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The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Amiga Emulation => Topic started by: Amiduffer on July 09, 2010, 04:05:13 AM
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I was using diskmaster with WinUAE last night on my Win7 Toshiba Satellite, and just for kicks, I started to poke around DH4: which is your windows "partition". Disturbingly, I started to run across programs and demos that I thought I had erased a while ago. 8( WTH! Are you telling me, that this "modern" operating system, and I use that term loosely, if you tell it to un-install a program, that it leaves all sorts of leftover crap?
I know that nothing ever gets really and truly "erased" from a harddrive without it physically being destroyed, but, this is rediculous! Geez. If I didn't need this digitizing program, I would have happily ditched Windows.
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I was using diskmaster with WinUAE last night on my Win7 Toshiba Satellite, and just for kicks, I started to poke around DH4: which is your windows "partition". Disturbingly, I started to run across programs and demos that I thought I had erased a while ago. 8( WTH! Are you telling me, that this "modern" operating system, and I use that term loosely, if you tell it to un-install a program, that it leaves all sorts of leftover crap?
I know that nothing ever gets really and truly "erased" from a harddrive without it physically being destroyed, but, this is rediculous! Geez. If I didn't need this digitizing program, I would have happily ditched Windows.
Quite old new there, as I understood your post all files from a regular uninstallation aint gone right? You can see quite alot of junk in your windows registry, now I got no clue what kind of files you where talking about tho, but run a quicky in regedit and youll find quite alot of junk.
Pease tell me what "programs and demos" as you called it you found, random roaming files? Old save folder? or did you just plain find it in the wTemp folder? Tell me more, since I got no clue what your definition is :)
Edit: A tip that I use is to allways run a registry reader when installing new apps/games and save the output, read trough it and when uninstalling something write a quicky that removes everything from the log associated with the installed application. That's atleast a good way to keep your register clean :)
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Actually that's probably not the OS. If the OEM or the software company did not write their script correctly, then the software could be left on the computer.
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uhhmm how did you erase them? Most programs do leave "trace" files and do not actually totally erase everything, depends on the uninstaller you use. There are also temp files, save files, registry keys ect... This is not a fault of Windows, but of sloppy programming by makers of software.
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And you'll often find that well-written installers do not remove files added or modified after the installation, e.g. configuration files and user data.
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Probably always some traces are left - at least a dedicated uninstall software seems to clean rests always after the original uninstaller has finished.
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I was using diskmaster with WinUAE last night on my Win7 Toshiba Satellite, and just for kicks, I started to poke around DH4: which is your windows "partition". Disturbingly, I started to run across programs and demos that I thought I had erased a while ago. 8( WTH! Are you telling me, that this "modern" operating system, and I use that term loosely, if you tell it to un-install a program, that it leaves all sorts of leftover crap?
I know that nothing ever gets really and truly "erased" from a harddrive without it physically being destroyed, but, this is rediculous! Geez. If I didn't need this digitizing program, I would have happily ditched Windows.
Yeah, a lot of stuff doesn't get uninstalled. Usually you have files and folders left behind and settings still there. Not to mention the registry which is a whole nother game.
If you go to C:\Program Files\ you will usually find left over folders of long gone programs.
The other one is C:\Program Files\Common Files folder. Look in there and search around in the shared folders in there and you will find stuff probably from old programs (Norton will have like 5 even after it is uninstalled.)
C:\Documents and Settings\... (C:\Users\.... in Win7) and the tons of folders in there (it's just a damn maze) there will be tons of stuff in there. Check adobe folders I have found a single 1GB left over file in the Adobe Reader folder in many systems. If you check the folder sizes and work your way down you will find huge amounts of garbage.
Then there are other places things are left behind like,
C:\Windows\
C:\Windows\System32\
C:\Windows\System32\drivers\
It hard to know what is left over and can be deleted in these folders though. Norton programs for example leave tons of stuff in those folders as well. Most of them start with Sym or you can right click on each file and it will tell you if it is a Symantec file. You can delete these.
It's pretty ridiculous that all that crap is left behind. That's why these days I try to find "Portable Apps" of software I have purchased. They work like Amiga programs. Just run everything out of a single folder.
Then you can reformat and reinstall Windows when you need and you don't have to reinstall all your Apps.
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This is not a fault of Windows, but of sloppy programming by makers of software.
Well, Windows really encourages such sloppyness. A simple Amiga programm doesn´t need an install process at all. Most of the time all installers-scripts really do is to make an assign. Windows is a cluttered os where nothing seems to have its proper place. Its hard to manage and most people end up just ignoring all the crap.
That being said - there is good software on Windows. WinUAE is the most sophisticated inranation of the Emulator ever. The performance of WinUAE on decent hardware is more than tolerable.
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Well, Windows really encourages such sloppyness. A simple Amiga programm doesn´t need an install process at all. Most of the time all installers-scripts really do is to make an assign. Windows is a cluttered os where nothing seems to have its proper place. Its hard to manage and most people end up just ignoring all the crap.
Windows encourages third party software companies to make sloppy nonsense? Thats news.
It's not hard to manage either. One day that myth might finally go away.
Also, a "simple" Amiga program defeats the purpose of argument here. Not to mention, getting things to work on Amiga isn't always a walk in the park.
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I was using diskmaster with WinUAE last night on my Win7 Toshiba Satellite, and just for kicks, I started to poke around DH4: which is your windows "partition". Disturbingly, I started to run across programs and demos that I thought I had erased a while ago. 8( WTH! Are you telling me, that this "modern" operating system, and I use that term loosely, if you tell it to un-install a program, that it leaves all sorts of leftover crap?
I know that nothing ever gets really and truly "erased" from a harddrive without it physically being destroyed, but, this is rediculous! Geez. If I didn't need this digitizing program, I would have happily ditched Windows.
do a search for "CCleaner" with google ... learn how to use it and your system will thank you! :-)
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Also, a "simple" Amiga program defeats the purpose of argument here. Not to mention, getting things to work on Amiga isn't always a walk in the park.
I disagree. Most "simple" Amiga program work straight from where you unarchive them. I've found very few "simple" Windows programs that don't require you to "install" them. That's one of the things I LOVE about the Amiga. If I want to try out a program, I can usually unarchive it RAM: and run it. If I don't like it, the next time I boot my computer it won't be there, none of it, no left over junk.
Not to mention, getting things to work on Amiga isn't always a walk in the park.
True. I've have install scripts fail on me on the Amiga. But if a Windows install fails on you, you're pretty much screwed. If an Amiga install fails, it's a LOT easier to figure out how to install it manually. (Especially with tools like SnoopDOS that let you see where programs are trying to find files)
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bonus points when installing something f's up your registry or mangles some required dll.
Installing an application should never be able to compromise the core system files, ever.
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http://www.revouninstaller.com/ is a godsend to me. The Pro version can create a script that records an install to be able to thoroughly remove registry settings.
The standard version is still miles better than the std uninstaller and really should be on everyones PC.
You'd (probably not) be amazed how much info is stored in the ProgramData folder, rather than in the Program Files folder.
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do a search for "CCleaner" with google ... learn how to use it and your system will thank you! :-)
Well. Come back the next morning and see that you've hit a sore spot with others. ^~^ Oh the stories! Makes me appreciate the simplicity of installing something on Amiga. Put this file in C:, put that file in Libs:, put that file where-ever you want, put this line in user-startup.
A recent horror story is Ad-aware going to hell in a handbasket, and then the uninstall failing, and then Windows telling me that I can't erase the folder because certain files are connected to other files 'somewhere else'. Don't get me started on how much time I had to waste cleaning Norton out the system. The demo was the Aquaria demo. After finishing it, I ran the uninstall, but, there's still a folder with some random files left behind. Granted, its a few guys doing the programing, so perhaps you might get some sloppiness in housecleaning.
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I disagree. Most "simple" Amiga program work straight from where you unarchive them. I've found very few "simple" Windows programs that don't require you to "install" them. That's one of the things I LOVE about the Amiga. If I want to try out a program, I can usually unarchive it RAM: and run it. If I don't like it, the next time I boot my computer it won't be there, none of it, no left over junk.
True. I've have install scripts fail on me on the Amiga. But if a Windows install fails on you, you're pretty much screwed. If an Amiga install fails, it's a LOT easier to figure out how to install it manually. (Especially with tools like SnoopDOS that let you see where programs are trying to find files)
RAM: is good, I use(d) it for the exact same thing.
Windows gets more crappy apps than the Amiga, but thats more down to popularity.
Windows isn't that hard to tidy up, it's just something new to learn.
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It's not hard to manage either. One day that myth might finally go away.
They get better at hiding the complexities, but in my workplace (Windows XP) there are regulary occasions, when something stopped working and we have to re-run installers to get it fixed, even though the same patches that were causing the problem were applied to 20 virually identical boxes that didn´t have issues.
After a while Nobody really cares anymore. All they will tell you is: well, this happens .. just re-run the installer.
At home (Windows 7) is much less troublesome (it runs less software of course), but one box came pre-installed with a lot of crap (like Notons cloud backup ...) and it´s already hard to find out which app is causing the annoying behaviour.
Every OS sucks! And Windows is a brilliant example for that fact.
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Well, Windows really encourages such sloppyness.
uh, what?
Program installers in *nix (make install, apget, and such) can, and sometimes do, scatter crap around the system. Some Solaris packages do not remove all of their parts. And Amiga programs can do the same damned thing. Oh, and so can, and do, some Mac programs.
The operating system is irrelevant against sloppy, lazy, or incompetent programmers. Morons are morons irrespective of the logo on the machine.
A simple Amiga programm doesn´t need an install process at all.
Cool. I guess I can remove Installer. Less facetiously, yes, a simple program with a simple binary or two can just be copied into place -- we do it all the time with programs like lzx, SGrab, etc. More complex programs can be done manually as well, but Installer sure does make the process much simpler.
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Complex programs on the pc interact with the os and hardware in ways that a simple installer or no installer would not setup properly. This is like comparing a simple dos or c64 program with a multitasking AREXX aware program on the amiga. If it isn't setup properly it won't work.
Since a good proportion of amiga programs won't even install on the hard drive without some pretty decent effort and your pc sounds like it is running properly I don't really see your point, other than slagging off on the evil windows os that most of the world uses.
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Hi,
One of the best ways to describe the difference between windows and Amiga is:
1. on windows does anyone really know what is being installed, where it is being installed and how its installer really works?
2. On Amiga same question as above but if you don't know you can usually use a text editor and look at the install script (some MAC owners will have a problem in this area) and a lot of times the Amiga pop ups will tell you what is missing and where, so you just look for it and put it there.
3. You really don't need a 4 year college course on how to overbloat programming on an Amiga.
4. If you do take a microbloat college course, then you will really know how to complicate things and really screw up computers.
5. On a MAC you really don't know how to do anything with a computer.
It is rummored that the only instruction page a MAC user has is a picture of where the on switch is at. Most MAC owners don't know it but if you look under the picture of the on switch there are actually printed words there telling you how to use the on switch along with the pictures.
Peace
smerf
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Complex programs on the pc interact with the os and hardware in ways that a simple installer or no installer would not setup properly. This is like comparing a simple dos or c64 program with a multitasking AREXX aware program on the amiga. If it isn't setup properly it won't work.
Since a good proportion of amiga programs won't even install on the hard drive without some pretty decent effort and your pc sounds like it is running properly I don't really see your point, other than slagging off on the evil windows os that most of the world uses.
Hi,
The only reason most of the world uses windows, is because Bill Gates made it so. Microsoft used money power and threats in order to get this monopoly. Case in point, why is there no games being made for Linux, and MAC users by such companies like EA, Ubi, Activision, etc.
I just named two powerful OS's that are being derailed by microsoft, and possibly JOBS. Microsoft saying that if companies support other platforms that there microsoft license may be voided and JOBS not wanting any other software co. programming for MACS.
and
By the way
other countries are beginning to see microsofts plan, and are dropping them for LINUX.
To think that I paid $159 for Microsoft home when I had Linux for free.
Oh well silly me.
Well got to run, I am going to re-do my computer again, you know the six month thing with micro soft.
smerf
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Well got to run, I am going to re-do my computer again, you know the six month thing with micro soft.
There's another one of those silly Windows misconceptions.
I administer an office full of XP machines, many of which are still running the original install of Windows they came with from Dell back in 2004. (Service packed and patched, of course.)
..and yes, those are some old machines.
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There's another one of those silly Windows misconceptions.
I administer an office full of XP machines, many of which are still running the original install of Windows they came with from Dell back in 2004. (Service packed and patched, of course.)
..and yes, those are some old machines.
Hi,
Know what you mean by old machines, I am using a Dell now as one of my experimental computers for things like AROS, different Linux OS's, and Amiga forever.
and
Yes I can see why you stick up for micro crap, after all that is your job and how you make your bucks, now lets get down to the real reason that these machines stay up and running with out the 6 month thing, which is probably nightly backups, constant upgrades (don't know if this is all good though since most of my problems came from upgrades) limited use by personnel, in other words you keep them locked out of a lot of stuff, and give very few people administrative rights. You also have them locked out of a lot of internet sites, that is if you let them use the internet.
Not only that but WinXP is probably the best windows OS for being problem free, although Windows 7 is close.
Bet you can't say that you have done only one backup since 2004, but I can say that with my Amiga 4000 I have done only one backup since 1992 and I use my computer every day, and by the way I have upgraded my computer to OS 3.5 and OS 3.9 and used my one backup to bring in all my important data, now I am not going t say how many times that backup was upgraded to save new material, lharc is a wonderful program for this.
Well that is one thing Microsoft has done good for the world, it has created lots of jobs keeping there crappy OS running.
smerf
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We never back up the workstations.
Until last year, they were still running on 256MB or 512MB of RAM, at which point I got them all to over 1GB. Most of them are on their original 20GB and 40GB hard drives.
All of our users also have administrative rights to the machines, many of them are software developers but even administrative staff have full access to their machines. Internet is wide open, nothing blocked, and these are daily use machines.
These machines are mostly hands-off when it comes to administration, I'm the only system administrator at a company of 100 employees.
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We never back up the workstations.
Until last year, they were still running on 256MB or 512MB of RAM, at which point I got them all to over 1GB. Most of them are on their original 20GB and 40GB hard drives.
All of our users also have administrative rights to the machines, many of them are software developers but even administrative staff have full access to their machines. Internet is wide open, nothing blocked, and these are daily use machines.
These machines are mostly hands-off when it comes to administration, I'm the only system administrator at a company of 100 employees.
I think its safe to say your case is an exception. The place I work at has a constant flow of PC issues with their (mostly) XP stations. Stations are restored from images pretty routinely to keep everything chugging along.
From my school experience this was the same, though back then, it was win 95 and 98 mainly.
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Windows isn't that hard to tidy up, it's just something new to learn.
If you know what you are removing. With the registry it is really hard.
Taking Norton again, if you un-install and use their reg clean up tools, many search the registry for Symantec, Norton, etc there still keys that are left over. There is hardly anyway to know what they go to and even Symantec probably doesn't know all the keys they leave behind.
{0A624A66-269C-11d3-80F4-00C04F68D969}
{11B529F0-7697-11d2-B34C-00104B22D5DF}
{4F9765D0-7907-11d2-B34C-00104B22D5DF}
{5DD3E8C0-7763-11d2-B34C-00104B22D5DF}
{5E07EBA4-B771-11d5-8152-00C04F68D969}
{7D604BFE-AC8F-11d1-9250-0060979C3468}
{CED9D6EE-B91A-11d5-8153-00C04F68D969}
{F01B4B50-775A-11d2-B34C-00104B22D5DF}
{0FD7D204-F362-11D2-80EB-00C04F68D969}
{103363F4-69F9-11D2-B34C-00104B22D5DF}
{7b77f3ef-b300-4413-8a80-6827fe37b694}
{F7B888EE-D30C-11D2-91BE-0020AF24FE3C}
{B2F04430-034A-11D3-9B19-00104B279EC4}
Are a few left over Norton keys and usually each is located in several places. I use to use a program that watched how many keys were added when a program was installed. Many programs add 3000+ reg keys.
Files are easy enough to clean up(even if spread all over). The windows registry on the other hand is just awful. Wish they would spend their billions finding a better option after all these years.
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@AmigaHeretic
So other than the fact you are aware it is left there... does it really matter?
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Well that is one thing Microsoft has done good for the world, it has created lots of jobs keeping there crappy OS running.
smerf
Windows is crap, yes that is a known issue.
:)
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Easy fix: Change to a Linux distro and run Windows in a virtualbox. If it you get too much junk, delete a HDD file and use a back up.
Otherwise there is XP Lite which installs the minimal functions so it easier to see if something is there that shouldn't be.
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@AmigaHeretic
So other than the fact you are aware it is left there... does it really matter?
Speed is the first thing, but left over keys can cause problems.
Yeah, (I used to work for Symentec tech support) some left over keys can keep certain programs from installing correctly, some times when you install another program you loose internet access. The left over sym* files in system32 are pretty notorious from still blocking internet access under certain circumstances, like you removed Norton and then installed Mcaffe and loose internet connection. Then you immediately start troubleshooting Mcaffe when it is really left over Norton pieces.
Those left over reg entries have been known to cause problems when installing a new NIC. Usually a USB one.
Again, though the biggest problem with ending up with 10,000s of keys left behind in the registry over time is speed.
The actual physical reg files are stored in C:\windows\system32\config
they are usually the files "sam, security, system, software, default, sometimes userdiff"
The files are huge with clean install. A single one of those might start out at 20MB by itself on a clean Windws install. Not a reg expert, but I assume it loads these files and constantly searches them for settings when loading and using programs.
If you are a person that likes to install and test a lot programs then un-install them, then these files just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Then it takes longer for the programs you actually have installed to use and to search the reg files.
One reg file can normally be over 100MB. That's bigger than some OS installs. Add the fact that there are several separate reg files and you can end up with hundreds of megabytes of crap reg info slowing the system. Making your programs start up slower etc.
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I think its safe to say your case is an exception. The place I work at has a constant flow of PC issues with their (mostly) XP stations. Stations are restored from images pretty routinely to keep everything chugging along.
I would say not. I have workstations at several sites which are running XP loads which are now over four years old. They have not replaced the machines due to budget constraints, but we have upgraded most of them to 1GB of memory.
In my professional experience -- and before anyone jumps on the "dfense of microshaft shyte" bandwagon, know that I support and work on several operating systems, so shove it -- when any of these machines have had to be reloaded, and especially numerous times, we finally tracked the problem to bad hardware. In could, in fact, quantify the problem if I went through my notes of the past eight years to specific percentages of failures which were hard drives, RAM, and motherboard, in that order. In a couple of cases a bad video card was the culprit.
A lot of people will quickly blame a driver when it crashes. Frankly, it is an amateur mistake and pretty common. The driver will crash, the updated driver will crash, so the assumption is the driver is crap and replacement hardware is installed. Voila, accidental solution. But what really happens is the failed hardware causes the driver to crash, and usually only happens, especially in the case of video cards, once Windows activates the advanced features of the device. So, then it looks like Windows did it.
15 years professional experience in this industry and I can tell you with full confidence that there are a good number of people out there who will curse and swear at the wrong things, presenting themselves as experts, but each is really a rank amateur with not a real clue of how things work.
Those kinds of people make me a good deal of money.
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Easy fix: Change to a Linux distro and run Windows in a virtualbox. If it you get too much junk, delete a HDD file and use a back up.
Otherwise there is XP Lite which installs the minimal functions so it easier to see if something is there that shouldn't be.
Yup
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Files are easy enough to clean up(even if spread all over). The windows registry on the other hand is just awful. Wish they would spend their billions finding a better option after all these years.
The registry is just like a file system. Registry keys are no different to files.
If symantec wrote Amiga virus checkers, they would find a way to screw over your installation.
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There are drawbacks and quirks to any software system, and no matter how carefully designed Windows is it has more than just Microsoft fiddling with it. If we were locked into only one video, audio, i/o, etc. chipset and programs limited to only a couple megs of ram and floppy discs things would be very different.
This is how Apple computers potentially are more stable. I say potentially because a friend of mine has had more crashes and problems on his mac laptop than I have had on my xp laptop, my wifes 7 laptop and my xp desktop combined.
Amiga os increased significantly in size and complexity from os 1.3 to 3.9 and if it had been updated another half dozen times would likely have rivaled xp in complexity and problems.
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The registry is just like a file system. Registry keys are no different to files.
I what way do you mean? The reg files are just one big .txt file basically. That is why it's slower for the OS to search through the bigger it gets.
Programs like "regedit" load the text file and arrange it so it looks like it's arranged more like your typical directory structure, but it's got no real directory structure of course.
The main problem really is that there is no way for a person to clean it.
If a program installs keys like {58512179-5E5E-4431-B982-621CD856B1F9} and all the key values don't indicate what program it's from, how do I know if it is left over or something important?
You can export all the reg files combined into one big file. Just open regedit minimize all the branches until just "Computer" is showing, highlight it and then choose export. You have a huge text file of your entire registry.
If anyone ever has the chance, do a clean Windows install and export the registry to a single file. Then install Adobe Reader and Quicktime. Export the reg again to a 2nd file. You can compare these in your favorite text edit programs(use something like ExamDiff to compare them at once and see what has been added). Now uninstall Adobe Reader and Quicktime and then export a 3rd text file. Compare the 1st and 3rd to see how much is left over.
Then figure out how you could possibly ever identify all the leftover stuff in the 3rd file, let alone clean it with out making Windows fail to ever boot again.
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I what way do you mean? The reg files are just one big .txt file basically. That is why it's slower for the OS to search through the bigger it gets.
Programs like "regedit" load the text file and arrange it so it looks like it's arranged more like your typical directory structure, but it's got no real directory structure of course.
No. The registry is stored as a hierarchical database. It's nothing at all like a big .txt file.
The main problem really is that there is no way for a person to clean it.
If a program installs keys like {58512179-5E5E-4431-B982-621CD856B1F9} and all the key values don't indicate what program it's from, how do I know if it is left over or something important?
There's generally no reason for a person to clean it.
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No. The registry is stored as a hierarchical database. It's nothing at all like a big .txt file.
There's generally no reason for a person to clean it.
Which is basically one big text file. I don't know what data structure the text is in nor the BigO() search times, but no matter what the more data you have the slower the search, regardless of the structure.
If 2/3 of your registry is un-used information then you are just slowing things down.
Again, I mostly talking about people that install, uninstall lots of programs to test them, etc. The older your Windows install gets the slower the reg will get. On the Amiga this is non issue as there is no registry. We can unLha stuff to ram. If it's not what we want the delete it or reboot.
If you have an office computer that has a pre-setup sytem and nothing ever really changes then the reg will stay the same size and this is a non-issue. As far as the registry I'm saying I know a better way than the way MS does it. Other than not having one at all.
As far as I know the only real way to clean the registry when it gets old, scary, and hairy is a reformat reinstall.
EDIT:
Obviously when I talk about searching the registry, pretty much every operation done to the registry requires a search right? Find, Modify, Add, Delete. If a program wants to find a setting it has to do a 'search', if it is changing a setting it has to do a 'search' to find it to change, if you are installing software or a program is adding things it has to 'search' to find where that information goes, if you are uninstalling or a program is deleting a setting from the reg it has to 'search' for what it needs to be delete.
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I what way do you mean? The reg files are just one big .txt file basically. That is why it's slower for the OS to search through the bigger it gets.
Actually, the Windows registry is a modified binary-tree database which uses the Jet database engine to operate, much like just about every other system database: Active Directory, DHCP server, DNS server, etc. With the exception that at boot, ntldr determines the size of the SYSTEM hive and loads it in its entirety into paged pool memory.
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Actually, the Windows registry is a modified binary-tree database which uses the Jet database engine to operate, much like just about every other system database: Active Directory, DHCP server, DNS server, etc. With the exception that at boot, ntldr determines the size of the SYSTEM hive and loads it in its entirety into paged pool memory.
So search times are Θ(log n) in the average case and Ω(n) in the worst case?
n is the number of registry entries. So the more n the slower it is.
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So search times are Θ(log n) in the average case and Ω(n) in the worst case?
n is the number of registry entries. So the more n the slower it is.
Relevant to my point how? Yes, I took those classes in CS as well (with flying colors,) and, really, search performance in a memory-based registry file is almost irrelevant in terms versus computing power available. In any case, we can only theorize to the performance of the registry unless we run our own tests against it since Microsoft is well known for not publishing performance benchmarks.
But in any case, my point was not to argue semantics of search algorithms but rather to displace misinformation which seems to flow freely in bashing circles -- irrespective of what is being bashed.
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Relevant to my point how? Yes, I took those classes in CS as well (with flying colors,) and, really, search performance in a memory-based registry file is almost irrelevant in terms versus computing power available. In any case, we can only theorize to the performance of the registry unless we run our own tests against it since Microsoft is well known for not publishing performance benchmarks.
But in any case, my point was not to argue semantics of search algorithms but rather to displace misinformation which seems to flow freely in bashing circles -- irrespective of what is being bashed.
Your point? Some was asked me why you would want a clean registry. Among other things I suggest it will slow the system down. A 20MB reg file but it is filled with 80MB of garbage for a total of 100MB.
The only clrear fact is that the registry gets bloated with crap overtime. If you think there is no speed penalty for loading in a 100MB file vs a 20MB files and dealing with that data, then I guess we are at a disagreement.
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@AmigaHeretic
So do you have any benchmarks showing how much it affects application performance?
Oh and do you think my amiga apps would run faster if I cleaned out old gunk from envarc: too?
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Wow, how big is your envarc: after getting? I know Amiga file systems might be slow to find things, but when an application wants a setting, it doesn't touch the envarc:, just env: which is RAM based like the registry. The difference is you're extremely unlikely to have anywhere near as many entries in env: as you have in your registry. Finding a particular file should be almost instantaneous, even with the lack of processing horsepower in Amigas.
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So search times are Θ(log n) in the average case and Ω(n) in the worst case?
n is the number of registry entries. So the more n the slower it is.
All search algorithms get slower as the number of items to search increases. O(log n) is typical for tree search. A hundred fold increase in N does not equate to a hundred fold increase in time taken.
Searching through a flat file database almost certainly faster than trawling through a directory tree to find an environment variable...
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Actually, the Windows registry is a modified binary-tree database which uses the Jet database engine to operate, much like just about every other system database: Active Directory, DHCP server, DNS server, etc. With the exception that at boot, ntldr determines the size of the SYSTEM hive and loads it in its entirety into paged pool memory.
Yep this is correct. Large reg files will affect system performance at boot but this is not the only culprit. It will slow your boot up times but after that it is other crap that is running in the background. All the useless loaders and TSR's hogging up resources. Drives that are not defragged or organized well.
One of the things I do at my shop is "Tune Up's" for Windows based machines. Most users that aren't "geeks" just have no clue what it takes for maintenance on thier machines. This is what I do for a TuneUp.
1. Delete all temp files. Windows,Office Internet ect.(Keep Passwords)
2. Empty Recycle Bin.
3. Drive space and partitions permitting, Move My Documents to a different drive or partition. The messier your system drive the longer it takes to load.
4. Reg Backup before cleaning.
4 Clean registry with CCleaner or Regvac. I have an average of about 1000 invalid entries per machine but have seen some in the 10,000.
4. Defrag the drive(s) with a good defrag program. I use PerfectDisk but there are some very good free ones out there. Don't use the Windows Defrag. All it does is tighten up the drive. If your drive(s) get fragged really bad (45%+)it might be best to start over because you will almost never get it cleaned up.
5. Depending on the amount of Ram and Drive space I adjust the Virtual Memory. Windows does a terrible job at this. This is mostly for machines with a gig or less but it can be beneficial for power users also.
6. Reg Tweaks for a lot of things but this depends on the user. Google is your friend!
Another thing I do is virus/ad/mal scanning as well as duplicate file removal on all machines that I tune.
I have been running the same install of XP on this specific machine for almost 3 years now because I am anal about maintenance. Here are my rules.
1. Defrag after each install or uninstall. Use a second party uninstaller like Revo.
2. Run CCleaner or RegVac weekly.
3. Keep all data files separate from System. I run 3 partitions... System, Programs, Data. System is on a drive by itself.
4. Most important if you can...BACKUP.
5. Defrag at no more than 20%. Defrag sys files on startup also. Some programs defrag constantly if the PC is idle.
6. Do a hard start every day.(If you leave your machine on.)
7. Delete temp files every week.
8. Remove or archive downloads.
There is much more you can do but these are the basics.
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All search algorithms get slower as the number of items to search increases. O(log n) is typical for tree search. A hundred fold increase in N does not equate to a hundred fold increase in time taken.
No, you're right, it would increase at 'log n'. How many keys are in an actually registry? I don't know that I've seen a way to count them. You can figure out how many bytes all your hives are and usually that is in 10's or 100's or millions of bytes.
How often are the hives being searched? How often is actually modifying keys and sorting?
Searching through a flat file database almost certainly faster than trawling through a directory tree to find an environment variable...
If we are talking ENV: vs registry, there are maybe 50 files in my registry? vs millions of entries in my reg?
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If we are talking ENV: vs registry, there are maybe 50 files in my registry? vs millions of entries in my reg?
Sure, there are millions... Thousands, perhaps. Millions? Mope. Unless you've installed and removed new software every other day for the last 10 years and never once cleaned out the registry :)
Looking up a file on disk is not quicker than traversing a tree structure in memory. Absolutely no way.
You can write code to prove this to yourself, if you wish.
Put N named variables into N files in a directory and write a function that, given the name as a string, opens the file and retrieves the value. Time how long it takes to retrieve any named value.
Now, write code that puts the same N values into a trie structure and serializes it into a file. This is your "registry" file.
Now write a function that loads said file and rebuilds said trie file on first access and looks up your names variable and time how long it takes to retrieve any named value.
The only time it will ever be slower than the first method is the first time, when the trie data must be rebuilt in memory.
Every subsequent access will be orders of magnitude faster than asking the filesystem to open a file and retrieve the contents.
I know this, because I've had to write code that relies on such data structures.
I'm not defending MS here but people assume that because MS implement the registry in a somewhat stupid way (that being it never compacts after keys are removed) that the concept of a registry is a stupid idea altogether. It isn't.
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@Amiduffer: how do you remove (completely I mean) an MUI program that will have installed some MCC classes ?
No, don't tell me you'll find some undeleted items in MUI:libs after having deleted the program's directory...
Seeing the mess MUI became, the settings that are saved sometimes in env: sometimes in envarc:, with no default time for settings: sometimes it's binary, sometimes it's text,... I don't think you can point the Windows registry.
There are nice things about the Amiga, and bad things about Windows. But the registry surely isn't that bad. Even Linux uses some kind of DataBase for APT for example... The implementation may no be that good, but the registry idea isn't a bad idea.
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I what way do you mean? The reg files are just one big .txt file basically. That is why it's slower for the OS to search through the bigger it gets.
Programs like "regedit" load the text file and arrange it so it looks like it's arranged more like your typical directory structure, but it's got no real directory structure of course.
You've got completely the wrong idea about how it works. You need to go and read up more before you can make informed arguments.
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There are nice things about the Amiga, and bad things about Windows. But the registry surely isn't that bad. Even Linux uses some kind of DataBase for APT for example... The implementation may no be that good, but the registry idea isn't a bad idea.
Just about any remotely modern desktop or server OS you care to point at will have some form of database type system to handle the sorts of things that windows registry does.
As you and others state, having such a system isn't an inherently bad thing, even if a given example has some weaknesses.
--edit--
Also:
MUI
/thread.
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You've got completely the wrong idea about how it works. You need to go and read up more before you can make informed arguments.
I seems like you are telling me the more items you have to search the same speed it goes.
If you really have that solution please post it here.
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I seems like you are telling me the more items you have to search the same speed it goes.
It does search at the same speed. Over a larger number of entries. Unless you do something really, really stupid.
The registry isn't a text file. It is a database file, which is a tree.
The time it takes will obviously increase as the database gets larger, but , but it is far quicker than going through individual text and binary files and that speed difference will only become more apparent as the number of text/binary files increases.
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All very interesting. Seems to me whilst the registry is a necessary thing, its negative effects on system performance is what concerns users.
There's no doubt the more stuff you install in Windows, the longer the boot time, even if none of the installed executables are executed at boot time. And then the executables themselves take longer to start. If you then uninstall the executables, your boot time or applications start up times don't improve. Why is that?
On Amiga, the mere act of installing an app doesn't appreciably increase boot time, in my experience. Ofcourse if that app RUNS at boot time, boot time will increase. But just installing it and running it once doesn't make much difference to the boot time afterwards, nor does it affect the start up time of other apps.
If I install an app in AmigaOS, then uninstall it, and it leaves debris behind its relatively simple to identify which debris belonged to that app, as most of the time files are written to sensibly-named OS directories or the user-startup text files, usually an assign:, and have sensible names. And apart form taking up miniscule amounts of hard drive space, I could leave them there without suffering appreciably diminished OS performance.
Conversely, I wouldn't even think about deleting any system files from Windows or Linux.
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@Amiduffer: how do you remove (completely I mean) an MUI program that will have installed some MCC classes ?
No, don't tell me you'll find some undeleted items in MUI:libs after having deleted the program's directory...
Seeing the mess MUI became, the settings that are saved sometimes in env: sometimes in envarc:, with no default time for settings: sometimes it's binary, sometimes it's text,... I don't think you can point the Windows registry.
The VAST majority of amiga software that i have installed on my hard drive may add assign to user startup. Some may add something in Libs, Devs, or L or C, env or envarc. If they do, then these files have sensible names that identify which app installed them.
Using MUI as an example, if the equivalent software ie a GUI replacement system, were installed for Windows or Linux-where people do run KDE and Gnome- what would be more difficult to do: finding and deleting MUI debris, or finding and deleting the equivalent in Windows or Linux?
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On Amiga, the mere act of installing an app doesn't appreciably increase boot time, in my experience. Ofcourse if that app RUNS at boot time, boot time will increase. But just installing it and running it once doesn't make much difference to the boot time afterwards, nor does it affect the start up time of other apps.
Yes and no. I make Assign and a few other commands resident at boot time because of the obscene number of assignments which happen throughout the boot due to the types and number of programs I have installed.
Part of the problem with Windows is the Internet cache. Its database is ALWAYS active, so if you have a full and cluttered Internet cache, which is 10% (or 20%, I cannot recall which) of your hard drive by default, that is quite a lot of space. 24GB for a 120GB hard drive at 20%, and so on.
Then there is Windows Search, which should be uninstalled if you have it. I actually caught it preventing programs from being installed. Seriously, Microsoft? I will say this about Microsoft, they cannot do search, never have and never will. Back in the day when their support site used Inktomia for searching it worked and worked WELL. Then Microsoft programmed their own search and it cannot find crap. Outlook search cannot find crap. I use Google to search Microsoft's KBAs now. Ridiculous.
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The time it takes will obviously increase as the database gets larger
That's was my only point.
As I said I don't have a better solution than for Windows registry.
EDIT:
My original posts were also suggesting that it is hard for a human to run the registry. The problem is the registry is powerful. One issue I see is clutter/speed. There are many other issues with the registry, like a program(virus) can change single entry in a key and you can no longer run any exe's, can't run your AntiVirus, etc...
HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\exefile\shell\open\command
Changing this value: "%1" %*
How many people have formated there systems becaue a virus changes that single key? Easily a decade later there that key sits in Win7 still.
http://www.computerhope.com/forum/index.php?topic=107089.0
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Using MUI as an example, if the equivalent software ie a GUI replacement system, were installed for Windows or Linux-where people do run KDE and Gnome- what would be more difficult to do: finding and deleting MUI debris, or finding and deleting the equivalent in Windows or Linux?
Assuming that the person performing this task was as conversant with the inner workings of both OS's, it would be fairly even.
Difference is that it takes a lot longer to get as knowledgeable with Linux than a relatively simple OS like AmigaOS.
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I seems like you are telling me the more items you have to search the same speed it goes.
If you really have that solution please post it here.
Solution to what? That the more data you have the longer it takes to search it? Same goes for ENV: etc. If you could solve that problem then oracle and sybase would not have a business.
Windows is more complex than AmigaOS because it allows you to do more. If you're happy with AmigaOS for everything then use that. I stopped around ten years ago because it was the right time for me to move over to Windows XP. Windows 95 was similarish in terms of stability and ease of use to AmigaOS, but it didn't warrant me to spend out that much money.
I don't want to diss AmigaOS but it has more flaws than recent versions of Windows, even if some of the concepts are nice & haven't made it onto any other operating system.
FWIW I was using my a500 last night, but retro games and demos are like classic cars. Nice to own and run at the weekend, but not an every day thing.
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I was using diskmaster with WinUAE last night on my Win7 Toshiba Satellite, and just for kicks, I started to poke around DH4: which is your windows "partition". Disturbingly, I started to run across programs and demos that I thought I had erased a while ago. 8( WTH! Are you telling me, that this "modern" operating system, and I use that term loosely, if you tell it to un-install a program, that it leaves all sorts of leftover crap?
I know that nothing ever gets really and truly "erased" from a harddrive without it physically being destroyed, but, this is rediculous! Geez. If I didn't need this digitizing program, I would have happily ditched Windows.
windows 7 and vista have a backup feature(more as the trashcan).it use some diskspace and all you delete come to here.if there is not enough room for new delete, then old is delete.
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I seems like you are telling me the more items you have to search the same speed it goes.
If you really have that solution please post it here.
It's a question of how much longer it takes. Searching a properly configured tree is at worst O(log N) and can do better. However, that only describes the general shape of the curve. The fact is that tree searches are fast. A search is more dependent on the length of the key than it is the number of entries in the tree.
As part of my previous job, I wrote a billing system for a voice system. In order to work out what basic pricing plan was required for a given call, you had to look up the number. Not all of it, but find the longest matching prefix and use whatever pricing code it pointed to.
We had a database with literally hundreds of thousands of number prefixes in it that each mapped to info/price data. Prefixes could be as long as an entire phone number, but typically varied from just 2 digits up to 10 or so.
The code loaded these into a trie, where you had a node structure in which there were up to 10 child nodes (one per digit) and a pointer to a data record (if any) for the current node.
Take a number, and pointing at the root of the trie, for each successive digit, attempt to get the next child node, until you get to a leaf node. Along the way, collect any data record entries so that you can build a breakdown of the number (eg UK National / Manchester / Rusholme).
Despite having around a million nodes in the trie, searching it was lighting fast. You exhaust the search as soon as you hit a leaf node, so your number might be 14 digits, but your longest match might be found after just 6.
This code (written in straight C++) was capable of performing over 15 million such lookups a second on the machine. The actual application, which needed to process data from several database tables and output them to another was entirely IO bound in the end.
In short, searching a tree structure is not slow.
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Windows is more complex than AmigaOS because it allows you to do more. If you're happy with AmigaOS for everything then use that.
You are responding to me, but it feels like you are talking to yourself.
I never said that I don't like Windows. I never said I even use Amiga OS anymore.
I probably use Windows 98% of the time. The other 2% is AROS.
I clearly stated twice that I don't have a better solution to the registry than MS does.
Failing that the registry does suck. You want to argue about ENV: well that was the whole point of the original poster. If I have program I just delete the folder. Everything is gone. It's not that easy on Windows. If I want to delete all the "settings" I go into ENV: and delete a "single" file named "ThisProgsSettings". On Windows this isn't even possible for most programs.
Amiga less clutter, Windows more clutter. There is little doubt about that.
As far a real life performance with a crap filled registry? It is slower. Do a Google search. There is an entire industry around speeding up, cleaning up, repairing the registry. If it so fast to search no matter the clutter and conditions than why in the real world does it slow down your machine so much?
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If I have program I just delete the folder. Everything is gone.
Are you sure about that? The progam didn't install a library, overwrite SetPatch, modify S:Startup-Sequence, or any of the other things Amiga software tends to do? There is no standard "uninstall" process on the Amiga.
On Windows this isn't even possible for most programs.
That is not the fault of the registry.
There is an entire industry around speeding up, cleaning up, repairing the registry.
I think you've misunderstood the market. It's not fixing a problem, it's selling an unnecessary product to unsuspecting, uneducated, and paranoid users. Belief in a thing by a majority of people does not necessarily make a thing true.
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That is not the fault of the registry.
No it's the fault of Microsoft. Glad they didn't skip using folders on the HD. Just throw all the files in the root of C: users shouldn't be sorting stuff out anyway.
I think you've misunderstood the market. It's not fixing a problem, it's selling an unnecessary product to unsuspecting, uneducated, and paranoid users. Belief in a thing by a majority of people does not necessarily make a thing true.
:laughing: Yeah, none of them do anything. That's why Microsoft themselves even made "Microsoft RegClean".
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/145758
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/299958
There are lots of legitimate programs that do increase speed, fix issues, and remove random crap that causes errors and problems.
Most of those require more knowledge than the average user has and you need to know what you are doing and looking for.
I agree there are many "Click Fix" types don't do anything.
Still if the problem didn't exist people wouldn't be looking for solutions in the first place.
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No it's the fault of Microsoft. Glad they didn't skip using folders on the HD. Just throw all the files in the root of C: users shouldn't be sorting stuff out anyway.
How do you figure? Microsoft provides a standard setup API and guidelines for using the registry correctly. It's up to software developers and publishers to use and follow them.
Yeah, none of them do anything. That's why Microsoft themselves even made "Microsoft RegClean".
You missed a key quote from Microsoft: "The RegClean utility is no longer supported and has been removed from all Microsoft download sites." RegClean was designed to detect and remove references to COM components that were no longer installed on the local system. It had the nasty side effect of removing references used by DCOM, which supports components installed on remote systems. This and other weirdness led to its removal.
Microsoft isn't a single cohesive entity, and the various units within Microsoft are often out of sync. They're no different than any other large organization in that respect. When they make mistakes, they deserve just as much ridicule as everyone else; however, you can't blame the system team for problems caused by the application teams.
Still if the problem didn't exist people wouldn't be looking for solutions in the first place.
The solution is to force software publishers to adhere to standards by not buying their products until they do, i.e. treat the cause, not the symptom. (And there's crap software on every platform, not just Windows.)
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You missed a key quote from Microsoft: "The RegClean utility is no longer supported and has been removed from all Microsoft download sites." RegClean was designed to detect and remove references to COM components that were no longer installed on the local system. It had the nasty side effect of removing references used by DCOM, which supports components installed on remote systems. This and other weirdness led to its removal.
Microsoft isn't a single cohesive entity, and the various units within Microsoft are often out of sync. They're no different than any other large organization in that respect. When they make mistakes, they deserve just as much ridicule as everyone else; however, you can't blame the system team for problems caused by the application teams.
That really sums up my thoughts nicely. Microsoft themselves can't even make a regtool that doesn't break something because the registry is such a huge mess.
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That really sums up my thoughts nicely. Microsoft themselves can't even make a regtool that doesn't break something because the registry is such a huge mess.
Right because systems never change or add anything new over time.
What might have worked once on older versions of the OS no longer does as it interferes with newer functionality in later OS's. So, do Microsoft spend millions in building a brand new tool with the risk of getting into yet another lawsuit due to its monopoly position? Or do they simply say "sod it" and retire the tool?
Answers on the back of a postcard to the usual address.
And the reason you don't have a better solution to using a database to provide the functionality that the registry offers is because there isn't one.
Sure, Microsoft could make it stricter so as to weed out the app developers who have taken a quick and dirty approach to dealing with it, or change it to be more human friendly. But to put it bluntly, users cause enough damage to their systems as it is, without inviting them to muck around with core bits of the OS.
Regarding "clutter". Out of the box Windows, or in fact any of the big three OS's currently in the desktop market offer more functionality than AmigaOS could offer if you grabbed every third party hack/patch and or replacement piece off of aminet.
And patched up to the gills, AmigaOS isn't exactly pretty to deal with either.
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Regarding "clutter". Out of the box Windows, or in fact any of the big three OS's currently in the desktop market offer more functionality than AmigaOS could offer if you grabbed every third party hack/patch and or replacement piece off of aminet.
what functionality do Win 7, OS X and Ubuntu have out of the box that a patched Amiga OS don't? OS functionality, not apps.
And patched up to the gills, AmigaOS isn't exactly pretty to deal with either.
Amikit is the most un-Amiga like patched environment that i have ever used. As alien as it looks and feels to me as a long time Amiga 3.x user, i can find me way around the core OS files more intuitively than any linux distro or Windows version i have used.
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That really sums up my thoughts nicely. Microsoft themselves can't even make a regtool that doesn't break something because the registry is such a huge mess.
No. DCOM aside, the Microsoft Office developers couldn't create a general purpose tool that didn't accidentally delete foreign keys and values because the owners of those entities couldn't be bothered to follow guidelines.
If I accidentally shred a vital document because it was in the wrong folder, it's not the fault of the file cabinet maker.
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what functionality do Win 7, OS X and Ubuntu have out of the box that a patched Amiga OS don't? OS functionality, not apps.
I'll start the ball rolling with this one, as I'm sure others will be able to provide more instances:
True, segregated multi-user support.
Firewalled TCP/IP stack that is built deep into the system.
Full memory protection. OS4 redresses this somewhat, but it's not nearly as effective as in the others.
Fully functional network file sharing.
A HAL worth a damn.
SMP
As for the restriction on apps. Many users might well argue that things such as iTunes or WMP represent core functionality within the OS.
i can find me way around the core OS files more intuitively than any linux distro or Windows version i have used.
Apparently you didn't get what I was aiming at.
I wrote:
patched up to the gills, AmigaOS isn't exactly pretty to deal with either
You put in 20, 30 plus patches into a 3.x system with all the trimmings and suddenly one of your favourite apps stops working.
Good luck trawling through it all to find out which one of those patches (or if you're especially lucky, combination thereof) is the culprit.
Been there, done that. Wasn't fun.
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I'll start the ball rolling with this one, as I'm sure others will be able to provide more instances:
True, segregated multi-user support.
I don't care, I'm the only user.
Firewalled TCP/IP stack that is built deep into the system.
Windows by default firewalls only one of incoming or outgoing traffic, forget which. You'd be mad not to use a third party firewall AND anti-malware suite. Even without a firewalled TCP stack your risk of malware IN REALITY is less with Amiga than Windows. Yes its security by obscurity, but it works. In THEORY, yes Linux and OS X are more secure by design, but in REALITY, if there was enough motivation malware could be as damaging on Linux and OS X. So a significant part of Linux and OS X security is obscurity as well. There is no 100% secure OS
Full memory protection. OS4 redresses this somewhat, but it's not nearly as effective as in the others.
There's a whole thread on MP, and its nowhere near a big deal for most users most of the time. Yes a system with MP is better than one without, but in REALITY, the lack of it hasn't made Amiga a perpetually crashing mess. As I've said earlier look at all the software-apps, utilities, drivers written, and then all the art, music, video, documents on Aminet as evidence as to how well this system without MP works in practice-you couldn't do this if software kept bringing the OS down and people kept losing their files!
Fully functional network file sharing.
Yes
A HAL worth a damn.
Yes, but a lot of nice third-party Amiga hardware seemed to work fine anyway. Anyway, whats CGX/p96 and AHI?
SMP
yes.
As for the restriction on apps. Many users might well argue that things such as iTunes or WMP represent core functionality within the OS.
Equivalent media player software is available as open-source alternatives, and if you could get AmigaOS to run on fast enough hardware you'd have similar functionality. Its not the OS stopping someone porting a general media player, the codecs are all out there. Having said that iTunes runs best on Mac. Linux alternatives have issues with some iPods anyway. But I was interested in core OS functionality, not apps. Everyone knows Amiga has far less developers willing to write software for it.
Apparently you didn't get what I was aiming at.
I wrote:
You put in 20, 30 plus patches into a 3.x system with all the trimmings
Apparently you didn't get what *I* was aiming at. Amikit is good example of exactly that and as far removed from a 3.x system as you can easily get. And guess what? Most apps that i have tried work as well as they do on a vanilla 3.1, and i can *still* work my around it to troubleshoot.
and suddenly one of your favourite apps stops working.
Good luck trawling through it all to find out which one of those patches (or if you're especially lucky, combination thereof) is the culprit.
Even worse is the last three kernel updates I've done with Ubuntu through the repo's and I end up at the grub prompt!!
What you say is possible with any OS, and when it usually happens after the last patch/addition you made. The point is when it happens on Amiga, its usually something that starts from user-startup, WBstartup, changes a shared Lib, or executes something in C. I have more hope in tracking it down than I do Win 7, or Ubuntu.
Been there, done that. Wasn't fun.
Quite.
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I don't care, I'm the only user.
You absolute hypocrite. All the times you had a pop at other people of dismissing your points because they said "I don't use it".
It's a level of security that AmigaOS lacks.
There is no 100% secure OS
That wasn't the question, you asked what these OS's offered out of the box, I told you. That's all there is to it. That some offer better variations than others is outside of the question you asked.
Yes a system with MP is better than one without
End of.
Yes, but a lot of nice third-party Amiga hardware seemed to work fine anyway.
Good luck installing your OS4.x for A1 on a Sam.
In contrast I can and have installed Linux from the same disk on everything from a single P2 system to a coreduo.
That is the power of a HAL.
Equivalent media player software is available as open-source alternatives.
Rhythmbox, Elisa etc.
Both of which are in of themselves apps, but sit on frameworks that are built into the OS itself and comes out of the box. It isn't that AOS just lacks the apps, it's that it lacks the frameworks upon which these apps rely on to operate.
I imagine that parts of WMP's framework can be accessed in a similar fashion by third party apps. I wouldn't be surprised if the library functions within iTunes on OSX are in part tied to the OS's search engine that again could be tapped by other software...
The point is when it happens on Amiga, its usually something that starts from user-startup, WBstartup, changes a shared Lib, or executes something in C. I have more hope in tracking it down than I do Win 7, or Ubuntu.
Heh, you still don't get it (colour me shocked). That you personally are very proficient with AOS but not so much with the other two is utterly irrelevant to the point I was making - which is that once loaded up with everything, AOS can be and is a pita to sort out when it's patched to the hilt.
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You absolute hypocrite. All the times you had a pop at other people of dismissing your points because they said "I don't use it".
whats good for he goose...
It's a level of security that AmigaOS lacks.
And if the malware to take advantage of is so uncommon and unlikely, what then?
Good luck installing your OS4.x for A1 on a Sam.
In contrast I can and have installed Linux from the same disk on everything from a single P2 system to a coreduo.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA. go herehttp://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=327. Go there tomorrow, Go there 6 months from now, try 6 months ago. SAME STORY, whatever the time. Thousands upon thousands of users with hardware that DOESN'T WORK, some not at all, some not without alot of fartsing about. And this with THE MOST popular Linux distro in history.
That is the power of a HAL.
Hmmmm....
Rhythmbox, Elisa etc.
Both of which are in of themselves apps, but sit on frameworks that are built into the OS itself and comes out of the box. It isn't that AOS just lacks the apps, it's that it lacks the frameworks upon which these apps rely on to operate.
Linux will not play the most common audio (mp3) and video (mpeg 2/ dvd) out of the box. I can't even get Totem to play a fricken' audio CD, and no-one can tell me why. Amiga been doing for 20 years, 10 out of the box. But thats besides the point. Amiga can play mp3, and mpeg2, what "framework" are you trying to muddy the waters with?
I imagine that parts of WMP's framework can be accessed in a similar fashion by third party apps.
Right: VLC relies on WMPS "framework" to work. Wait a minute, VLC works in Linux and there is no WMP there...WTF are you on about? Your app takes the digital file, decodes with the right codec, and pumps the video and audio to Direct X or X-server +pulse/whatever or graphics.library/cgx/p96 plus AHI on Amiga. Playback speed on Amiga is ultimately limited by hardware not OS.
I wouldn't be surprised if the library functions within iTunes on OSX are in part tied to the OS's search engine that again could be tapped by other software...
Yeah its all about search engines. iTunes talks to certain iPods using a form of encryption/coding. Don't remember the exact term, but its not an OS thing, its simply because iTunes the app, and iPod the hardware speak the same language, and Apple keeps that secret.
Heh, you still don't get it (colour me shocked). That you personally are very proficient with AOS but not so much with the other two is utterly irrelevant to the point I was making - which is that once loaded up with everything, AOS can be and is a pita to sort out when it's patched to the hilt.
Proficiency has very little to do with it.
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whats good for the goose...
You really are pathetic.
And if the malware to take advantage of is so uncommon and unlikely, what then?
Again, outside of the scope of the question being asked.
To recap since you seem determined to cause an argument:
You said:
what functionality do Win 7, OS X and Ubuntu have out of the box that a patched Amiga OS don't? OS functionality, not apps.
And for the record, there is more to Linux than Ubuntu, and even within Ubuntu there are better choices for an easy out of the box experience than the primary offerings.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA. go herehttp://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=327. Go there tomorrow, Go there 6 months from now, try 6 months ago. SAME STORY, whatever the time. Thousands upon thousands of users with hardware that DOESN'T WORK, some not at all, some not without alot of fartsing about. And this with THE MOST popular Linux distro in history.
Because I certainly couldn't find in this site any number of complaints about hardare issues on an Amiga...
And whilst some people will have issues with a given distro on specific hardware, in practice many others will not. Also, where did I mention Ubuntu?
Oh that's right, I didn't.
Linux will not play the most common audio (mp3) and video (mpeg 2/ dvd) out of the box.
It did here. No downloading, just hit play and *bam* it played. Thats for mp3s, dvd, avi, mov, wmv and flv.
I can't even get Totem to play a fricken' audio CD, and no-one can tell me why.
Because Totem is a pile of shite and everyone (apart from you, apparently) knows it. Mplayer, Rhythmbox. Enjoy.
But thats besides the point. Amiga can play mp3, and mpeg2, what "framework" are you trying to muddy the waters with?
So can Linux, that your particular choice and lack of competence within that choice fails you is irrelevant.
The framework I pointed to with Rhythmbox and Elisa is gstreamer, which coincidentally is what Totem uses as well.
Right: VLC relies on WMPS "framework" to work.
Nope. Way to fail again.
Sidenote: VLC can be made to use OS codecs. It however is OS agnostic and so does not access many OS specific features outside of video and sound.
Strawman coming in 3...2...1...
Wait a minute, VLS works in Linux and there is no WMP there...WTF are you on about?
Oh look, you've picked out a multi platform application that runs pretty much standalone from the rest of the system, duplicating many things available within its host systems in the desire to remain portable and easy to maintain, rather than an OS specific application that makes use of that OS's features.
A wonderful strawman. Well played!
Yeah its all about search engines.
Spotlight can be accessed by third party programs and it's results parsed however you want.
Proficiency has very little to do with it.
It has everything to do with it.
We're done.
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And if the malware to take advantage of is so uncommon and unlikely, what then?
What you're saying is that AmigaOS is better because it is really unpopular. Thats a time limited selling point.
Unless what you want to do is convince the world that AmigaOS is so much better, but then tell everyone they can't use it because then you'd all be easy targets for malware.
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@the_leander
Your replies speak for themselves. But once again.
1. Theoretically lack of multi-user and MP make AmigaOS less secure. In reality, it means SFA as a)the risk of malware is negligible and b) Amiga runs software just fine without MP 3) You face far greater risks under Windows. Obscurity in the real world works for Amiga, as it does for OS X and Linux.
2. I referred to Ubuntu as it is BY FAR the mostly widely used distro. Totem is its default media player. Ergo its the most widely used Linux media player out of the box. Ditto lack of mp3 and DVD playback in Ubuntu. Its what most Linux users would confront out of the box.
3. I referred to VLC precisely to negate your BS "WMP as an OS framework used by third party media players without which you can't playback media files" argument. I achieved my aim. The rest is just waffle.
4. Spotlight? You claimed iTunes could be considered an integral part of the OS. Now you're onto a search utility. Amiga has them too, if you want.
5. Competence has nothing to do with the fact that one OS has sensibly named folders and file names, and another doesn't or requires you to execute and remember a gazillion shell commands just to do simple thing.
BTW I'd forgotten "the I don't use it so it doesn't matter" argument. That thread`must have cut you, real bad , man. Peace.
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What you're saying is that AmigaOS is better because it is really unpopular. Thats a time limited selling point.
Its an argument that recognises things as they are:its a hobbyist OS for which there is negligible malware risk.
Unless what you want to do is convince the world that AmigaOS is so much better, but then tell everyone they can't use it because then you'd all be easy targets for malware.
That sounds like Windows. Really. Its what MS does every Windows cycle. Its only a matter of time before any Win version becomes just one massive patch. MS even tells us so. We then wipe that one off the hard drive, and start again, hoping to get a few years of reasonably secure OS use MP, Firewalls, AV software nothwistanding. If Linux and OS X were as popular, they'd be in a similar state.
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@the_leander
Your replies speak for themselves.
Yes, it's a shame you're incapable of understanding them.
1. Theoretically lack of multi-user and MP make AmigaOS less secure. In reality, it means SFA as a)the risk of malware is negligible
You have malware on the brain. Malware isn't the only (or even the most dangerous) risk factor for a computer that having a multi user environment in place protects against.
Case in point: My sister was given a Win98 laptop some years back, she decided to and I quote "tidy up" the internal file structure, which meant renaming and deleting about 2 3rds of the OS before it finally shat itself.
When she later got an XP box, I made sure she ran in a limited user account to avoid repetition.
2. I referred to Ubuntu as it is BY FAR the mostly widely used distro.
I'm sorry, but you're going to have to provide a citation of that. And whilst you're at it you may wish to look into the numerous variants based off of it before you make a complete arse of yourself... Again.
Totem is its default media player. Ergo its the most widely used Linux media player out of the box. Ditto lack of mp3 and DVD playback in Ubuntu. Its what most Linux users would confront out of the box.
Until you provide proof of your claims, your conclusions are equally worthless.
3. I referred to VLC precisely to negate your BS "WMP as an OS framework used by third party media players without which you can't playback media files" argument. I achieved my aim. The rest is just waffle.
There is nothing BS about it. And way to totally ignore what I actually said and at the same time bypass your own original question.
You created a strawman. Nothing more nothing less.
4. Spotlight? You claimed iTunes could be considered an integral part of the OS.
I told no such lies.
Here is what I said, for the flids among us:
I wouldn't be surprised if the library functions within iTunes on OSX are in part tied to the OS's search engine that again could be tapped by other software...
Way to misrepresent everything that has been said to you. Come back to the site when you learn to read.
5. Competence has nothing to do with the fact that one OS has sensibly named folders and file names, and another doesn't or requires you to execute and remember a gazillion shell commands just to do simple thing.
Competence has everything to do with it. It all "makes sense" once you understand it. And whilst Vanilla AOS3.x may well be easier to learn thanks to its simple size, the moment you actually move out of that and start applying patches and full blown replacement bits to it, things get complex real fast.
Linux, Windows and OSX might have slightly tougher learning curves when it comes to delving into their guts, but the flip side is that with the latter two at least, there is far less need as they come with fairly sane default settings and enough functionality built in to not necessitate hacking away at them, Linux too if you choose your distro correctly can provide a very elegant out of the box experience, though with that you do have to be a little pickier with your hardware choice than windows. The other point is that kids today are being brought up on Windows practically from the cradle, for them, the Amiga would be as alien to their way of handling a computer as some hardcore Linux or BSDs would be.
That thread`must have cut you,
Not at all, tbh I'd all but forgotten about it until you started acting the hypocrite.
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Its an argument that recognises things as they are:its a hobbyist OS for which there is negligible malware risk.
So the only way for Microsoft to make Windows secure is for everyone to stop using it? Sounds a bit like security through obscurity, which is a very bad thing to rely on.
You're also limiting the number of applications you'll ever be able to run, because if AmigaOS ever gets popular enough to sustain apps you'll have to switch to another unpopular OS.
It sounds like you'd be happiest if you were the only one that ran AmigaOS. In which case, why would you think it was a good idea to convince us that it's viable?
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If the whole "security through obscurity" thing was true, Im surprised there's not a flood of BSD vira out there to destroy the webservers of important stuff
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This thread delivers! :D
Just as a reference, I scanned my registry for orphans, to see how many I had.
My computer is being used daily, both for work, and for gaming and surfing. I have installed and uninstalled at least a dozen games since I reinstalled the last time, not to mention the myriad of game demos, and a few productivity apps that have been going in and out like male reproduction organs in the feeding apparatus of a very busy woman of eastern European origin.
There was 436 orphaned registry keys.
436 keys in the 8½ months that have passed since I last reinstalled.
This will undoubtly slow my system down to a crawl.
Oh, by the way, the reason some distributions of Ubuntu don't play DVD's, and some other media, out of the box is because the open source players violate patent/copyright laws in some countries. Thus, this funtionality is provided as add-ons, to make sure that the distribution is legal regardless of where it is being installed.
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This thread delivers! :D
Just as a reference, I scanned my registry for orphans, to see how many I had.
My computer is being used daily, both for work, and for gaming and surfing. I have installed and uninstalled at least a dozen games since I reinstalled the last time, not to mention the myriad of game demos, and a few productivity apps that have been going in and out like male reproduction organs in the feeding apparatus of a very busy woman of eastern European origin.
There was 436 orphaned registry keys.
436 keys in the 8½ months that have passed since I last reinstalled.
This will undoubtly slow my system down to a crawl.
Oh, by the way, the reason some distributions of Ubuntu don't play DVD's, and some other media, out of the box is because the open source players violate patent/copyright laws in some countries. Thus, this funtionality is provided as add-ons, to make sure that the distribution is legal regardless of where it is being installed.
There is no way to know how many unused keys you have in your registry.
EDIT:
Ok. I took about a month old machine with Win7. It has Office 2010 and a few other office programs.
Backup the reg and it is 119MB
I installed Quicktime and then backup the reg again.
Then I uninstalled Quicktime and backed up the reg a third time.
After install 8835 lines were added to the registry. There were more changed than that, but that is actual lines added.
After uninstalling, comparing to the original reg 3 minutes prior, there are 1956 lines of code left over.
It added 1.03 Megabytes when installed.
After removing my REG now has 251KB of crap data.
No running CCleaner won't help. :-)
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That's why I've used jv16 PowerTools for years - but can't say how effective it is in this respect.
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After removing my REG now has 251KB of crap data.
No running CCleaner won't help. :-)
But writing a note to Apple about their broken installer might help.
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@amigaheretic
That was orphaned keys only; keys that point to files that no longer exist.
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There is no way to know how many unused keys you have in your registry.
It added 1.03 Megabytes when installed.
After removing my REG now has 251KB of crap data.
No running CCleaner won't help. :-)
251k? seriously. You think that will slow down your PC?
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Common files are also left. For example if you install a game that requires visual basic runtime and a couple of other generic dll's these may be left by the installer because the developer (not necissarily MS) felt they were useful files you might still want on the system.
Occasionally when uninstalling a program you might get the dialog box saying something to effect of "this action will delete *.dll which the system indicates is no longer used by any programs, deleting this file may cause programs which do use it to stop working of become unstable"
these are not garbage that will slow your computer but usefull programs which will not have to be installed by other programs if they need them.
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Developers also leave registration info, and other tracking stuff. Again, not MS, won't slow you computer, but I guess you could debate the invasiveness of info left by a program you uninstalled.
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GOOD GOD I get tired of these friggin useless "I hate Microsoft" threads. You hate Microsoft or Windows or whatever, FINE DON'T USE THEM or BUY THEM or anything else.
But STFU and stop clogging boards with this useless drivel that has zero bearing on anything even resembling anything worthwhile.
I am tired of having to sift through this type of worthless crap so I can actually read something USEFUL and INFORMATIVE.
No OS is perfect, and you can friggin nitpick any OS out there.. they all have flaws, (I know as I use all of them mentioned here) but NOTHING is more compatible, works better fresh out of the box on more hardware.
NOTHING
PERIOD
Hate Windows or Microsoft all you want, but STFU about it..
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251k? seriously. You think that will slow down your PC?
No I think it will speed it up.
That was a single program. Like I said a dozen times already if you are the kind of person that installs and uninstalls program to test them out all the time your will slowly fill you system with crap and you have no way to clean it other than a reformat/reinstall.
That crap that is left behind on that test system is their forever now. It's seems like there would be a better way.
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That crap that is left behind on that test system is their forever now. It's seems like there would be a better way.
It's unlikely to make a bit of difference, but if you really care about making sure that software you install and uninstall is really gone then you could use a virtual machine or a sandbox (I've heard good things about this: http://www.sandboxie.com/).
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holy christ. The fliddery is in full force in this thread.
Totem is its default media player. Ergo its the most widely used Linux media player out of the box. Ditto lack of mp3 and DVD playback in Ubuntu. Its what most Linux users would confront out of the box.
Most linux users immediately want to watch movies and listen to MP3s?
INTERESTING!
I thought most linux users immediately wanted to do something useful.
Also, piss on Ubuntu. Redhat/Fedora smokes that brown pile of MacOSXknockoff. :D
all of this lol@windowsregistry, and referencing basic CS concepts to argue the point, is stupid. Comparing it to how "streamlined" and "easy to use" an old ass OS is, is also stupid. Amiga OS is a pain in the ass alot of times.
The only thing wrong with the windows registry is people who think they know what they're doing going in and touching stuff. If a database of crap like that slows your computer down, then your computer is a piece of shit. get a new one.
I've had a single core XP box running 24/7 (unless theres a power outtage) for the past like, 8 years.
It boots up just about half as fast as the new windows 7 box I have. Is this bad? No! The Win7 box has a way better processor, more ram, and a faster HDD. It had better boot faster.
They both still boot perfectly fast and the XP machine has never needed restored. It's full of programs and installed crap too. That registry is perty damn big, and it hasn't jacked my performance.
so all of the M$ Haters can go walk into traffic. :)
Show me the following for another OS in a situation where the programs will all run without having to dick around for hours until it works, and maybe then the whole "OMG M$ SUx0r" thing will have some validity.
There are no great, functional, nice to use alternatives to alot of the stuff I do with Windows. Trying to find and use "better alternatives" turned out to be more work. Less bang for my buck!
forget that crap.
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so all of the M$ Haters can go walk into traffic. :)
Show me the following for another OS in a situation where the programs will all run without having to dick around for hours until it works, and maybe then the whole "OMG M$ SUx0r" thing will have some validity.
There are no great, functional, nice to use alternatives to alot of the stuff I do with Windows. Trying to find and use "better alternatives" turned out to be more work. Less bang for my buck!
forget that crap.
I'm not saying there is anything better than Windows. I said I use it 98% of the time.
Just because it's the best choice doesn't mean it ain't dog shit.
It's the 2010 and we are still dealing with crap design decisions from 1980's. If there were virtual goats Windows would blow them.
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holy christ. The fliddery is in full force in this thread.
Most linux users immediately want to watch movies and listen to MP3s?
INTERESTING!
I thought most linux users immediately wanted to do something useful.
Also, piss on Ubuntu. Redhat/Fedora smokes that brown pile of MacOSXknockoff. :D
Would this be the same fedonka that utterly failed to even boot past decompressing the kernel on my PC, upon which Ubuntu and debian work just fine?
;)
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Would this be the same fedonka that utterly failed to even boot past decompressing the kernel on my PC, upon which Ubuntu and debian work just fine?
;)
lol The "fedonky show".
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It's the 2010 and we are still dealing with crap design decisions from 1980's. If there were virtual goats Windows would blow them.
Tell me about it, brother. I work with Solaris a lot, which is based on System V Unix. I cannot tell you how irritating it is to work with design decisions from the 60s!
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what crap decisions from the 80's still exist in windows7 and a modern pc? Not the registry, that didn't come until much later.
Windows is a very fast, capable, stable, and very cool OS. I think 7 is easily worth what MS charges for it. All the arguments about the supposed backwardness of windows are gone.
All you have to argue about now is some piddly little registry thing you don't even understand and have no proof of any effect on your system (none)
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Would this be the same fedonka that utterly failed to even boot past decompressing the kernel on my PC, upon which Ubuntu and debian work just fine?
;)
no that must be a different one. The one I use installs fine. :) lol
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what crap decisions from the 80's still exist in windows7 and a modern pc? Not the registry, that didn't come until much later.
Windows is a very fast, capable, stable, and very cool OS. I think 7 is easily worth what MS charges for it. All the arguments about the supposed backwardness of windows are gone.
All you have to argue about now is some piddly little registry thing you don't even understand and have no proof of any effect on your system (none)
1. Windows Genuine Advantage
This Win7/Vista feature is designed to combat piracy, but instead it wages war against common sense. If WGA believes that you aren't running a legitimate copy of Windows, it takes a variety of actions against you. In earlier iterations, it could in essence shut off your access to the operating system.
2. The Registry
The Registry is a giant, incomprehensible database of Windows settings, preferences, behaviours, and more. When you use a dialog box to make a change to how Windows works, generally it's making a change to the Registry --- often dialog boxes are mere front ends to the Registry. But to make many changes, you need to edit the Registry, and it's a tough, dangerous thing to do. Other operating systems, including Mac OS X and Linux, don't have Registries, and they work fine. It's time for Microsoft to finally kill the Registry.
3. ActiveX Controls
ActiveX controls are essentially applets delivered via Internet Explorer. They don't, however, run in other browsers. And they have the potential to be malicious. Once upon a time they served some use, but no longer. Given the growth of AJAX and Web 2.0 sites, it's clear that sophisticated applications can be delivered via the browser without ActiveX. Microsoft should finally pull the plug on this technology.
4. User Account Control
This is clearly the unanimous choice for a feature that needs to bite the dust. Sure, it offers security...but at far too high an annoyance cost, with pointless pop-ups and ridiculous intrusions. Microsoft needs to kill UAC and start from scratch.
blah blah blah and on and on....
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1. Windows Genuine Advantage
This Win7/Vista feature is designed to combat piracy, but instead it wages war against common sense. If WGA believes that you aren't running a legitimate copy of Windows, it takes a variety of actions against you. In earlier iterations, it could in essence shut off your access to the operating system.
Their help desk is open 24 hours. If something happens, you call them, its fixed. The end. That or you just enter your product key in a box and you're good to go. You can't blame a company for protecting their software. That's dense.
2. The Registry
The Registry is a giant, incomprehensible database of Windows settings, preferences, behaviours, and more. When you use a dialog box to make a change to how Windows works, generally it's making a change to the Registry --- often dialog boxes are mere front ends to the Registry. But to make many changes, you need to edit the Registry, and it's a tough, dangerous thing to do. Other operating systems, including Mac OS X and Linux, don't have Registries, and they work fine. It's time for Microsoft to finally kill the Registry.
It's incomprehensible because you aren't really suppose to read it. It's there. There is software in place to handle it. Ignore that it's there. Stop touching it. Typing regedit and seeing all that crazy jargon is cool and all, but if you have NFI what you're doing, stay away.
All OS's have something similar to "the registry", and other finnicky little things. Quit having tunnel vision against the M$ Machine. OSX has annoying file permissions you have to go repair sometimes, and that periodic daily weekly monthly cleanup nonsense.
Every OS has this shit. If it didn't, it wouldn't be a very personal computer. It would forget who you are, what you did, and what you setup every time you reboot the thing.
3. ActiveX Controls
ActiveX controls are essentially applets delivered via Internet Explorer. They don't, however, run in other browsers. And they have the potential to be malicious. Once upon a time they served some use, but no longer. Given the growth of AJAX and Web 2.0 sites, it's clear that sophisticated applications can be delivered via the browser without ActiveX. Microsoft should finally pull the plug on this technology.
Pull the plug and remove all legacy support. GOOD IDEA.
Alot of businesses that run on SQLServer and use M$ use IE/ActiveX. Just because you don't use it when you're dicking off on the internet doesn't mean it's not useful.
4. User Account Control
This is clearly the unanimous choice for a feature that needs to bite the dust. Sure, it offers security...but at far too high an annoyance cost, with pointless pop-ups and ridiculous intrusions. Microsoft needs to kill UAC and start from scratch.
This is for people who don't know what's going on. You CAN turn it off you know. It takes all of 10 seconds to deactivate. You can edit the registry and do Big O notation , but can't find the button to turn off UAC?
euhhhhh
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Their help desk is open 24 hours. If something happens, you call them, its fixed. The end. That or you just enter your product key in a box and you're good to go. You can't blame a company for protecting their software. That's dense.
It's incomprehensible because you aren't really suppose to read it. It's there. There is software in place to handle it. Ignore that it's there. Stop touching it. Typing regedit and seeing all that crazy jargon is cool and all, but if you have NFI what you're doing, stay away.
All OS's have something similar to "the registry", and other finnicky little things. Quit having tunnel vision against the M$ Machine. OSX has annoying file permissions you have to go repair sometimes, and that periodic daily weekly monthly cleanup nonsense.
Every OS has this shit. If it didn't, it wouldn't be a very personal computer. It would forget who you are, what you did, and what you setup every time you reboot the thing.
Pull the plug and remove all legacy support. GOOD IDEA.
Alot of businesses that run on SQLServer and use M$ use IE/ActiveX. Just because you don't use it when you're dicking off on the internet doesn't mean it's not useful.
This is for people who don't know what's going on. You CAN turn it off you know. It takes all of 10 seconds to deactivate. You can edit the registry and do Big O notation , but can't find the button to turn off UAC?
euhhhhh
Sounds like you agree it is all wasted space and should be gotten rid of.
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Sounds like you agree it is all wasted space and should be gotten rid of.
no I don't. Can't you read...? The only wasted space here is that giant block quote you just did that was pointless to leave there.
UAC is great for flids who just smash keys and press buttons aimlessly and jack up their machine out of cluelessness.
WGA is awesome so Microsoft doesn't get severely reemed as far as profits go...sure some people will pirate still, but at least it only lets the really crafty pirating get through.
ActiveX is perfectly fine. Sorry it doesn't conform to the LOLLINUXOPENSAUCE thing. Doesn't dismiss it as useful.
and the registry, it is good stuff. I understand most of it upon looking at it. Then I remember it doesn't really matter, and close the registry editor and get on with my life. It's kept Windows operating for what like two decades. Must not be a bad idea.
plus it lets you hack the resolution of FFXI to make it look smooth as hell.
It just sounds like you opened it, got confused at all of the hexadecimal, and decided you hate it. It's like busting open a microwave, expecting magical faeries and gnomes cooking your food..., and all you see is technical crap.
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blah blah blah and on and on....
Yep and that is just about the only thing you have said worth repeating...
And this STUPID WINDOWS BASHING thread goes on...
Get a life buddy... You are boring me..
And wasting my valuable time that I like to use reading things that are USEFUL
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Yep and that is just about the only thing you have said worth repeating...
And this STUPID WINDOWS BASHING thread goes on...
Get a life buddy... You are boring me..
And wasting my valuable time that I like to use reading things that are USEFUL
And since you will doubtless be gone by now, I'd just like to add this insightful comment (http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/hurr_durr.jpg) on the subject...
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ARE YOU KEEPIN UP WITH THE HERPADERP? CAUSE THE HERPADERP IS KEEPING UP WITH YOU!
:laughing:
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Yep and that is just about the only thing you have said worth repeating...
And this STUPID WINDOWS BASHING thread goes on...
Get a life buddy... You are boring me..
And wasting my valuable time that I like to use reading things that are USEFUL
Wasting your time? You choose to post in here. Besides it's Microsofts fault you have to respond. They make that craptastic OS not me.
I point out flaws and you guys go. "Yeah, there are flaws but here's how to work around them." For every flaw there is a 23 step work around. See, MS is perfect!
I don't think you guys are idiots I'm sure you know what a piece of crap the registry is. Only a blind person wouldn't know there are 1 billion google hits for "registry is garbage"
Yet, what kind of discussion do I get from your guys? Uhh, well, just pretend it isn't there. Great solution. :huh::crazy:
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Wasting your time? You choose to post in here. Besides it's Microsofts fault you have to respond. They make that craptastic OS not me.
Nothing craptastic about it. I use it to develop games, play games, make music, and troll teh interwebs, no probrem.
I point out flaws and you guys go. "Yeah, there are flaws but here's how to work around them." For every flaw there is a 23 step work around. See, MS is perfect!
What flaws? You pointed out COMPLAINTS. Petty, narrow minded complaints no less.
I don't think you guys are idiots I'm sure you know what a piece of crap the registry is. Only a blind person wouldn't know there are 1 billion google hits for "registry is garbage"
The majority of humanity is stupid.
Yet, what kind of discussion do I get from your guys? Uhh, well, just pretend it isn't there. Great solution. :huh::crazy:
Pretending it isnt there is perfectly fine. It wasn't made for extreme user touching. If you never open/touch the registry in 10 years, you'll be fine.
It's only a problem if you make it one.
To everybody else its "thing doing stuff that I don't need to bother with". Then they go do their business and walk away. :)
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Nothing craptastic about it.
It's only a problem if you make it one.
To everybody else its "thing doing stuff that I don't need to bother with". Then they go do their business and walk away. :)
Nope. Not unless you want to fix something. I guess an expert like you just reinstalls Windows when they have an issue? Oh, wait, you've never had a problem. Right?
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Nope. Not unless you want to fix something. I guess an expert like you just reinstalls Windows when they have an issue? Oh, wait, you've never had a problem. Right?
One of the really nice features that Windows has is it's repair option - the ability to roll back to your last previously known good settings.
It's so good that even Linux distributions are now offering similar facilities that are every bit as user friendly.
And of course, there are always rolling backups for when you really do stuff up.
You may wish to look into these.
As I said to stefcep2, it's all about competence.
As for UAC. Most Linux distros I know expect you to run in a limited user account by default and require you to type in the root password to do things like installing software or altering key files. It's only annoying because you're actually being required to do things in a safe manner.
Running as Admin/root is retarded beyond words.
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One of the really nice features that Windows has is it's repair option - the ability to roll back to your last previously known good settings.
It's so good that even Linux distributions are now offering similar facilities that are every bit as user friendly.
And of course, there are always rolling backups for when you really do stuff up.
You may wish to look into these.
You're joking right?
http://tinyurl.com/38xmwna
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Running as Admin/root is retarded beyond words.
Yeah, I mean why should "I" be in control of my computer? How "retarded" of me.
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You're joking right?
http://tinyurl.com/38xmwna
ZOMG, because an option doesn't always work all the time and in all situations WINDOHS IS TEH EBUL!!!!!
Grow up. There are always going to be situations where restoring a system won't fix a major system hosing. Which is why I stated that Rolling backups were there for when things went seriously wrong.
Yeah, I mean why should "I" be in control of my computer? How "retarded" of me.
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Yes, you are retarded, firstly for not running in a limited user account which is a major security issue, and for believing that having to type in an admin password to do potentially system stuffing things somehow renders you out of control.
It's flids like you who make botnet owners happy in their pants.
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Yeah, I mean why should "I" be in control of my computer? How "retarded" of me.
You are in control, so long as you have access to the root account or sudo. Running almost everything in a limited user context limits the damage you, or a bad application or any combination of the two, can do.
You only need root access when making changes that are potentially dangerous or have other far reaching consequences for your system.
With root comes the power to totally ruin your system with a few keystrokes.
After all, as with any user, you'd be the first to blame the system when you wipe it out by accidentally ... the whole thing.
Wanting to have ultimate authority at all times without thinking about the consequences can indeed be a retarded thing. Would you walk around with a loaded gun in your pants with the safety permanently off?
Running as root at all times is about as sensible within the context of computer use.
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Nope. Not unless you want to fix something. I guess an expert like you just reinstalls Windows when they have an issue? Oh, wait, you've never had a problem. Right?
I've been working with Windows since I was 7. 15 years of dealing with windows since pre-1995 and having a great time with it, fixing tons of issues for myself and others.... yeah I guess you could say I'm an expert. More so now since I get paid to lolwindows.
See, when there are problems, there are utilities and methods that are really easy to do to fix the problem.
Hamfisting the registry is not one of these methods. Useful methods are usually required to undo registry-rape.
Fixing the "system restore not working" is also easy. If you spent less time hamfisting the registry, and more time understand how windows operates, you might fair better.
Most of the people with problems in windows are the same people who click YES to everything on the internet and wonder why they have 32 toolbars and can only see 2 lines of a webpage at a time.
Also running root 24/7 in Linux is dumb. When you flid it up as root, you've flidded it up for good my man.
PS: I haven't done a system restore in like, 3 years.
I did have to image my install and move to new HDD when the other HDD failed, but that doesn't count.
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1. Windows Genuine Advantage
I agree with the sentiment, if not the reasoning. All software should be free of DRM.
But to make many changes, you need to edit the Registry, and it's a tough, dangerous thing to do.
No, it's not, but if you don't know what you're doing, it's best to leave it alone. That's a life lesson we all learn as children, yes?
3. ActiveX Controls
I'm going to sound like an a**hole here, but you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. :-) ActiveX is a marketing term used to describe user interface elements built using COM. Internet Explorer is a consumer of COM components, just like many other Windows applications. For what it's worth, Microsoft has been trying to replace COM with .NET for the last ten years. Neither of those technologies is specifically tied to the "web," however. The Internet is not the end all, be all of computing.
4. User Account Control
I'm assuming you allow strangers to wander into your home because door chimes, locks, and doors themselves are cumbersome and inconvenient. And you always run as root. Regardless, you can disable UAC completely if necessary.
EDIT: Incidentally, I only rebuild my primary Windows system when I replace the motherboard (and CPU and anything else that might be upgraded as a result), which is roughly every three years. I've been working professionally with enterprise-level Windows architecture for roughly 15 years, but that's neither here nor there. Anyone with access to Wikipedia (yes, it's more accurate than you think), Microsoft's web site, or a library can sort Windows fact from Windows fiction.
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I've been working with Windows since I was 7. 15 years of dealing with windows since pre-1995 and having a great time with it, fixing tons of issues for myself and others.... yeah I guess you could say I'm an expert. More so now since I get paid to lolwindows.
You're probably so en-grained in Windows you can't see a different way.
Look at the situation with Windows. I install Office, Visual Studio, Bioshock, my Zune software, Money, Streets and Trips, Song Smith. (All MS products I choose so you can't blame 3rd parties ;-) )
Let say, Windows get's f-ed up, Windows restore won't work, etc.
Does it really make sense that all your Apps should be so tied into the OS that if you have to reinstall Windows you have to reinstall and reset up every single application on your computer?
To me apps should be separate from the OS. That's one of the biggest fails of the registry and the MS philosophy.
I believe you should be able to blow away your OS, do a reinstall, and have your program remain mostly unaffected. ( of course you'll always need to do any updates that programs may have required that are newer than the OS install disc/DL had)
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To me apps should be separate from the OS
That would be ideal, but it's a problem that's not limited to Windows. It is possible to write and install self-contained Windows applications, even ones that--*gasp*--use the registry. (You can isolate and virtualize access to the registry in a way that's transparent to applications. Really, you can do whatever you want. A developer is only limited by their own imagination.)
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So, if you use updated firewall and ativirus programs it's not enough? I almost always use the admin account, I can not be bothered to switch back and forth all the time.
And by the way, the Windows file structure and user friendliness is grape in comparison with the Amiga.
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So, if you use updated firewall and ativirus programs it's not enough? I almost always use the admin account, I can not be bothered to switch back and forth all the time.
And by the way, the Windows file structure and user friendliness is grape in comparison with the Amiga.
Switch back and forth to do what? Seriously, what everyday tasks do people do that requires it?
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I'm wondering just how many of you contributing to this topic should know better by now.
Pick a modern OS. List the disadvantages of it (if you can't, you're either biassed beyond belief and/or you don't know enough about the OS). No OS is or ever will be perfect.
Shock horror, there are sucky aspects about Windows. What a NEWSFLASH.
And just to point out one flaw in an argument used on the last page of posts, when you've got the vast majority of people on the planet using one product, finding x thousand people with a problem about one of its features is hardly "OMG! the implementation of this feature sucks so badly!". That's like one percent of the total userbase.
What are you arguing about this for?
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You're probably so en-grained in Windows you can't see a different way.
lol, actually I grew up with Amiga 500, a 286-->386--->beyond, a redhat machine, and even for a time, a mac.
now I use Windows and Linux. I dont use mac cause that shits too pricey to be worth the lack of use.
I just think your complaints are pretty boring and girly.
every OS is guilty of losing apps if you don't back it all up and something goes horribly wrong.
Especially Linux, if you hamfist as root 24/7
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Switch back and forth to do what? Seriously, what everyday tasks do people do that requires it?
I do not really remember. But every time I try to update, install or uninstall drivers and programs, I get told that i must have administrative rights, and it's virtually every day.
But others who use my computer get not use the admin account of course, if I am not inattentive then.
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I just think your complaints are pretty boring and girly.
every OS is guilty of losing apps if you don't back it all up and something goes horribly wrong.
Boring and girly? WTF?
When Windows goes down, so goes everything.
You can't back up "Office" for example on Windows. There are a few apps that will let you move the folder and it still work, but those are few.
A typical Windows Tech day is reformat, Reinstall OS, Reinstall all the Apps, re-setup all the apps.
If the OS goes down it should be separate from the Apps. That will never happen when every single setting for every single program is in the registry.
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I do not really remember. But every time I try to update, install or uninstall drivers and programs, I get told that i must have administrative rights, and it's virtually every day.
But others who use my computer get not use the admin account of course, if I am not inattentive then.
It's really convenient when a friend plugs in his USB thumb drive to quickly grab a file and you have to reconfigure your whole OS.
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I do not really remember. But every time I try to update, install or uninstall drivers and programs, I get told that i must have administrative rights, and it's virtually every day.
But others who use my computer get not use the admin account of course, if I am not inattentive then.
You do it "virtually every day" and yet you don't remember what it is? :roflmao:
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Boring and girly? WTF?
Whaa whaaaa the UAC is hard.
Whaaa the registry is too registery for me
whaaaaaa GENuine advantage is unfair!
WHAAAAAA
ffs, these are complaints that 60 year old n00bs dont even gripe about.
When Windows goes down, so goes everything.
You can't back up "Office" for example on Windows. There are a few apps that will let you move the folder and it still work, but those are few.
protip: try the repair option.
A typical Windows Tech day is reformat, Reinstall OS, Reinstall all the Apps, re-setup all the apps.
see: protip.
If the OS goes down it should be separate from the Apps. That will never happen when every single setting for every single program is in the registry.
Oh because Linux , osx, and AmigaOS are totally void of this problem.
Totally.
stop using windows as your scapegoat.
It's really convenient when a friend plugs in his USB thumb drive to quickly grab a file and you have to reconfigure your whole OS.
And now you're just being a moron.
I shove USB nonsense into my PC 24/7 all the time, I swap with friends, we shove em in. Instant success.
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Whaa whaaaa the UAC is hard.
Whaaa the registry is too registery for me
whaaaaaa GENuine advantage is unfair!
WHAAAAAA
ffs, these are complaints that 60 year old n00bs dont even gripe about.
protip: try the repair option.
see: protip.
Oh because Linux , osx, and AmigaOS are totally void of this problem.
Totally.
stop using windows as your scapegoat.
And now you're just being a moron.
I shove USB nonsense into my PC 24/7 all the time, I swap with friends, we shove em in. Instant success.
Oh, keep it up! I'm about to whip out my Win7 CD and urinate all over it! Then we'll see who's cryin'.
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I shove USB nonsense into my PC 24/7 all the time, I swap with friends, we shove em in. Instant success.
Oh, keep it up! I'm about to whip out my Win7 CD and urinate all over it! Then we'll see who's cryin'.
This thread has turned decidedly homoerotic. Before you know it, you'll be cage fighting.
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Rember when MS bitch slapped black people?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372262
What a great company.
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This thread has turned decidedly homoerotic. Before you know it, you'll be cage fighting.
We just need to photoshop each others faces on DoomMaster's body and then it will be the perfect thread. :)
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I do not really remember. But every time I try to update, install or uninstall drivers and programs, I get told that i must have administrative rights, and it's virtually every day.
But others who use my computer get not use the admin account of course, if I am not inattentive then.
Within a limited user account:
Right click and select "Run as Admin".
Type in your admin password and you're sorted. This goes for drivers, program installation and PITA games whose anti cheating (punkbuster etc) kit requires admin rights to work properly.
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They didn't like black dudes in Poland, apparently.
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We just need to photoshop each others faces on DoomMaster's body and then it will be the perfect thread.
Or you could stage the cage fight inside a greased Amiga 2000 chassis. EDIT: With camouflage face paint, of course.
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Oh, keep it up! I'm about to whip out my Win7 CD and urinate all over it! Then we'll see who's cryin'.
So that's your answer is it? Get called on your complete lack of competence with regards running and administering a windows box and you resort to the above?
I swear there needs to be a law that makes the EDCL or something similar a minimum requirement for owning and operating a computer online.
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Or you could stage the cage fight inside a greased Amiga 2000 chassis. EDIT: With camouflage face paint, of course.
He'd make you wear these in his A2000
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uklineVK_iY/R2X193uIH_I/AAAAAAAABzs/5tO3eIQ644w/s400/desert-camo-hip-brief.jpg
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So that's your answer is it? Get called on your complete lack of competence with regards running and administering a windows box and you resort to the above?
I swear there needs to be a law that makes the EDCL or something similar a minimum requirement for owning and operating a computer online.
I was joking in response to a different post.
People just keep saying, "ignore" the problem!!
I already have said I use Windows 98% of the time. It is my OS of choice. I still think it sucks if the OS goes down I have to reinstall every app.
I love on Amiga that apps are seperate from the OS.
If I want to install a different version of the OS or test out Workbench replacements, that has ZERO effect on my programs partition.
The "united" registry of crap-dome is a bad design. The solution people keep saying is stick your head in the sand. Doesn't make for much conversation does it?
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I love on Amiga that apps are seperate from the OS.
I'm sure you got that backwards. AmigaOS (and it's offshoots) are the only OSes I have where an application passes chunks of it's own data directly to the OS and vice versa and with each other.
Technically speaking, there's no separation between OS and applications at any meaningful level whatsoever.
You can install them anywhere you like too. You could put an app in your L: assign if you wanted...
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People just keep saying, "ignore" the problem!!
I have to ask, is English your second language?
Because nowhere in this thread has anyone said "ignore it".
I still think it sucks if the OS goes down I have to reinstall every app.
Again, rolling backups. You can back up not just Windows, but everything that you installed.
In the event of a catastrophic failure, such as running in an Admin account on a system that is connected to the net (it's only a matter of time). You can restore from your backup everything, including your apps.
I love on Amiga that apps are seperate from the OS.
If I want to install a different version of the OS or test out Workbench replacements, that has ZERO effect on my programs partition.
You do know you can have partitions on x86 systems too, right? And that there are apps that are designed to run as standalone for windows, yes? Even big name applications.
The "united" registry of crap-dome is a bad design.
You repeating a lie does not make it true.
Other OS's that use a database to store key settings, hardware config details and file locations for quick access include but are not limited to:
BeOS, MacOSX, Linux, BSD, IRIX, Solaris.
Having a database for these things is sound system design. That some third parties play fast and loose with it is not Microsofts fault any more than it would be for any other OS producer.
That it isn't easy to understand to the layman also isn't a bad thing: It scares off some people who might otherwise be tempted to start messing with settings.
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I was joking in response to a different post.
People just keep saying, "ignore" the problem!!
No we don't. We say there isn't a problem. You're making it a problem. You're grasping at straws and bitching about nonsense. Complaining about the UAC is like complaining about the child-locks on a car. turn them off and stfu.
What you're doing is the same as popping the hood on a car and going FUCK MAN, THERE IS A MESS OF METAL AND WIRES AND THINGS INSIDE HERE. WHAT A SHITTY DESIGN. ITS INCOMPREHENSIBLE.
and then reaching in and messing with it and going
MY CAR DRIVES FUNNY. THIS CAR MAKER IS STUPID.
I already have said I use Windows 98% of the time. It is my OS of choice. I still think it sucks if the OS goes down I have to reinstall every app.
It doesnt have to work like that, you just refuse to learn how to remedy your problem. try lolRAID, or backups, or you know, not touching the registry maybe.
I love on Amiga that apps are seperate from the OS.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
The "united" registry of crap-dome is a bad design. The solution people keep saying is stick your head in the sand. Doesn't make for much conversation does it?
What do you know about OS designs? Nothing.
We aren't saying stick your head in the sand.
yet again, we are saying.
THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM. IT IS ONLY A PROBLEM IF YOU'RE CLUELESS AND TAMPER WITH CONFUSING THINGS THAT ARE MEANT TO BE AUTOMAGICALLY HANDLED BY THE OPERATING SYSTEM.
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I'm sure you got that backwards. AmigaOS (and it's offshoots) are the only OSes I have where an application passes chunks of it's own data directly to the OS and vice versa and with each other.
Technically speaking, there's no separation between OS and applications at any meaningful level whatsoever.
You can install them anywhere you like too. You could put an app in your L: assign if you wanted...
I don't mean in MP sense or anything.
I mean in a more physical sense.
How f-ing cool would it be to have it in Windows like it is in Amiga?
I could have all my games and apps installed on a portable HD. Take it with me and plug it in a friends house and be able to run all "my" apps from "my" drive. You can do this with Amiga.
You can do this in Windows if you can find portable apps. Which is what I do for the apps I can find.
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How f-ing cool would it be to have it in Windows like it is in Amiga?
I could have all my games and apps installed on a portable HD. Take it with me and plug it in a friends house and be able to run all "my" apps from "my" drive. You can do this with Amiga.
You can do this in Windows if you can find portable apps. Which is what I do for the apps I can find.
alot of games work like this nowadays. I know WoW does for sure.
why do you want to run apps on your friends computer anyways. If you're with your friend you probably have better things to do.
especially if it's a girl.
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@AmigaHeretic
"It's really convenient when a friend plugs in his USB thumb drive to quickly grab a file and you have to reconfigure your whole OS."
Yes it is, so therefore I say, let me fix it.
@Karlos
"You do it "virtually every day" and yet you don't remember what it is?"
Perhaps the wrong choice of words, the point was that i almost always use the admin account so I avoid the hassle.
@the leander
"Within a limited user account:
Right click and select "Run as Admin".
Type in your admin password and you're sorted. This goes for drivers, program installation and PITA games whose anti cheating (punkbuster etc) kit requires admin rights to work properly."
Too much unnecessary stress.
Regardless, the best computer is Amiga.
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Too much unnecessary stress.
Typing out your waste of a reply was more work than doing the admin PW thing..
Regardless, the best computer WAS Amiga.
Fixed that for you.
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I could have all my games and apps installed on a portable HD. Take it with me and plug it in a friends house and be able to run all "my" apps from "my" drive. You can do this with Amiga.
Try that with WordWorth, or any other application that installs assigns and libs necessary for it to run on a system that hasn't had it installed. Watch as they fall on their arse.
The fact is, you're talking utter nonsense. Especially when it comes to the more complex applications the Amiga has.
There are plenty of apps out there, including big name apps that offer "portable" versions, as Arkhan says, a lot of games are going this way.
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Typing out your waste of a reply was more work than doing the admin PW thing..
Regardless, the best computer WAS Amiga.
Fixed that for you.
I still think it's the best computer. The Amiga is about the user should have control on the computer, not the opposite.
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Too much unnecessary stress.
Reducing your risk to malware and every once in a while having to type in an admin password counts as stress these days?
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q285/the_leander/itburns.jpg)
Regardless, the best computer WAS Amiga.
And not even the best in it's class.
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There are plenty of apps out there, including big name apps that offer "portable" versions, as Arkhan says, a lot of games are going this way.
the reason for this is mostly because of the patch process most games do now.
You install the base game and have patches over the net. So they try to make the game install-free. The base game install is usually just copying files from one thing (CD) to the other (HDD directory).
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Reducing your risk to malware and every once in a while having to type in an admin password counts as stress these days?
Well, if it happens then I allow my antivirus and malware programs to fix it.
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Well, if it happens then I allow my antivirus and malware programs to fix it.
I'll let you in on a little secret here.
Pay close attention to this bit:
If your system is compromised by anything even remotely modern in terms of malware, the chances of you being able to remove the infection is somewhere between no chance and nada.
When you get hit, the only way to genuinely be sure of it being clear is to do a clean install from behind a router or hardware firewall.
By running as Admin, you make the malware writers job a damn sight easier since you offer them complete open access to all the recesses of your computer.
It is a truly massive vector for infection you are exposing.
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Well, if it happens then I allow my antivirus and malware programs to fix it.
You are making a blatant mistake in assuming they are even aware of the intrusion. New threats invariably appear before updates to combat said threats.
As the_leander says, if you are running as admin, you are taking an unnecessary risk. If you are admin, then almost every process you create is running as admin. That includes any malware you pick up.
The amiga is a single user platform, but the majority of other systems employ a multiuser model for a damned good reason.
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alot of games work like this nowadays. I know WoW does for sure.
why do you want to run apps on your friends computer anyways. If you're with your friend you probably have better things to do.
especially if it's a girl.
On my thumbdrive I have Photoshop, Visual Studio 2008, FF, Opera, Maya, and several games.
Portable photoshop and maya are really handy to take with you. My genuine install of Maya I think actually starts up slower then the portable version.
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Did you buy all these softwares, or did you lolpirate them.
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A typical Windows Tech day is reformat, Reinstall OS, Reinstall all the Apps, re-setup all the apps.
Interesting. Do continue. What, pray tell, brings you to this conclusion? And, please quantify your terms: what is typical? what is a tech? and what time period constitutes a day?
Because, let me tell you, supporting several hundred Windows machines, this most certainly is not my typical day. Ever. In 15 years. In fact, it is fairly infrequent that I come across a Windows installation so hosed that this is necessary. I would say, perhaps once a month, one out of several hundred Windows machines, and never the same machine more than once.
Every OS Sucks
http://www.deadtroll.com/video/ossuckscable.html
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Did you buy all these softwares, or did you lolpirate them.
I own them. Maya I got discounted through work, but was still the most expensive. All MS software I get free through MSDN. Maya's an older version now (2008). Old being a somewhat relative term since a new version is released about every 6 months much like PS. I got mine 2 years ago. In that time it's been version 2008(mine), 2009, 2010, and 2011 is out now.
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Interesting. Do continue. What, pray tell, brings you to this conclusion? And, please quantify your terms: what is typical? what is a tech? and what time period constitutes a day?
Because, let me tell you, supporting several hundred Windows machines, this most certainly is not my typical day. Ever. In 15 years. In fact, it is fairly infrequent that I come across a Windows installation so hosed that this is necessary. I would say, perhaps once a month, one out of several hundred Windows machines, and never the same machine more than once.
Every OS Sucks
http://www.deadtroll.com/video/ossuckscable.html
A tech that works on "personal" computers.
I'm guessing your "several hundred" Windows machines are used in a business environment where people are not "as likely" (though I'm sure it happens) to be installing random software, surfing porn, and just generally fucking around. And are more likely just used as Dumb terminals running software off a server somewhere.
If you set up Windows and never change anything, which I'd bet is the typical box at your work, then Windows is fine.
However if you actually "use it" Windows has a lot more problems. Since you work in a little box outside of the reality real techs work in, I'll forgive you for not knowing what the real world is like.
.
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However if you actually "use it" Windows has a lot more problems. Since you work in a little box outside of the reality real techs work in, I'll forgive you for not knowing what the real world is like.
.
Man, someone ate some Ignorance w/ a side of Condescension for breakfast this morning.
You'd be surprised how much stuff people do at work on work computers.
also, given that I am officially my family's computerfixer, and that I've dealt with at least 20 of their machines/mishaps by now, and they've never required a full blown wipe. These are computers used in the real world. Every day.
i think maybe you should just give up and stop talking, because you're just digging yourself a huge hole with a tombstone marked FAIL.
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Man, someone ate some Ignorance w/ a side of Condescension for breakfast this morning.
You'd be surprised how much stuff people do at work on work computers.
also, given that I am officially my family's computerfixer, and that I've dealt with at least 20 of their machines/mishaps by now, and they've never required a full blown wipe. These are computers used in the real world. Every day.
i think maybe you should just give up and stop talking, because you're just digging yourself a huge hole with a tombstone marked FAIL.
I'm just saying, we all have a different perspective which is based on the corner of the world we see.
I did a Yellow Pages search for "computer repair" in Tallahassee, FL
94 computer repair businesses came up in an initial search.
I'm sure they are all just like the Maytag repair man though. Sitting their with nothing to do because Windows is so super sweet.
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LOL. Was it my big mouth and A.org hackers or the bad weather here which made us lose the connection with the ISP in over two hours.
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You are making a blatant mistake in assuming they are even aware of the intrusion. New threats invariably appear before updates to combat said threats.
As the_leander says, if you are running as admin, you are taking an unnecessary risk. If you are admin, then almost every process you create is running as admin. That includes any malware you pick up.
The amiga is a single user platform, but the majority of other systems employ a multiuser model for a damned good reason.
OK, I will not be lazy.
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LOL. Was it my big mouth and A.org hackers or the bad weather here which made us lose the connection with the ISP in over two hours.
Are you using a Windows machine? Could be your registry. :hammer:
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You are making a blatant mistake in assuming they are even aware of the intrusion. New threats invariably appear before updates to combat said threats.
As the_leander says, if you are running as admin, you are taking an unnecessary risk. If you are admin, then almost every process you create is running as admin. That includes any malware you pick up.
Great so I should run as a limited user while my Malware runs as Admin. :)
The amiga is a single user platform, but the majority of other systems employ a multiuser model for a damned good reason.
What reason is that?
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A tech that works on "personal" computers.
I'm guessing your "several hundred" Windows machines are used in a business environment where people are not "as likely" (though I'm sure it happens) to be installing random software, surfing porn, and just generally fucking around. And are more likely just used as Dumb terminals running software off a server somewhere.
If you set up Windows and never change anything, which I'd bet is the typical box at your work, then Windows is fine.
However if you actually "use it" Windows has a lot more problems. Since you work in a little box outside of the reality real techs work in, I'll forgive you for not knowing what the real world is like..
Wrong on all counts, smart ass. I support business and home computers, and I will refrain from making specific statements which would serve to prove your conclusions to be false on other grounds. Just as you make biased and ungrounded assertions on topics about which you do not know enough to make such conclusions, you make an assumption about what I do, and are patently incorrect.
I would provide you with the opportunity to spin the wheel again, perhaps even make other statements about my life about which you know absolutely squat, but you will most assuredly shoot wide and miss by far again.
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Are you using a Windows machine? Could be your registry. :hammer:
Yes, wondows is a bundle of shit, and this computer is hacked now.:lol:
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I'm just saying, we all have a different perspective which is based on the corner of the world we see.
I did a Yellow Pages search for "computer repair" in Tallahassee, FL
94 computer repair businesses came up in an initial search.
I'm sure they are all just like the Maytag repair man though. Sitting their with nothing to do because Windows is so super sweet.
THEIR -- THERE (inb4 grammar Nazi. Communications is paramount to the survival of a society, and part of communication is the proper use of the communications protocols.)
Interestingly, I field calls and inquiries at least a couple of times a week asking where someone can get their Mac repaired locally, and I can only direct them to one place. They huff and sigh and moan and complain.
The reason you will find 94 business listed for Tallahassee, FL, performing computer repair (I notice your search was not limited to Windows repair,) and your search will likely not turn up several dozen other businesses like my own, is that we have literally thousands of businesses in Tallahassee. Computers break.
As I stated before, in many cases it is a hardware issue. What will be the ultimate demise of your Amiga? Hardware. What is the ultimate demise of most computers which I contact? Hardware. But, the question often becomes, why does modern hardware fail so much? The simple answer is that we, as consumers, often demand to stay on the bleeding edge of technology. The bleeding edge is very sharp.
I did work last week at the airport. I replaced an AT&T Paradyne modem manufactured in 1993 which ran a 9.6k frame-relay circuit for an aviation ground computer network. The replacement modem was another AT&T Paradyne manufactured in 1995. But why use such old technology? Because it is tried, true, well-tested, and found to be exceptionally reliable. The same could be said about the Amiga and other "retro" or "classic" machines -- they are hardened technology which just work (though, not limited to such machines as quite a bit of older PC hardware is the same.)
Much the same that 160GB 2.5" laptop hard drives were considered unreliable and had high failure rates when they were introduced. Now, 160GB 2.5" laptop hard drives are considered the low-end staple, and they are known and expected to have full life spans.
But, back to my counterpoint. We have thousands of business in Tallahassee. Each of them has at least one computer. The majority of them run Windows, and some of them run Mac. Irrespective of the operating system, all of them need technology support to a large degree because these business are run by people who have much better things to do during their 18 hour work day than do necessary upgrades or installations on their computer, irrespective of the easy learning curve. Much like I do not have the time, motivation, nor desire right now to change the oil in my car or learn how to work on it when it does not run -- I have experts to whom I defer while I continue to run my business (interchangeable with "life" for other peoples' circumstances,) much as the same shop which works on my car defers to my expertise for technology.
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THEIR -- THERE (inb4 grammar Nazi. Communications is paramount to the survival of a society, and part of communication is the proper use of the communications protocols.)
Interestingly, I field calls and inquiries at least a couple of times a week asking where someone can get their Mac repaired locally, and I can only direct them to one place. They huff and sigh and moan and complain.
The reason you will find 94 business listed for Tallahassee, FL, performing computer repair (I notice your search was not limited to Windows repair,) and your search will likely not turn up several dozen other businesses like my own, is that we have literally thousands of businesses in Tallahassee. Computers break.
As I stated before, in many cases it is a hardware issue. What will be the ultimate demise of your Amiga? Hardware. What is the ultimate demise of most computers which I contact? Hardware. But, the question often becomes, why does modern hardware fail so much? The simple answer is that we, as consumers, often demand to stay on the bleeding edge of technology. The bleeding edge is very sharp.
I did work last week at the airport. I replaced an AT&T Paradyne modem manufactured in 1993 which ran a 9.6k frame-relay circuit for an aviation ground computer network. The replacement modem was another AT&T Paradyne manufactured in 1995. But why use such old technology? Because it is tried, true, well-tested, and found to be exceptionally reliable. The same could be said about the Amiga and other "retro" or "classic" machines -- they are hardened technology which just work (though, not limited to such machines as quite a bit of older PC hardware is the same.)
Much the same that 160GB 2.5" laptop hard drives were considered unreliable and had high failure rates when they were introduced. Now, 160GB 2.5" laptop hard drives are considered the low-end staple, and they are known and expected to have full life spans.
But, back to my counterpoint. We have thousands of business in Tallahassee. Each of them has at least one computer. The majority of them run Windows, and some of them run Mac. Irrespective of the operating system, all of them need technology support to a large degree because these business are run by people who have much better things to do during their 18 hour work day than do necessary upgrades or installations on their computer, irrespective of the easy learning curve. Much like I do not have the time, motivation, nor desire right now to change the oil in my car or learn how to work on it when it does not run -- I have experts to whom I defer while I continue to run my business (interchangeable with "life" for other peoples' circumstances,) much as the same shop which works on my car defers to my expertise for technology.
See, look at your post. You are easily 10 times smarter than me. You know Windows is a pain in the ass, often. :)
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I'm just saying, we all have a different perspective which is based on the corner of the world we see.
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The corner you see is empty and has just you in it I think.
See, look at your post. You are easily 10 times smarter than me. You know Windows is a pain in the ass, often. :)
Also, either you're a slow learner, or you are just plain clueless. Every OS is a pain in the ass. They all have things we don't like that get in the way. They are all usually pretty easy to deal with. They then stop becoming pains in the ass.
Kinda like that registry. If you'd just keep your misinformed fingers out of there, you'd be set!
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Does it really make sense that all your Apps should be so tied into the OS that if you have to reinstall Windows you have to reinstall and reset up every single application on your computer?
Don't you think apps are tied on the Amiga as well ?
Most MUI apps will require libs/mcc to be copied into mui:libs. Reinstalling your OS means reinstalling *every single MCC/libs* required by your app. And there's no way to list which mcc is used by which app. Oh, and I'm not even talking about version problems (for example mcc making crash some apps,...) In addition to that, if your app added some stuff into startup-sequence/user-startup, it also means readding assign, path,...
Amiga's way of working with apps/dirs certainly isn't better. Sure, there are things that suck on Windows. But what's important:
- what sucks in Windows ?
- Or what can be improved in AmigaOS ?
I would say the second... Pointing at Windows flaws won't improve AmigaOS...
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I am still using the same system disk on the Amiga that I used in 1996. I've had some disk to disk copy then when I bought myself new hard drives or had craches,
but that was always a 1:1 copy. Disksalv, quarterback, rdb-recovery, snoopdos and Readme-files is good to have.
I have updated it from 3.0, 3.1, 3.5, 3.9 and gone back some times and have probably tested all tools, patches and apps that is possible to install on this system, well until 2005, it has not been so much activity after this on that computer.
edit: Forgot to say that i have a Directorys dated 1993 of tools on the disk that works well too. It is a kind of tempdir from my A500, but many of the programs work directly from the drawers.
So it's possible, and I do not think this is possible with Windows.
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Great so I should run as a limited user while my Malware runs as Admin. :)
You really should have taken Arkhans advice and quit whilst you were behind.
By running as a limited user, you reduce the risk of having malware that has unfettered access to your system. A lot of malware needs that full access to do the things it needs to.
What reason is that?
There are no demotivators I know of that could truly quantify how dumb that question is.
And you had the gall to bitch about OS architecture without understanding the benefits inherent within a multi user environment...
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q285/the_leander/stop-posting.jpg)
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So it's possible, and I do not think this is possible with Windows.
Sure it's possible to do backups with Windows, both of the OS, installed apps and everything in between.
There is a whole subset of the computing industry dedicated to offering a variety of backup solutions.
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I said nothing about backups, why worry about backups? Well, it's necessary with Winshit.
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I said nothing about backups, why worry about backups?
Transferring complete installed systems between disks as you described generally comes under the umbrella of backups in terms of software.
Well, it's necessary with Winshit.
It's necessary with all computers.
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@the_leander
You did not understand what I wrote. I just copyed (moved) the system to a new drive and this is not backuping, it's upgrading since the system continued to evolve and I do not fell back on the previous.
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@the_leander
You did not understand what I wrote. I just copyed (moved) the system to a new drive and this is not backuping, it's upgrading since the system continued to evolve and I do not fell back on the previous.
I understood what you meant, thanks.
There is software that allows you to move a complete windows system over to a new drive.
That software is usually considered to come under the heading of backup software.
--edit--
What I mean is, if you were looking for software to do this for you within a site along the line of say download.com or something similar, you would look under the heading of "backups".
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Hm, no need for special dedicated software for this on neither windows nor amiga.
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Most winodows machines are full of crap and will be re installed since the backup is too old.
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Most winodows machines are full of crap and will be re installed since the backup is too old.
Prove it.
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I understand almost none of all the mess and without any reasonable file name in the f..... WINDOWS directory.
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edit: Forgot to say that i have a Directorys dated 1993 of tools on the disk that works well too. It is a kind of tempdir from my A500, but many of the programs work directly from the drawers.
So it's possible, and I do not think this is possible with Windows.
Alot of windows software can work by copying folders around. I have software running on windows 7 that I haven't installed since I ran MSDOS (circa 1994).
Microsoft even promote it, it's called xcopy deployment.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa302347.aspx
For the apps that don't work like that you can often get portable versions
http://portableapps.com/
Let's not forget that their are apps on the Amiga that require installation, including copying files all over your boot partition. So it's not an operating system, it's down to the applications. Software these days is mainstream business, the bigger the business the lower the quality ( and that holds for more than just software ).
I don't think we can get the whole world to rely on software that was written 17 years ago though. A friend of mine is having trouble getting his iphone to sync now he's on ios4, itunes is a particularly hopeless piece of software. I doubt he's going to have much more luck trying to sync to an A500 though.
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Prove it.
Prove the opposite.
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Prove the opposite.
Uh, no, you made the claim, the onus is on you to back it up.
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Alot of windows software can work by copying folders around. I have software running on windows 7 that I haven't installed since I ran MSDOS (circa 1994).
Microsoft even promote it, it's called xcopy deployment.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa302347.aspx
For the apps that don't work like that you can often get portable versions
http://portableapps.com/
Let's not forget that their are apps on the Amiga that require installation, including copying files all over your boot partition. So it's not an operating system, it's down to the applications. Software these days is mainstream business, the bigger the business the lower the quality ( and that holds for more than just software ).
I don't think we can get the whole world to rely on software that was written 17 years ago though. A friend of mine is having trouble getting his iphone to sync now he's on ios4, itunes is a particularly hopeless piece of software. I doubt he's going to have much more luck trying to sync to an A500 though.
LOL. I think he'll have to try the 500, it works always best.
Yes there is a lot of software that does not touch the system in any way in windows.
I wrote it was a temp dir from the old Amiga500. The point was that i never needed to reformat and reinstall the entire system and applications. There are certain files and folders it's wise to have an extra copy of on the Amiga of course.
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Uh, no, you made the claim, the onus is on you to back it up.
There are people who need to test everything that seems interesting and get lots of crap on their computers that are not easy to clean up.
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There are people who need to test everything that seems interesting and get lots of crap on their computers that are not easy to clean up.
Nothing like this ever happens in AmigaOS, Linux, MacOS, Solaris, SCO Unix, AIX, FreeBSD, NetBSD, Be, GEM/TOS, etc. Clearly, this is a Windows-only problem.
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Nothing like this ever happens in AmigaOS, Linux, MacOS, Solaris, SCO Unix, AIX, FreeBSD, NetBSD, Be, GEM/TOS, etc. Clearly, this is a Windows-only problem.
I know you're being sarcastic, but ironically you're right.
At least for me it's only a problem with Windows, with the rest of the systems I don't have any problems keeping track of where files go an keeping the systems clean. I must admit I have not been running SCO Unix though.
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Nothing like this ever happens in AmigaOS, Linux, MacOS, Solaris, SCO Unix, AIX, FreeBSD, NetBSD, Be, GEM/TOS, etc. Clearly, this is a Windows-only problem.
It's a Windows feature.
:laughing: