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Amiga.org specific forums => Amiga.org Discussion and Site Feedback => Topic started by: Brian Hoskins on February 03, 2004, 10:05:08 AM

Title: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Brian Hoskins on February 03, 2004, 10:05:08 AM
Amiga.org staff,

I feel that the moderation techniques of this forum site should be reviewed.  To take the recent locking of the PeggyII vs AmigaOne thread as a current example, first of all I can completely understand the reasons WHY moderators would have chosen to do something about the mud slinging that developed in that thread, however I do not agree with their solution to it.

Unfortunately, in this world wherever you go, you'll always find at least one group of idiots who want to ruin things for the rest.  It's nothing to do with the Amiga Community being bad news, you get these kinds of people wherever you go!  Now the thing is, most of us are genuine Amiga fanatics who take absolutely no interest at all in mud slinging or bickering or generally causing trouble - all we want to do is talk about the Amiga.

Locking that thread punishes the normal well behaved forum user such as myself.  I wanted to add my views to that subject, but I had no interest in fuelling the arguments or adding my own mud slinging - all I wanted to do was talk about the next generation machines.

If I were the moderator, I think my attitude would be to single out the trouble makers, and lock THEM from posting on the subject, while allowing the rest of us to get on and have a proper discussion.  I do not agree with punishing everyone for the acts of a few.

Just my thoughts on the subject, anyway.  I feel the forum would be a much better place to hang out if threads weren't being locked all of the time.

Brian
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: bloodline on February 03, 2004, 11:42:01 AM
What is wrong about starting a new thread free of all the useless "my willys bigger than you willy" crap?

Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Amiperson2K3 on February 03, 2004, 11:43:07 AM
Brian said it perfectly and does this site really need power hungry moderators?

Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Kees on February 03, 2004, 12:23:15 PM
@ Amiperson2K3

Are you suggestiong that we have those ?
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Kees on February 03, 2004, 12:26:54 PM
@ BrianJHoskins

Thanks for your input, its beeing appreciated.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Cyberus on February 03, 2004, 01:40:40 PM
Rather than blame the moderators, how about blaming the people who caused the thread to be locked? If you criticised them when they did it, and told them that they were spoiling the discussion by saying things that will get the thread locked, perhaps this would approach a level of 'user moderation'.

Now my question for the moderators is this - Can a reason please be given at the end of a thread when it is locked? Or is this not done so people don't have a go at the moderator who locked it?

Cheers
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: mikeymike on February 03, 2004, 01:55:42 PM
I just read that thread.  After the first couple/few pages, there was so little useful/accurate content that it is very unlikely that the original poster would have found it of any use.  I didn't lock it, but I would have done.

Means of moderation are limited by the software that runs the forums.  If we could make it more flexible while not losing out in other respects, we would do so.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Amiperson2K3 on February 03, 2004, 01:56:28 PM
Quote
Are you suggestiong that we have those ?


Yes that is exactly what i am suggesting. locking threads with no reasons, making threats and talking down to people. i just can not be that paranoid.

I am not putting the blame on Moderators like the person above said but it takes two to tango.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: bloodline on February 03, 2004, 02:04:26 PM
Quote

Amiperson2K3 wrote:
Quote
Are you suggestiong that we have those ?


Yes that is exactly what i am suggesting. locking threads with no reasons, making threats and talking down to people. i just can not be that paranoid.

I am not putting the blame on Moderators like the person above said but it takes two to tango.


I think you might be confunsing this site with another one that is similar... The moderation on this site is actually very good.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: on February 03, 2004, 02:55:37 PM
@BrianJHoskins

Please understand that our software leaves very little leeway in the way moderation occurs.  Once registered, we do not have the ability to "keep people from posting".  The only abilities we have in that manner are to ban the specific people from the site altogether OR to edit the actual post with "removed by moderator : reason" (which draws a LOT of criticism every time it occurs).

Banning people is not something taken lightly.  

I have already stated that we will be undergoing an accounts audit to include banning duplicate IP addresses which indicate people abusing the system.  As soon as I made that statement, all the people abusing the system started crawling out of the woodwork complaining and making excuses.

Just understand that trying to moderate this site in any fashion is a no win situation.  People bitch if we let people slide.  People bitch if we moderate things.  People bitch if we close threads.  People bitch if we let the threads go wild.

The problem isn't the moderation.  It's certain people who abuse the system and the other site members.  If you have a better way of dealing with these people, that we can actually do within the confines of our software, we're all ears.

@Amiperson2k3

When *you* run an Amiga site which has to deal with the same problems we do, then you are welcome to bitch and moan.  Until then, you're more than welcome to leave since you're obviously so unhappy.  You have seemingly done nothing since you've gotten here except express your discontent.  Why are you here if you're so obviously unhappy with the choices that we make?
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Argo on February 03, 2004, 03:12:58 PM
@ all:
Quote
OR to edit the actual post with "removed by moderator : reason" (which draws a LOT of criticism every time it occurs).


Sometimes, they just go back in and re-edit their post adding back what they origionally said and then some. There is no way to lock specfic individual  postings. I don't know of any CMS that does.
If you would like such a feature, please go to http://www.xoops.org and make a feature request.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Argo on February 03, 2004, 03:19:38 PM
Quote
If I were the moderator, I think my attitude would be to single out the trouble makers, and lock THEM from posting on the subject, while allowing the rest of us to get on and have a proper discussion. I do not agree with punishing everyone for the acts of a few.


We had a position open up, you should have applied.

Really, that thread had gone off-topic. The original post asked a question that was answered as best as it could have been. Everything after that was just off-topic one is better than the other one upmanship.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Amiperson2K3 on February 03, 2004, 03:20:40 PM
Wayne,

Why are you telling lies?. this is the first time i have ever said anything negative about this site, i am allowed to have my own opinions which at one time was allowed without attacks (especially worse coming from the site admin) but all has gone pear shaped these days.

I would really like to know why are you so hostile?, there is no need for it at all.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: lempkee on February 03, 2004, 03:23:28 PM
well i didnt know it was locked even! , but i gave up on replying once the others started to TWIST everything said , making it look like pegasos 2 was 3 times cheaper than a1 and beeing far superior etc, i posted prices here in norway (RETAIL) showing its not even half the price and so on, too much FUD in that thread and it would have needed 20 or 30 amigaone users to put out the fire 10 pegasos people posted (or non pegasos people who just "WANT TO MAKE TROUBLE".

i am sort of glad it was stopped/locked but i am not very happy about the ways everything goes atm, amigaone users normally dont even attend such threads in general as they know what will happen, its a shame as it might make people choose the wrong solution due to FUD and bias.


my opinion anyway, and i dont think moderators here are too powerhungry but i do feel that they are biased from time to time, but i understand the problem for them also but i would love to see them stepping out and showing some interest and knowledge about the AMIGA OS instead of aros and mos all the time , we all know that they know it, they are moderators and they should be uptodate on everything, hence when they see trollbait they should eithe 1. EDIT IT , 2. remove it! or 3. (the worst one really) reply to it.

sorry for the harsh words but i am pretty confident that theese are things that needs to be looked into!.

cheers
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Argo on February 03, 2004, 03:28:29 PM
Your post is just one post to you. To Wayne and the rest of the staff, it is one of many of the same. After awhile it gets kind of grating, irritating. Not that your doing something wrong, but it's like answering the same question every five minutes. It's a matter of perspective.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: bloodline on February 03, 2004, 04:24:26 PM
Quote

lempkee wrote:
well i didnt know it was locked even! , but i gave up on replying once the others started to TWIST everything said , making it look like pegasos 2 was 3 times cheaper than a1 and beeing far superior etc, i posted prices here in norway (RETAIL) showing its not even half the price and so on, too much FUD in that thread and it would have needed 20 or 30 amigaone users to put out the fire 10 pegasos people posted (or non pegasos people who just "WANT TO MAKE TROUBLE".

i am sort of glad it was stopped/locked but i am not very happy about the ways everything goes atm, amigaone users normally dont even attend such threads in general as they know what will happen, its a shame as it might make people choose the wrong solution due to FUD and bias.


my opinion anyway, and i dont think moderators here are too powerhungry but i do feel that they are biased from time to time, but i understand the problem for them also but i would love to see them stepping out and showing some interest and knowledge about the AMIGA OS instead of aros and mos all the time , we all know that they know it, they are moderators and they should be uptodate on everything, hence when they see trollbait they should eithe 1. EDIT IT , 2. remove it! or 3. (the worst one really) reply to it.

sorry for the harsh words but i am pretty confident that theese are things that needs to be looked into!.

cheers


There are plenty of AmigaOS posts!!! Certainly as many as there are MOS and AROS posts. There isn't going to be much traffic regarding OS4 yet for one reason, no users have had a chance to play with it yet.

You cannot blame the moderators for the content of this site,  you have to blame us, the users for the content, the moderators are jsut there to stop fights and keep it clean.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: TheMagicM on February 03, 2004, 04:29:25 PM
It had nothing to do with power hunger (I locked the thread)....Banning/Locking someone from AO is a last resort in my book.  The thread had gone away from just comparing two machines to mud slinging.  Sorry if you dont agree but I get tired of it.  And yes, I do keep track of people that cause problems.   Locking threads is something that I'll do more often if needed..it seems as though I watch over children arguing about who in what company said this and that about another guy in a company?  WTH is that about?  

I'm more then willing to read about comparasins between a A1 and Pegasos as long as its about hardware/software and not just plain mud slinging.


lempkee:
I posted a price on the A1 (500 or 800) compared to a Peg, but that was in no way intended as a slam etc.  So dont take it to heart :)   I just could not remember off the top of my head what the price was at the time.  

Even though I am a Peg user, slamming a A1 user will not be tolerated and vice versa.

Thanks for your feedback  Brian!  If at any time you feel as though something is not right or needs improvement, by all means, ask a moderator or post up!  :-)

Alex
-TheMagicM
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: lempkee on February 03, 2004, 04:31:59 PM
bloodline:Read my post again! , u clearly didnt get my point at all , it was AMIGA OS vs Morphos vs Aros.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: TanZyr on February 03, 2004, 04:40:34 PM
@Argo and others,

"It's a matter of perspective."

Another point of perspective, and a little reality for the "bungled and the botched", is the FACT that the ability to post on this or any other Amiga forum is a PRIVILEDGE, not your RIGHT - there IS a difference... learn it, cattle. It is at the site admin's (and moderators') pleasure alone that we're able to gather here, via software running on THEIR property, utilizing THEIR bandwidth and storage space, and discuss everything relating to the Amiga.

Remember that the next time you cry about things here, on AmigaWorld, Moobunny, ANN, etc being "unfair" in relation to your self diluted sense of "rights": it's THEIR sandbox, play by their rules or YOU don't have to play in it at all - make your own.

:destroy:

TanZyr (who appreciates being given the priviledge)
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: MarkTime on February 03, 2004, 04:47:50 PM
There has never been a web site in the entire history of the internet where moderation techniques have been used successfully to block out difficult or emotional posts, and we are left with only useful and informative posts.

And yet, we see this same mistake made repeatedly over and over again.

So then someone says 'do we need power hungry moderators.'

I know exactly why that statement is offensive to a moderator, and I don't wish to be that offensive.  Nevertheless, we have to traverse some tricky ground here...  the purpose of moderation as stated: to ensure only useful and productive  posts, has never been achieved and will never be achieved.  So what is the real purpose in moderation?  A display of power.  That is an accurate statement.

I don't have a particular issue with the moderation on this site, it seems usually to be fairly light, and not coming too often.   I don't think the moderators are power mad, they just use their power at times, in a response to the frustrations members are having about posts.  Unfortunately,  I think there is a misunderstanding amongst the membership about what moderation can and cannot do, and its the membership, constantly harassing the webmasters with complaints, that is the real problem.

Everyone, if you ever wrote a webmaster complaining that a thread was out of control --> you are the problem.

my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Hooligan_DCS on February 03, 2004, 04:55:43 PM
Quote
I just read that thread. After the first couple/few pages, there was so little useful/accurate content that it is very unlikely that the original poster would have found it of any use. I didn't lock it, but I would have done.


Why you think you can decide what is helpful for someone and what is not? If this is really your honest opinion, better quit being a moderator as you really ain't got what it takes.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Ryu on February 03, 2004, 05:10:16 PM
well if you read the thread you would see the majority of the latter postings werent answering the original question, so therefor they were off topic, so they either deserved to be removed or the thread locked... as it has already been stated removing posts always causes a lot of outcry so it was assumed better to lock the thread to stop other OT posts being made... weather or not you or anyone else things those OT replied were of any use to anyone is not the point. The reason for the locking was because the thread had become off topic... at least thats how I see things.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: lempkee on February 03, 2004, 05:19:08 PM
i agree with hooligan here.



-

anyway:
there is a reason why i never applied for moderator privi. here on amiga.org , i am too biased to be one, i have no problems stating that i am an amiga fanatic and beeing that 100%.

people who is biased shouldnt be moderators, they should be in the middle and have "experiences/interest" within all subjects and be able to stop/start a discussion or put it on the correct track again.

i never said its an easy job, but i still expect the moderators to do it properly and correct!.

or? , maybe a moderator is too high on my LIST atm , i normally read moderator's post twice or so just as i expect them to have a point in what they are saying + helpfull information and so on.

damage controll is important and we have seen VERY little at that here on amiga.org lately , we see threads where aros is forced into without any meaning, just propaganda! (infact in any threads from pc to c64) , we do see pegasos people giving fud and we do see amigaone users spilling FUD aswell and so on, this is where the moderators should know better and jump in and FIX pronto!


we recently saw a rather sad post by wayne who said that trolls where taking over the DMZ forum, well they wouldnt have done this imho if moderators where abit more "INTO it" in the whole forum/news sections etc.

another thing is the "MAKE FUN of PHOTO's" in the photo albums , when did a moderator look in thoose threads last? , there is alot of INSULTS towards amiga.inc , towards david haynie etc.

really not a funny sight for the ones its about!

i encourage everyone posting all that crap there to edit it out before moderators see it! , but i do encourage the moderators to act fast and go trough it!.

good luck and keep in mind, i do like this site but there is alot of useless things popping up all the time without moderators dooing anything about it.


cheers

ps:sorry for rant , but i am sure i DO have a point!

Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Hooligan_DCS on February 03, 2004, 05:25:21 PM
I continue this much: I have no objection that the thread under discussion was locked, nor I have anything bad to say about the moderation so far.

That comment just made me rolling eyes as I am 100% behind free speech and free thinking. And the last I want, is somebody to think and tell whats best for ME.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: lempkee on February 03, 2004, 05:34:59 PM
hooligan: indeed and this is where the line between MODERATORS and NORMAL users should be!

Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: lempkee on February 03, 2004, 05:39:19 PM
ryu:yes i know , but it wasnt off topic when i last visited it and by then your post was like 2-3 pages behind! , i just dug out the posts which i knew where fud (about price amigaone vs peg) and so on.

my point is that moderators should do what i tried to do and they should have done it much sooner, i know its hard but heh who said it was going to be easy to be an moderator? and i am pretty sure most of you moderators are busy looking after trolls in the DMZ etc.

cheers
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Ryu on February 03, 2004, 05:48:35 PM
I disagree lempkee, what you did was to become involved in the thread, something a moderator mustn't do, as soon as they do they are unable to properly moderate a thread because by then your own opinions take over....

On another note I see my names being dragged through the mud on another forum site... such is life I guess.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: mikeymike on February 03, 2004, 05:53:43 PM
Quote

Hooligan_DCS wrote:
Quote
I just read that thread. After the first couple/few pages, there was so little useful/accurate content that it is very unlikely that the original poster would have found it of any use. I didn't lock it, but I would have done.

Why you think you can decide what is helpful for someone and what is not? If this is really your honest opinion, better quit being a moderator as you really ain't got what it takes.

Yeah, thanks...

I think I can decide what is helpful for someone or not when mud is just being slung for three pages on end.  If you think that would be useful to anyone, why don't you take up moderating elsewhere and see how well your ideas on the subject do for you.  I'll continue to trust my judgement and liase with the other AO staff.

And anyway, it would hardly be the end of the world, if I locked a thread, and the original poster requested that I unlock it because they were finding the discussion useful!
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: lempkee on February 03, 2004, 06:04:42 PM
ryu:if posting the truth is getting involved , hell then i dont see why we have moderators, if i hadnt interveined then the guys who have no clue whould have belived that the pegasos was 3 times cheaper than the amigaone in retail.

and so on..

moderators should jump in and solve problems like this, as its infact damage controll , we see moderators do this on their "fields" why wont they do it on other fields?

Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Hooligan_DCS on February 03, 2004, 06:08:36 PM
Quote
Yeah, thanks...

I think I can decide what is helpful for someone or not when mud is just being slung for three pages on end. If you think that would be useful to anyone, why don't you take up moderating elsewhere and see how well your ideas on the subject do for you. I'll continue to trust my judgement and liase with the other AO staff.

And anyway, it would hardly be the end of the world, if I locked a thread, and the original poster requested that I unlock it because they were finding the discussion useful!


I am not talking about that thread so could you forget it aswell. Couldn't care less about its destiny and it was ok it got locked.

no, you really can't decide what is helpfull for me.. unless of course you are a psychic.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Ryu on February 03, 2004, 06:15:13 PM
agreed no one person can say what is and what isnt okay for another person. But one person who is in a position where they have to make educated guesses to keep the majority happy will need to assume what is best for the greater majority.

Lets not forget folks we are all human and we all make mistakes. Personally I think this is all getting spun way out of control for no real reason other than what must be misunderstandings.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: mikeymike on February 03, 2004, 06:16:26 PM
Quote
ryu:if posting the truth is getting involved , hell then i dont see why we have moderators, if i hadnt interveined then the guys who have no clue whould have belived that the pegasos was 3 times cheaper than the amigaone in retail.


Moderators get criticised (sometimes justifiably) for posting their opinion, then taxing an axe against posts/users who disagree with them.

Typically I try to stay out of threads which I feel will get silly and need moderation, even if I have an opinion that I'd like to state.  I try to stick to one or the other.  Occasionally I do get involved and state my opinion, then ask other moderators if they would mind keeping an eye on the thread (leaving the invitation open-ended as I don't want to sway their opinion as to what needs moderating).

@ everyone

(unrelated to answering lempkee's post)

If you deem it necessary to criticise a member of AO staff, please e/pmail either Kees or another moderator.  Telling someone they shouldn't/can't do their job to their face is likely to be taken offensively.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: mikeymike on February 03, 2004, 06:19:56 PM
Quote

Hooligan_DCS wrote:
Quote
Yeah, thanks...
I think I can decide what is helpful for someone or not when mud is just being slung for three pages on end. If you think that would be useful to anyone, why don't you take up moderating elsewhere and see how well your ideas on the subject do for you. I'll continue to trust my judgement and liase with the other AO staff.
And anyway, it would hardly be the end of the world, if I locked a thread, and the original poster requested that I unlock it because they were finding the discussion useful!

I am not talking about that thread so could you forget it aswell. Couldn't care less about its destiny and it was ok it got locked.
no, you really can't decide what is helpfull for me.. unless of course you are a psychic.

If you really don't think I am doing a decent job as a moderator, voice your concerns privately to another member of AO staff.  The other AO staff will discuss it, and if they feel I'm in the wrong, I'll leave.  Or you could just leave.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: lempkee on February 03, 2004, 06:25:16 PM
yeah now i feel like the black cat...


thanks for that.

anyway all i where saying is that moderators should post facts / links in such cases and tell the poster who where fudding to check his sources.

nah but what the hell i am just a troll..

anyway i never aimed anything towards individuals with this, maybe that was a bad thing but i like to tell them over pm if they went over the line etc, i am just sick and tired of hearing about trolls (obviously i am one ;( ) destroying this forum/site , and i just pointed out what the moderators should do to fix it, i didnt tell them to jump in and type PERSONAL stuff, just a link or reference or maybe even a quote.

i am outta this thread.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Brian Hoskins on February 03, 2004, 06:32:20 PM
Thanks for the replies everyone.

Firstly, I am not blaming moderators for the trouble that develops in some threads.  Moderation isn't the cause of trouble, it is the result of trouble.

I agree that the locked thread in question HAD gone completley off topic, leaving only mud slinging and bickering.  But the frustrating thing is, I wasn't interested in the silly mud slinging and bickering - I actually wanted to contribute to the original discussion.  To all who participate in this kind of sillyness, all I'll say to you is please stop - it ruins things for the rest of us.  If someone starts trying to bait you with a snide comment, just ignore them.  If troll-posts were ignored, they'd never have the chance to grow in the first place.

I was unaware that moderation techniques were limited by the software used to run the website.  It'd be great if the trouble makers could be singled out instead, it's a pity that.  Maybe a warning should be issued to people who persistently cause problems because these kinds of things ruin it all for the rest of us.

Thanks again

Brian
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: mikeymike on February 03, 2004, 06:34:54 PM
Quote
anyway all i where saying is that moderators should post facts / links in such cases and tell the poster who where fudding to check his sources.

Anyone can make mistakes though.  A moderator accusing a poster of lying would look like a biased moderator, not a moderator who's made an honest mistake.  Or the original poster might have made an honest mistake.  I have my personal opinions on what the angles were in that thread, but I can't and shouldn't say what they were.  Bear in mind also that I read that thread in hindsight, I'm not sure how I missed it TBH.

Quote
nah but what the hell i am just a troll..

To my knowledge you haven't trolled before, and I'm interested in your opinion.

While I disagree with it :-)

And really when I made my "@ everyone, unrelated to replying to lempkee" comment, that really wasn't aimed at you in the slightest!
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Hooligan_DCS on February 03, 2004, 06:36:51 PM
Quote
If you really don't think I am doing a decent job as a moderator, voice your concerns privately to another member of AO staff. The other AO staff will discuss it, and if they feel I'm in the wrong, I'll leave.


Please can you quote me saying you weren't doing a decent job as a moderator?

Also I said in this very thread I have nothing against how moderation has been handled here. Locking up the thread was an ok thing to do.
The ONLY thing bothering me is your attitude about this,  as I explained before.

Quote
Or you could just leave


That I will do when I see fit.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: TheMagicM on February 03, 2004, 06:41:28 PM
Quote
It'd be great if the trouble makers could be singled out instead, it's a pity that. Maybe a warning should be issued to people who persistently cause problems because these kinds of things ruin it all for the rest of us.


You are correct..that would be good.   Another site (car enthusiast) site I post on, is moderated more strictly.  Sending Pmails to offenders will be a start, locking them out will be another option.    I'm just a very tolerant individual and I believe it gets the best of me as I've never locked a thread until now nor issued warnings.  Well, its in the best interest of YOU the user for me to do so.  Might make me quite unpopular, but hey, thats what I'm here for!

-Alex
TheMagicM
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: lempkee on February 03, 2004, 07:01:11 PM
mikeymike: i had to get back in here and do another post as i noticed one thing that havent seen before .

"the lying part" , honest to god i doubt there is many around who do that on purpose , and as someone allready posted earlier, people do make mistakes and sometimes severe ones! , mostly this happen in so called "Vs" threads or infact even in emu threads but i dont jump in and say its a lie, i just try to point them back and i know i am abit rough in my posts sometimes but thats mostly because of my english + sometimes my head is on fire.

also as an direct answer to your last post here,

[/quote] Anyone can make mistakes though. A moderator accusing a poster of lying would look like a biased moderator, not a moderator who's made an honest mistake. Or the original poster might have made an honest mistake. I have my personal opinions on what the angles were in that thread, but I can't and shouldn't say what they were. Bear in mind also that I read that thread in hindsight, I'm not sure how I missed it TBH.
[/quote]

we all do make mistakes, i dont know everything and sometimes i feel i am forced to intervien to guide the guy who has a question or one who said something i dissagre with so i try to atleast point him to facts about the topic.

since i am not a moderator (and i am too biased to be one , and thats MY own opinion)
and seeing that the moderators who knows this actually (or should in my opinion) doesnt intervien with the actual thread/topic makes me look like an question mark.


i think (honestly) that i have misunderstood the whole "moderator" ranking , but note one thing and its surely something you guys know allready, posters with "HUGE" postcounts and / or a moderator label is infact the posts i (+others) check out closely, and by that i dont mean i look for "bad things or errors etc" , its just normal to seek the highest rated user in many occasions!

anyway as i said earlier , i pm the ones trolling and ask them to either stop or explain whats going on , and sometimes i do it in the threads (if its a hot topic) .

cheers

ps:its damn hard to be unbiased in the amiga community theese days, either ur a uae , amithlon, classic , amigaos4 , morphos or aros lover , everyone thinks its funny (it seems) to jump in and write "What i like the most" in every thread there is an option to do so, imho thats the most annoying feature with our community atm.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: seer on February 03, 2004, 07:05:52 PM
Hmm.. People, a site like amiga.org has to cater (sp?) for several different minded people; they have to moderate in the interest of the common good, not just 1 poster (IE the original poster of a certain thread).. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one; or the few. With 3 "factions" all on the same forum this is really difficult.

As for if it is a moderators job for telling user's you're wrong and supply them with links. AFAIK, they are not paid to do this, I doubt they would find the time to hunt around for these links.. Similar as like Wayne stated before; "We don't have time to search for news every hour, we need you to post the news.."

Lots of people her complain about the moderation level at Amigaworld, but as most people agree it is for Amiga OS4 or the classic machines mainly, AROS and MOS aren't important to most of them..

Maybe a "report this post" button can be implemented, tho I feel that's more like a "mommy mommy, those men aren't playing nice" type off button...

LAstly, I do believe a lot of misunderstanding can be avoided if when a threat is locked the moderator who does that also leaves a message of why it is locked, even if it is obvious..
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: restore2003 on February 03, 2004, 07:06:19 PM
This may sound drastic, but how about MorphOS/Peg as a new forum category? Would solve many issues wouldnt it?  
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: bloodline on February 03, 2004, 07:08:27 PM
Girls, Girls!!! Please don't fight!

Tempers are running high. Think before you post!
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: on February 03, 2004, 07:22:57 PM
Allow me to point out the following;

http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1075822379&category=rant&number=28#comment
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: lempkee on February 03, 2004, 07:33:15 PM
i never said moderating was an easy job nor thing and i never said they got paid for it, i just say what i EXPECT them to do to reduce trolling and fud, we all know wayne has been rather annoyied about it and so on.

was just a tip.

put it like this, i do it now when i am a normal non moderator, but i only do it for what interests me and my people (biased in other words) , but as a single person vs hundreds is not really fun, i am not mad because of the thread beeing closed, i didnt even notice tbh!

wayne:ps , i dont go to ann.lu unless i am guided by others , i had to do this a few days ago because some lamer posed as me on there. (have no idea for how long its been going on)
but yes i looked at your post and heh i was here when that guy posted his requests also, it was rather funny and lame (of him)

cheers
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: on February 03, 2004, 07:41:12 PM
@lempkee,

Moderating is not an easy job.  If this were the Amiga community of 9, even 5 years ago, it wouldn't even be necessary.   Moderation in this bitter community has unfortunately become a necessary evil.  There are simply those amongst us who have begun to believe that this site (and others) are theirs to abuse at will.  This is running off the intelligent and helpful posters.

As I said in another thread, something has to be done, even if it's closing the Talk About forum.  I'm still open to realistic suggestions.

Wayne
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: seer on February 03, 2004, 07:43:40 PM
i never said moderating was an easy job nor thing and i never said they got paid for it, i just say what i EXPECT them to do to reduce trolling and fud, we all know wayne has been rather annoyied about it and so on.

Hee Lempkee,  I wasn't really targetting you there, tho you did mak me think up that peace I wrote.. ;-)

No harm ment.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Minuous on February 03, 2004, 08:10:55 PM
Edit by Kees - Personal attack
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: AccyD on February 03, 2004, 08:18:08 PM
Quote

Wayne wrote:
Moderating is not an easy job.  


I'm sure it is  :-D No honestly, the moderation I have seen on the site here, seems to be 1st class, striking the right balance is always hard and will never be achieved ("Can't please all of the people all of the time") but the comments made earlier (specifically by MikeyMike) showing that potential bias is avoided as much as possible which is the only thing you can ask of a good moderater.

Quote

Wayne wrote:
something has to be done, even if it's closing the Talk About forum


Firstly, please don't this provides a good talking point and normally allows a good flow of ideas and friendly debates/arguments to develop as an aside from the Amiga discussions.

Secondly, hopefully this post (and others like it) will have given posters a "shot across the bows" and should act as a warning to future abusers and hopefully resolve the problem organically.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Amiperson2K3 on February 03, 2004, 08:24:34 PM
The thread on Ann was not started by me or has anything to do with me. i suggest (as this is afaik a   suggestions and feedback forum) people find something better to do in thier lifes than pointing fingers and making wild accusations.

Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: bloodline on February 03, 2004, 08:34:20 PM
Quote

Amiperson2K3 wrote:
The thread on Ann was not started by me or has anything to do with me. i suggest (as this is afaik a   suggestions and feedback forum) people find something better to do in thier lifes than pointing fingers and making wild accusations.



That's good to know, and I agree with you.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: on February 03, 2004, 09:07:26 PM
I would be happy if people would just grow up a bit.  

If you aren't responsible for the original thread, then I apologize for taking it out on you specifically, but I'm REALLY sick of putting in all this work for the amount of crap I'm getting in return.  I have no idea who the original thread poster is, but it has to be someone who has been banned.  As such, the thread isn't worth continuing, but the fact remains the same.

No one is holding anyone here at gunpoint.  If they don't like it here, they're welcome to leave.  This site will continue, regardless of the input of anonymous cowards and multiply accounted trolls.  The only thing they do is to increase our resolve to keep going.

Wayne
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: bloodline on February 03, 2004, 09:15:18 PM
Quote
The only thing they do is to increase our resolve to keep going.


Well that's good to know :-)
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Brian Hoskins on February 03, 2004, 10:25:04 PM
With regard to the recent Amiga.org flame post on Ann which links to this particular thread, I'd like to say that this thread was started by me and intended to be a constructive outlook on moderation techniques, NOT an excuse to start a war.

I would recommend that the Ann post be ignored by us all, since the person who posted there has obviously (purposely?) misunderstood this thread completley.

Brian
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: on February 03, 2004, 10:46:54 PM
Hi Brian,

I don't think I misunderstood your intent with starting the thread.  Granted, I have become very touchy over the continual criticism but there are factors in my real life which are contributing to the mounting intolerance.  It hasn't been -- to me -- personal.

The person who started the thread on ANN was apparently someone who was banned who is simply using your comments here as a catalyst to beat up on me and the site.  

Nothing new.  Just demonstrates the childishness of some people in this community.  "Kick and scream" until their toys get taken away (they get banned), the "cry and scream" every time they get a chance.

Wayne
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Argo on February 04, 2004, 12:07:26 AM
Ryu: Congrats! You are now a full fledges AO Moderator. Welcome to the Club.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Argo on February 04, 2004, 12:10:29 AM
If a topic gets locked, nothing is stoping anyone from starting a new one. Just hope something is learned from the previous topic.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Ryu on February 04, 2004, 12:53:28 AM
hehe, so I need to be bashed by several users and DoS'ed  before I am a fully fledged moderator... well if I knew that before I applied I might never of bothered... ;-)
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: mikeymike on February 04, 2004, 12:59:29 AM
Ryu, what's your IP again... 127.0.0.1?

Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Argo on February 04, 2004, 01:19:47 AM
Every group has there own hazing ritual.  :-D
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Acill on February 04, 2004, 03:14:50 AM
Well there isnt much they can do other then lock the thread to stop the bashing. The problem is so many of us are so attached to our systems. Some of the people take it a bit to far I agree. Its a shame those that do cant keep the stupid feelings they have and not lash at out others.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Damion on February 04, 2004, 09:18:29 AM
My comments about this...

I understand why the thread was locked, and I really don't think it's a big deal...but on the other hand, there
was some useful discussion present, and considering the subject matter, I think it was actually pretty mild...


MarkTime wrote:

Quote

I don't have a particular issue with the moderation on this site, it seems usually to be fairly light, and not coming too
often. I don't think the moderators are power mad, they just use their power at times, in a response to the frustrations
members are having about posts. Unfortunately, I think there is a misunderstanding amongst the membership about what
moderation can and cannot do, and its the membership, constantly harassing the webmasters with complaints, that is the
real problem.

Everyone, if you ever wrote a webmaster complaining that a thread was out of control --> you are the problem.


I agree with this sentiment 100%. I can't count how many times in life that I've witnessed either
myself, or others, get shafted by the crybabies...and I'm not really complaining about it, but it IS
annoying. It reminds me of the old ladies who used to sit in the front row of church when I was a
kid...they made as much trouble for everyone else as they possibly could, probably becasue they
couldn't stand the thought of their own miserable existances long enough to actually DO something
about them.


mikeymike wrote:

Quote

I just read that thread. After the first couple/few pages, there was so little useful/accurate content that it is very
 unlikely that the original poster would have found it of any use. I didn't lock it, but I would have done.


IMO there's rarely an "accurate" path to ANYTHING...I expect to wade through some BS, or even
outright idiocy, in pretty much any forum - but it's up to the reader to (hopefully) posess the capacities
which discern what is and isn't useful, *for themselves*. Even if I don't agree, or find it redundant/troubling,
it's still part of the collective "stew"...and it may contain something helpful for others.

In fact, I think that's part of what makes amiga.org such a valuable discussion bed within the community.
People can basically present all their different viewpoints, and maybe something is gained in the process...or
maybe not...but personally, I like having the ability to sift through the "subjectionals". It keeps me a little
more balanced. ;) Yes, some of them are annoying and stupid (some may find 'MY' comments annoying and
stupid), but do we really have to be that fragile about everything...??

I really do think all of the staff here is doing an excellent job. I'm not a moderator, and I'm not envious of
those who are...it's a tough, respectable task, especially considering the "volatility" of personality conflicts
within this community.

Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: ikir on February 04, 2004, 11:59:44 AM
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: bloodline on February 04, 2004, 12:10:32 PM
Quote
Probably this is your opinion because you have trolled several time, with more account on this "another one that is similiar".


There are plenty of similar sites to A.org it uses Xoops which is very popular. you are not trying to suggest there is a particualar site that has a Moderator problem are you?
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Targhan on February 04, 2004, 05:41:56 PM
I run one of those Xoops based sites.  I used to help out here as well.  Through my experiences, AO is a giant melting pot of the entire, extended, community, and moderation is a necissary evil.

Not OS4 specific, not MorphOS, AROS, Amithlon, UAE, or even "native Amiga" specific.  AO is all of the above, and there will be disagreements, flames, arguements, and those wanting to troll one group or another.

People have feelings, we aren't automatically generated by the server when logged in.  Each of us have the capacity to become angry when we feel slighted, abused, or other not-so-nice things occur. In my opinion the act of moderation is done simply to protect the integrity of the site for the greatest number of people who use it.  (Removal of pornographic pictures in threads, foul language, topics that go so far out that there is no "save" for the thread, etc.)

From all I've seen the site moderators have been improving over the last several months.  besides, the original thread under discussion here is a touchy topic, and I can certainly understand a moderator having their finger on the trigger - so to speak. Anyway, moderation is required to help kind of keep things under control when there are groups with clashing intrests, and not just Red&Blue either.


Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Wain on February 04, 2004, 08:41:59 PM
WOW!!!  If all of Amiga.org isn't just a huge pile of self-righteousness this week!

Okay look, here's the deal.  Nobody thinks anybody else is stupid, nobody is going out of their way to offend anyone else, and on the rare occasion that someone is we get to see "removed by ...... - personal attack"  as you will see earlier in this thread.

I think the moderation on this site is wonderful.  The moderators allow threads to go off-topic if they don't get out of hand, and they're very good at pulling the reins in when things do get too touchy.

So a thread got locked because people were bickering...WHO CARES???

If there's some VITAL piece of information that you just have to contribute, THEN START ANOTHER THREAD.  It's not hard, you see that little button at the top of the message section that says "Post New Topic"???? Click it and post a new topic!

This new thread,  just like the one before it, will be allowed to continue peacefully by moderators unless it breaks down into another bitch session, which hopefully won't happen because it has now been made obvious that this is unacceptable behavior.  

If it does happen, and is started again by the same people, I trust that the moderators here will move on to issuing personal warnings to those particular people.

It's not like someone locked the thread immediately after someone gave the specs of a Pegasos or AmigaOne, and gave a reason of "the other machine is crap and this discussion doesn't need to continue"

Geez people, get off your high-horses already!  Not only are you dealing with a seriously fragmented community of computer users, all who have their own choices and opinions regarding software and hardware, but it's also an international community, comprised of completely different societies and rules of etiquette.

A moderator has EVERY right to close a thread whenever they see fit.  We have several moderators for a reason; in order to stop the others from intentionally, or unintentionally abusing their power.

If you feel that you are being unfairly persecuted by a moderator, perhaps you should have someone else you know take a look at your posts to give you an honest opinion, particularly if you're not posting in your native tongue, it's possible something was just written, implied, or inferred wrongly, it's also possible that your an arrogant prick who needs to learn to check your ego in at the door, get someone you trust to take a look and see what they think.

Most importantly PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T FORGET, that in a horribly fragmented, international community, there are BOUND to be mix-ups, and misunderstandings, don't jump up and down screaming at a moderator(or anyone else for that matter) "I'M RIGHT!! I'M RIGHT!!" without at least bothering to message someone for some clarification.  

The reason I like this site is because nobody's really out to get anybody else except for the possibility of several of us being out to get DommMaster!  :-D
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: cecilia on February 04, 2004, 09:10:45 PM
Quote

Wayne wrote:
Allow me to point out the following;

http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1075822379&category=rant&number=28#comment


this is the funnist thing "Billsey" (assuming it was the real Billsey) has ever posted:

"I was a regular on Amiga.org but was attacked by moderators because i was in their terms a "Religious scumbag" who should stop being christian or get banned. i asked why i am being treated badly but the only reply i got said "if you do not like the site just f--k off bible boy)."

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Coder on February 04, 2004, 09:25:56 PM
Hi,

Let's face it, there are some people out there that are only out to
troll/destroy. And indeed sometimes you want to post your honest and
troll-free opinion in that thread but it is locked. Then you can open
a new thread and indeed those same people might turn up there also. Or
it gets viewed as, oh no they go on again. Or it is locked just to
stop there. Yes, the bad guys mess it up for the good guys.

Here's a tip for free, if you don't agree on something take it up with
a moderator or Wayne/Kees. Don't spill it in the open. That already
makes a "patch things up moment" impossible. We all make mistakes, the
users and the moderators. Right?

Coder

Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: mdwh2 on February 04, 2004, 10:27:06 PM
Quote

mikeymike wrote:
I just read that thread.  After the first couple/few pages, there was so little useful/accurate content that it is very unlikely that the original poster would have found it of any use.  I didn't lock it, but I would have done.
So because you guessed that one person might find it of little use, you'd decide you'd stop it for everyone? Whatever happened to not reading threads which don't interest you?

We have to look at *why* things such as arguments or going off-topic cause a problem. One problem that I can see is that it means the original topic may be lost in the noise, if people might still want to discuss it - but hang on, if the thread's locked, then no one can post on the original topic at all!

The only other reasoning I can see is that people don't want apparentely pointless threads clogging up the thread index - so my suggestion would be to move the thread to another forum perhaps? Maybe Talk About, or perhaps there should be a forum for any topic which might be deemed as pointless by the moderators, but people clearly still want to discuss.

Are there other problems that I have missed?
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: mdwh2 on February 04, 2004, 10:30:57 PM
Quote

mikeymike wrote:
I think I can decide what is helpful for someone or not when mud is just being slung for three pages on end.
Except you evidently can't always do this successfully, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

Quote
If you think that would be useful to anyone, why don't you take up moderating elsewhere and see how well your ideas on the subject do for you.  I'll continue to trust my judgement and liase with the other AO staff.
The point isn't that moderators are expected to know magically which threads are useful, and which should be locked - the whole argument is that threads *shouldn't* be locked (or at least, only if there are issues of legality, say, but that's not in issue here).

Quote
And anyway, it would hardly be the end of the world, if I locked a thread, and the original poster requested that I unlock it because they were finding the discussion useful!
And if a thread participant requested also?
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: mdwh2 on February 04, 2004, 10:33:40 PM
Quote

Argo wrote:
If a topic gets locked, nothing is stoping anyone from starting a new one. Just hope something is learned from the previous topic.
I'm glad to see this said - in the past, I've wanted to reply to some point in a locked thread I've been following, and unsure whether I'd get jumped on for starting it in a new thread.

However, surely this gives the problem that a locked thread could end up multiplying in several new threads (I saw this happen once), which surely clogs up things more so, and wouldn't it be better to keep it to a single thread? Oh well, I don't really mind as long as we can continue the discussion in a new thread, but was just a thought.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: SlimJim on February 04, 2004, 10:33:51 PM
Quote
this is the funnist thing "Billsey" (assuming it was the real Billsey) has ever posted:

"I was a regular on Amiga.org but was attacked by moderators because i was in their terms a "Religious scumbag" who should stop being christian or get banned. i asked why i am being treated badly but the only reply i got said "if you do not like the site just f--k off bible boy)."


It was not Billsey, according to himself (and I don't think
he's the guy who sneak around with what he believes in ;-)).
 
Not that I agree with the man's (in my view) rather extreme
beliefs, but impresonating him like that on ANN was low.
Plenty of others, e.g. Wilse was impersonated in the same
thread.
.
SlimJim (sorry for being OT)
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: cavador on February 05, 2004, 10:52:19 AM
I think moderaters should be elected by a form of
voting system toensure they do not become entrusted with too much power.
When they wish to block a thread then they have to seek permission from an elected moderator who is head of all other moderators (sort of a Prime Minister) :-P
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Framiga on February 05, 2004, 11:09:51 AM
Hi all,

i wish to remind, that the same moderator had locked, time ago  the "Cyberstorm sent to DCE . . ." thread and only thanks to Kees it was reopened. . . . .why?

Ciao

 
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: mikeymike on February 05, 2004, 11:18:54 AM
Quote
i wish to remind, that the same moderator had locked, time ago the "Cyberstorm sent to DCE . . ." thread and only thanks to Kees it was reopened. . . . .why?


Ok, now I'm really getting mad.  Will you boneheads ever read what I write?  The only reason why you might think it was me was because I wrote "I didn't lock it but I would have done" in this thread!

Locking the cyberstorm thread was a mistake on my part, I freely admit that.  What is less likely however, framiga, is that you'll admit you were well out of order when you accused me of trolling on the recent OS4 screenshot news thread!

And if you won't admit you're wrong, kindly stop sniping here.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Kees on February 05, 2004, 11:27:10 AM
@ framiga

You are really getting on my nerves here. You insult a moderator for such a small little thing ?

Its time to grow up !

Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: blobrana on February 05, 2004, 11:27:45 AM
Well put Wain.
A perception that we should all have, (er, try to strive for)...

As it is the mods do a decent job (imho) and this is reflected on the site itself.
It may throw a wobbler from time to time, but generally this is the place to get the best info/help/conversation...

Anyway tnx (in advance) ;)
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Framiga on February 05, 2004, 11:56:03 AM
Quote
by Kees on 2004/2/5 12:27:10

@ framiga

You are really getting on my nerves here. You insult a moderator for such a small little thing ?

Its time to grow up !


as already said in the past, i've absolutely nothing against you, Kees.

About those ". . . .for such a small little thing " i would like to inform you, that those thread was (no more ATM) usefull for some of the involved user in the matter.

. . .and last, about your "Grow up" statement . . .  .don't worry . . . .it "grows up" when necessary :-)

Ciao

Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: Kees on February 05, 2004, 12:37:01 PM
You need to understand that you cannot come to our website and insult any of the staff.

Consider yourself warned.
Title: Re: Forum Moderation Techniques
Post by: cecilia on February 05, 2004, 06:44:37 PM
Quote

SlimJim wrote:
It was not Billsey, according to himself (and I don't think he's the guy who sneak around with what he believes in ;-)).  
i agree and it was one of the reasons i doubted it was really him. i just meant in a long thread of unrelenting stupidity, this silly post made me laugh. mostly because it was SO absurd!
 
Quote
Not that I agree with the man's (in my view) rather extreme beliefs, but impresonating him like that on ANN was low.
Plenty of others, e.g. Wilse was impersonated in the same thread.
yes, i noticed that whole thread was full of imposters. and it's one of the things i find so stupid and boring about most of the problem sites. what i want is either useful information or clever banter.
and "trolls" offer none. just stupid boring nonsense.
as i said in another thread these people are attention whores and want to be talked about. the best way for us (non-moderators) to deal with them is to ignore them.
honestly, it really does work.