Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: DaveP on February 10, 2003, 06:10:12 PM
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Pegasos/MorphOS - Almighty Row Breaks Out (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1044804752&category=forum&start=1&47)
Im not sure I posted this under the right topic.
Read it through folks and come to your own conclusions. Please don't bring the flamewar here
but just be aware that it is going on. Consider it
an FYI.
Im sure there is a rational explanation for all of this.
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I thought this comment from ADMV about sums
up the situation:
I did add this comment earlier but its disappeared along with the thread.
Anyway.
To cut to the chase.
Would I spend a year developing, testing, beta testing and then going through the expensive hardware costs without making sure my suppliers could supply the parts?
Errr... No
Would I spend the time hawking myself round all the news groups, news sites, and 'amiga' sphere type locations bragging and making claims about what I am about to produce only to produce zip. zero. nado. nothing.(ok, a number of beta boards, test boards, review boards..) Not only that, I make sure I muddy the waters enough that not only do I cock up my stuff, I bring enough FUD to the party that anyone else working in the same sphere is at least partially affected.
Errr no..
Would I then go down the road of allowing people to pre-order or get involved in long drawn out flame wars with prospective or possible customers over supply shortages, especially after having everyone on my team brag about the vast resources available and that there will 'be no problem'.
Errr..no
Would I behave like this if I were a CEO.
Errr .. no
I do not know the full picture regarding Articia chipset shipments, lost production, lawsuits, falling out with suppliers, making new enemies, and I suspect only those on the inside track actually know whats going on.
Nor do I care. The likely hood of me purchasing anything PPC from *Anyone* in the amiga sphere always was close to nill. But the antics just go from bad to worse.
To some degree I kind of hope you all go out of business, just so that we get some peace and quiet.
And please please please, don't buy any amiga parts on 'pre-orders' or by dubious methods. Make sure you have your consumer protection, and preferrabley make sure you can actually purchase the goods at the time of purchase and not by some mail order antics.
There should be a new methodology carried forward by 'amiga' people buying 'amiga' goods.
'TRUST NO ONE.'
AdmV
Reply to this comment
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A business that sends boards to customers that don't pay for them goes out of business, that's the rational explination for this.
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@DaveP
I like the post too.
Especially, because the poster re-iterates the concept of being a 'good consumer'.
This market needs more savvy consumers. Right now, with the boards in limited supply, they are still going at unsustainable and ridiculously high prices.
Those who can't wait, are going to get bit for several hundred dollars....
It's one thing if you can't wait, if I was a developer, I would certainly spend 300-400 dollars too much on a board to get a product a month early...my time is worth it....
but with pre-ordering, you aren't even getting a product, you are both paying a huge premium, and saying you are willing to wait as well....this is just so shocking...why, why, why...I shake my head.
thanks for the post, I think its a good warning.
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"They are really losing credibility"
That should go for Amiga inc aswell.
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@Paul
It does go for all companies involved. We were all given timeframes by both companies, so the end will tell us who was really working on the means.
I can only ask that we (myself included) refrain from bashing either company based on their promises, unless money is cought up in those promises. (i.e. waiting on a Pegasos or bought a coupon) Then, try (I know it isn't always possible) to keep the bashing related to that.
Lawsuits tend to get sorted out in court, and bad business plans or broken promises will eventually show themselves. I can't blame anyone for pre-ordering diddly anymore in this market.
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Looks like they are not ready for PrimeTime yet...
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@downix
downix wrote:
A business that sends boards to customers that don't pay for them goes out of business, that's the rational explination for this.
Thats the part that just isn't clear. Miky060 does not
come out of it too well, nor does Eva but the treatment they got on the message boards does not
seem to be "the done thing".
Considering Eva is known as "Eva the Troll" for his
fanatical pro-MorphOS/Pegasos stance ( like the reverse for Samface ) postings all over the place whether on topic or not - it is interesting.
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"FYI: Grass not so green on the other side"
What kind of "other" side? Both sides mistakes, wrongdoings make us look pathetic in some way. IMO
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Everyone assumes that the grass is greener on the other
side and sometimes maybe if you just look it is not as
green as you think, its just a saying ... no need to get hung up over it
or the "side" part of the quotation :-)
I couldn't hand on heart lobby for users to invest in the
Amiga market right at the moment. For some time I have
been considering that Pegasos market was lower risk
and worth advocating users to get on board - but that
was just "grass is greener on the other side".
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Just as I think the ONE/OS4 route will be better.
Yet, you go for the XE way, am for the Peg. That's why I think there are no need for sides. Did I choose the right path? Dunno, I have my doubts.
I have seen surprisingly positive marketing and plain negative campaigns and mistakes as well.
Good and bad are dead. It's just the community which is the same. :-)
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Hi Everyone!
Please see Post #69 on the "MorphOS Betatester2 Quickstart Guide v2.0 available" thread on www.morphos-news.de.
Thanks!
...and Dave you are right! ;-)
Best regards,
R&B :-D
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DaveP wrote:
Consider it an FYI.
Thanks, DaveP. Before I read Bill Buck's post at the (then) bottom of this thread, I was ready to dismiss you as another FUD spreader just like the guy who spawned the bad-feeling thread at ann.lu by posting "an FYI" about what was happening at the morphos-news.de forum where this all started. (You're faux-innocent information service was pretty transparent BTW.) But anyway bringing the sordid thing up here did enable me to find the link to the bbrv post at morphos-news that hopefully will put an end to this sad tale and hopefully mark the beginning of nicer dialog in the future on such topics. Thanks again.
-- gary_c
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@Gary
Thanks, DaveP. Before I read Bill Buck's post at the (then) bottom of this thread, I was ready to dismiss you as another FUD spreader
You have a right to your own opinions. As i said, please dont
bring the flaming here but most people on Amiga.org don't bother
to read ANN any more.
I take objection to the "FUD spreading" bit. A consumer
row was reported on an Amiga based product. If I had wanted
to spread FUD it would have been a News Item saying "Dont
trust GENESI!" but given that this is not my opinion nor
a credible conclusion to come to please go ahead and
ascribe motives to me in order to discredit not only my
reporting of an interesting link but also me in the future. Im
sure with enough followups like this I will become as
discredited as Mr Bouma. Not that I actually care about
what your opinion of me is. I don't claim to be anything
other than a potential user of all Amiga related products.
I won't be able to convince you of my motives so there
is no point in bothering. But pointing out that there is
probably a rational explanation should give you a minor
clue as to what I think of the debate as it was at that
stage ( irrational ).
Given that Bill saw it in context and in perspective ( and
I would guess the spirit in which it was intended ) I am
surprised that you didn't. You see on the one side we have
Genesi the company which looks like a safe bet for new users
and is stable, growing and professional ...
....but on the other side we have the community that surrounds
it which seems to have more than its fair share of nutters ( like Miky060, Eva, Cheesegrate ). Look at this
from the outside, would you recommend Genesi to a friend
if the dialogue between its usebase and the company can
degenerate to this level?? In fact pretty much like the
"The NAME(TM)" community eh?
I don't see this as being particularly damaging to Genesi
I see it as further evidence that the "Amiga community"
( vendors and users ) have no sense of perspective and
members of the community no sense of rational discourse.
just like the guy who spawned the bad-feeling thread at ann.lu by posting "an FYI" about what was happening at the morphos-news.de forum where this all started.
Oh COME ON the guy on ANN said "look what Genesi did
to this guy" and proceeded to editorialise - whereas I just
said look, heres a row breaking out go and make up your
own mind.
You might not see the difference because I guess you are
inclined to vent if anything is posted that might lead to
the shiny image being questioned. If you read the whole thread
through ( which I encouraged ) you will see that no-one
comes out of this with credit.
(You're faux-innocent information service was pretty transparent BTW.)
Whatever Gary. I mean don't let your own bias influence
your interpretations of my motives...
But anyway bringing the sordid thing up here did enable me to find the link to the bbrv post at morphos-news that hopefully will put an end to this sad tale and hopefully mark the beginning of nicer dialog in the future on such topics. Thanks again.
Glad you accept that it was sordid, but brushing sordid
things under the carpet does nobody ANY good.
I advise you not to get so worried about articles like this
appearing because by tackling and reporting them head on the rumour mill
when it has gone through the usual chinese whispers
will NOT be so effective because EVERYONE knows
what the real story is.
But hey, who am I to try to educate people on rumour
management?
(edit - r/jerk/nutters )
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Folks, the link that Bill was talking about is on Morphos-news.de
and not ANN ( which is where I went looking for it )
Bill clarifies his position (http://www.morphos-news.de/comments.php?lg=en&nid=209)
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I'll not drag the whole tedious lot of a posting I made on ANN into here, but I am going to paste a section that I think relevant:
"Frankly I think Mikey060 was putting his/her foot in it even months ago with incessant complaining on #morphos. I thought there was a problem in the making because I saw NO PATIENCE, and no wish to understand that many other developers were also waiting to get machines. It seemed like escalating demands would eventually become intolerable and felt that the situation would probably become a public problem due to poor communication skills and a mouth that said FEED ME without thinking of others. But enough of that..."
Hopefully my sig will show where some of my sympathies lie, though it perhaps cannot share how I came believe what I believe ; } At any rate, best to all.
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You can say what you will, but the posts on morphos.de make a very vivid impression of a CEO turned shoolchild in my mind.
Child 1- Can I play with your new soccer ball?
Child 2- Sure come over here, and give me some money (child 1 comes over and hand over cash, and afterward child 2 ignores him..."nanananah I'm not listening")
Child 1- You said I could play
Child 2- I never said you could play, go away.
Child 1- Come on, I paid you to let me play
Child 2- No you didn't, it's my ball and I don't EVER want you to play with it. GO AWAY! I don't want anything to do with YOU or ANYONE who thinks like you.
Ok, very over simplified, but some clear things come to mind when reading the whole nausiating story on morphos.de. Glad I'm not a Pegasos/Morphos customer.
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@Herewegoagain
Would be more accurate if child 1 ran home to get money, but when he got back child 2 had gone home with the ball, as 060 there did not pay for a board in time to recieve one of the last batch. His payment will be returned once it arrives, which could be this week or next week, depending on the bank and how he excized the transfer.
The expression when I sold cars was "the car you looked at today and are going to buy tomorrow is the car someone else saw yesterday and will buy today." When opportunities present themselves, you must jump on them or else you will loose them. Opportunity only knocks once, and then it's gone. 060's claiming foul, when he has only himself to blame. Other developers and customers that jumped on the opportunity when presented have been rewarded with a pegasos.
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surrounded by morons , nothing new and nothing old, will be the death of pegasos/amiga.
anyway nothing shocking here as i have heard alot more bad stuff, my only consern now is to stay focused and happy.
for genesi: GOOD luck with your way to the bottom.
Amigainc: public appearences is wise, suprise us.
soon there is ALT-WOA time again, and more meetings , i dont belive anything new will show up and i dont belive anything positive will happen until atleast may2003.
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We believe we can be the real and long awaited -- NeXT if we can do that -- think about that in terms of the Pegasos and MorphOS of course...;-)
Okay, so he aspires to make MorphOS/Pegasos the then big publicly touted failed platform and to some day run Apple.
It's like aspiring to be the next BEOS...
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Well.. it could be worse.. I think. A lot is seen in month or so. Cebit is soon and there are lot of promices made by companies involved to these products.
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The expression when I sold cars was "the car you looked at today and are going to buy tomorrow is the car someone else saw yesterday and will buy today." When opportunities present themselves, you must jump on them or else you will loose them. Opportunity only knocks once, and then it's gone. 060's claiming foul, when he has only himself to blame. Other developers and customers that jumped on the opportunity when presented have been rewarded with a pegasos.
You miss the point. For the CEO of a company to talk to a potential customer in public forums this way is in my opinion completely unacceptable. It doesn't matter if 060 responded as instructed or if Bill likes him or not. It should have never come down to what it did. Bill Buck should have handled the matter in private email, or better still, have someone with proper public relation skills do the job for him.
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You are right on target, Herewegoagain!
To think that ANY CEO who would post on a public forum is CRAZY!
WTF was he thinking?
Does he want to continue his career as a CEO by posting schite on the internet?
Make some products, let us buy them. KISS.
(An American saying for Keep It Simple Stupid!)
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You miss the point. For the CEO of a company to talk to a potential customer in public forums this way is in my opinion completely unacceptable.
Absolutely. I made some negative comments towards Mr. Buck on ann a few days ago and he actually emailed me asking me why I reacted the way I did. I tried to explain to him pretty much what you said above, but I got the feeling that it didn't really sink in.
The funny thing is, if he really had an issue with a particular person he should have dealt with him/her in private email instead of making an ass of himself in public. Why he chose to email me in private is beyond me... perhaps he's a slow learner?!?
Although it's kinda neat to see big names in the community participating on public forums, I think people who have entire companies on the line should know better and are expected to act responsibly. Although I welcome their presence in the forums I think they should put more effort into releasing company and product info in a more professional manner then just getting knee deep in some flamefest on some random forum. Issue press releases, FAQs, photos and hold interviews with respected journalists. Do NOT go onto public forums and confront, insult or threaten individuals as it strips away all credibility. I don't think I could make it any clearer then this.
- Mike
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Absolutely. I made some negative comments towards Mr. Buck on ann a few days ago and he actually emailed me asking me why I reacted the way I did. I tried to explain to him pretty much what you said above, but I got the feeling that it didn't really sink in.
Well, I've already recieved my 2 PM's from him. To put it bluntly, he thinks I'm a "jerk" and a "coward". Ok by me... name calling just re-affirms what I already thought. I was actually worried about Thendic/Genesi/Bplan being too much competition for Amiga at one point. Those feelings are now laid to rest. If they (Amiga/Hyperion/Eyetech) get new product out the door, I'm there.
Shame really.
@Machinehead
I told Chris to hold your order and you would come pick it up. Let me know when you are coming by, as I go out of shop alot to customer sites. I can leave money with him or one of the guys in the shop if I can't be there.
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If I had wanted to spread FUD it would have been a News Item saying "Dont trust GENESI!" but given that this is not my opinion nor a credible conclusion to come to please go ahead and ascribe motives to me in order to discredit not only my reporting of an interesting link but also me in the future.
I think if you just wanted to give a heads up to people here about something on ann.lu, you wouldn't have titled the thread "FYI: Grass not so green on the other side." This isn't reporting, it's editorializing. I'm sure you can see the difference. Of course you can disingenuously argue with me about what you're motives were; I can only respond with an observation of your actions. If you want to "report" and have your posts taken as reports, then reflect journalistic principles. Keep in mind, of course, that even journalists and organizations have their biases and alert readers take them into consideration when evaluating what they read.
-- gary_c
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Hey guys.
You know what. Sometime ago I had the drive to go through the long threads and read some posts, sometimes the whole thread.
But now I just don't give a rats ass anymore. Boring. And I don't think there are many people with the patience I have. Well at least to Amiga related things. The impression I have, sorry don't mean to ofend anyone, is that if you're still gonna go through all that day after day, you need to get a life! No problems happen to everyone, the hard part is to admit it. I'm not targetting this to DaveP by the way:), nor to anyone, you guys know who you are. Hmm maybe I need to get a life too :-D
Just thought I'd use the possibility of staying anonomous that the net gives you, to share something more profound (?) with you, take it more or less as a F* joke... :-D
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Although it's kinda neat to see big names in the community participating on public forums
It's more than neat, its what a lot of us want. I'm not sure I agree with Bill's strategy entirely, or if I even understand all of it.
But I do know the difference between his motivations and mine. His motivations are his business. What I want from a CEO is for them to listen to what I have to say.
And for gosh sakes, also want them to do exactly what I tell them at all times.
That last one has been a little more elusive, but one step at a time!
It sounds to me, like you don't want CEO's to talk with you, I can only speculate why, so I wont....but for some reason you are really objecting to it, and the only reasons you give are in terms of Bill's interests and not in terms of yours.....interesting.
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It sounds to me, like you don't want CEO's to talk with you,
huh?!? What was it that I said that made you come to that conclusion?!? I'm just saying that if they decide to talk with us they must remember that they are not just anyone and have a higher level of responsibility with the things that they post on an open forum. Sure, Bill and any other Bill may and should participate at some level in the community as it's important to stay in touch. However staying in touch doesn't mean to figurativly reach out and punch someone, especially if that someone is a potential customer in a community full of potential customers.
So yes, someone like Buck should participate in the forums but if he feels a need to make a statement about his company or products then he should consider a more formal avenue. If he feels there's a gross misunderstanding in the community then address it in a more formal PR release or offer an interview with some tech-journalist and not waste time attacking individual members.
You do realize that companies hire PR people to handle the public's concerns and to avoid situations like the one Buck got himself into. Buck might want to consider being more careful in what he says and how he says it if he intends to post on public forums, and that's all I'm really saying.
- Mike
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@Gary
Look I even said that I dont consider myself
a reporter, or a journalist so tactics that work on
Mike Bouma do not work on me.
You do know what the title of this is paraphrased
from dont you?
"Grass is greener on the other side"
Nowhere do I say it is less green on the other side.
I think you are just trying to discredit me. Which is
your right but this:
Of course you can disingenuously argue with me
Suggests that if I argue with you I am being disingenuous. Which is a childish stance for you to take. Ive seen better debating tactics from 14 year
olds in a playground. Sure they might stumble over
the length of the words you use but the import
is the same.
The fact that you go to the length of choosing to
misnterpret the TITLE ( because as I pointed out there is nothing in the body or my words that could allow you to ascribe motives to me like this ) shows
your desperation to discredit.
In fact your are placing your own meaning and motive on your interpretation of the title
"editorialising" it for your own purpose.
But hey, Ive long gone past expecting anything different from you having seen how you reacted
on this and one other thread. :-D
I wonder if you would post a story on here about
a row in the Amiga* "communities" with the motives
you are trying to credit to me? I wonder if in fact
the motives you ascribe to me are actually what your
motives would be in my situation?
Nah. You are just lashing out because you are feeling
frustrated and Im a convenient target. :-)
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@JoannaK
It could be a lot worse. I reckon 20 to 1 odds against
AmigaOS4 appearing at Cebit. ;-)
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It seems you guys are missing the point...
But first:
@Mike, you know having an intelligent conversation beginning with you are an idiot might be difficult for most to overcome. I tried. I not sure that sank in either. Now that I have made the connection between Glaucus and our earlier exchange here I can consider the source more thoughtfully.
@Herewegoagain, you suggested private email and when you receive it you rejected it. What is the sense of this? BTW, what do you know about being a CEO? Have you ever started a Company? Have you ever managed people? I am not *aggressing* you, I just want to know what your qualifications are to judge me? In the meanwhile, if you become a customer, we can have another discussion.
@machinehead, forget the CEO part, maybe we will find someone more able to do that. How about Raquel and I are busy on these boards because we have over 1 million Euros invested in the Pegasos, MorphOS, and organization we are building to support it. Do you think we should be allowed to comment?
Have you read this post? (http://www.morphos-news.de/?lg=en&nid=213&si=1) :-)
This site is very good. In fact, with all due respect to ANN and MorphOS-News this site is better. But, the others can improve and so can amiga.org. BTW, Amiga-News is a good site too, but evolution is a great thing and they all need to evolve a little in our opinion. Let us give you some of our ideas...
We will be looking for a few *good* trolls soon. We will need to populate the sites with active, intelligent, and sharp exchange. Have you ever seen a 80+ thread on MorphOS-News? Controversy attracts attention -- both indignation and pride of association. When the whole episode flip-flops at the end, the bashers are left without quarter and sulk away, the *good* guys cheer, and the silent majority moves to the high ground (hopefully where we are standing at the top when it is over). Trolling can be useful, but personal insults and falsifications should not be tolerated. Or, set up a special arena where anyone -even CEOs- can say whatever they want without reproach. Keep all the BS there -- the Flame Pit or something like that -- actually condoning that might not be good either (just sharing ideas and trying to stimulate discussion). Maybe, one way would be an online duel or the two adversaries go against each other in an online game of quake. Someone wins, another loses, but the venting had an alternative emotional release than personal insult (where most people resort to when they cannot find anything else to say).
Lies should be exposed directly at the end of the thread, a commentary should be made and the comments locked. Another thread can begin (as Wayne has done) and the synopsis can be referenced (like lawyers do with Case Law). Why waste all that brain power?! Even if some of the comments were misguided they were part of what created the discussion. The idea is to not allow ignorance to be bliss. Example: This thread was initiated by Glaucus who made an outrageous statement about Universal amiga.org Conscription. 143 comments were made from 87 members. There were five new members that posted for the first time in the thread. The Troll Ratio was .687 (the Troll ratio is calculated by adding up the total number of posts made by each member in all threads; if they post more than once in a thread they are counted more than once; the total number at the end is divided by the total number of individual posts in the thread. This number is divided by 1000 and a unit of time. 1000 being some magic number poster number....here is your gold star, etc.). Anyway, the synopsis would continue....there were excellent remarks from MarkTime, DaveP and gary_c. Here are the key points: 1, 2, 3. In conclusion, XXX. This thread has achieved Gold Status and will be recorded as Thread 276, stardate XXX (hey, after the stormtrooper thing MarkTime I have to have some sort of related remark...) Seriously, good comments or conclusions should be filed into the library, referenced and available for all to consider.
People are not loyal unless they feel like they are part of something. Wayne has been very shrewd in creating hooks that draw people back and keep them active. We would like to see something more along those lines -- something beyond commentary and screenshots. While both can be very good indications of skill, we would like to be extolling the advent of the website that hosts the development of a DEMO project or a set of leagues for internet game competitions (and if you become a gladiator in that league you get a broadsword icon like Dammy uses (for example) underneath your name. Picture a South American General's chest...mass multiplayer online games ARE the future. If we could organize this in games, leagues, teams, we might see some interesting cohesion and a powerful sense of belonging. Teamwork!
Actually, we need a system to reward loyalty, responsibility, creativity, intelligence and skill. We are not looking for minions. We need innovators, creative types, interesting characters, etc (all wrapped up in that team thing). Wayne does a pretty good job because he is smart, but he needs to have more tools than a six gun -- he needs to be more than a Sheriff. We can create an environment like this, but it will take smart people to do it...;-)
Raquel and I do not have anything against you three mentioned earlier, there is just more going on here than meets the eye -- think about it. ;-)
Community suggests participation and opportunity, but it also requires responsibility. We are NOT looking to standardize the patter. You need to understand that.
Here is a message we would like to send:
Dear DaveP (a good example),
We have read with no small amount of interest the comments you have made online in the last year. We would like you to know that from our perspective you are on of the top 5% of the posters online in the threads we read. Could we draw your interest to a new organization we are establishing? We would like to ask you to become a charter member. Here is what you have to do:
1. Continue to do your own thinking
2. Continue to post thoughtful comments and insight into remarks made online
3. Agree to this code of conduct (example): XXX
4. Help us keep the ship moving in a good direction
Etc....
It is different than a Moderator (in fact -Moderator- sounds like Sister Mary Elephant -- we should come up with some new names). It is more like a First Citizen. Think of ancient Greece. First Citizens can be dubbed Senators when they have contributed huge amounts of effort and intelligence...see where we are going with this...;-)
Anyway, thanks reading this!
Sincerely,
R&B :-D
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Dear DaveP (a good example),
Could we draw your interest to a new organization we are establishing? We would like to ask you to become a charter member. Here is what you have to do:
1. Continue to do your own thinking
2. Continue to post thoughtful comments and insight into remarks made online
3. Agree to this code of conduct (example): XXX
4. Help us keep the ship moving in a good direction
Where does one go to find out more? I don't want to appear ungrateful
for what seems to be quite a compliment but momma told me never
sign nothin' till I'd seen it with the ink dry under a magnifying glass. ;-)
Why waste all that brain power?! Even if some of the comments were misguided they were part of what created the discussion. The idea is to not allow ignorance to be bliss.
Now this I agree would be neat, but it would be difficult
to implement and you would need a searchable index on
the summaries.
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@Herewegoagain, you suggested private email and when you receive it you rejected it. What is the sense of this? BTW, what do you know about being a CEO? Have you ever started a Company? Have you ever managed people? I am not *aggressing* you, I just want to know what your qualifications are to judge me? In the meanwhile, if you become a customer, we can have another discussion.
I never suggested a private email with ME.... I meant to your customer who was complaining with concerns over his "purchase". So when you pm'd me and said what do you want to talk about, my answer is NOTHING.... I'm not the customer who is disgruntled.
As for the CEO thing, I've never been a Priest either, but I know for sure what conduct to expect of him. No particular qualifications needed, other than common sense. It's simple Bill. :)
And for the record, I've never called you an idiot, jerk, coward, or any other bad thing. If you want to gain respect, you have to show it first.
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herewegoagain Herewegoagain...
Again, you are certainly entitled to your opinion about me and anything else, but just to make sure you don't miss the real issues here:
1. Eliminate false statements from the list of facts (Miky060 is not a customer).
2. Demonstrate respect to others: I would like to apologize to you if I misunderstood your personal comments about me.
Starting discussion again....
Actually, you have given us another idea..."common sense" is undoubtedly the English language's greatest misnomer. Further, your use of CEO and Priest in the same sentence calls a thought toward "perspective." Why do you think the way you do? Where do you come from? What is your technical background? (etc. , etc.) Sort of like your "Account Page" -- WHO YOU ARE. When understood, it is easier to evaluate an opinion or a statement another makes to be able to better appreciate the ideas/opinions/statements.
This is heavy-duty stuff, but think of it as "credentialing." THIS IS WHO I AM. The more you reveal about yourself the better others understand you. This is the delicate balance between "Privacy" and "Security." Security should a standard and it should be the highest possible. Privacy is a choice each person makes. It is two different things.
Come back to the Community idea...say we have three levels of participation:
1. Blind Pool
2. Chitchat
3. Serious stuff
Anyone can say whatever they want in the Blind Pool -- even Anonymously (yikes, I cannot believe I said that). Chitchat is what we have here now. Serious stuff is on a higher level. Comments must respect the dignity of others, rely on verifiable fact, and be written with an ambition of making a concept or an issue more understood by all concerned. To post here full disclosure is required. You can still "troll" you just have to back it up and have the courage to put a "face" to the comments.
Who you are = your credentials. This is with the authority you speak.
We actually could do that with a smart card.
Idonotwanttodoitagain, OK? :-D
We can keep the discussion at this level. It is better for us. Please post your ideas.
Sincerely,
R&B :-)
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DaveP wrote:
Look I even said that I dont consider myself
a reporter, or a journalist so tactics that work on
Mike Bouma do not work on me.
I'm not using any "tactics" as far as I know; I'm just trying to be logical.Nowhere do I say it is less green on the other side.
You say "FYI: Grass not so green on the other side". Doesn't "less green" mean the same as "not so green"? :-)
I think you are just trying to discredit me.
Not at all. I don't have any bad feelings about you as a person. All I'm doing is responding to arguments, to statements. What bothers me in these forums is when I read something that as an idea seems off base, or when I read something that doesn't seem to be logical or when I feel some kind of game is being played. It doesn't matter to me who the poster is. In fact I'd like to think we could all have a good time together if we meet up somewhere. It's the ideas and statements I take issue with here.The fact that you go to the length of choosing to
misnterpret the TITLE ( because as I pointed out there is nothing in the body or my words that could allow you to ascribe motives to me like this ) shows
your desperation to discredit.
First of all, the title is a pretty important part of a post, wouldn't you say, especially when you are starting a new thread and so it's the title of the thread. So when your title says essentially that things aren't so great presumeably in Genesi land (an assumption made based on the subject of the morphos-news.de and ann.lu threads), we have to take that as your position on the matter. Secondly, you quote ADMV's post, agreeing with it, in which he criticizes Genesi's handling of the matter. So, no, the interpretation of your post title stands as valid, as far as I can tell.In fact your are placing your own meaning and motive on your interpretation of the title
"editorialising" it for your own purpose.
I don't know why you're going to such lengths to distance yourself from the obvious interpretation of the title of your post. You can edit your old posts, you know, if you're uncomfortable now with what you wrote. But if I'm misinterpreting "The grass is not so green on the other side," then how do you explain your agreement with ADMV and so on? Anyway, what would my "purposes" be? Although I'm part of the Phoenix consortium, which is working with Genesi, I'm not a blind advocate of anybody's cause here. I support technology that I like and I work with people that I like, but not to the point of being illogical or unreasonable.But hey, Ive long gone past expecting anything different from you having seen how you reacted
on this and one other thread.
Heh. Comments like that are just funny and only show somebody scraping the barrel bottom for retorts. "long past expecting anything different" -- as if you knew me at all. Please, line up my "reactions" for scrutiny if I'm so far gone. ;-) I'd like to see what you consider out of order.I wonder if you would post a story on here about
a row in the Amiga* "communities" with the motives
you are trying to credit to me?
First of all, I wouldn't see the merit in posting about a row when the whole thing should've been taken care of privately. 90% of the posters are using second- or third-hand information and the other 10% are tired and frustrated. So common sense would say it's better ignored. Like I said in my first post in this thread, the "row" at ann.lu was the result of some guy doing an "FYI" about the morphos-news thread. I saw no need to perpetuate the ridiculousness. Anyway, if you are in fact neutral on this FYI thing, I imagine we'll be seeing posts from you in the future that also show Genesi in a good light, such as about the Equinoxe sponsorship. I'll be keeping my eyes open. Nah. You are just lashing out because you are feeling
frustrated and Im a convenient target.
No, as I described, you, as a person, are not a target at all. Your post was, and your characterization of it as neutral news was. If I'm "lashing out" then I've set a new standard for low-key lashing. I'm just commenting on your post and what I interpreted as your motives, based on what I read. Am I frustrated? Sure, we all have frustrations, but I'm not so thick as to redirect my frustrations into a computing forum. Try another explanation if you like, or let the thing drop. This has become the kind of one-on-one you-said/I-said that's got to be the most tedious, no-win thing to read or be part of in a discussion.
-- gary_c
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Look we wont agree until doomsday.
The fact that you cant see that
"Grass Not So Green on the other side"
...is relative to...
"Grass Is Greener on the other side"
...and means....
"Grass on other side is not as green as we thought"
...and not...
"Grass on other side is less green as on this side"
....sayes it all.
Ive supplied you with sufficient collateral on this. If you
want a bitch fight, find someone smaller than you bud.
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Hey!
We think alot of both of you.
Could we bring the focus back to the topic as an example...;-)
R&B :-D
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@ bbrv
We will be looking for a few *good* trolls soon.
IMO if anything is hurting the Amiga community, it is all the trolling and FUD/Misinformation spreading with regard to rival solutions by supporters.
I am in almost daily contact with poeple from outside the Amiga community, communicating about the Amiga market. One of the most important worries seems to be that the Amiga/MorphOS communities present itselves as trollnests to the outside world. You may think that the mass trolling will be in your short term advantage, but according to my personal experience this is not in the best interest of the whole Amiga community and market.
Controversy attracts attention
I believe it's better to have little positive attention, than to have massive negative attention. As you probably know already, controversy and misleading statements can just as well backfire.
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As an example
"Grass Not So Green on the other side"
...is relative to...
"Grass Is Greener on the other side
"is relative to"? Sorry to be pedantic, but this is the kind of incorrect wording that I've been referring to, the reason for misunderstanding. (And I've been an editor for close to 15 years so I know what I'm talking about.)
If you
want a bitch fight, find someone smaller than you bud.
This is just too sad and ironic to respond to.
-- gary_c
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"Grass Not So Green on the other side"
...is relative to...
"Grass Is Greener on the other side
Sorry to be pedantic, but this is the kind of incorrect wording that I've been referring to, the reason for misunderstanding. (And I've been an editor for close to 15 years so I know what I'm talking about.)
That's one weird pair of glasses you look out at the world through.
I don't think you do know what you are talking about. Lets see, you mounted an attack on me
and then when i respond you not only accuse me of being
disingenuous but say that any further defense that I might
make is disingenuous. After a bit more back and forth
you accuse me of distancing myself from the title of the topic
but not explain how you come to that conclusion. Then you
try to make out that *I* am prolonging it. Marks out of ten
for trying to shift ground - 9.
The greeness of the grass in the title should be seen as being
relative to the saying. You claim that I meant that
the grass was LESS GREEN on the MOS/PEG side than
the AOS/A1 side.
I have just pointed out to you, with teeth gritted it has to be
said that the measurement of GREEN-NESS is RELATIVE
to the SAYING ( that is is GREENER ).
Heres the logic for you:
A is said to be greater than B ( Grass is greener on the other side )
A>B
Someone sayes that A is not so green as it was ( Grass not so green on the other side )
A--
Does not break the logic statement:
A>B
What you want me to have said, for your point of view to
be valid, justified or even logically correct would be:
Grass not green on the other side
OR
Grass on other side not so green as this one
The measurement of greenness is, as I said before, measured
RELATIVE to the fact that it was seen as greener (A>B) NOT relative
to the other side ( B => A
You may or may not be an editor, you could claim whatever
your like but firstly this is not an article for a national newspaper
and secondly you could be the editor of your local parish
mag and thirdly you could basically be a pretty crap editor. It has
no bearing on the subject at hand.
If you
want a bitch fight, find someone smaller than you bud.
This is just too sad and ironic to respond to.
There is nothing ironic or sad about it.
You tried to pick a fight
with me over nothing, you have tried to continue that
against the odds, you haven't gained an inch. You are clearly
( despite your own claims ) a frustrated man and there
are easier ( and more valid ) targets out there that you could
be spending your time with.
It has now come down, according to you, to a misunderstanding. This
means that either I miscommunicated ( I don't think so ) or you
misunderstood what was being communicated ( I don't think you
do now, I think you misunderstood before and fired off a salvo
when you shouldn't and are now backpeddling ).
What do you want me to do next? Go through your posts
in this thread and show exactly how I come to that
conclusion? Or maybe you want to start reading what
you put before to try and regain some level of consistency?
Where have we come to now? I think you are a
drowning man at the far end of a flame war. I'm sure
you have an equally negative opinion of me ( in fact
your obnoxious first post puts me in no doubt ).
I no longer understand what point you are trying to
prove, and Im not sure that you do either.
Now before this degenerates further how about we do everyone
a favour and take it to email?
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@ DaveP
IMO there was nothing wrong with the title you gave to this thread. It is simply your (IMO completely non-offensive) opinion and this is an open forum afterall.
Look I even said that I dont consider myself
a reporter, or a journalist so tactics that work on
Mike Bouma do not work on me.
Any such tactic doesn't influence my way of reporting or opinion statements. My news reporting on OSNews is pretty objective according to most. Of course, I will continue to state my opinions on forums and within feature articles. IMO every good writer does this, but only combined with arguments for why one has such opinions.
The OSNews team is pretty clear with regard to this. For example you could read David Adams' (site owner) latest review (http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=2792), in which he tried to underline this.
A snip from his article: "Let me preface this review by dispensing with the ridiculous notion of an "objective" review. There is no such thing. A review is an exercise in subjectivity, otherwise it would just be a recitation of specifications."
So asking people to contact OSNews staff behind my back in order to state wild accusations or point to any bias I may have, like Bill Buck has done so recently in the past, will not change anything on OSNews.
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@MikeB
Thanks.
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You may or may not be an editor, you could claim whatever
your like
If I said I'm an editor, I'm an editor. If we can't trust each other about mundane things like that, what's the point of any of this conversation?
but firstly this is not an article for a national newspaper
and secondly you could be the editor of your local parish
mag and thirdly you could basically be a pretty crap editor. It has
no bearing on the subject at hand.
I brought up what I do because in our office we deal with clarity of expression all day every day, and if things had been stated less ambiguously in the beginning, things wouldn't have gone the way they did. My work isn't with a local parish mag or newspaper. Our clients include literally the biggest financial and industrial companies on the planet, as well as government agencies -- just to dispel the idea that we might be involved in neighborhood stuff. I suppose the fact that we're still in business (you've probably heard that Japan's economy hasn't been doing too well for the last decade or two) and that I'm still wanted there might say something about the quality of the work we/I do.
As for this thread, I stand by my original point. I don't think Genesi is squeeky clean; I don't mind pointing out or agreeing where there are problems. So I'm not desperate to try to help maintain that kind of image. But I did believe I saw something under the surface of your FYI. If I was wrong, I apologize. This really isn't worth the aggravation. Your personal attacks on me were counterproductive to any meaningful discussion, but I shoudn't have let those get under my skin. As I said early on, I don't have anything personal against you; I just thought your post was questionable. I won't post in this thread again. I'll do my best to stick to talking on the merits of arguments alone -- which I like to think I do anyway -- and hope others will do the same. Again, I'm sorry for any bad feeling I've caused.
-- gary_c
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@Gary
Do you know what. I just don't care. I don't see this
as an interesting or useful thing to debate. My eyes
have started to glaze over with total boredom
every time I think about how exactly I can explain
it in a way that you will understand or even really
listen to.
Maybe you get some kick out of bitch fights like these, I don't and Im sure the onlookers are just as bored as me, if not more.
No doubt when I post something in the future that
you take exception to there you'll be popping in with
some barely concealed abusive flamebait but my resolution will be ... hey the guy is just trying to bait
you like he did last time. If you ignore him, he'll go back to guarding the bridge.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have a cigar to smoke and
some interesting TECHNICAL subjects to go post about.
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It's obvious you're talking not to me but to some mental construction of me built out of misperceptions. I've already explained that I do not enjoy this kind of thread and the only reason I'm responding one final time (despite my statement that I wouldn't) is that it is very difficult to let the the thing end with such a warped summation.
I have no vendetta against you. I do not flame people out of spite, out of personal frustration, out of love of trolling. My previous posts bear this out. Feel free, as I said before, to indicate to me publically or privately how I have such a track record of flaming and trolling.
Believe me, I have better things to do as well. It's sad and rather telling that even after my going half way and offering an apology (twice) that you still maintain your arrogant attitude and inaccurate perceptions. This is offputting, as it is in stark contrast to my other dealings on-line and off.
No, I won't be popping in with abusive flamebait, but I'll still speak my opinion. I hope in the future you can express yours so that it not only reverberates nicely within your own head but also makes sense to those of us who only have access to your written words. But if you don't, I'll know better than to get involved.
-- gary_c
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gary thats just DaveP :) ... I've seen the anti-BBRV sentiments... nothing against ya Dave...but its obvious you dont have a middle ground opinon of Bill or Genesi in general... wether or not your post was against them it came from you...and I could care less if you call me a c**k s*cking f**khead .... I think Gary was right... flame me all ya want...
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@Gary
No, its more that you clearly don't recognise
yourself in what you say and do when the image
offends you. I don't know how you can't go back
through what you and I have written and come
to the conclusions you have.
@Mips
Grow up.