arctic Fox. (Hey it was one of the few games I could beat, and winning sometimes is fun). My code was if it was protected and couldn't be installed on a hard drive then yes I pirated it, if it was protected and could be installed on a hard drive but I had to go through the inconvenience of a code wheel, look up word etc. I bought it when it got old. No protection or on CD I paid. When game I bought and really hate is ZOOL, great game, why did I hate it? Did you ever look at Black lettering on Dark Brown Paper for a code at the age of 50. This is Bullsheet, come on guys gives us older people a chance to, we may be old but a lot of us like playing your game.
smerf
-
This is going to sound quite odd, but I have to completely agree with Smerf. Not just because he's got a cool nick, but he's nailed the whole reason of piracy down to the bone. Back before WHDLoad was even available, 90% of the software I had purchased wouldn't work cause I installed a 68010 14MHz in my A500. I later upgraded to a Derringer 030/33MHz and 40MB Trifecta LX but still the majority of the software wouldn't work, not to mention the lack of hard drive install ability. I admit that I used to share software with other local users, but only to find out the software didn't work or wasn't worth it due to hard drive installs or really horrid doc checks. I try to stay away from any game that has a doc check, and if the software has some wicked copy protection that won't allow hard drive installs I won't use it. In a modern age of computers, it's time for a modern age of program design. Too much protection will automatically warrant piracy however, too little protection will make the software easy to hack and share. The easiest medium I know by far is to just use keyfiles with the end users information in the key itself. I don't pirate or share anymore, I just make sure the software I purchase doesn't have foolhardy restrictions in it before I purchase.
:pint:
-
Lets really talk about pirates, I mean real software pirates who stole from us and really killed the Amiga computer.
i dont believe that anybody outside of Commodore actually killed the amiga(apart from perhaps microsoft, ibm and apple...)
im too tired now, but probably later ill expand this message to give you a rant that will explain that what you are talking about, what you refer to as 'copyprotection' - is like that for technical reasons, and not business/political/ecconomic reasons...
later...
-
@kent
there are technical reasons for what you are talking about
and ive decided that,(pleeese nobody else do this)ill start a whole new thread on the very reasons for what you are both talking about
tomorrow when i (i hope)start this thread, i will explain all!
what i will show you:
- you will learn how commodore were always right from the beginning (and how it was the programmers who were wrong)
- i will tell you why you couldnt install those games on hard drive
- i will explain in detail the secrets behind amiga compatability - and what games developers did so wrong
- you will learn that commodore were so passionate about this very issue
- you will also learn that not only was it possible to write HD installable software, but also it was also possible to actually BENEFIT from writing it in this particular way
- developers will discover the secrets to keeping your apps comppatable, and how to not frustrate users, and why by doing this, you will profit even more!
- and more! stay tuned...
:-D
-
i dont believe that anybody outside of Commodore actually killed the amiga(apart from perhaps microsoft, ibm and apple...)
I believe that what killed commodore was one braindead business decision after another. Like launching the A500+, then less than a year later canning it and replacing it with the A600.
The companies you mention: as at 1994, when CBM imploded, Apple was a competitor, but I doubt they had the power to kill the amiga. Microsoft was taking over on the x86 part of the industry, but based on their relationship to Apple (ie it's their "proof" that they're not a monopoly), I don't think it would've done it. I think it's even possible that they would've ported Office to the Amiga, just to keep the DOJ off their backs. IBM's attitude toward the Amiga back then was what it is now towards Apple (if you ignore their CPU division) - they don't see themselves as being in the same market segment.
-
I believe that what killed commodore was one braindead business decision after another. Like launching the A500+, then less than a year later canning it and replacing it with the A600.
sort of agree there... the A500+ was great! it was a step forward... the A600 on the other hand was a bad idea... ok, it was cheap, but nothing else
i knew a guy who wentout and bought(his first computer) an A600, there was a game(some flight sim) which required use of the enter key! because of this game alone, he packed it up, rushed the A600 to the store the next day, got his money back and bought a seccond hand A500!!
The companies you mention: as at 1994, when CBM imploded, Apple was a competitor, but I doubt they had the power to kill the amiga. Microsoft was taking over on the x86 part of the industry, but based on their relationship to Apple (ie it's their "proof" that they're not a monopoly), I don't think it would've done it. I think it's even possible that they would've ported Office to the Amiga, just to keep the DOJ off their backs. IBM's attitude toward the Amiga back then was what it is now towards Apple (if you ignore their CPU division) - they don't see themselves as being in the same market segment.
i know they were just competitors, and im all for competition.. but i like to think they were probably scheming(sp?), it was a conspiracy! :-P :crazy:
-
What amazes me is how many people will cry about the evil pirates, when to date, I have never met a single person that has not commited hundreds of IP violations. Whether it's using someone elses creation as an avatar, taking a photo of your best friend holding a Coke can, or copying a movie you rented back when we had VHS, you are a "pirate".
Then there is the large group of people who would "pirate back in the old days", but since have learned the error of their ways, and come down on those who do it now like a hammer.
"Piracy" is a gray issue. We all know that our IP laws are broken. (US and Euro alike) When over 90% of your population refuse to obey a law, maybe it is time to re-think the law.
-
taking a photo of your best friend holding a Coke can,
thats not piracy...Then there is the large group of people who would "pirate back in the old days", but since have learned the error of their ways, and come down on those who do it now like a hammer.
this might come as a shock, but in my early to mid teens i was a bit of a pirate, i always had this guilty feeling, and eventually i realised i was completly wrong - i can respect others who have done wrong in their past... thats what forgivness is all agout :-) you have to give people a chance to change...
When over 90% of your population refuse to obey a law, maybe it is time to re-think the law.
are you suggesting you want the law to change? i believe that if 99% of people are doing somthing wrong, it doesnt make that right - its still evil IMAO
-
thats not piracy...
It is if your friend is holding a Coke can that has coca cola's trademarked wave displayed. Taking a picture of this without express written permission is an illegal copy of thier trademark, and thus "piracy".
this might come as a shock, but in my early to mid teens i was a bit of a pirate, i always had this guilty feeling, and eventually i realised i was completly wrong - i can respect others who have done wrong in their past... thats what forgivness is all agout you have to give people a chance to change...
What you call forgiveness, others would call hypocracy. "I got mine, now we should stop everybody else."
are you suggesting you want the law to change? i believe that if 99% of people are doing somthing wrong, it doesnt make that right - its still evil IMAO
YES, I am suggesting I want the law to change. The idea of copying someone as being wrong is a new concept that was created with the relatively new idea of copyright. For thousands of year, humanity, AND business functioned perfectly fine without copyright.
"Evil"??? Illegal, yes. But evil? You must be kidding?!?!?! Everything created is derivitive, right down to the words you used to write your response. If copying someone is "evil" as opposed to illegal, all humanity is evil from the begining of speech onward.
Or, are you saying that it is illegal, and doing something that is illegal is "evil"? If so, changing the law makes it not "evil" anymore.
-
I dont think there is anything wrong with pirating something to 'LEARN" ... but pirating something to do work with ...then your just a piece of sh*t and deserve club fed.
-
Exactly meerschaum...if you're profiting off of
stolen software I think that's definately an
offense, the rest falls into different 'grey -
areas'.
@refelect
I wouldn't be too worried about an old '96 amiga
game though...especially if the original
developers are already payed out and the game
is unobtainable (and I don't count ebay).
Who cares??? The six people who actually
download it probably won't even use it
except for 5 minutes of novelty...
-
Which just shows that piracy is a gray issue. I'm not saying that the original idea of copyright is wrong. I am saying that the monstrosity that it has become IS wrong.
-
@Belial6
I'd have to agree with that fully. We can't
regulate every specific action, nor should we.
There's an old Chinese proverb...'the tighter
one grips a handful of sand, the more sand slips
through the fingers' or something to that affect.
Unfortunately (at least here in the US) the
problem is worsening, a good example is some
of our over-zealous drug laws.
-
Ah, talk about copy protection being evil...
Well, unless, you've noticed, same is now happening in the music
industry...
They release CD's, that won't work on computers, DVD players, some CD
players etc. for the simple reason, they couldn't be copied
(Anyway, they CAN be, but not everyone can play them)
So, tell me...
Boycotting copy protected CD's (which I sure do)
m I evil pirate aiming to destroy music industry, or just another
individual trying to convince record companies to follow common
standards?
-
Boycotting copy protected CD's (which I sure do)
Your more generous than me...I have stopped buying CDs all together since the music industry started intentionally selling defective (copy protected) CDs. I don't want to have to deal with the hassel of trying to force a store to take back a CD, so out of fear of getting a defective (copy protected) CD, I have stopped all purchases.
-
Copy protection is pathetic and just pisses people off, a good example is PC games, why the hell should i install a game to harddrive when the game bombards me with "Insert cd x" messages.
NO-CD cracks are a godsend.
As for this fantastic audio cd protection, to bypass it use a ordinary felt tip pen (not permanant) and draw over the last track and copy it with CloneCD etc :lol: then wipe the ink off.
-
@Paul_Gadd
NO-CD cracks are a godsend
You are dead right, no cd cracks have saved the life of my cds and drives
As for this fantastic audio cd protection, to bypass it use a ordinary felt tip pen
I used two small bits of electrical tape
-
a CD is differant then an app is differant then a movie... a CD is music, its non-essential and you learn nothing from owning it... you are in effect stealing it if you download an MP3... an app? how else is a 14 year old kid going to learn 3D? or 2D? he dosent have 1500 to spend on the app....so its in everyones intrest he gets it for free and learns it... the expensive industry standerd app... and goes on to buy it and contribute... most companies would be out of business if it wherent for piracy in the software business... e.g Quark,Adobe,Macromedia,NewTek and most certinly Alias|Wavefront... by ignoring pirates and produceing the top-tier apps they in effect lay seed for market enuchia wich helps them in the long run.
-
Can just chip in for a moment...
ALL of the TOSEC disks are regularly posted on USENet. Shutting the site down wont make them go away. This is one case where the Whack-A-Mole philosophy definately applies.
I have, for my sins, a CD of TOSEC demos and games, none of it any newer than 1997 (according to the wonderful TOSEC naming system).
I have these so that I can on occasion take a trip down memory lane. How else would I have done this ? camped on eBay spending 100s of pounds? I think not...
In short, if you can still buy it, buy it. If not, then be creative and get a copy.
Incidently what is the default copyright lifetime of software?
-Jar.
-
How are tosec pirates?
Check for your self there are no rom/adf images on there site Look for your self (http://tosec.org/)
You cant blame Tosec for other sites that distribute rom/adfs, PE "i wont post link or full name" as far as i know are not affiliated with Tosec
-
oh my.
how wrong is this thread!
the way i look at this fiasco; there is not enough revenue in the Amiga sector (and there hasn't been for five years +) for new software developments that can compete with programs on other platforms. This is the real reason that Amiga is no longer a viable desktop alternate and is considered an 'enthusiasts' or 'niche' computer. (exactly the same as Acorn, Spectrum, Atari ... ).
An example, the majority of Amiga software has been written by bedroom coders or groups of community members. Generally this software is realeased as shareware or freeware on AmiNET - the largest source of free software in the world. This is the reason that the community still exists and is strong.
TOSEC is a similar sort of community - trying to keep records of software for discontinued computer systems. the database is comprehensive but only contains useful details of the software such as year of release, publishers, version and compatability issues for emulation. in absolutely no way are TOSEC hosting illegal files - if anybody can find .adf files or the kickroms mentioned, feel free to critise me!
The truth of the matter is this - the banning on this URL is hopelessly killing the amiga spirit, not piracy. most of the files in the database are abandonware or past commercial software. stop wasting your efforts on trying to rubbish other's enthusiasms.
If you want to contribute to the future of the amiga before driving the community away - get your ideas together, discuss possible concepts, chat about the future, give opinions about software betas...
CONTRIBUTE YOUR CREATIVITY!
-
NitrousB wrote:
How are tosec pirates?
Check for your self there are no rom/adf images on there site Look for your self (http://tosec.org/)
You cant blame Tosec for other sites that distribute rom/adfs, PE "i wont post link or full name" as far as i know are not affiliated with Tosec
Suffice to say, the link that was removed was not to that website but to one where you could clearly download Kickstart Rom files and other software.
I think the thread title is confusing people.
Go back and read the first post that starts this thread. The offending site is named in that post.
-
@GadgetMaster
If you reread my post you will see the initials of the offending site, i know what site was distributing the roms, but there is no need to call tosec pirates as they are not distributing nothing
-
How was the A500+ "a step forward"? It was either KS2.x, 1MB chip - can't remember... even if it had both of those who would have cared at the time?
-
NitrousB wrote:
@GadgetMaster
If you reread my post you will see the initials of the offending site, i know what site was distributing the roms, but there is no need to call tosec pirates as they are not distributing nothing
I agree !
I think the original poster got a bit carried away with the thread title etc. ;-)
-
Find the provider that this site buys bandwidth from, check the acceptable use policy and take it from there. If their policy doesn't cut it, then find out who their upstream provider is.
This is AFAIK and it's not 100% acurate but ;
I can "buy" an old oil platform, go to international waters, proclaim to be a state of some sorts, get a "." extension (.seer ;-) ) and run several nice internet servers.. As I don't have to obey US/EU/whatever laws I'm not bopund to TM and @ notices.. AFAIK there's one such old platform out there hosting numerous gambling sites.. Could be mistaken about that tho
Anyway, how do you think to shut down a provider in a country far from yours with different laws ?
-
those code wheels was sure annoying.. One of the few games i bought was Monkey island.. Few months later, i managed to lose the wheel, then the game was totally unusable :-x
-
@Seer
I can "buy" an old oil platform, go to international waters, proclaim to be a state
There is something like that in the uk, the bloke who owns it has even given out passports
-
the A600 on the other hand was a bad idea... ok, it was cheap, but nothing else
agree there... the a500 was a much better piece of hardware... They should have released the a1200 at the time they released the 600
a500+ should not have been released either..
-
@NitrousB
ThanX, I wasn't sure about this.. IIRC he "crowned" himself to be a prince and has a princedom (Not sure that's an English word) and is sovereign (again sp?) state..
-
Isn't it called the state of SeaLand or something?
-
A quick google later....
Everything you need to know about Sealand with pics. :-D
http://www.fruitsofthesea.demon.co.uk/sealand/index.html (http://www.fruitsofthesea.demon.co.uk/sealand/index.html)
and
http://www.sealandgov.org/ (http://www.sealandgov.org/)
-
@GadgetMaster
Thats the place, i was not sure what it was called
-
It is if your friend is holding a Coke can that has coca cola's trademarked wave displayed. Taking a picture of this without express written permission is an illegal copy of thier trademark, and thus "piracy".
Belial6, learn some law... the 'coke' logo is regitered as a trade mark. why? for the very simple fact that you cant actually copyright a logo(well people try that because the cat afford to register a trademark, but does it have the same effect? not likely!) read up on copyright law, please.
What you call forgiveness, others would call hypocracy. "I got mine, now we should stop everybody else."
sorry, i didnt mention that i also mean that it should be destroyed!YES, I am suggesting I want the law to change.
i wonder if anybody else is with you on this one? The idea of copying someone as being wrong is a new concept that was created with the relatively new idea of copyright.
i dont doubt the fact that copyright law is reletivly new... the idea of Interlectual Property is ancient... However, how new or old it is is completly irrelevant. how is a new legislation nessarilly more 'wrong' than an old one?For thousands of year, humanity, AND business functioned perfectly fine without copyright.
Well apparently not. The whole reason copyright exists is that authors would write a book, take it to a publisher, who would publish it and pay the author for his work, and then a whole bunch of other *SCUM* publisher's would completly rip-off both of them... is that fair? is that the way you would like it to work again? ripping-off authours and their chosen publishers work, soley for your own selfish gain?But evil? You must be kidding?
I would like to ask you, Belial6, why would i be kidding? Do you not see any logic in what i am telling you? Everything created is derivitive, right down to the words you used to write your response.
Here you are twisting the meaning of what i have written. YOU KNOW that i am not talking about 'derivation'! you have delibratly chosen to change the subject from copying the actual works of a person to basing work on anothers 'ideas', ideas cannot be copyrighed! I would of hopped that by you writing a rant relating to copyright, that you would know somthing about actual copyright law. Since you have been deceitful, by changing the whole meaning, by actually changing what we are discussing from IP to ideas, i can only assume you do NOT know about copyright, and therefore your rant is based on pure ignorance and not fact.(well i know its not based on fact) If copying someone is "evil" as opposed to illegal, all humanity is evil from the begining of speech onward.
Again Belial6, you are misusing the terminology here... the language is not copyrighted, it is specifically public domain. An authors actual works may be copyrighted. Either you are mis-guided about copyright law, or you are so against the protection of artists work and payment to the respective copyright holders, that you can only think of decietful arguments to support your cause, that alone shows that you really dont seem to have a rational argument in your defence...
-
mikeymike wrote:
How was the A500+ "a step forward"? It was either KS2.x, 1MB chip - can't remember... even if it had both of those who would have cared at the time?
mikeymike, you are forgetting what computers were like in the 80's(and early 90's)! an extra 1/2 meg of ram in a computer as standard was seen as a BIG improvement! especialy if that ram is chip ram on your amiga, and especialy if its possible to ad another 1 meg to the trap door!
what a huge improvement!
i remember painting on my old A500(with .5meg fast, .5 meg chip), and always running our of chip ram - then trying the same thing on another persons A500+, and i could get the job done :-o
this guy also had KS 2.04(i had 1.3) and i loved that too! back then(you probably wouldnt notice so much these days) AmigaOS 2 was so much more proffessional
back in those days the A500+ was an absolutly huge difference
probably the only real problem is that some things were a bit slower, since nothing ran in fast
(BTW i believe my A500 was hacked so that the so called 'slow-ram' actually became fast-ram!! :-o )
-
I agree with Decore.
The site has many old and rare utilities and games for many old computers. It would be a shame for them to disappear.
What's the problem with you guys? Haven't you got anything better to do than to concern yourselves with the copyrights of programs that are 20 years old?
-
Belial6, learn some law... the 'coke' logo is regitered as a trade mark. why? for the very simple fact that you cant actually copyright a logo(well people try that because the cat afford to register a trademark, but does it have the same effect? not likely!) read up on copyright law, please.
You might be right, it might not be illegal to make copies of someones trademark unless it is used in trade. So, let me give a better example. You take a picture of your pal, and he happens to be in frount of a movie theater, or in a room with a movie poster that makes it into the shot. The movie post DOES have a copyright.
i wonder if anybody else is with you on this one?
I believe most consumers do agree. Do they (or I) believe that copyright should be completely destroyed? Some probably do, but most would be happy if it could be returned to a workable form. Obviously many on this board think it needs to be changed.
Here you are twisting the meaning of what i have written. YOU KNOW that i am not talking about 'derivation'! you have delibratly chosen to change the subject from copying the actual works of a person to basing work on anothers 'ideas', ideas cannot be copyrighed!
Definition of idea (http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entries/85/i0018500.html)
All copyright does is protect 'ideas'. That is the whole point. Hence the 'Intellectual' part of 'Intellectual Property'. And with the 'derivative' rant, are you saying that the crackers who change the code on the game before distributing it are ok? I'm doubting that. Copyright is supposed to protect against both exact copies, AND derivative works.
the idea of Interlectual Property is ancient... However, how new or old it is is completly irrelevant. how is a new legislation nessarilly more 'wrong' than an old one?
What makes it relevent is that right and wrong are human constructs. There is a very large contingent of the population who believe that outlawing the use of human knowledge and culture, sometimes to the point that the culture is lost, is evil.
Also, can you point me to a IP reference that would support the statement of IP being ancient? You are the first person I have run across that made that statement.
Well apparently not. The whole reason copyright exists is that authors would write a book, take it to a publisher, who would publish it and pay the author for his work, and then a whole bunch of other *SCUM* publisher's would completly rip-off both of them... is that fair? is that the way you would like it to work again? ripping-off authours and their chosen publishers work, soley for your own selfish gain?
Well, since everybody constantly uses ideas that others came up with on a daily bases, it becomes a gray issue. What ideas are ok to use, and which are not are pretty much constucts of the copyright law itself. Do we call children who sing Ring Around the Rosies "evil" because they didn't get the authors permision? What about a partent that tells their child the story of Jack and the Beanstalk?
the language is not copyrighted, it is specifically public domain.
You seem to be working off of the premise that copying someone is evil because it is illegal, and thus should be illegal because it is evil. It's a circular argument.
I take all of the 'your a big dummy' jabs as attempts to prove me wrong without facts. It is a common tactic in such situations, when logic fails on the subject. And perhaps the points on everyone committing copyright violations hits a little to close to home.
-
> TOSEC aint a pirate team, YEAH right.
Tosec is simply a catalog. It doesn't really have anything to do with piracy. It would be like calling the Library Of Congress database a pirate organization.
\edit\ ever read an old thread, and reply to the first post without reading the rest of the thread to realise you're repeating someone else? :)
-
Belial6, im getting sick of your lies and ignorance, and this will be the last time i post in this thread.
You might be right, it might not be illegal to make copies of someones trademark unless it is used in trade. So, let me give a better example. You take a picture of your pal, and he happens to be in frount of a movie theater, or in a room with a movie poster that makes it into the shot. The movie post DOES have a copyright.
im leaving this alone. you have no idea what copyright is about, you obviously dont understand the rules, and its obvious that you havent even attempted to study them, instead you are asking me for the answers, unless you go and study some copyright laws, i suggest you see a lawyer.
I believe most consumers do agree. Do they (or I) believe that copyright should be completely destroyed? Some probably do, but most would be happy if it could be returned to a workable form. Obviously many on this board think it needs to be changed.
would you mind explaining to everyone what a 'workable form' is, and why your oppinion is so much better than everyone elses, nobody else on this board seem to think that copyright is wrong
Definition of idea
All copyright does is protect 'ideas'.
Wrong! i just said to you that copy right will not protect ideas - so dont give me a definition of 'idea', you are plainly wrong
I dont know where you live, however, i would like to point you to www.copyright.org.au (http://www.copyright.org.au). please study this, you have no idea what copyright means, this is my main resource when i need to know somthing about copyright
if you knew somthing about copyright, you would know that 'ideas' may not be copyrighted. an actual representation of an idea that can be copyrighted. if you write your ideas on paper, your actual text may be subject to copyright, thats not an idea, it is text.
If you are not familliar with the game(or its history) 'Tetris', i suggest you go and study its history.
you might find that the creator of tetris has been threatening to take legal action against a large number of authors of 'Tetris' clones, for what they term as a 'look and feel copyright', the fact is that they are wrong, there is no such thing as a 'look and feel copyright', just like you cant copyright an idea.
you can not copyright rules to a game, you can copyright the written interpretation to those rules. the rules are only an idea.
you can not copyright an invention, that is what patents are for, an invention is an idea. however you can copyright the actual blueprints for that invention, blueprints are a representation of an idea.
in australia you may not copyright 3D objects, however, you can copyright 2D representations of those 3D images.
a 3D piece in a board game for example can not be copyrighted, the blueprints for makeing that piece, or sketches of that piece may be copyrighted
**please learn that ideas may not be copyrighted**
If you were to study copyright law, you would already know that a word, or a phrase, or a one-liner, may NOT be copyrighted.
Well, since everybody constantly uses ideas that others came up with on a daily bases, it becomes a gray issue.
Belial6, there are no grey issues, remember that ideas are not copyrighted, i dont know if english is your first language, but you still get confused between an idea, and a representation of an idea... proves to me that you dont know what you are talking about from the begining
What ideas are ok to use, and which are not are pretty much constucts of the copyright law itself.
Wrong. study it!You seem to be working off of the premise that copying someone is evil because it is illegal,
where have i said that? and i noted that you used the word 'someone' when i am talking about THINGS, i hope you are not trying to decieve, and deliberatly twist my words, by replacing 'somthing' with 'someone', you cant copyright a person, they can copyright their work
and thus should be illegal because it is evil. It's a circular argument.
point out where I have written a circular argument. you have just written a sentence that has nothing to do with anything that i have written, and you are implying that it is what i mean... it is not
I take all of the 'your a big dummy' jabs as attempts to prove me wrong without facts.
the fact is, that i have the facts(from copyright.org.au), and you dont know the facts, and dont understand copyright in general
It is a common tactic in such situations, when logic fails on the subject.
Belial6, you cant have a logical argument when you dont know what you are talking about
i would say that unless you are only playing dumb, you would think i am not logical, because you have no idea as to what copyright is about
And perhaps the points on everyone committing copyright violations hits a little to close to home.
Everyone?
Belial6, you dont seem to be the sort who would steal a persons car or vcr, and think its good, just because you dont believe in the right to private property.
i would hope that you wouldnt kill an innocent person just because 'once apon a time there were no laws against murder'
please tell me, Belial6, that you are not the sort of person who jumps on the bandwaggon when 'everybody' else is doing somthing that is moraly wrong
dont tell me that all the software publishers, authurs, artists view of wanting to protect their work; their IP, should be disregarded(irrespective of what the law says), just because you disagree with copyright
please dont say that you would choose to violate the rights of others just for the sake of picking up some free software, when there is plenty of legal(and perfectly moral) free software out there from users who choose to give it away
...that you as a pirate are right, and software developers are wrong for wanting to protect their work.
Belial6, i wouldnt like to hear that you are a pirate
because if i ever caught you pirating any of my programs, i would rip your ####ing balls off, and eat them for breakfast. and that would be perfectly ok, according to your logic, because once there was no law about that kind of thing, and its a kind of grey area anyway. perhaps the law is wrong, and people who believe in respecting other peoples rights, and choose to not violate the rights of others, should be shot or raped because you disagree with the rules that society has only recently put on people. and that if a person doesnt want their software copied, they shouldnt release it, and if they dont want their car stolen, they shouldnt leave them out on the street.
BTW Belial6, what is your view of anarchy?
-
@Spyros
The site has many old and rare utilities and games for many old computers. It would be a shame for them to disappear
No it wont, they are pirates, they need to be shut down, if you want old games goto Back2Roots (http://www.back2roots.org)
-
@Spyros
If you are talking about P.E. that is.
-
I cant believe people still care about pirate copies on the Amiga.
68k Amiga is a mostly dead gaming platform nowdays in a comercial view.
Sites offering games for download on the net is a great thing offering people who fondly remembers the Amiga a way of remembering its games. Its like a promotion.
And the thought that Tosec is the same as piracy is wrong. I have some issues with the Tosec project but lets not be so caught up in the 1992 Amiga piracy discussion, instead look forward -10 years forward- when anyone will be able to download the complete Amiga Tosec set in 30 minutes.
Thanks to the hard work by the Tosec crew today, Amiga games will be preserved for the future.
-
I cant believe people still care about pirate copies on the Amiga.
Haha!
Just becouse the software is old does not mean that the software developer should not give it away for free, im no coder but im guessin it aint easy to program even the simplest game. Its like you saying that coz the TV in your living room is 13 years old i can come in and watch it for free? I dont think so.
Kev :-D
-
iamaboringperson: Again, saying that I'm a bid dummy doesn't prove your right. Nothing you said actually refutes my statements, and in several places you did exactly what you were accusing me of. Is the discussion really worth physical threats? If you would like to take any point in my statement that you think is wrong, and state your opposition to it, I'd be happy to discuss it, but so far it has been, I make a statement and you call me a big dummy. That is not very convincing.
By the way, for all of those that are absolutists about copyright out there, it recently came to my attention that "Happy Birthday to you" is still under copyright, so before you start singing it to your loved ones, you might want to make sure that your not in violation. :-o
Happy Birthday, We'll Sue (http://www.snopes.com/music/songs/birthday.htm)
-
belial6, you seem to think that cause a text is copyrighted, you aren't allowed to sing it. That's wrong, check out the site that someone provided for you earlier. What you aren't allowed to do is make money off of it, or publish it without permission etc.
Your understanding of copyright is clearly wrong, sorry.
Read up about (c) and (tm) and then you'll understand why we are opposing you.
To the rest of you:
I'm not against old, abandoned games being put up on the net. The link that was provided in the original posting had fairly recent games, just a couple of years old and still on sale in many amiga shops, and the authors still active on either updates or new things.. and that, truly sucks. THAT was what I meant with the original posting. (I know I posted it for a friend - but this is my view on the matter.)
A sentence might have been edited out in the original post, that even named the games that was found there (I guess to make it harder to search on google or whatever) but here's a quote from the original posting
-----
new apc-tcp games , and games like apanosin etc..
no wonder people is giving up with developing
-----
I hope this clears things up. I'm not after old applications/drivers/whatever.. I'm after the pirates that holds fairly new games. ApanoSin is a re-release of an old game, sure. But there has been additional work on it. Not sure exactly when it was released, but it wasn't that long ago.
-
@NitrousB
The problem with back2roots is that they only have games. As far as old applications are concerned they only have AMOS Basic. The good thing about them is that they ask for permission from the copyright holders probably. P.E. on the other hand has many more old programs that back2roots doesn't have possibly because the later can't contact their authors. OK P.E. hasn't got permission but are these programs available for sale? If they were would anyone buy them? Well I wouldn't buy a 1986 ray-tracing program. Would you? These programs are useless today and I think the reason people download them is to have more complete collection of programs released on an old computer that they own. So, they are preserving old software although strictly speaking they are doing so illegaly. If this site closes down where will you find old applications? Definitely not at the stores, neither at back2roots for the reasons mentioned above.
I would consider them pirates if they offered StormC4 for download or Hollywood or a new game by Hyperion for example.
The programs that they offer for download are not competitive and are probably of no commercial interest to their authors.
-
@Spyro
But if you dont have the original then you have no right to it, maybe you can persuade C.A.P.S. (http://www.caps-project.org/) to add a utilities/aplications sections.
-
I don't know what country you are in, but the site pointed to (which was only functioning with a few pages) only Applies to Australia, which has far more liberal copyright laws than other parts of the world. Perticularly the U.S..
As for singing a copyrighted song. At least in the U.S., it is illegal to perform a copyrighted song in public. So, if you sing 'Happy Birthday to you' to your brother in your house, where only family members and a few close friends can hear, you are probably legal. If you go to a restaurant, and start belting out the song, you are making a public performance of a copyrighted song, and in violation of the copyright.
You obviously don't disagree with everything I said, as you state that you are not against old abandoned games being put on the net. That implies that you at least entertaine the idea that copyright is broken, and needs to be fixed.
The Australia/U.S. point, brings out a very good reason why saying copyright violation is "evil", is not reasonable. Perticularly when it is followed up with the statement that it is not evil because it is illegal, but that it is evil irrelevent to the law.
The reason this isn't reasonable is because copyright is by definition 'the law'. It is a construct our our legal systems. The definition changes as you cross borders.
Two thing to keep in mind... 1) I never said that copyright should go away. Just that it should be fixed to a more rational set of rules. 2) While our (U.S.) copyright laws are more restrictive than most places in the world. The money behind the legislation to harden copyright laws, usually starts in our legal system, and when it has taken our rights away, it moves to other countries to take theirs.
-
Haha! Just becouse the software is old does not mean that the software developer should not give it away for free
So, please do tell, where can I purchase a new (not second hand) copy of Chaos Engine? (I say brand new as otherwise the authors wouldnt get any money from it).
But if you dont have the original then you have no right to it, maybe you can persuade C.A.P.S. to add a utilities/aplications sections
So, ADF versions are illegal, but the CAPS versions of said software are fine.....?
NS
-
Belial6, im really getting sick of your ####, and this will be the last i will post on my knowledge of copyright, and my pro copyright stance on this thread.
Again, saying that I'm a bid dummy doesn't prove your right.
where have i called you a 'bi[g] dummy' - where have i been calling you names, or making it look as thought you are stupid? and i can agree with saying that you are a bid dummy doesn't prove you right, thats not my aim.
Nothing you said actually refutes my statements,
specifics.and in several places you did exactly what you were accusing me of.
Which is what?Is the discussion really worth physical threats?
there were no actual threats, i was simply making a point, you moron!
If you would like to take any point in my statement that you think is wrong, and state your opposition to it, I'd be happy to discuss it, but so far it has been, I make a statement and you call me a big dummy.
i dont think i have done that at all, i have shown you the evidence, i have shown you how you are wrong, i have not at all used personal insults
That is not very convincing.
i would agree, if only i had actually done what you say...
By the way, for all of those that are absolutists about copyright out there, it recently came to my attention that "Happy Birthday to you" is still under copyright, so before you start singing it to your loved ones, you might want to make sure that your not in violation.
...it still appears as though you dont understand copyright.
... as you state that you are not against old abandoned games being put on the net.
and where have i said that?
-
Hey _LinchpiN_,
I noticed you're using the Commodore logo as your avatar. I believe Tulip Computers owns the rights to the Commodore logo and trademark so isn't it a violation to be using it, especially since the logo is still in use? Tulip recently gave the rights to Ironstone to spin off Commodore 64 products and create an official C64 portal. It may even look like you're a Commodore representative. If you are, then I apologize and ask that you guys please release new C64 hardware (how about the C-1 computer?)
I'm sure nobody cares, just having a bit of a lark. ;-) ;-)
-CoolCPU - :roflmao:
-
@NightShade737
So, ADF versions are illegal, but the CAPS versions of said software are fine.....?
Why do people always try to twist other peoples words, did i say adfs were illegal? No! i even pointed out a site that distributes adfs (Legally)
-
@CoolCPU
Not a problem. Will change it now. Seems your "Mario Kart" avitar is copywrited also but seen as its on a.org, prob not your fault. Im guessin that most of the avatars here are proberbly some copywrite or another but never mind.. gotta keep on the right side of the law eh :-P
Cheers
Kev
-
Hi _LinchpiN_
Ahh... I'm sorry that you removed the avatar. I love seeing the old Commodore logo, it gives me a great sense of nostalgia. Tulip released a press release stating that they will be going after those who use the Commodore trademark for commercial purposes only, so I'm sure your fan usage of it won't cause any harm.
Same with the Mario graphic. I believe it is part of the default avatars in Xoops. There are hundreds of Nintendo fan sites, magazines, etc., using Nintendo characters and I don't believe anything has happened to them. I'm sure Nintendo knows about it, but they'd probably receive too much negative publicity if they were to start shutting down every fan site for having pictures of Mario on their web pages. Commercial usage would be different.
So, bring back your Commodore avatar or I shall not remove my new Atari 520ST avatar! It doesn't get much more immoral than this. :-D :-D
Just pulling your leg. I'll change it..... eventually. ;-)
-CoolCPU-
-
Lol i was only joking :-)
will bring it back no problem :-)
GET RID OF THAT SINNERS AVATAR!
Kev
-
I wonder if anyone would do anything about things like using logo's for avitars... i doubt it. But the proberbly could if they REALLY wanted to :-P
Anyway. Im gonna keep mine now :-) Looks good..
Cheers
Kev
-
Okay, since you changed back to the Commodore logo I've removed the Atari ST one. You can now look at your screen without fear. ;-)
-
_LinchpiN_,
Just a follow-up to the Commodore logo discussion. Someone posted an e-mail message on comp.sys.cbm from an Ironstone representative. Interesting...
From: "Darren Melbourne"
To: "Rick Balkins aka Wildstar"
Subject: RE: Commodore brand
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 21:51:48 +0100
Hi Richard
We have looked at the Wavestar site and at this time we see no problems. In the coming weeks we will be publishing the 'official' do's and don'ts at our website. These will also include all of the new Commodore logos that fan sites and non commercial sites are welcome to feature of their sites. If you have any further specific queries or issues then please do not hesitate to come back to us.
Best Regards
Darren Melbourne
Ironstone Web Site (http://www.ironstonepartners.com/)