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The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Amiga Emulation => Topic started by: guest11527 on October 29, 2014, 10:02:55 AM

Title: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on October 29, 2014, 10:02:55 AM
Recently, I hear often voices "why don't you try XXX on an emulator if you don't have access to your hardware". Here I'm trying to give an answer, and I'm also trying to give hints how to make "emulation right" because I believe that there's currently a lot wrong with all the emulators I've seen (e-uae,uae,fs-uae). Having written emulators (though for other systems) as well, I'm hopefully able to provide some positive critique.

1) The keyboard. Not everybody is using a US keyboard, and even with local keyboards permitted, users are free to redefine keys. The Amiga keyboard has an extra key, the backslash/vertical bar key on the top right that is not present on standard layouts, but this key is still essential for programming. Write a C program without the backslash is challenging. I usually have caps lock and control interchanged, but the emulator does not get track of that. Instead, it maps caps lock where it believes it should be, but where it isn't. Result is a non-functioning keyboard.

Solutions: Yes, this is hard. Two keyboard layouts are involved. The PC keyboard, and the Amiga keyboard. The solution I have found in "atari++" is: If the key maps to a regular printable character, perform the mapping by position. If the user presses the "Z" key, emulate the key that is at the same position as on the Amiga keyboard. This way, local keymaps work. If the key is a function key, i.e. "shift" or "caps lock", perform the mapping by function, not by position. Caps and Control are always the same position on a PC keyboard, no matter which national layout is used, so allow the user to change the position of these keys. Kes that are not on the PC keyboard should be emulated in an obvious matter. Backslash: AltGr+? for a German keyboard, hence "map by function". Simply *not* mapping this key is not helping.

2) Mouse grab. This is really anoying. In the window, you have either two mouse pointers, or you have one mouse pointer and do not know how to leave the window. Even if you enter the configuration menu of FS-UAE, you do not have your mouse. What do you do to regain control? I didn't know the magic word (F12+g) so I killed the emulator from a console. Yuck!

Solution: a) If the user clicks into the window, make the "native" mouse pointer non-intrusive. A single point is good enough. If some configuration menu is shown that requires user interaction, un-grab the mouse to allow configuration. And finally, use a well-accepted key-combination for ungrabbing. VMWare has set the standards (Ctrl+Alt), so why the heck not simply use that. Or, at least, show the mapping how to ungrab as soon as the mouse is grabbed. This should be the minimum standard.

3) Configuration: With uae, I have a magic text file. Bad, but doable. FS-UAE adds a graphical menu which allows to configure some, but not not all properties, and a graphical launcher that allows again to configure some other, but not all properties. Worse, if you check the internet for what the options are, you find some incomplete documentation. If you check where you have to *put* the configuration file, you get inconsistent results, and the right place (the current directory) is not even mentioned.

Solution: If you make the emulator configurable, expose *all* configuration items to the user by its interface. They need not be reachable by a single click, but there should be some GUI *within the emulator* to modify them. Text files are fine, but please put them in one consistent place that is acceptable by the system standards. On linux, this is: a dot-file in your home directory, and a default file in /etc/. Do*not* use other directories ($HOME/.config or $HOME/Desktop are bad places, unless you're part of a GUI framework that uses the same convention). Avoid "starters" or separate "configuration programs". Make command line options consistent with the GUI elements, and finally: Provide proper documentation with all options explained, and documentation that is up to date. A man page is fine. A web page is fine. But please, provide it.

4) Make it working. Or at least, mark options that are not working as "experimental". FS-UAE has an option to emulate a 68040 MMU. Nice. Try to use it with the mmu.library and see it hang. Not nice. Wouldn't that be the obvious test case for an MMU emulation? Apparently, not. Ok, if that's not what it is good for, what else? Maybe the code isn't quite debugged or complete yet. That's fine. But then, please mark it as such so that the average user can avoid it.

Resolution: Mark experimental configuration options as experimental. To make something stable, make at least the obvious tests.

5) Bad performance. Yes, there's probably little you can do about it. This is here a (old, but not so old) 2.6Ghz Athlon. Yet, emulation speed is probably something in the ball-park of a 68030@25Mhz. Slow, and even worse, inconsistent. Audio hick-ups, so audio is not exactly usable. Booting up the machine, and the emulation crawls. It gets better after a minute, I don't know why. It's probably good enough to play a game for an unexpanded 68K, but it's not good enough for power users - if there are any left. Apparently, emulator writers see the Amiga as a "games machine". Probably that's what it was, or how CBM sold it, and that's why it died. Amiga was actually a tad more than that, and emulation should try to catch up with some of these uses.

Resultion: Yes, that's hard, I understand, and there's little that can be done. My solution is not to go for software emulation in first place. Use an FPGA, you get guaranteed performance.

In the end, every time I tried emulation, I felt disappointed. It was simply not usable for me. The keyboard issue is the worst. I can't work without a working keyboard. In the end, I still power up the real hardware if I have access to it, and if I need to do some Amiga work.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: OlafS3 on October 29, 2014, 10:08:07 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776065
Recently, I hear often voices "why don't you try XXX on an emulator if you don't have access to your hardware". Here I'm trying to give an answer, and I'm also trying to give hints how to make "emulation right" because I believe that there's currently a lot wrong with all the emulators I've seen (e-uae,uae,fs-uae). Having written emulators (though for other systems) as well, I'm hopefully able to provide some positive critique.

1) The keyboard. Not everybody is using a US keyboard, and even with local keyboards permitted, users are free to redefine keys. The Amiga keyboard has an extra key, the backslash/vertical bar key on the top right that is not present on standard layouts, but this key is still essential for programming. Write a C program without the backslash is challenging. I usually have caps lock and control interchanged, but the emulator does not get track of that. Instead, it maps caps lock where it believes it should be, but where it isn't. Result is a non-functioning keyboard.

Solutions: Yes, this is hard. Two keyboard layouts are involved. The PC keyboard, and the Amiga keyboard. The solution I have found in "atari++" is: If the key maps to a regular printable character, perform the mapping by position. If the user presses the "Z" key, emulate the key that is at the same position as on the Amiga keyboard. This way, local keymaps work. If the key is a function key, i.e. "shift" or "caps lock", perform the mapping by function, not by position. Caps and Control are always the same position on a PC keyboard, no matter which national layout is used, so allow the user to change the position of these keys. Kes that are not on the PC keyboard should be emulated in an obvious matter. Backslash: AltGr+? for a German keyboard, hence "map by function". Simply *not* mapping this key is not helping.

2) Mouse grab. This is really anoying. In the window, you have either two mouse pointers, or you have one mouse pointer and do not know how to leave the window. Even if you enter the configuration menu of FS-UAE, you do not have your mouse. What do you do to regain control? I didn't know the magic word (F12+g) so I killed the emulator from a console. Yuck!

Solution: a) If the user clicks into the window, make the "native" mouse pointer non-intrusive. A single point is good enough. If some configuration menu is shown that requires user interaction, un-grab the mouse to allow configuration. And finally, use a well-accepted key-combination for ungrabbing. VMWare has set the standards (Ctrl+Alt), so why the heck not simply use that. Or, at least, show the mapping how to ungrab as soon as the mouse is grabbed. This should be the minimum standard.

3) Configuration: With uae, I have a magic text file. Bad, but doable. FS-UAE adds a graphical menu which allows to configure some, but not not all properties, and a graphical launcher that allows again to configure some other, but not all properties. Worse, if you check the internet for what the options are, you find some incomplete documentation. If you check where you have to *put* the configuration file, you get inconsistent results, and the right place (the current directory) is not even mentioned.

Solution: If you make the emulator configurable, expose *all* configuration items to the user by its interface. They need not be reachable by a single click, but there should be some GUI *within the emulator* to modify them. Text files are fine, but please put them in one consistent place that is acceptable by the system standards. On linux, this is: a dot-file in your home directory, and a default file in /etc/. Do*not* use other directories ($HOME/.config or $HOME/Desktop are bad places, unless you're part of a GUI framework that uses the same convention). Avoid "starters" or separate "configuration programs". Make command line options consistent with the GUI elements, and finally: Provide proper documentation with all options explained, and documentation that is up to date. A man page is fine. A web page is fine. But please, provide it.

4) Make it working. Or at least, mark options that are not working as "experimental". FS-UAE has an option to emulate a 68040 MMU. Nice. Try to use it with the mmu.library and see it hang. Not nice. Wouldn't that be the obvious test case for an MMU emulation? Apparently, not. Ok, if that's not what it is good for, what else? Maybe the code isn't quite debugged or complete yet. That's fine. But then, please mark it as such so that the average user can avoid it.

Resolution: Mark experimental configuration options as experimental. To make something stable, make at least the obvious tests.

5) Bad performance. Yes, there's probably little you can do about it. This is here a (old, but not so old) 2.6Ghz Athlon. Yet, emulation speed is probably something in the ball-park of a 68030@25Mhz. Slow, and even worse, inconsistent. Audio hick-ups, so audio is not exactly usable. Booting up the machine, and the emulation crawls. It gets better after a minute, I don't know why. It's probably good enough to play a game for an unexpanded 68K, but it's not good enough for power users - if there are any left. Apparently, emulator writers see the Amiga as a "games machine". Probably that's what it was, or how CBM sold it, and that's why it died. Amiga was actually a tad more than that, and emulation should try to catch up with some of these uses.

Resultion: Yes, that's hard, I understand, and there's little that can be done. My solution is not to go for software emulation in first place. Use an FPGA, you get guaranteed performance.

In the end, every time I tried emulation, I felt disappointed. It was simply not usable for me. The keyboard issue is the worst. I can't work without a working keyboard. In the end, I still power up the real hardware if I have access to it, and if I need to do some Amiga work.

Just a question... you are mostly talking about FS-UAE I believe? Have you activated JIT? I test Aros Vision with FS-UAE on Windows and it is fast (WinUAE feels a little faster still). "Slow" sounds a little strange to me.

WinUAE supports almost everything by GUI so what you write is only valid for FS-UAE (GUI is limited there). But you can add options in the GUI (needing to know them of course)

I had setup short tutorials for both WinUAE and FS-UAE:

http://www.aros-platform.de/html/users.html

they are not up-to-date but at least a good start
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: danwood on October 29, 2014, 11:15:50 AM
Try WinUAE, it really is streets ahead of E and FS-UAE.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: kolla on October 29, 2014, 11:30:33 AM
The keyboard issue is the same for NG systems too. My solition for many years was to use a real amiga keyboard on Linux, using catweasel card. It would be nice with new real amiga USB keyboards.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: OlafS3 on October 29, 2014, 11:38:38 AM
Quote from: kolla;776070
The keyboard issue is the same for NG systems too. My solition for many years was to use a real amiga keyboard on Linux, using catweasel card. It would be nice with new real amiga USB keyboards.

I will myself test it

On Magellan (if used as desktop) you can configure every key and key combination
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: fishy_fiz on October 29, 2014, 11:56:04 AM
You can also redefine keyboard layout through the emulator config, so it really not a problem given that a pc keyboard has a few extra keys.

Pretty much none of your points ring true for me, but to each their own.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: wawrzon on October 29, 2014, 11:59:07 AM
@thor

i agree about keyboard issues. nothing beats a real amiga keyboard for real amiga use, except when the keys get stuck due to age ;)

but speedwise uae with jit or even without is pretty snappy executing 68k code on a regular pc these days. i am using it on setups down to p4 mobile on ocassions, and it is satisfactory in my book. of course its just an intermediate tool in my eyes, but winuae is a good one, and fs-uae is probably likewise. so i dont feel like avoiding it to get something done for amiga, like test something there before i take it over to real hardware on a cf card.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: wawrzon on October 29, 2014, 12:05:17 PM
@thor

by the way the autor of fs-uae is a member on eab, but not here i guess. if you like to deliver some feedback to him as how to make his emulator better, it would be a sensible choice to register there and talk to him directly. also toni is a member on eab. most technical amiga discussions, whatever subject, are carried out over there. and pretty much every member here with some knowledge and intetntions is a member there, while the opposite seems not to apply.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on October 29, 2014, 02:15:55 PM
FS UAE is resource hungry. It is designed for multiplayer online.

Are you using an Athlon II ? I'm pretty sure my Athlon I didn't handle UAE that well.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on October 29, 2014, 02:30:10 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;776066
Just a question... you are mostly talking about FS-UAE I believe? Have you activated JIT? I test Aros Vision with FS-UAE on Windows and it is fast (WinUAE feels a little faster still). "Slow" sounds a little strange to me.
I'm talking about any variant of UAE I could get hands on (uae,e-uae,fs-uae), all the same problems. No, there is no windows here, and no, I don't see why I should finance Microsoft for Amiga-usage. I don't see options for JIT here.
A tutorial is a nice thing to have, but a program that requires a tutorial to be usable is not.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: kjmann on October 29, 2014, 03:01:51 PM
I would have to agree with you thomas. I also don't much care for Emulators and have never found one that really gives the same vibe as the real thing. I notice a difference when it comes to game control and keyboard response time. even after all these years of UAE and Fellow before that, There is still a slight feeling of delay in response time compared to the real thing.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: OlafS3 on October 29, 2014, 03:03:20 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776086
I'm talking about any variant of UAE I could get hands on (uae,e-uae,fs-uae), all the same problems. No, there is no windows here, and no, I don't see why I should finance Microsoft for Amiga-usage. I don't see options for JIT here.
A tutorial is a nice thing to have, but a program that requires a tutorial to be usable is not.

On FS-UAE GUI there is something like specific options (main menu). There you can manual put in custom parameters.

when you put in "uae_cachesize = 8192" the JIT is activated and it is much faster. Whyever it is not activated by default. On WinUAE you can do the same in GUI.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: wawrzon on October 29, 2014, 03:05:46 PM
seriously, thomas, none is trying to sell you on windows. as i said, many will agree with you that sitting in front of actual amiga is something else than sitting in front of a pc running an emu of whatever kind. i among others. but i dont get it how ranting about it here is going to achieve anything. except it is an introduction to some fresh news about gunnars fpga core.

one way or the other the best way to solve your problems, receive assistance and supply feedback is via eab, as i mentioned before.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: buzz on October 29, 2014, 03:25:34 PM
Yeh - would do better to report things to the authors. If they don't know about it they can't change stuff. Almost as bad as cosmos! ;-)

also seems to be a bit of PEBCAK :)

as a linux user, I have found fs-uae to be excellent - and definitely the best uae we have ever had available, and it works very well on my system for development (Although I still prefer cross compiling some stuff). JIT works too (install x86 version if on 64bit)
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: cgutjahr on October 29, 2014, 04:54:42 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776086
I'm talking about any variant of UAE I could get hands on (uae,e-uae,fs-uae), all the same problems.

Everything but FS-UAE is not worth your time if you want to do more than boot a Lemmings disk image.

FS-UAE used to have a known problem with CPU emulation, they were discussing it over at EAB. Some 68k software Author even came up with Benchmarks to narrow down the problem.

Maybe you could help narrowing it down further.

Quote

No, there is no windows here, and no, I don't see why I should finance Microsoft for Amiga-usage.

You can run WinUAE under WINE. I'm not a big fan of WINE, but I had to access a HDF image with a nonstandard geometry, and only WinUAE supports that. Works perfectly fine, and WinUAE is noticably faster than FS-UAE, due to the bug mentioned above.

Quote

 I don't see options for JIT here. A tutorial is a nice thing to have, but a program that requires a tutorial to be usable is not.

You haven't used mmu.library in a while, I take it ;)
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: kamelito on October 29, 2014, 05:11:14 PM
Worst thing about emulation is CPU at 100%, transforming a nice silent laptop into a hot noisy hoover.
Kamelito
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: wawrzon on October 29, 2014, 05:30:40 PM
Quote from: cgutjahr;776094
You haven't used mmu.library in a while, I take it ;)


well, now that you mention it, winuae support for mmu is restricted to non-jit mode, this might be a show stopper for thomas.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Linde on October 29, 2014, 05:48:08 PM
I've been using FS-UAE for a while, and it's been very useful. Before that I used WinUAE, which seems to have more features, but FS-UAE has everything I need, really. Can't tell you about performance, this machine is quite a power horse so it's all smooth to me. A problem that seems inherent with emulators is that there is a slight input/output lag. If it wasn't for that, I would probably only use emulators, but I'm getting more and more used to it.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on October 29, 2014, 06:44:22 PM
Quote from: buzz;776091
also seems to be a bit of PEBCAK :)

It's arguable whether the mouse grab is a matter of PEBCAK - one only has to read the manual and get used to it. The current choice is probably "only" a matter of a bad user interface design. That's bad enough, but it doesn't "break" anything. It only makes matters harder than necessary.

However, if I cannot enter a backslash from the keyboard, then that's a real show-stopper. I cannot work with it if the backslash is missing, no chance.

Of course, one can argue that all these emulators address a completely different use-case, namely that of a (causal) gamer that wants to play some old Amiga games. For that, it might be actually sufficient, and more convenient than a real machine. However, that's not quite the point I'm trying to make. I wanted to give my personal impression why it is not usable for me, and for my use-case.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: kolla on October 29, 2014, 07:21:49 PM
The MMU emulation is there, backported from Aranym, mostly for those of us who want to run Linux or BSD under m68k emulation. And for that it works fine. And yes, JIT and MMU emulation are mutually exclusive, you cannot have both.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: kolla on October 29, 2014, 07:31:32 PM
One way out is an old A1200 keyboard and a keyrah, then you get a (very bulky) amiga USB keyboard. With some luck you can cram a PC mobo in the case too, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: psxphill on October 29, 2014, 07:36:19 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776065
1) The keyboard. Not everybody is using a US keyboard, and even with local keyboards permitted, users are free to redefine keys.

The only way to make it work reliably is to pass keys through by position and ignore what the host operating system would map it to. But this means you can't use other input methods. There are various compromises you can make, some will work better than others for you but worse for others.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on October 29, 2014, 07:57:34 PM
Quote from: psxphill;776110
The only way to make it work reliably is to pass keys through by position and ignore what the host operating system would map it to. But this means you can't use other input methods. There are various compromises you can make, some will work better than others for you but worse for others.

No, not really. Look, the problem is not all new to me. As said, I also wrote (and still maintain) an emulator, and was stuck pretty much with the same problem - how to map keys. The procedure that worked best for me was really to make the mapping dependent on the keys, or rather their function. It is certainly not impossible to create a useful keyboard mapping, but ignoring the host layout -or- ignoring the client keyboard layout is both not a solution as it means that certain keys are not even reachable.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: fishy_fiz on October 30, 2014, 12:53:11 AM
There's also amithlon I guess, which is significantly faster than any other amiga emulator out there (especially with fpu performance). It's also void of the input lag "problem".
Im still a bit unclear about the slash character "issue". Every single keyboard I have has both forward and back slash keys. Backslash also has same character as amiga for shift+backslash (not sure what a person would call that character though).
Most of my coding is done under emulation, and keys have never even crossed my mind. Theyre just there.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on October 30, 2014, 03:07:01 AM
Ah, I always hated emulation.  Nothing beats the real thing.  Although I do occasionally use a Commodore 64 emulator on my Amiga, since I don't have desk space for a C64 setup.  I realize my PC could emulate a C64 waaay faster, but yeah.  Just like keeping it all as close to original as possible.  ;)
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Thorham on October 30, 2014, 06:32:58 AM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;776144
Ah, I always hated emulation.
What's wrong with emulation? It's great for running GCC :) It was also great when my Amiga was broken :)

Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;776144
Nothing beats the real thing.
Indeed!
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Georg on October 30, 2014, 08:27:50 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776105

However, if I cannot enter a backslash from the keyboard, then that's a real show-stopper. I cannot work with it if the backslash is missing, no chance.


Make your own keymap by modifying the asm source of the Amiga "d" keymap (can be found on Amiga Dev CD 2.1).

Code: [Select]

-       DC.B    '_','-','?',$DF ; sharp s, ?, -, _
+       DC.B    '|','\','?',$DF ; sharp s, ?, -, _
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Faerytale on October 30, 2014, 08:50:58 AM
For me Amiga is all about the software! WinUAE is a gods gift(i mean Toni Wilen). no need for old clunky hardware here :)
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Georg on October 30, 2014, 10:51:55 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776065
Write a C program without the backslash is challenging.


Btw, when using UAE it makes more sense to use text editors running in the host OS (UAE can mount host directories as volumes). AOS needs to be rebooted -> host text editors stay open. No need to restart/reopen all your source files.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: psxphill on October 30, 2014, 09:11:56 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776111
but ignoring the host layout -or- ignoring the client keyboard layout is both not a solution as it means that certain keys are not even reachable.

How can keys not be reachable if every real hardware key is mapped to an emulated hardware key?
 
 Mapping real keyboard scan codes to emulation is the only reliable way to emulate a keyboard in all circumstances and all locales.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on October 31, 2014, 12:40:11 AM
Quote from: psxphill;776203
How can keys not be reachable if every real hardware key is mapped to an emulated hardware key?
 
 Mapping real keyboard scan codes to emulation is the only reliable way to emulate a keyboard in all circumstances and all locales.

 Because the German Amiga keyboard has one extra key to the right of the backspace key, with the | and \ symbols printed on it a German PC keyboard does not have. The key does not exist. On the Amiga keyboard, it is cut off from the backspace key which has only half the size of its PC equivalent. Hence, you cannot type backspaces on UAE, neither pipes.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Thorham on October 31, 2014, 04:48:41 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776217
Because the German Amiga keyboard has one extra key to the right of the backspace key, with the | and \ symbols printed on it a German PC keyboard does not have. The key does not exist. On the Amiga keyboard, it is cut off from the backspace key which has only half the size of its PC equivalent. Hence, you cannot type backspaces on UAE, neither pipes.
Perhaps you should make Toni aware of this issue. He's on EAB regularly, and there's a good chance he has a solution. He may even implement a solution. That is, if you're using WinUae, of course.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: som99 on October 31, 2014, 06:39:08 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776217
Because the German Amiga keyboard has one extra key to the right of the backspace key, with the | and \ symbols printed on it a German PC keyboard does not have. The key does not exist. On the Amiga keyboard, it is cut off from the backspace key which has only half the size of its PC equivalent. Hence, you cannot type backspaces on UAE, neither pipes.

What they didn't keep it over the years?
Some Swedish keyboards still have it, even my mechanical QPAD MK80 has it! (love that keyboard, uses blue switches)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/1eqd1l.png)
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: fishy_fiz on October 31, 2014, 06:47:22 AM
Ah, of course, different regions.
I was a little baffled as to what the problem was for a while. Didn't even consider different keyboards for different regions. :)
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Minuous on October 31, 2014, 07:03:19 AM
>The Amiga keyboard has an extra key, the backslash/vertical bar key on the top right that is not present on standard layouts, but this key is still essential for programming.

That key isn't "extra", it has been on every keyboard I have seen in the last 25 years or so. So you bought a keyboard which is defective, as it is missing important keys, then blame the emulator for this!? And anyway this can be easily resolved by changing the keymap.

>VMWare has set the standards (Ctrl+Alt), so why the heck not simply use that. Or, at least, show the mapping how to ungrab as soon as the mouse is grabbed. This should be the minimum standard.

Ctrl+Tab works here for this. Titlebar also explains how to ungrab mouse.

>Provide proper documentation with all options explained, and documentation that is up to date. A man page is fine. A web page is fine. But please, provide it.

I agree, the UAE documentation is atrocious.

>This is here a (old, but not so old) 2.6Ghz Athlon. Yet, emulation speed is probably something in the ball-park of a 68030@25Mhz.

My host system is only 1.6GHz, but the emulation flies, much faster than any 68060 let alone 68030. Probably a configuration issue.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: wawrzon on October 31, 2014, 07:12:13 AM
Quote from: Minuous;776227

My host system is only 1.6GHz, but the emulation flies, much faster than any 68060 let alone 68030. Probably a configuration issue.


psst. dont tell him how fast the emulation really is, he might lose the confidence in gunnars fpga and stop suupporting him. ;P
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Georg on October 31, 2014, 08:08:17 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776217
Because the German Amiga keyboard has one extra key to the right of the backspace key, with the | and \ symbols printed on it a German PC keyboard does not have. The key does not exist. On the Amiga keyboard, it is cut off from the backspace key which has only half the size of its PC equivalent. Hence, you cannot type backspaces on UAE, neither pipes.


So what should UAE do during each of this "stages":

1) User presses ALTGR key
2) User presses "ß ? \" key (UAE can detect this now as host vanilla backspace key)
3) User releases ALTGR key
4) User releases "ß ?`\" key

UAE needs to pass Amiga rawkey codes to the emulated hardware.

On a french PC keyboard the stages would be like this (if I used xkb tools correctly):

1) User presses ALTGR key
2) User presses "_ 8 \" key (UAE can detect this now as host vanilla backspace key)
3) User releases ALTGR key
4) User releases "_ 8 \" key

On an italian PC keyboard it would be:

1) User presses key at the left side of "1" (UAE can detect this now as host vanilla backspace key)
2) User releases key at the left side of "1"
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: paolone on October 31, 2014, 09:35:36 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776065
2) Mouse grab. This is really anoying. In the window, you have either two mouse pointers, or you have one mouse pointer and do not know how to leave the window. Even if you enter the configuration menu of FS-UAE, you do not have your mouse. What do you do to regain control? I didn't know the magic word (F12+g) so I killed the emulator from a console. Yuck!

Solution: a) If the user clicks into the window, make the "native" mouse pointer non-intrusive. A single point is good enough. If some configuration menu is shown that requires user interaction, un-grab the mouse to allow configuration. And finally, use a well-accepted key-combination for ungrabbing. VMWare has set the standards (Ctrl+Alt), so why the heck not simply use that. Or, at least, show the mapping how to ungrab as soon as the mouse is grabbed. This should be the minimum standard.

a1 - I'd hate to see that point on the screen. I prefer the current solution  most emultators followed to grab the pointer and leave just the guest one.

a2 - I'd kill anyone placing "ctrl+alt" as mouse release hotkey on a emulator, because I'm almost every time using virtual machines in VMware Player already, resulting in a disturbing, continuated loose of the guests pointer. BTW, the "magic key(s) + G" combination for ungrabbing pointer is already popular thanks to the fact the other virtualizers, for instance QEMU, use that.

Not very much to disagree about the rest...
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on October 31, 2014, 10:19:38 AM
Quote from: Minuous;776227
That key isn't "extra", it has been on every keyboard I have seen in the last 25 years or so. So you bought a keyboard which is defective, as it is missing important keys, then blame the emulator for this!? And anyway this can be easily resolved by changing the keymap.
Would you please stop the nonsense, please? Go here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout  This is standard German PC keyboard, you find it on every standard laptop, or keyboard you buy in the stores. It has three keys to the right of the "0" key: The sharp-s key, the accent keys, and the backspace key.  The standard German Amiga keyboard is different. It has *four* keys to the right of the "0" key. The sharp-s, the accent keys, the back-slash and pipe-key and the backspace key. Do I really need to make pictures to convince you? The German Amiga keyboard has *one* extra key compared to a standard German PC keyboard, and that key is essential.  The backslash on a standard PC-keyboard is reachable by AltGr+Sharp-S, and the pipe key is reachable by AltGr+, but none of these alternatives work on xxx-UAE.   Got it?  
Quote from: Minuous;776227
Ctrl+Tab works here for this. Titlebar also explains how to ungrab mouse.
No, it doesn't. F12+g does this, and no, the title bar does not say this. Once again, I have no Wind** here, and I don't consider bying one just for the purpose of Amiga emulation. And once again, there are established choices for this, and Ctrl+Tab is not one of them, but anyhow....  
Quote from: Minuous;776227
My host system is only 1.6GHz, but the emulation flies, much faster than any 68060 let alone 68030. Probably a configuration issue.

I tested this, if I recompile with i386 code instead of x64 code, I do get the JIT, speed is better, but only half of the speed of my 68060/40, and math is particularly bad. (Not that I need it). The only thing that works good is the memory bandwidth.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: psxphill on October 31, 2014, 11:50:51 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776217
Because the German Amiga keyboard has one extra key to the right of the backspace key, with the | and \ symbols printed on it a German PC keyboard does not have. The key does not exist. On the Amiga keyboard, it is cut off from the backspace key which has only half the size of its PC equivalent. Hence, you cannot type backspaces on UAE, neither pipes.

You can't hate emulators because your german pc keyboard is missing a key on your german amiga keyboard.

Does UAE not allow you to map keys?
 
 It's not an emulator I use often, it isn't really aimed at what I would use it for (and it appears you neither). I'm hoping for continued progress in MESS, but that is aimed at accuracy to real hardware (so hopefully one day it will get accurate chip ram bus contention etc). While WinUAE is also a little bit like amithlon, trying to make software run as fast as possible.
 
 I think a windows version of amithlon that can also run PPC software, with MESS for anything that hits the hardware is where I will end up.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on October 31, 2014, 03:00:32 PM
Quote from: psxphill;776252
You can't hate emulators because your german pc keyboard is missing a key on your german amiga keyboard.

It makes xx-UAE unusable because I cannot use it for programming. Try to write a C program without a backslash. Yes, you can probably get used to press meta-hyper-super-alt-x-s to get it, but no, it still doesn't make this a good solution.  
Quote from: psxphill;776252
Does UAE not allow you to map keys?
If it does, then the manual does not expose this information. Besides, once you learned to type with ten fingers, any deviation of the keyboard layout is really pretty confusing. AltGr+ß is bad enough for the backslash, but the character is at least available on a PC keyboard. On an emulated Amiga keyboard, I first have to run in circles to get it. On a real Amiga keyboard, it's a dedicated key.

Don't get me wrong. It's a nice program, it's worth for playing an Amiga game once in a while. But it's not a replacement for working, probably because it was never meant to be.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: OlafS3 on October 31, 2014, 03:15:54 PM
You talk about FS-UAE GUI. Indeed FS-UAE GUI is much more simple than WinUAE that exposes almost every feature without you requiring to edit any text file.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Leffmann on October 31, 2014, 03:28:42 PM
How come cross-developing is not an option then?

The first thing I noticed when I picked up Amiga after 10 years, was how clunky AmigaOS felt to work in compared to newer systems, but with tools like vbcc and vamos it was relatively easy to move it all out to the host, and for the most part I could automate everything from building to running, so I rarely had to go into the emulated Amiga. And I found that by binding the mouse pointer capture/release to the middle mouse button, having to switch to and from the emulator was pain-free.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on October 31, 2014, 04:50:43 PM
Quote from: Leffmann;776281
How come cross-developing is not an option then?.

In principle, yes, but how do I get the binaries then back to the Amiga for testing? This machine has no network card (I don't really plan to waste money on that) the CDRW died a couple of years ago, and the only removable medium is the floppy, which is too small for any serious application. The only chance is to use a PC and an emulator on the PC, though I then loose the workflow, i.e. the DevPac assembler and the SAS compiler interface. Both of which is pretty useful for library and systems development. In essence, it would require a completely different workflow. Possible, but inconvenient.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Minuous on October 31, 2014, 04:56:17 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776240
The German Amiga keyboard has *one* extra key compared to a standard German PC keyboard, and that key is essential.  The backslash on a standard PC-keyboard is reachable by AltGr+Sharp-S

That sounds like a painful way to type such a commonly used key. Anyway, modern PC keyboards have many more keys than Amiga keyboards, so it's just a matter of assigning it to one of the spare keys. Which could be done in the host OS, the guest OS, or the emulator.

Quote
No, it doesn't. F12+g does this, and no, the title bar does not say this. Once again, I have no Wind** here, and I don't consider bying one just for the purpose of Amiga emulation. And once again, there are established choices for this, and Ctrl+Tab is not one of them, but anyhow....

Sorry, I meant Alt+Tab. Windows programs can be run under UNIX via WINE, no need to buy/pirate Windows. WinUAE is far advanced compared to other variants.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on October 31, 2014, 05:34:01 PM
Quote from: Minuous;776288
Windows programs can be run under UNIX via WINE, no need to buy/pirate Windows. WinUAE is far advanced compared to other variants.

No thanks. If the author doesn't care about Linux, I don't care about the program. I do make exceptions for work and essential programs, but UAE is none of them.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Leffmann on October 31, 2014, 08:28:56 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776287
In principle, yes, but how do I get the binaries then back to the Amiga for testing? This machine has no network card (I don't really plan to waste money on that) the CDRW died a couple of years ago, and the only removable medium is the floppy, which is too small for any serious application. The only chance is to use a PC and an emulator on the PC, though I then loose the workflow, i.e. the DevPac assembler and the SAS compiler interface. Both of which is pretty useful for library and systems development. In essence, it would require a completely different workflow. Possible, but inconvenient.


Actually I meant to cross-develop on the host, to the emulated Amiga. You can run Genam, SAS/C and most other well-behaved command line tools on the PC-side using vamos, but I guess you mean that you require the full Devpac IDE, the SAS/C GUI for project control, CPR, and Cygnus Editor etc. to work.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: fishy_fiz on October 31, 2014, 09:00:53 PM
Seems pretty obvious by now that you're happy to dislike the software and that no solution will appease you. Not because there are no solutions, but because you've chosen to be discontent.
If you're happy with that then Im happy for you, but its a bit on the nose to discredit the quality of someones work because youre not interested in learning to use the software.

To each their own though. If this is what makes you happy then who am I to tell you otherwise?
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on October 31, 2014, 11:45:08 PM
Quote from: fishy_fiz;776310
Seems pretty obvious by now that you're happy to dislike the software and that no solution will appease you. Not because there are no solutions, but because you've chosen to be discontent.
If you're happy with that then Im happy for you, but its a bit on the nose to discredit the quality of someones work because youre not interested in learning to use the software.

To each their own though. If this is what makes you happy then who am I to tell you otherwise?

Because you're piling kludges on top of kludges, and I'm supposed to like that? Wine, because there's nothing on Linux to run it? Or build a keymap myself because the emulator fails emulating the keyboard in a useful way? Please, excuse me, but such solutions are not exactly "usable". They might be "ok" as last resort, but they are far from ideal.

Look, there are certain "minimum standards" I would recommend to follow. The minimum standard is that the keyboard works as expected (with the keys functioning as the labels on them say). The minimum standard should be that emulators tell me how to ungrab the mouse and how to give me control back, bare basics of user interface design. The minimum standard should also be that the file system emulation emulates the file system properly, yet links do not work correctly on xx-UAE (just another point on my list).

Nothing of that is impossible to reach, or in particular overly hard. I'm writing all this so it can hopefully be fixed. Somebody has to say. vmware on Linux pretty much works by the standards, to give one example. I would also say that my own emulator works by these minimum standards, though is probably less perfect than professional software, and it is admittedly a much simpler system that it emulates. The UAE variants I tested are not, sorry, and for the points I mentioned.

On cross compiling: I also did cross-compilation for the Atari 8-bits, using ca65, makefiles and emacs. Also works, and works better than on the original. But if I have to pile certain emulation layers on top of each other to compile a program for an old system, then that's not a workable solution. Alternativiely, using non-native tools: creating Amiga system libraries also requires a bit more than your "average" C compiler (gcc, for example) is able to offer, it requires some highly specialized tools. It's a tad more complex than writing your average C program.

It is understandable that the community is so small that nobody is willing to put much effort into providing the tools or the emulators, but that doesn't make the situation better, or the "workarounds" you're offering any better. Just because we're all only working on a hobby basis doesn't make the result any better on an absolute scale.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: buzz on November 01, 2014, 12:57:19 AM
doesn't sound like you want any functionality changed / fixed. Sounds like you just want to have a moan. If you want any behaviour/functionality changed, or to get help, you might do better to post on the support forum for fs-uae etc.

considering the massive rant you had about someone else not feeding back bug reports to you, it seems slightly hypocritical!
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: buzz on November 01, 2014, 01:11:21 AM
and to answer some of your questions (in case any have not been answered) - you can probably sort the keyboard mapping out with custom input mapping - http://fs-uae.net/input-mapping - there is a full list of actions. looks pretty simple to me.

all the keyboard shortcuts are listed in the documentation also

http://fs-uae.net/keyboard-shortcuts

not too hard to find out how to release/capture mouse. (F12 + G – Release/capture mouse and keyboard input grab. Clicking the middle moue button will also release input grab.)

with something with as many options as uae, it does make sense that you spend at least 5 mins reading the docs. I'm sure if I emailed you regarding something on vinced and I hadn't read the manual (and it was obviously in there) you would tell me to RTFM!
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: psxphill on November 01, 2014, 08:45:25 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776330
Nothing of that is impossible to reach, or in particular overly hard. I'm writing all this so it can hopefully be fixed. Somebody has to say. vmware on Linux pretty much works by the standards, to give one example. I would also say that my own emulator works by these minimum standards, though is probably less perfect than professional software, and it is admittedly a much simpler system that it emulates. The UAE variants I tested are not, sorry, and for the points I mentioned.

I suggest you ask for a refund on UAE if it doesn't meet your standards.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Georg on November 01, 2014, 09:22:52 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776330
Or build a keymap myself because the emulator fails emulating the keyboard in a useful way?


So you want UAE to be full of (pseudo)code like this:

Code: [Select]

if (host_vanilla_key_pressed == '\\')
{
  if (host_keymap == german)
  {
      generate_amiga_rawkey(ALT_RELEASE); /* because user pressed ALTGR + ß */
      generate_amiga_rawkey(RAWKEY_BACKSPACE_PRESSED);
      generate_amiga_rawkey(ALT_PRESSED);
  }
}

if (host_vanilla_key_released == '\\')
{
   if (host_keymap == german)
   {
      if (alt_pressed) generate_amiga_rawkey(ALT_RELEASE);
      generate_amiga_rawkey(RAWKEY_BACKSPACE_RELEASED);
      if (alt_pressed) generate_amiga_rawkey(ALT_PRESSED);
   }
}


This is ugly as hell and wrong too, because now the emulated Amiga sees key presses/releases which never happened (ALT key).

Apart from building/modifying a keymap you could also just use FKey commodity to make it insert the backspace key event when alt + ß is pressed.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: psxphill on November 01, 2014, 09:59:17 AM
Quote from: Georg;776366
Apart from building/modifying a keymap you could also just use FKey commodity to make it insert the backspace key event when alt + ß is pressed.

Yeah, the sane way to do this is map keys 1:1 as best as you can and for any that require more than one key press just modify the keymap.
 
 You can then make it so that pressing the keys in amigaos will have the same result as pressing them in your host os.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 01, 2014, 10:07:41 AM
Quote from: buzz;776337
doesn't sound like you want any functionality changed / fixed. Sounds like you just want to have a moan.

You got that wrong. But no, I don't have the time to work on it, I've more than enough projects on my todo list, thanks.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 01, 2014, 10:15:20 AM
Quote from: psxphill;776369
Yeah, the sane way to do this is map keys 1:1 as best as you can and for any that require more than one key press just modify the keymap.
 
 You can then make it so that pressing the keys in amigaos will have the same result as pressing them in your host os.

It's a bad option, and I already showed why it is bad. Do I really need to repeat this? If users have to modify the keymap just to be able to use the emulator is not the right approach. I believe I already suggested what the right approach should be: Non-alphanumierc keys must be mapped by function, not by position.

Caps Lock/Ctrl is an example where xx-UAE does not follow what you suggest: The Ctrl-Key is in the lower left on a PC keyboard, and changed its position with the caps-lock key compared to the Amiga layout. Yet, UAE uses the PC layout here, not the Amiga layout. If, apparently, that's possible for ctrl and caps-lock, why isn't it possible for the backslash key to map it to its position on the PC keyboard? That's not consistent. Even worse, if I remap my PC keyboard (which I regularly do) with Ctrl+Caps interchanged, then xxx-UAE is unaware of this change, and breaks caps-lock completely.  

One way or another: The suggestion you made is not the design the UAE authors picked, and neither the one that is currently implemented, nor the one you make is doable. It either misses keys, or breaks if the keyboard mapping is changed.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 01, 2014, 10:21:46 AM
Quote from: Georg;776366
This is ugly as hell and wrong too, because now the emulated Amiga sees key presses/releases which never happened (ALT key).

Apart from building/modifying a keymap you could also just use FKey commodity to make it insert the backspace key event when alt + ß is pressed.

Because you only have an ugly code does not make the decision ugly. Yes, your design is wrong, that's why it is so ugly. Getting it right is quite simple: a) Read the keycode from X11, b) translate the key-code into ASCII (X11 has functions for that, yes) c) translate this ASCII code into the press for the key that translates to this ASCII on the corresponding Amiga keyboard. Been there, done that.

You don't need special cases, it is one generic function. You only need to tell the user to pick the type of keyboard to be emulated, i.e. xxx-UAE needs to know where the keys are on the Amiga keyboard. There is nothing particularly ugly about this solution. Yes, it is more complicated than the current solution, but yes, it will work correctly also for non-US layouts.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Georg on November 01, 2014, 01:38:33 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776374
a) Read the keycode from X11, b) translate the key-code into ASCII (X11 has functions for that, yes) c) translate this ASCII code into the press for the key that translates to this ASCII on the corresponding Amiga keyboard.


That's broken, too. Rawkey code of one and same physical key can then differ, depending on whether a key like ALT is currently pressed down, or not. Think of a game which allows you to redefine action keys. It will most likely store the configured key using the rawkey code. This will not work with your approach on a German keyboard for the "ß ? \" key. During gameplay different rawkey code event received depending on whether ALT (maybe used for strafing) is held down, or not.

And what about runtime switching of the keymap in AmigaOS. My A500 had American keyboard layout, my A1200 Italian keyboard layout. I often used it with American keyboard layout as I was used to that from A500. But I also switched to German or Italian layout, depending on what I was doing.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 01, 2014, 02:05:37 PM
Quote from: Georg;776378
That's broken, too. Rawkey code of one and same physical key can then differ, depending on whether a key like ALT is currently pressed down, or not.  
Certainly, and intentionally.  
Quote from: Georg;776378
Think of a game which allows you to redefine action keys. It will most likely store the configured key using the rawkey code. This will not work with your approach on a German keyboard for the "ß ? \" key.
Gaming is a different use case than programming. I believe I already said that I apprecate that UAE is probably a good deal for such uses, but it is not for mine. For gaming, you would typically use keys and functions that are available on all keyboards in the same position - otherwise you're creating trouble anyhow.  
Quote from: Georg;776378
And what about runtime switching of the keymap in AmigaOS. My A500 had American keyboard layout, my A1200 Italian keyboard layout. I often used it with American keyboard layout as I was used to that from A500. But I also switched to German or Italian layout, depending on what I was doing.

In such a case, you would have to switch the layout in two positions. In the emulator, and in the emulated Os. Or need to enable the emulator to read which keyboard is currently active, which is harder as it requires some insight into the console definition. In either case, that's all certainly possible, but what is not possible is that a certain key is simply not available in first place. The simple and obvious use should be the default - there's no problem for requiring more work for enhanced configuration. I simply expect that if I turn the system on, it gives me a usable keyboard configuration - yet it does not.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: buzz on November 01, 2014, 02:46:10 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776370
You got that wrong. But no, I don't have the time to work on it, I've more than enough projects on my todo list, thanks.


you seem to have enough time to go on and on about it here, and yet I see nothing from you on the github issue tracker or support forum.

sorry, what is so complicated about using the keyboard input mapping stuff I linked earlier - have you even tried that? Or you prefer to just continue moaning here ? :)
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Minuous on November 01, 2014, 05:54:07 PM
>Wine, because there's nothing on Linux to run it?

I should have known not to recommend Wine, I get the impression that (a) you are strongly anti-emulation for no apparent reason and (b) completely partisan in terms of Linux vs. other OSes. If a decent version of UAE isn't available natively for Linux, perhaps someone from the Linux community should do something about that. It's open source after all.

>Or build a keymap myself because the emulator fails emulating the keyboard in a useful way? Please, excuse me, but such solutions are not exactly "usable". They might be "ok" as last resort, but they are far from ideal.

>Look, there are certain "minimum standards" I would recommend to follow. The minimum standard is that the keyboard works as expected (with the keys functioning as the labels on them say).

It does. Press the backslash key, you get a backslash. If you want Alt-ß to produce a backslash, you can set up a keymap, but to my knowledge that isn't a standard Amiga shortcut and never has been. It sounds like you want to clog UAE and/or AmigaOS up with quasi-standards from foreign platforms. You can't blame AmigaOS for expecting an Amiga keyboard to be present. Or UAE for assuming by default that you have a backslash key. I didn't even realize it until you pointed it out that there are defective keyboards available that are missing this key. I don't complain that there is no ß key on my keyboard.

>But if I have to pile certain emulation layers on top of each other to compile a program for an old system, then that's not a workable solution.

You don't have to. There's no need to cross compile, all development can be (and is, in my case) done under the guest OS.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 01, 2014, 07:16:35 PM
Quote from: Minuous;776403
>Wine, because there's nothing on Linux to run it?

I should have known not to recommend Wine, I get the impression that (a) you are strongly anti-emulation for no apparent reason
No, I'm anti "non-working solutions". MS-Word under wine works perfectly. AmigaOs under UAE does not. Big difference.  
Quote from: Minuous;776403
 completely partisan in terms of Linux vs. other OSes.  
Neither. But why should I run an emulator in an emulator? If linux wasn't important enough for the original author, why should this program be important enough for me? It's acceptable if I need something for work, and word is something I need for work, but UAE isn't work. It's at best a hobby.  
Quote from: Minuous;776403
If a decent version of UAE isn't available natively for Linux, perhaps someone from the Linux community should do something about that. It's open source after all.
Perhaps. As said, I've enough projects of my own (including my own emulator), so please count me out. But objectively, this doesn't make things any more workable for me.    
Quote from: Minuous;776403
It does. Press the backslash key, you get a backslash.  
Very funny. There is no backslash key on a german keyboard. I believe I said this multiple times. It is at Alt-ß, and only there. These are elementary problems an emulator should be able to take care of, but apparently not.

You can offer me workarounds, but these are workarounds and no solutions. I wanted to give reasons why it the emulation doesn't work for me, and that's exactly why it doesn't, and the most important reason. If I first have to sit down and implement some work-around, or need to change my typing style because apparently the authors are unaware or unwilling to emulate a standard keyboard, then this makes things for me unusable. You may not like it, but that's what it is.  
Quote from: Minuous;776403
If you want Alt-ß to produce a backslash, you can set up a keymap, but to my knowledge that isn't a standard Amiga shortcut and never has been.  
But it is a standard PC "shortcut", and thus, by all basics, it should work. There's nothing exotic or unusual about this.  
Quote from: Minuous;776403
It sounds like you want to clog UAE and/or AmigaOS up with quasi-standards from foreign platforms.
The German keyboard is an ISO-standard, not a quasi-standard, and if I run an emulator on a PC, it should understand the standard PC keyboard I'm typing on. That's elementary and not asking for "too much".    
Quote from: Minuous;776403
 You can't blame AmigaOS for expecting an Amiga keyboard to be present. Or UAE for assuming by default that you have a backslash key. I didn't even realize it until you pointed it out that there are defective keyboards available that are missing this key. I don't complain that there is no ß key on my keyboard.
I neither blame you nor the PC for not having this key. I'm blaming emulator authors for producing half-baked solutions that are non-workable. Mapping the keyboard in a correct way is a problem every emulation has to take care of, and it is not exactly a trivial problem, but neither rocket science. And the rule should be that every key you have on the emulated platform must be reachable from the emulator. The request I have is *really that simple*.  
Quote from: Minuous;776403
You don't have to. There's no need to cross compile, all development can be (and is, in my case) done under the guest OS.

Sigh. How do I compile a library then? SAS/C is not available under Linux. In other words, it requires quite an amount of porting the sources to make this happen. Maybe you have the time to do that, but I don't. I just want to compile and bugfix what I have, and do not have enough spare time to invest to port from one tool chain to a completely different tool chain.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Minuous on November 01, 2014, 11:59:53 PM
>No, I'm anti "non-working solutions". MS-Word under wine works perfectly. AmigaOs under UAE does not. Big difference.

I don't use Linux, so can't say from personal experience, but WinUAE under WINE seems to work fine for most people. (Eg. see http://www.pcguru.plus.com/uae_wine.html and http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=48622 ).

>But why should I run an emulator in an emulator?

Wine Is Not an Emulator, it just translates API calls. So there's no double-layer emulation to degrade performance. In fact as the second link I gave above points out, this is the fastest way.

>If linux wasn't important enough for the original author, why should this program be important enough for me?

Because it has more features and speed than the other versions of UAE. I agree, it would be nice if he supported more platforms (I was disappointed when Win98 support was dropped prematurely)...But no need to punish yourself by avoiding it just because of that.

>Very funny. There is no backslash key on a german keyboard. I believe I said this multiple times.

What I was replying to was your statement "The minimum standard is that the keyboard works as expected (with the keys functioning as the labels on them say).", and I simply pointed out that it does so.

>You can offer me workarounds, but these are workarounds and no solutions.

Your proposed solution IIRC was something along the lines of translating a host scancode into ASCII via the host OS, then translating that ASCII value into a guest scancode. Which would cause all kinds of issues and is about the least clean solution I can imagine.

>standard PC "shortcut", and thus, by all basics, it should work. There's nothing exotic or unusual about this.    The German keyboard is an ISO-standard, not a quasi-standard, and if I run an emulator on a PC, it should understand the standard PC keyboard I'm typing on.

No, it shouldn't. Eg. with Caps Lock on, typing Shift-A on a PC gives lowercase a (on DOS and Windows at least, not sure about Linux), whereas on an Amiga it gives uppercase A. The correct behaviour when you type this into an Amiga emulator would be to handle it like an Amiga does. There are a whole list of standard PC shortcuts, none of them get translated by any Amiga emulator. Eg. Alt-numpad to emit a specific ASCII character, Ctrl-X to cut, Alt-F,X for quit, etc.
  Surely it's best to be handled at the scancode level, not the ASCII value level...Not all keys even have ASCII values, the same ASCII value can be generated by different keys, etc. Injecting fake keystrokes or suppressing real ones is going to play havoc with Amiga software that isn't expecting this. Also, it's probably not a good idea to make the emulator send different scancodes just because of host locale settings.
  Also, whether or not ISO has endorsed it, it's not a platform-neutral or even OS-neutral standard, as there are Windows keys on it...

>And the rule should be that every key you have on the emulated platform must be reachable from the emulator. The request I have is *really that simple*.

Well, IIRC there's no way to type the two "international keys" (as present on some Amiga keyboards) on a standard PC keyboard, as they aren't present. (So probably every Amiga emulator fails this test.) Some kind of remapping is thus needed in any event; it shouldn't be too hard to assign a key for Backslash at the same time.

>Sigh. How do I compile a library then? SAS/C is not available under Linux. In other words, it requires quite an amount of porting the sources to make this happen. Maybe you have the time to do that, but I don't. I just want to compile and bugfix what I have, and do not have enough spare time to invest to port from one tool chain to a completely different tool chain.

It seems I have been misunderstood, sorry if my original answer was not clear. One runs the compiler, SAS/C in this case, from within the emulator. (AFAIK SAS/C is still closed source so it wouldn't be feasible to port it to another platform anyway.) Text editing of the source code can be done from the host or the guest, it doesn't make much difference.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 02, 2014, 01:08:00 AM
Quote from: Minuous;776441
I don't use Linux, so can't say from personal experience, but WinUAE under WINE seems to work fine for most people.
Then maybe that's fine for most people. It's not fine for me. It's a workaround, not a solution.  
Quote from: Minuous;776441
Wine Is Not an Emulator, it just translates API calls.  
You're not telling me anything new. It's still the wrong solution for the problem, it's an emulation of Windows API on Linux. What for? Write portable programs in first place. My stuff runs on Windows, Linux, AIX, IRIX, Solaris and probably a couple of other Os'es. Too lazy?  
Quote from: Minuous;776441
Because it has more features and speed than the other versions of UAE.
Good for you. Doesn't really help. Anyhow, this is a different discussion.  
Quote from: Minuous;776441
I agree, it would be nice if he supported more platforms (I was disappointed when Win98 support was dropped prematurely)...But no need to punish yourself by avoiding it just because of that.
It's not a matter of "punishment". It is a matter of "why emulation doesn't work for me", which is what the whole thread is about. There's no usable emulator for my platform and my application, that's what I'm claiming, no more no less. I'm not claiming "emulation doesn't work for anyone". It's probably perfectly fine for your use-case, and probably for many others. It isn't for mine. No, you won't convince me to use wine just for that purpose. It's conceptionally the wrong approach to the problem. The right approach is "write portable software".  
Quote from: Minuous;776441
Your proposed solution IIRC was something along the lines of translating a host scancode into ASCII via the host OS, then translating that ASCII value into a guest scancode. Which would cause all kinds of issues and is about the least clean solution I can imagine.
Once again, should I say again that I did this already? It's not really that much of a problem, and *no*, I'm not saying that you should read "scan codes", nor did I say "ASCII codes". This is not how keyboard input works. The Os'es I work on (and that includes windows, yes) give you enough abstraction information to note "hey, this key has the function of caps lock", and "hey, with the current keymap, this key has a function of Z". It doesn't give you an ASCII code for that matter. So please, try to get a bit more insight into the matter, would you? It is usually a multi-step translation process, from scan-code, to function, to ASCII. There is enough information on the whole line to get enough data to perform a reasonable information.  
Quote from: Minuous;776441
No, it shouldn't. Eg. with Caps Lock on, typing Shift-A on a PC gives lowercase a (on DOS and Windows at least, not sure about Linux), whereas on an Amiga it gives uppercase A. The correct behaviour when you type this into an Amiga emulator would be to handle it like an Amiga does.  
This is not how it works. Again, you're reading something into my words I haven't said. Could you please try to read a little bit about the matter before you argue? For example, get the SDL documentation for starters - that's a nice portable multimedia abstraction library that is very workable. Caps Lock is a function key, that function needs to be mapped. "\" is a text key, here the contents (the text) need to be mapped, not the function. The Os interfaces provide the information to distinguish between the cases.  

In fact, even *that* is wrong on xx-UAE: It places the CAPS LOCK function where it expects the key (by scan code) instead of using the lower-level Os abstraction to map the Caps-lock key where it was mapped by the user. I have caps lock and ctrl interchanged, the change is communicated to programs by providing keyboard functions (not ASCII codes) to the program, yet xxx-UAE tries to map by scan-code. That's the wrong approach. As said, there are multiple levels of keyboard translation you need to take into acount. No, it's not trivial, but again, it's not rocket science either. You just have to do your homework correctly.  
Quote from: Minuous;776441
There are a whole list of standard PC shortcuts, none of them get translated by any Amiga emulator. Eg. Alt-numpad to emit a specific ASCII character, Ctrl-X to cut, Alt-F,X for quit, etc.
Nope, again, that's not how the input layer works.  
Quote from: Minuous;776441
  Surely it's best to be handled at the scancode level, not the ASCII value level...
No, the level a key has to be handled depends on the key, and there's more than ASCII and scancode, really. Scancode is completely wrong, because the user can re-assign keys, and the scan code doesn't get that. ASCII is wrong because some keys do not even generate ASCII.  You need a multi-level translation: 1) Get the key function from the Os (not the scan code!). 2) Check whether that function maps to a printable "non-dead" key. 3) If not so, map to the corresponding function key on the host keyboard. For the Amiga, there is no multi-level translation, so just map it to the scancode. 4) If so, get the Amiga keyboard (by GUI configuration, or by a smarter way from AmigaOs through an emulation layer). From there, find the scancode for the key. Send one or multiple scan codes to emulate that key (or keys) to generate the same effect.

This algorithm works, and yes, I had this implemented, though not for xxx-UAE purposes. So please, don't tell me that I've done again the impossible.

It requires a bit work, some inspiration, and the motivation to create a truly working product that is satisfactory. If xxx-UAE doesn't offer that level of functionality, then it might be that the authors didn't know or didn't care, probably because the code was designed for a different purpose. Once again, I do not claim that this is bad or unsatisfactory for anyome. I'm only claiming "it's not good enough for me", maybe because I know what I want and need, and I would even know how to do. Note again that this is something different.  
Quote from: Minuous;776441
  Also, whether or not ISO has endorsed it, it's not a platform-neutral or even OS-neutral standard, as there are Windows keys on it...
I don't think that ISO has anything to say about extra keys with a logo on it, nor about the logo. The keys are usually called "Left Meta" and "Right Meta", and that people put M$ branding on it is just the success of M$ for it.    
Quote from: Minuous;776441
Well, IIRC there's no way to type the two "international keys" (as present on some Amiga keyboards) on a standard PC keyboard, as they aren't present. (So probably every Amiga emulator fails this test.) Some kind of remapping is thus needed in any event;
"Reasonable remapping" is exactly the purpose of the emulator. It also "maps" the Amiga graphics to the PC graphics, the Amiga CPU to the PC CPU and the Amiga sound to the PC sound. What's so special about keys that you believe that this should not be done? Even if I tell you that it *can* be done?

Look, the simple algorithms currently used for keyboard remapping are probably too simple minded to do their job correctly, so emulation is not satisfactory *for me*.

Quote from: Minuous;776441
It seems I have been misunderstood, sorry if my original answer was not clear. One runs the compiler, SAS/C in this case, from within the emulator. (AFAIK SAS/C is still closed source so it wouldn't be feasible to port it to another platform anyway.) Text editing of the source code can be done from the host or the guest, it doesn't make much difference.

More workarounds, then? Ok, let me see, how do I get it into the Amiga... Emulated network card, with emulated ssh connection, probably cvs on the Amiga side... Ok, probably workable, but again, that's probably too much work that could be invested in a better way by fixing up the stupid emulation. It's really not rocket science, it's elementary GUI design. It's the 101 of "making the easy things easy", and "having to create a custom keymap in the host and/or the emulated machine" is not easy, not for the average user.  

The list isn't that long. 1) Fix the keyboard, 2) Fix the mouse grab (display a message, use an accepted key) 3) Offer a complete GUI for the configuration options. 4) Fix up the file system emulation and make that complete.  

Not much can be done about the emulation speed, that's underdstood. Maybe, if I may make a wish, get the JIT working on AMD64 instead of just i386. 64bit is not exactly a new technology these days. Yes, I can run i386 code on AMD64, don't tell me, I know that. No, it still isn't a good solution. Write portable programs is the solution. Or as portable as you possibly could.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: kolla on November 02, 2014, 03:28:22 AM
Thank you Thomas, for this thread, you have exposed your ignorance and stuck in the backwaters knowledge about computer systems to the point of being hilarious. Which is what I suspected at last rendevouz.

If you lack your beloved backslash on a PC keyboard in general, how do you program for other systems "professionally" using the exact same keyboard?

And for the record - I use Norwegian layout, not as messed up as the German layout, but with the same limitations when it comes to that key. And you are too lazy to get network to that box? Seriously?
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Georg on November 02, 2014, 07:44:06 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776447

More workarounds, then? Ok, let me see, how do I get it into the Amiga... Emulated network card, with emulated ssh connection, probably cvs on the Amiga side...


??? As said you can mount Linux directories in UAE as AmigaOS volume. Edit a text file with Linux text editor and when saved to Linux directory it is immediately available in AmigaOS under UAE.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 02, 2014, 12:55:10 PM
Quote from: Georg;776469
??? As said you can mount Linux directories in UAE as AmigaOS volume. Edit a text file with Linux text editor and when saved to Linux directory it is immediately available in AmigaOS under UAE.

Would be a nice solution if I could trust the file system emulation of xxx-UAE, which I don't. Whenever I run a check-out in the emulated system, I get an "object is not of required type" error in the shell. It's probably some type of hickup with links, I don't know. Needless to say, I don't get that in the real system, so something is wrong there, too. See also point 3) in my list above. It neither makes emulation a suitable replacement for the full original hardware.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Terminills on November 02, 2014, 01:34:43 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776414
No, I'm anti "non-working solutions". MS-Word under wine works perfectly. AmigaOs under UAE does not. Big difference.   Neither. But why should I run an emulator in an emulator? If linux wasn't important enough for the original author, why should this program be important enough for me? It's acceptable if I need something for work, and word is something I need for work, but UAE isn't work. It's at best a hobby.    Perhaps. As said, I've enough projects of my own (including my own emulator), so please count me out. But objectively, this doesn't make things any more workable for me.     Very funny. There is no backslash key on a german keyboard. I believe I said this multiple times. It is at Alt-ß, and only there. These are elementary problems an emulator should be able to take care of, but apparently not.

You can offer me workarounds, but these are workarounds and no solutions. I wanted to give reasons why it the emulation doesn't work for me, and that's exactly why it doesn't, and the most important reason. If I first have to sit down and implement some work-around, or need to change my typing style because apparently the authors are unaware or unwilling to emulate a standard keyboard, then this makes things for me unusable. You may not like it, but that's what it is.   But it is a standard PC "shortcut", and thus, by all basics, it should work. There's nothing exotic or unusual about this.    The German keyboard is an ISO-standard, not a quasi-standard, and if I run an emulator on a PC, it should understand the standard PC keyboard I'm typing on. That's elementary and not asking for "too much".      I neither blame you nor the PC for not having this key. I'm blaming emulator authors for producing half-baked solutions that are non-workable. Mapping the keyboard in a correct way is a problem every emulation has to take care of, and it is not exactly a trivial problem, but neither rocket science. And the rule should be that every key you have on the emulated platform must be reachable from the emulator. The request I have is *really that simple*.  

Sigh. How do I compile a library then? SAS/C is not available under Linux. In other words, it requires quite an amount of porting the sources to make this happen. Maybe you have the time to do that, but I don't. I just want to compile and bugfix what I have, and do not have enough spare time to invest to port from one tool chain to a completely different tool chain.


Not sure if it's been mentioned but the missing key is mapped to the insert key.



http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=939981&postcount=2
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: cgutjahr on November 02, 2014, 02:14:35 PM
Guys, he doesn't want help, you're making this thread worse by offering suggestions (and it's painful enough to watch as it is).

He just needs venting, because all the other programmers suck so badly.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Leffmann on November 02, 2014, 02:40:35 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776414
Sigh. How do I compile a library then? SAS/C is not available under Linux. In other words, it requires quite an amount of porting the sources to make this happen. Maybe you have the time to do that, but I don't. I just want to compile and bugfix what I have, and do not have enough spare time to invest to port from one tool chain to a completely different tool chain.


It doesn't require any porting or significant amounts of work at all. You just use Vamos to run the Amiga command line tools directly in Linux. You can't really throw your hands in the air until you've actually tried it.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 02, 2014, 02:58:54 PM
Quote from: cgutjahr;776500
Guys, he doesn't want help, you're making this thread worse by offering suggestions (and it's painful enough to watch as it is).

He just needs venting, because all the other programmers suck so badly.

No, you really don't get the point. It's not about "how everybody else sucks", or "what can I do to convince him to make the emulator working". It is "why I don't like emulation". That's on the top of the post, and that's what it is all about. There are multiple reasons for that, some of them lie in the responsibility of the corresponding authors (bad user interface concepts, lack of testing) others in the principle of the problem (lack of performance due to software emulation), others in the authors addressing an audience I don't belong to (games, rather than developers).  

You try to trivialize the problem, make me sound like a moron, whereas I'm trying to show what is actually wrong with the emulation applications we have. They are not good enough to replace the hardware, and for more than a single reason. Look at professional solutions - VMWare for example. This is of course professional software, it's arguably not exactly the same (common CPU), yet, apparently, it offers solutions to the problems I'm addressing.

Look at my "shopping list". 1) Fix the keyboard, 2) fix the mouse grab, 3) fix the configuration, 4) fix the file system emulation.

A little more care and better testing would have helped here.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 02, 2014, 03:21:52 PM
Quote from: Terminills;776495
Not sure if it's been mentioned but the missing key is mapped to the insert key.

Ah, thank you. I did not know this, this would at least make the console and the editor half-way usable, or at least usable at all. It's still not ideal since it does not follow the conventions of the german PC keyboard  and makes editing uselessly hard. It's again a matter of use-cases: For the casual user or the gamer, this is surely not a barrier. How often would you need the key in first place? For a developer, oh well...
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: cgutjahr on November 02, 2014, 03:22:41 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776505
No, you really don't get the point. It's not about "how everybody else sucks", or "what can I do to convince him to make the emulator working".

Honestly, I stopped reading when you announced you'd never use UAE under WINE, because you don't support people who don't support Linux - just two mention in the next posting, that MS-Word "works perfectly under WINE".

Btw., just noticed you got a bug report here:

http://www.amiga-news.de/de/news/comments/thread/AN-2014-10-00011-DE.html
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 02, 2014, 03:29:47 PM
Quote from: Leffmann;776502
It doesn't require any porting or significant amounts of work at all. You just use Vamos to run the Amiga command line tools directly in Linux. You can't really throw your hands in the air until you've actually tried it.

Where can I find "vamos"? I do not know this program, so I cannot comment. A *ix comand line tool for compiling would actually help for my use case.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: OlafS3 on November 02, 2014, 03:41:41 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776509
Where can I find "vamos"? I do not know this program, so I cannot comment. A *ix comand line tool for compiling would actually help for my use case.


On Aros Vision (FS-UAE or WinUAE / Windows) I get the key by Alt-ß (not Alt Gr)
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Terminills on November 02, 2014, 03:54:18 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776507
Ah, thank you. I did not know this, this would at least make the console and the editor half-way usable, or at least usable at all. It's still not ideal since it does not follow the conventions of the german PC keyboard  and makes editing uselessly hard. It's again a matter of use-cases: For the casual user or the gamer, this is surely not a barrier. How often would you need the key in first place? For a developer, oh well...



If you read the whole thread last post tells you how to move extra key position.  It's a config setting.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 02, 2014, 03:56:55 PM
Quote from: cgutjahr;776508
Honestly, I stopped reading when you announced you'd never use UAE under WINE, because you don't support people who don't support Linux - just two mention in the next posting, that MS-Word "works perfectly under WINE.

There is "professional work" and there is "hobby". If I'm paid for, I have no problem using windows, that's what the money is good for, and if part of that money goes to Redmont, then let it be - somebody else already paid.

However, if I can choose how to waste my time for free, you'd better get me a system I prefer to use. For my own documents, I'd prefer LaTeX (but for more than just "free software". Formula editing in word is really usunable, but that's again a different story).
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: koaftder on November 02, 2014, 04:13:29 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776514
There is "professional work" and there is "hobby".


Not this crap again. You're beating a dead horse with this. This is not a serious pants software development forum.

Nobody cares about what methodology you'd use if you were getting paid to do blah because that's boring, not to mention pointless to a crowd of users and hobby hackers.

Don't get me wrong though, you make excellent points and while I agree with perhaps 95% of what you say, I still cringe when I read your posts.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 02, 2014, 04:45:39 PM
Quote from: koaftder;776516
Not this crap again. You're beating a dead horse with this. This is not a serious pants software development forum.

Of course it isn't. So please don't try to convince me to use windows for this.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: koaftder on November 02, 2014, 05:01:59 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776521
Of course it isn't. So please don't try to convince me to use windows for this.


I certainly wouldn't. What I don't get is why you'd spend time lecturing people here how things ought to be when the sources are available for you to do what you wish with them.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 02, 2014, 06:43:27 PM
Quote from: koaftder;776523
I certainly wouldn't. What I don't get is why you'd spend time lecturing people here how things ought to be when the sources are available for you to do what you wish with them.

The thread was "what I don't like about emulators", not "what can I do to fix to make emulators working", note the subtile difference. It was considered a general answer to all those that recommended or asked me "why don't you use an emulator", and that's the answer. You may not like the answer, but that is it.

But sorry, no, I'm too occupied with more important errants than to fix Amiga emulators. I've more than enough to do to fix my own stuff, and no, I'm not talking about Amiga in specific. In a sense, I don't understand your approach: Just because I'm releasing some software for free does not mean that my time has no value. If you want to see how I approached the keyboard mapping problem when I had it, I already provided hints I believe (and yes, you can download sources).
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Terminills on November 02, 2014, 07:48:01 PM
Quote from: Terminills;776512
If you read the whole thread last post tells you how to move extra key position.  It's a config setting.


Here's the config for swapping with the equals

Code:
keyboard_key_equals = action_key_backslash
keyboard_key_insert = action_key_equals
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Minuous on November 02, 2014, 11:08:03 PM
>It's still the wrong solution for the problem, it's an emulation of Windows API on Linux. What for? Write portable programs in first place.

So, by logical extension, every program ever written should be ported to every platform, so we wouldn't need emulators? That's not an efficient solution to the problem of cross-platform compatibility. Toni Wilen is busy improving WinUAE. It already has a proper Windows GUI. Making a proper Linux GUI for it would be a lot of work. Or the alternative, replacing it with an SDL GUI, would be not only a lot of work but also a downgrade. I'd rather he continued to improve the emulation.

>My stuff runs on Windows, Linux, AIX, IRIX, Solaris and probably a couple of other Os'es. Too lazy?

It's not that portable if it doesn't run on the Amiga, of course. Too lazy? ;-)

>There's no usable emulator for my platform and my application, that's what I'm claiming, no more no less.

Seems a rather pointless thread: I don't think there are many Linux programmers here that will write a new Amiga emulator for you. (You might have luck filing a bug report though with the coders of existing Linux UAE versions.) FS-UAE has some issues that mean you aren't going to use it, I think everyone understands already. Either that or it's just another anti-emulation rant. I don't get the hate that emulation gets, no one starts topics like "I hate word processors"... I also don't understand why you would write/port one if you hate them.

>For example, get the SDL documentation for starters - that's a nice portable multimedia abstraction library that is very workable.

SDL is awful, it's just a common-denominator approach that totally ignores the conventions of the host OS. Properly ported software should be properly adapted to eg. the prevailing GUI look and feel of what it's running on. For an example, compare my AmiArcadia and WinArcadia emulators.

>No, the level a key has to be handled depends on the key..."Reasonable remapping" is exactly the purpose of the emulator.

There's various philosophies about how to do remapping, eg. some emus have an option for positional mapping vs. keyname mapping. Neither is unreasonable, as they each have pros and cons depending on what guest program you are running. Hence why it is often provided as a user preference.

>(and yes, you can download sources).

Is http://www.thomas-richter.de your site?
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 03, 2014, 07:23:47 AM
Quote from: Minuous;776554
So, by logical extension, every program ever written should be ported to every platform, so we wouldn't need emulators?  
Ideally, yes.
Quote from: Minuous;776554
Making a proper Linux GUI for it would be a lot of work.  
No, it wouldn't if a proper GUI had been used. There are many portable solutions out there. Qt comes to my mind, gtk comes to my mind...
Quote from: Minuous;776554
It's not that portable if it doesn't run on the Amiga, of course. Too lazy?
No, not really. Lack of demand due to lack of computing performance. It should be compilable right away with the g++ compiler. SAS/C is too old for that.
Quote from: Minuous;776554
Seems a rather pointless thread: I don't think there are many Linux programmers here that will write a new Amiga emulator for you.
Thus, "I cannot use an emulator". That's what I said in first place. It's not a matter of hating or not. It is a matter of "works for me or not". That's a difference, and I believe I pointed this out many times.
Quote from: Minuous;776554
SDL is awful, it's just a common-denominator approach that totally ignores the conventions of the host OS.
This is exactly the great part about it. You get a pretty portable access to low-level features of the Os without all the hassle.
Quote from: Minuous;776554
Is http://www.thomas-richter.de your site?

No.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Georg on November 03, 2014, 07:33:02 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776447
No, the level a key has to be handled depends on the key, and there's more than ASCII and scancode, really. Scancode is completely wrong, because the user can re-assign keys, and the scan code doesn't get that. ASCII is wrong because some keys do not even generate ASCII.  You need a multi-level translation: 1) Get the key function from the Os (not the scan code!). 2) Check whether that function maps to a printable "non-dead" key. 3) If not so, map to the corresponding function key on the host keyboard. For the Amiga, there is no multi-level translation, so just map it to the scancode. 4) If so, get the Amiga keyboard (by GUI configuration, or by a smarter way from AmigaOs through an emulation layer). From there, find the scancode for the key. Send one or multiple scan codes to emulate that key (or keys) to generate the same effect.

This algorithm works, and yes, I had this implemented, though not for xxx-UAE purposes.


No, there are other problems with this algorithm, too. Keyboard is used for more things than just typing text. For example think about keyboard shortcuts in a paint/music/cad/3d program. Or about commodity hotkeys. For these it is irrelevant what ASCII the key would produce when used in a text typing program/editor.

A shortcut like "CTRL ALT Q" should always remain on the Q key, even if on the host this sequence would produce the "@" key which on the Amiga keyboard may not be on the Q keq but somewhere else.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: psxphill on November 03, 2014, 10:05:16 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776576
Thus, "I cannot use an emulator". That's what I said in first place. It's not a matter of hating or not. It is a matter of "works for me or not". That's a difference, and I believe I pointed this out many times.

You cannot use an emulator because you've got perceived problems that you hate the only sane solution to. You can whinge about the solution not being clear to you, but nobody cares as it will work for you if you could get over yourself.

There are problems with emulators that have less than ideal solutions and some problems are unsolvable, nobody cares if you complain about those either.
 
 Sure it would be nice if the 68040 mmu worked, but most people get by without having it enabled. Complaining about it here is not going to make a bit of difference.
 
 Your lists of solutions isn't going to inspire anybody, it just makes you look bad.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 03, 2014, 04:05:02 PM
Quote from: psxphill;776584
You cannot use an emulator because you've got perceived problems that you hate the only sane solution to.  
A non-working keyboard is not a sane solution, pardon me. If I have to run in circles to get the input I need, then that's "not working" for me. Once again, the thread is about "why emulators don't work for me", and yes, with the keyboard emulation as it is "it is not working for me". No more, no less.  
Quote from: psxphill;776584
 Your lists of solutions isn't going to inspire anybody, it just makes you look bad.

Whatever you want to believe. At least I'm offering solutions, and it's not that these solutions come completely untested.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 03, 2014, 04:08:49 PM
Quote from: Georg;776577
No, there are other problems with this algorithm, too. Keyboard is used for more things than just typing text. For example think about keyboard shortcuts in a paint/music/cad/3d program. Or about commodity hotkeys. For these it is irrelevant what ASCII the key would produce when used in a text typing program/editor.

A shortcut like "CTRL ALT Q" should always remain on the Q key, even if on the host this sequence would produce the "@" key which on the Amiga keyboard may not be on the Q keq but somewhere else.

Look, it is all a matter of use cases. Apparently, the xx-UAE software was designed for gamers that require keyboard shortcuts placed on physical locations, and not for programming or typing of text or documenrs. I cannot write an email if @ is at a confusing location, and I cannot write a program if \ is at a confusing location. The keyboard definition as it stands is unsuitable for this purpose. The current keyboard definition is one reason, and a very prominent reason, why xxx-UAE is not a good solution for me. Like it or not, but that's really it. Apparently, my usecase hasn't been foreseen by the authors, or is not considered important or interesting, whatever it may be. But that doesn't make the situation *for me* any better. It is *for me* simply not usable the way it is.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Thorham on November 03, 2014, 05:24:40 PM
To Thomas Richter:

So, basically you're complaining about something that you can fix yourself, but won't, because you don't want to spend time fixing something that you would use.

Really, what a load of crap.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 03, 2014, 06:02:49 PM
Quote from: Thorham;776609
To Thomas Richter:

So, basically you're complaining about something that you can fix yourself, but won't, because you don't want to spend time fixing something that you would use.

Really, what a load of crap.

No. A) I don't complain. I report. You may or not may the report, but this is what I have to say on the matter. I'm not trying to attack anyone by this. B) I don't want to spend time on this because I'm simply not interested enough for spending time on it. There are more important tasks I need to take care of. You again may not like this, but yes, that is what it is.  

Apparently, you seem to take this personal. I don't understand why. I'm reporting my experience, a experience you don't share, and you see this as something it isn't. I don't take the matter serious enough to take action. You seem to do, but you should understand that we then live in different worlds.  

This report doesn't require an action. Read it as you please, take action, or ignore it, whatever helps you. All I'm saying is "what I currently get in respect of emulation doesn't satisfy my needs". Full stop. The "need" isn't urgent enough to require any action, and it's so low in priority that I don't waste my time on it. If you want to invest your time, that's all good, I gave hints how to do that, how I approached the problem, where to find my solution, and to review it or implement or ignore it as you seem fit.

Thus, if you plan to do something, you're welcome to do, and that's what I'm able to do about it.

I don't understand why there is any need to turn this into a personal attack. But you should probably adjust your view on reality a little bit. Yes, there are really many things in my life that are more important than Amiga, and I'm rather sorry for you if that's not the case in your life.

Honestly, I don't like the style by which you approach me. What is this about? You have a different opinion? Fine then, be good about it. This is my personal view, my sole and only. Share it or don't. There were good hints in this thread, other solutions I haven't considered, and I may try in the future (and I haven't tried due to lack of time), but your "answer" is really the worst of it.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: HammerD on November 03, 2014, 06:21:56 PM
Hi Thomas, it's too bad you don't have access to a Windows machine, WinUAE is light years ahead of the other "uae" variants as I've seen (I have to admit though, I haven't tested other versions recently).  And Toni Wilen is very quickly fixing bugs and improving the software.

WinUAE on my i7 is crazy fast and even runs AmigaOS 4.1 Classic faster than my "real" Cyberstorm PPC Amiga 4000.  AmigaOS 3.9 is even better supported with WinUAE and it's extensions, it's really a pleasure to use.

Take care,
Darren
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: buzz on November 03, 2014, 06:31:02 PM
Thomas is right and everyone else is wrong - He's way too stubborn / arrogant to admit to anything else - he's also a professional developer and we are all amateurs of course - so what do we know.

He's reporting a problem, except in the wrong place - obviously has no interest in helping the fs-uae developer (even with constructive feedback) - he can't even write on the correct forum. Nor is he able to google for vamos it seems.

I'm just pleased that he is on the other end of a keyboard on a forum, and that I don't have to work with him or something! his questions have been answered - and options given - but he chooses to ignore them (or go on about how they won't work). What more can be done....

fs-uae is an excellent piece of a software - with a friendly dev who goes out his way to implement requested features, write documention, help users and more. The least that could be done would be some polite feedback to him and perhaps actually trying some of the solutions offered by people here.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 03, 2014, 07:19:44 PM
Quote from: buzz;776613
Thomas is right and everyone else is wrong - He's way too stubborn / arrogant to admit to anything else - he's also a professional developer and we are all amateurs of course - so what do we know.  
You still don't get it. How often do I have to repeat this. This is not about "right or wrong". This is about "works for me or not". Yes, if you don't understand the difference, you are an amateur, indeed, but not as a software developer. You're reading something into my post I do not want to be read into them.  
Quote from: buzz;776613
He's reporting a problem, except in the wrong place - obviously has no interest in helping the fs-uae developer (even with constructive feedback) - he can't even write on the correct forum. Nor is he able to google for vamos it seems.
No, exactly *not*. I'm *not* reporting a problem. I'm giving an answer to questions I received. The question was "why don't you use an emulator", and the answer is "because it doesn't work for me because...". If I had any intent to fix an emulator because I had a need to use an emulator, then this would be the wrong place indeed. But that's not what I'm even attempting. I simply do not care about emulators, or windows, or... The are things that are far more important - got it?    
Quote from: buzz;776613
I'm just pleased that he is on the other end of a keyboard on a forum, and that I don't have to work with him or something! his questions have been answered - and options given - but he chooses to ignore them (or go on about how they won't work). What more can be done....
Answers are nice, but I haven't posted any question. I made a statement. Here's another statement, and I repeat it, just for you: If I have to go through circles to get an emulator working for needs such as text editing, one may wonder whether there is probably something wrong. I don't bother enough to do something about it, and it's probably because the emulator isn't designed to be used for what I intended it to be used for. That's it, end of story.    
Quote from: buzz;776613
fs-uae is an excellent piece of a software - with a friendly dev who goes out his way to implement requested features, write documention, help users and more. The least that could be done would be some polite feedback to him and perhaps actually trying some of the solutions offered by people here.

Maybe it is fine for your needs, maybe it works good enough for you, maybe the developer is nice. Very likely that you are correct, I do not doubt that it works for you. All I'm saying, "doesn't work for me". I'm not requesting anyone to fix anything, I'm probably not a typical user for FS-UAE to judge or to care. You don't need to take action to fix anything. I'm not reporting anything, and not requesting a fix. It's a piece of software that, apparently, has an intended audience I'm not part of. That's not a trategy, so why do you make it one?

Again, what is it that you don't accept my experience? It is what happened when I tried to use it, with my particular intended use. What's particularly arrogant about this? You are interpreting something into my mouth I haven't said.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: eliyahu on November 03, 2014, 07:24:43 PM
@thread

guys, this is starting to get a little personal. let's lower the tone, please. people can disagree without being insulting. :)

-- eliyahu
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: mrmoonlight on November 03, 2014, 08:23:14 PM
Quote from: eliyahu;776617
@thread

guys, this is starting to get a little personal. let's lower the tone, please. people can disagree without being insulting. :)

-- eliyahu
Hi and I have to agree  attacking people verbally does not serve a useful purpose and does not make good reading .
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: buzz on November 04, 2014, 01:51:02 AM
I apologise if I have been overly personal or aggressive. It has been a frustrating thread.

I (amongst others) actually thought Thomas was after a solution - I guess not.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Thorham on November 04, 2014, 02:02:12 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776611
I don't complain. I report.
No. This is complaining, the thread title is a dead giveaway:
Quote
Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776611
I don't want to spend time on this because I'm simply not interested enough for spending time on it.
You're certainly interested enough to start a thread like this. A thread which will undoubtedly end up serving no purpose at all.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;776611
Apparently, you seem to take this personal. I don't understand why.
It comes off as complaining, and not doing anything about it while you have the skills to fix it. It's probably not even very difficult, and it probably won't even take all that much time. It's annoying.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;776611
This report doesn't require an action.
And had you contacted the authors of these emulators, and reported the issues properly (something that would've taken less time to do then making this thread and posting in it several times), they might have been interested in fixing the issue.

It's no shirt off my back, of course, but it's certainly annoying. You find it too unimportant to fix, but not to complain about it.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 04, 2014, 07:17:07 AM
Quote from: Thorham;776652
It's no shirt off my back, of course, but it's certainly annoying. You find it too unimportant to fix, but not to complain about it.

Once again: The purpose of the thread was to answer a question I got: "Why don't you use emulators". Here's the answer. You don't like it - that's ok. But I really don't care enough. I don't have the dare need for using an Amiga emulator in first place. It would be a "nice to have", but not a "must have". Reporting my problems would have caused another round of needless discussions, discussions that happened here already, and I'm tired of discussing this stuff.

My conclusion from this is that apparently emulators are good enough for those that want to use them, for the typical purpose of those that use them, and I guess that's probably gaming. That's perfectly fine, I don't doubt it. So let it be as it is. You also don't complain that your fridge cannot brew coffee - it's not designed to do that. So apparently I started with an expectation on the purpose of these programs for something they were never designed for. It would be nice if the fridge would brew coffee, but it doesn't. Tough luck, my fault to expect it could. I'm still using a coffee machine for that (i.e. the Amiga hardware), and that works according to my expectations.

There's a subtile difference here. You seem to understand "Emulators are crap", but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying "they don't suit my intended purpose because...", and I don't really want to bother arguing about a purpose that wasn't intended in first place.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: Thorham on November 04, 2014, 07:52:51 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776661
Once again: The purpose of the thread was to answer a question I got: "Why don't you use emulators".
Then answer them by PM or email instead of starting a thread which comes off as complaining.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: psxphill on November 04, 2014, 10:14:01 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776603
I cannot write an email if @ is at a confusing location, and I cannot write a program if \ is at a confusing location.


That is the case out of the box, but both uae and amigaos allows them to be configured so they would be in the correct place for you.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;776611
This report doesn't require an action.

Why did you request a specific solution to the problem then?

If instead you had asked if anybody had a solution to the problem you were facing and you didn't just shout down everybody who gave you solutions then you might have found this thread to be more amicable. What you suggested is over-engineered and is likely to be more of a maintenance issue moving forward.

Someone probably should come up with a pre-packaged set of files for each country for working in UAE this way, it would appear that nobody is that bothered or it would have been done already.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 04, 2014, 10:47:08 AM
Quote from: psxphill;776669
That is the case out of the box, but both uae and amigaos allows them to be configured so they would be in the correct place for you.
Make an "idiot test", and take me as the idiot. This test works as follows: Take someone who is sufficiently experienced with AmigaOs, and sufficiently experienced with the host operating system, and expose him or her to the emulator in question. As him or her to perform task X, where X is defined by a use case. X can be "play a game", or "write a program", or "use a CAD program". Then watch what he or she does, and where problems appear.

I told you the output of my idiot test. "Didn't work". It does not matter whether the key is configurable if I don't know where to configure (bad documentation) or if I had to configure it in first place ("why isn't it in the right place to begin with").

You may question my choice of X ("write a program") instead of your X ("play a game"), but you cannot question my experience. My experience is what I described here: "It does not satisfy my needs". That's it.

Quote from: psxphill;776669
Why did you request a specific solution to the problem then?
Once again. I DID NOT REQUEST A SOLUTION. I'm describing my experience. How often do I need to say?

Quote from: psxphill;776669
What you suggested is over-engineered and is likely to be more of a maintenance issue moving forward.
Look, this is a discussion about use cases, software usability, usability tests and maintenance. For your application and your use case, this might be overengineering indeed. I don't doubt it, and I said that I probably misunderstood what the emulators are designed to be good for. (Even though, it's really not *that* complicated, as I did it, but whatever, what might be simple for one might be complicated for another).

For my use case, it seemed self evident that the default configuration is or should be a useful (as in "useful for me") configuration. It isn't. That's my experience. In my simple minded idiot approach, I simply took it for granted that if I press key "X" on the keyboard, the computer reads input "X", with X=\ or @. This expectation is apparently silly for what you had in mind, sorry for that. It seems for your application far more improtant that X matches the position on the original Amiga keyboard. This might be valid, I don't doubt your words, but it's wrong for me, and I can only ensure you that it really is. It is very confusing and stops me from typing efficiently.

The simple-minded expectation I have if I use a program for "X" (with X= "write a program") that the program reacts without further hassle for me in a natural case, for whatever "natural" means in this specific case. For me it means "Alt+ß" is backslash, because that's what's printed on my keyboard. I'm apparently expecting something wrong, and probably for the only reason that these emulators haven't been designed for my use. This is, as said, not a trategy, but simply a fact, and I'm stating this fact.

Configuration doesn't make this better - it is an additional barrier you create for first time users like me, even more so if the documentation is lacking. See the idiot test. I strongly believe that every other user with the same intended use ("write a program") would have stated as well "what the f?ck is this?" and would have put the program aside. Or maybe not, at least this is my believe.

"First time should get it right", quite simple. The problem is, and I'm saying this once again, that "right for you" and "right for me" are different things, as we found out. Now what? I don't want and can't complain - if it fits your needs, so may it be. It doesn't fit mine, it's not a tragedy, I have other ways I prefer to do my errants.

Quote from: psxphill;776669
Someone probably should come up with a pre-packaged set of files for each country for working in UAE this way, it would appear that nobody is that bothered or it would have been done already.

Better installation procedure, or selection of a choice during installation ("match by position" vs. "match by key label") might be a possible solution for this problem, yes. If you believe it is worth a thought. I, as said, do not mind if people tell me that my expectations are probably overly ambitious or do not meet the expected requirements of the software.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: psxphill on November 04, 2014, 11:00:15 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776673
Once again. I DID NOT REQUEST A SOLUTION. I'm describing my experience. How often do I need to say?
 
 You clearly did.
 
 
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776065
Solutions: Yes, this is hard. Two keyboard layouts are involved. The PC keyboard, and the Amiga keyboard. The solution I have found in "atari++" is: If the key maps to a regular printable character, perform the mapping by position. If the user presses the "Z" key, emulate the key that is at the same position as on the Amiga keyboard. This way, local keymaps work. If the key is a function key, i.e. "shift" or "caps lock", perform the mapping by function, not by position. Caps and Control are always the same position on a PC keyboard, no matter which national layout is used, so allow the user to change the position of these keys. Kes that are not on the PC keyboard should be emulated in an obvious matter. Backslash: AltGr+? for a German keyboard, hence "map by function". Simply *not* mapping this key is not helping.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 04, 2014, 11:55:52 AM
Quote from: psxphill;776675
You clearly did.

Oh, stop the bull. I'm offering my solution for the same problem, I'm not requesting that this problem is solved in xx-UAE. Whether that's ever working in xx-UAE I don't even care about anymore. I found that this isn't what I want, or isn't even supposed to work as I would prefer it to work.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: psxphill on November 04, 2014, 04:12:25 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776679
Oh, stop the bull. I'm offering my solution for the same problem, I'm not requesting that this problem is solved in xx-UAE.

And you say I should stop the bull?
 You should be a politician.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: guest11527 on November 04, 2014, 06:58:51 PM
Quote from: psxphill;776698
And you say I should stop the bull?
 You should be a politician.

What else do you expect? Or rather, what else is the intent of your intent than to provoke exactly this reply? I told you what the intention was. If you want to read something different into my answer, then I afraid that just shows your intent to see me as someone I'm not. Thus, stop the nonense, please.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: paolone on November 04, 2014, 10:32:08 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776291
No thanks. If the author doesn't care about Linux, I don't care about the program. I do make exceptions for work and essential programs, but UAE is none of them.

Oh, my God. Please stop this childish attitude.

"I don't like emulator because it doesn't have a key I use"
"so map it to something else"
"but gneeee gneeee it should be theeeereeee!"

"I need it to compile things inside the emulator"
"you can cross-compile them outside of it"
"but gneeeeh gneeeeh it's not the same"

"WinUAE GUI has things FS-UAE hasn't"
"You can run WinUAE on Linux using wine if FS-UAE does not fit your needs"
"but gneeeh gneeeh I don't like it and if coder does not consider Linux, I don't consider his program no matter if I can freely modify it as I wish"

and so on. Really, this discussion doesn't picture you very well. You'd consider stopping it.
Title: Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Post by: eliyahu on November 04, 2014, 10:49:54 PM
Quote from: paolone;776718
You'd consider stopping it.
no, i will. this thread had some good discussion, but now it's just getting personal. so... thread locked. if anyone objects, please send me a PM. thanks!

-- eliyahu