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Operating System Specific Discussions => Other Operating Systems => Topic started by: Amiduffer on November 22, 2010, 09:10:41 PM

Title: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Amiduffer on November 22, 2010, 09:10:41 PM
I had some trepidation about starting a topic like this, knowing you guys, but, its amusing in a way to see how little fighting over computers has changed.

I had posted a joking comment on a YouTube video which was comparing the more worthless eye candy features of Ubuntu and Windows7, suggesting that the title should reflect that fact, since for a more practical user of both like me, it wasn't a very useful video, at least as far as a real comparison would have been.

Needless to say, the attacks on me by the Windows fanboys is very nasty (big surprise). For all its shortcomings, I have to say that Ubuntu has given me MUCH less aggravation than Windows. I totally missed the whole Amiga/Atari flame war, but, this little episode reminds me of what folks have talked about, describing that time. 8-)
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: save2600 on November 22, 2010, 09:18:04 PM
Windows and Ubuntu... what are those? Are missionaries teaching some African tribe how to place Windows in their huts or something? :lol:
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: TheGoose on November 22, 2010, 09:47:37 PM
I didn't know there were any Windows fan boys, ever. I do like me Xubuntu ghetto laptop gotta say. I run the whole LAMP lot on it and works really nice. I never open a shell, and don't know how it works or care. Kinda like windows.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Kesa on November 22, 2010, 11:33:28 PM
There are Windows fanboys. They are people who don't care about computers and expect computers to act in a certain way.

For example my girlfriend Dannelle choosing not to use the available Apple Imacs at the university library and instead choosing a Dell pc with Windows xp. She did this because she wanted to use a 'normal' computer.
These are the Windows fanboys/girls.   (http://images.quebles.com/hotmail/emoticons/1511766.GIF)
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: tone007 on November 22, 2010, 11:54:51 PM
That's not being a fanboy, that's using what you're familiar with because it's the quickest way to get something done.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: kedawa on November 23, 2010, 12:21:16 AM
I can't imagine being that dependent on a single OS.  They're all so similar nowadays that that if you can use one, you can use them all.  Double-clicking the firefox icon does the same thing on all of them. ;)
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Kesa on November 23, 2010, 12:38:05 AM
Quote from: tone007;593653
That's not being a fanboy, that's using what you're familiar with because it's the quickest way to get something done.

LOL. I guess what i was trying to say was that the definition for a fanboy of Windows would be different for everything else such as Apple, Linux, Amiga etc. Windows is a generic product whereas the others are not.

I think it's possible to be a fanboy of Windows but the definition of it would different from the others. At least that's how i see it.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Arkhan on November 23, 2010, 01:02:07 AM
Quote from: Kesa;593660
LOL. I guess what i was trying to say was that the definition for a fanboy of Windows would be different for everything else such as Apple, Linux, Amiga etc. Windows is a generic product whereas the others are not.


Right, the definition of a Windows fanboy doesn't include being a pretentious asshole, or clinging to 25 year old hardware for dear life while leaking denial all over the place.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Kesa on November 23, 2010, 02:09:57 AM
Did you just call me an arsehole? LOL
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Arkhan on November 23, 2010, 02:27:29 AM
Quote from: Kesa;593686
Did you just call me an arsehole? LOL


if I did, it wasnt on purpose.

I dont know what computer nonsense you align yourself with.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: persia on November 23, 2010, 03:10:37 AM
I made Linux look a bit like a Mac, it was cool.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Amiduffer on November 23, 2010, 03:13:35 AM
Quote from: save2600;593620
Windows and Ubuntu... what are those? Are missionaries teaching some African tribe how to place Windows in their huts or something?


:lol:

http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments=1&v=-6uFxxlKa4g

There's the thread, if you care to watch the "debate".

Quote
And I helped countless people to delete Ubuntu off their HDD cause they don't need it. Hahahhahah


Quote
Microsoft employee, eh?


Quote
Please try to explain why Lenucks has been stuck at the 1% market share mark for the past 2 decades. No Lenucks fanboi has been able to give a logical explanation to this question, seeing how Lenucks is FUCKING FREE??

And yet, I have the answer, a simple one word: SUCKS
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Arkhan on November 23, 2010, 03:37:24 AM
Who is typing "lenucks"

I vote that dumbass get tied to a tree and shot repeatedly.

hes like the guy that says Windoze.   christ.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Iggy on November 23, 2010, 03:43:06 AM
Quote from: Arkhan;593711
Who is typing "lenucks"

I vote that dumbass get tied to a tree and shot repeatedly.

hes like the guy that says Windoze.   christ.


Well after being called an asshole, at least you've tempered that with a statement I can whole heartedly agree with.
Use of the term 'Windoze' or 'lenucks' is definately grounds for summary execution.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Arkhan on November 23, 2010, 04:01:25 AM
Quote from: Iggy;593713
Well after being called an asshole, at least you've tempered that with a statement I can whole heartedly agree with.
Use of the term 'Windoze' or 'lenucks' is definately grounds for summary execution.


im pretty platform agnostic.

though macs are overpriced and annoying, and Linux takes simple things and makes them hard on purpose I think.


If I didn't need a few things Linux lacks a nice alternative to, I'd be on Linux most likely.

and if it ran FF14...
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Iggy on November 23, 2010, 04:12:03 AM
I'm evenly split between MorphOS and Ubuntu. So I guess I'm not completely absorbed with 20 year old equipment.
If you can't use it for everyday applications, In can't see the point in it.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: kedawa on November 23, 2010, 04:26:12 AM
I can't see the point of 99% of the shit people do with their computers.
As far as I'm concerned, using an old Amiga to play games and be creative is far more worthwhile than what the average joe does with his PC, i.e. porn and facebook
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Arkhan on November 23, 2010, 04:43:39 AM
Quote from: kedawa;593718
I can't see the point of 99% of the shit people do with their computers.
As far as I'm concerned, using an old Amiga to play games and be creative is far more worthwhile than what the average joe does with his PC, i.e. porn and facebook

there are games on facebook, and some porn is pretty creative.

be quiet.

oh and porn has been around since the C64 days.  Quit being a bigot.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Kesa on November 23, 2010, 06:24:26 AM
I know why Linux hasn't gained mainstream popularity with the normal consumer. And i know why it never will.

It's because it doesn't cost anything. People associate a higher cost to higher quality. Because Windows 7 Ultimate has a price tag of A$268 the normal consumer will identify this as superior in quality than, say, Linux which is completely free.

Also lack of advertising from a major corporation like Microsoft means Linux has no awareness to the normal consumer.

Basic micro-economics     (http://gfx1.hotmail.com/mail/w4/pr04/ltr/emo/nerd_smile.gif)
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: runequester on November 23, 2010, 07:06:02 AM
Quote from: Kesa;593743
I know why Linux hasn't gained mainstream popularity with the normal consumer. And i know why it never will.

It's because it doesn't cost anything. People associate a higher cost to higher quality. Because Windows 7 Ultimate has a price tag of A$268 the normal consumer will identify this as superior in quality than, say, Linux which is completely free.

Also lack of advertising from a major corporation like Microsoft means Linux has no awareness to the normal consumer.

Basic micro-economics     (http://gfx1.hotmail.com/mail/w4/pr04/ltr/emo/nerd_smile.gif)


A very large share of servers run linux (including amiga.org according to netcraft)

The US department of defense and several other gov agencies across the world run linux

The vast vast majority of the worlds super computers run linux

The embedded market is heavily linux

Cell phones? 160.000 android phones a day, running the linux kernel

Giant corporations like HP, IBM and Google ? All pushing linux as core businesses



The idea that there is a battle, or that its somehow about desktop computers is one that Microsoft wants to peddle, so they can look like they are still relevant in today's electronics market.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: kedawa on November 23, 2010, 07:19:03 AM
There's also the simple fact that most people who actually make a living coding for and contributing to Linux aren't in it for the desktop market.
It's all kind of moot anyway.  I don't think the consumer desktop PC is long for this world.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: fishy_fiz on November 23, 2010, 07:54:00 AM
Personally I couldnt really care less. People will use what theyre confortable with and/or enjoy and good luck to them for that. Surely an amiga based site and it's people understand that ? As for why Windows is so dominant, there's plenty of reasons. Firstly (besides marketting) it's software. As good as some open source software has become, for the most part it's inferior to dedicated commercial efforts (with obvious reason). Also, exposure. Windows is everywhere. You can go into a shop and buy software for it. Without this sort of every day exposure something will seem "strange" to people. Also, and Im sure long time linux users might disagree as they've by now learned how it works, but Linux simply isnt as friendly, even the more popular distros arent as easy to get your head around as Windows. Honsetly I think something like AROS has more chance in the future to gain mainstream users (although I doubt that'll happen still), Linux is typically just too cumbersome. Where's all the big name games for Linux. Resident Evils, Silent Hill, FInal Fantasy, etc, etc. ?   Yes Im aware that Linux gaming is a little bigger than it once was, and through WINE a lot of software can run (typically with somewhat inferior performance to on Windows), but Joe Public doesnt care to have to tweak/update thier system, so again it falls into the "weird" category for them, and they'd prefer a "normal" machine.

And yes, Im aware that many of these shortcomings of Linux can be redeemed, but people want something that works out of the box and makes sense to them without having to learn.

At the end of the day I'll just use the right tool/system for the right job. I have no allegiance to anything but myself and my interests/needs/budget. Having said that it's as clear as the nose on my face as to why Linux hasnt taken off on the desktop (a lot of the mainstream users who use it do so because of computer enthusiast friends/family talking them into it).

As for desktops being on thier way out,... what a crock. Netbook/laptop sales have dropped recently due to saturation, and for many things a desktop machine with a larger screen, nice sound system, more powerful hardware, etc. is by far the best experience. The format itself is simply more practical a lot of the time.

Anyway, each to thier own, and I couldnt care less if complete strangers use Windows, Linux, Mac OSX, or GeOS. The only OS users I care much about are amiga based os users, as the more there are the better the experience (new users brings new developers and also more people for me to inflict my own software upon :)).
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Kesa on November 23, 2010, 07:56:52 AM
Quote from: kedawa;593751
There's also the simple fact that most people who actually make a living coding for and contributing to Linux aren't in it for the desktop market.
It's all kind of moot anyway.  I don't think the consumer desktop PC is long for this world.

I disagree. There will always be desktop pcs. They are as cheap as hell and i can't think of anything that is cheaper. As long as they are the cheapest form of pc they will exist.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: runequester on November 23, 2010, 08:09:36 AM
Quote from: fishy_fiz;593757
Personally I couldnt really care less. People will use what theyre confortable with and/or enjoy and good luck to them for that. Surely an amiga based site and it's people understand that ? As for why Windows is so dominant, there's plenty of reasons. Firstly (besides marketting) it's software. As good as some open source software has become, for the most part it's inferior to dedicated commercial efforts (with obvious reason).

Firefox, Google Chrome (combined 43% of market share) and Apache (58% of server market) seems to disagree with you.

You are misunderstanding how software works, though.
The operating system and the software you run on it have nothing to do with each other. You can use proprietary software on linux (I own Quake wars and Prey f.x.) and you can use open source software on windows (firefox f.x.)


Quote
Also, and Im sure long time linux users might disagree as they've by now learned how it works, but Linux simply isnt as friendly, even the more popular distros arent as easy to get your head around as Windows.

Take two people with no previous computer experience and sit one in front of a linux machine, and one in front of a windows machine. I'll guarantee there'll be no difference in their ability to do their daily stuff. Why would there? Either way, you are just clicking on icons.

Windows is familiar because you've already used it, not because there's somehow anything more intuitive or helpful about it. (if you don't believe me, google "windows troubleshooting" or similar and see how many millions of hits you get.


Will linux ever "rule" the desktop ?

No more than amiga ever would have ruled it.

Does it matter ?

No. The choice is there for those who want it (stability, freedom). The desktop is only one tiny bit of what linux is, can and does.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: runequester on November 23, 2010, 08:19:35 AM
Quote from: Kesa;593758
I disagree. There will always be desktop pcs. They are as cheap as hell and i can't think of anything that is cheaper. As long as they are the cheapest form of pc they will exist.


It always amuses me a bit that I can buy a PC that will stay fully usable and good for the next 5-6 years easy for about the same cost as my A1200 back in 92 :)
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Daedalus on November 23, 2010, 08:34:03 AM
Quote from: Kesa;593743
I know why Linux hasn't gained mainstream popularity with the normal consumer. And i know why it never will.

It's because it doesn't cost anything. People associate a higher cost to higher quality. Because Windows 7 Ultimate has a price tag of A$268 the normal consumer will identify this as superior in quality than, say, Linux which is completely free.

Also lack of advertising from a major corporation like Microsoft means Linux has no awareness to the normal consumer.

Basic micro-economics     (http://gfx1.hotmail.com/mail/w4/pr04/ltr/emo/nerd_smile.gif)


Yes, and there's also the same reason that so many people still use Internet Explorer - the computer came with it and it works, so what reason have they got for changing it? Even online it's still very hard to find PCs which are supplied with Linux. If people were more aware and were offered their laptop for €50 less than normal because it has Linux instead of Windows on it, more people would go for it because 50 quid is 50 quid, and all they're doing is looking at Facebook anyway, and Farmville is as adventurous as their gaming gets. I do appreciate though that this would need lots of investment from PC suppliers though, for technical support staff and for marketing, and again, why would they bother when Windows works adequately?
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Daedalus on November 23, 2010, 08:36:42 AM
Quote from: runequester;593760
It always amuses me a bit that I can buy a PC that will stay fully usable and good for the next 5-6 years easy for about the same cost as my A1200 back in 92 :)


Yeah, PCs are getting better at longevity alright, though it does depend on how you use them. I've already had a couple of Windows 7 PCs to reinstall, both less than a year old, because the owners had installed all manner of crud on them and stopped them from booting.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: runequester on November 23, 2010, 08:39:11 AM
Quote from: Daedalus;593762
Yeah, PCs are getting better at longevity alright, though it does depend on how you use them. I've already had a couple of Windows 7 PCs to reinstall, both less than a year old, because the owners had installed all manner of crud on them and stopped them from booting.


I was more thinking of raw hardware specs, but your point is well taken. Take care of your machine and it'll probably last a long time. Go easy on the midget-goat movies and people will likely be better off :)

Outside of specialized tasks like hardcore FPS games (and those things are moving to the consoles anyways), virtual machines or heavy video editing, its hard to imagine any task where a plain 3-4 gigs of RAM would be insufficient.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: kedawa on November 23, 2010, 09:41:39 AM
Quote from: Kesa;593758
I disagree. There will always be desktop pcs. They are as cheap as hell and i can't think of anything that is cheaper. As long as they are the cheapest form of pc they will exist.

Netbooks are cheaper, and it won't be long before tablets are too.
I think once those devices are capable of replacing the desktop for the average user, which isn't that far off, the market will shift away from the desktop form factor completely.  Bathroom internet is the killer app of the future, after all.  There's a big opportunity there for iOS and Android to take users away from Windows.

Notebooks will have a much longer life, and Windows will be on nine out of ten of those machines, but the typical big beige box has one foot in the grave already.

There will always be desktop workstations and monster gaming rigs, but the consumer desktop will get displaced by other devices sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: coldfish on November 23, 2010, 10:00:59 AM
I use Linux, Windows, OSX almost daily and each one has its strong points over the others but I dont have a stron preference either way.  
It's a case of the "best" tool for the job; want to play games use Windows (or a console), want to create use OSX want to roll your own code use Linux. Of course you can do all these things on just one platform but variety is not as bad a thing as the fanbois say.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: tone007 on November 23, 2010, 11:21:11 AM
Quote from: Arkhan;593727
there are games on facebook, and some porn is pretty creative.

be quiet.

oh and porn has been around since the C64 days.  Quit being a bigot.


Damnit, http://amigaporn.com/ is taken.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: fishy_fiz on November 23, 2010, 03:06:01 PM
Quote from: runequester;593759
Firefox, Google Chrome (combined 43% of market share) and Apache (58% of server market) seems to disagree with you.

You are misunderstanding how software works, though.
The operating system and the software you run on it have nothing to do with each other. You can use proprietary software on linux (I own Quake wars and Prey f.x.) and you can use open source software on windows (firefox f.x.)




Take two people with no previous computer experience and sit one in front of a linux machine, and one in front of a windows machine. I'll guarantee there'll be no difference in their ability to do their daily stuff. Why would there? Either way, you are just clicking on icons.

Windows is familiar because you've already used it, not because there's somehow anything more intuitive or helpful about it. (if you don't believe me, google "windows troubleshooting" or similar and see how many millions of hits you get.


Will linux ever "rule" the desktop ?

No more than amiga ever would have ruled it.

Does it matter ?

No. The choice is there for those who want it (stability, freedom). The desktop is only one tiny bit of what linux is, can and does.


Firstly, I didnt say always in regards to open source software. There are examples (as you've given) when open source software is used as heavily as commercial efforts, I have no trouble admitting that and never said otherwise. Predominantely relying on open source and having access to are pretty different things though. As for me not understanding how software works,.... after 30 years of being into computers and developing I think I have a pretty good handle on it. Thanks anyway. Additionally I did say that I know Linux gaming is on the up, and I even mentioned things like WINE to be able to play commercial Windows software, but performance isnt what it is on Windows a lot of the time (as I already said as well). Also,... my post was ripe with me suggesting it doesnt matter to me anyway. I simply stated some reasons why Windows is a lot more dominant on the desktop than linux and why linux has little chance of making headway.


Seriously, did you even read my post, or just skimp through it and try to find fault ? Most of the things you've bought up I addressed already in my post, and both sides of the coin.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Arkhan on November 23, 2010, 03:15:51 PM
Bring on the hologram computering.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: runequester on November 25, 2010, 07:35:00 PM
Quote from: fishy_fiz;593831
Firstly, I didnt say always in regards to open source software. There are examples (as you've given) when open source software is used as heavily as commercial efforts, I have no trouble admitting that and never said otherwise. Predominantely relying on open source and having access to are pretty different things though. As for me not understanding how software works,.... after 30 years of being into computers and developing I think I have a pretty good handle on it. Thanks anyway. Additionally I did say that I know Linux gaming is on the up, and I even mentioned things like WINE to be able to play commercial Windows software, but performance isnt what it is on Windows a lot of the time (as I already said as well). Also,... my post was ripe with me suggesting it doesnt matter to me anyway. I simply stated some reasons why Windows is a lot more dominant on the desktop than linux and why linux has little chance of making headway.


Seriously, did you even read my post, or just skimp through it and try to find fault ? Most of the things you've bought up I addressed already in my post, and both sides of the coin.


Sorry man. Didn't mean to do the post ripping thing. What I was /trying/ to get across is something a lot of people tend to miss, which is that open source and proprietary aren't either / or affairs.

I've been horribly stuffed up from a cold the past few days, so I apologize for being a dick
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Kesa on November 25, 2010, 09:22:04 PM
I disagree that the desktop PC is almost finished. The cost of manufacturing is cheaper. If you look at tablets or smart phones they will cost more because they are small and when you make computers small and compact it costs more to manufacture.

If you look at the mac mini you would probably say they were over priced but in my opinion that is only half right. When you build small the cost goes up whereas the desktop PC doesn't have to worry about that so they stay cheap. As long as desktop PCs are cheaper to manufacture they will always be prominent.

That's also my opinion about all in one PCs. I saw an Acer all in one that was priced double its worth. Admittedly it had a touch screen but still. Same with the imac - A PC compacted into a small form forces the price up.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Karlos on November 25, 2010, 09:33:44 PM
Seems almost familiar:

(http://www.globalnerdy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/howfanboysseeoperatingsystems.jpg)
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: rebraist on November 25, 2010, 09:49:10 PM
linux is a glorious unix clone but nothing more than a clone.
osx is an (worse than linux) unix clone for posers and those who wanna be alternative even knowing that the big brother is out there sucking their blood and spitting smoke in their brain.
windows is the only original thing out there. made by an evil demon. but sometimes demons may be shy (ask to deep purple).
linus thorvald has been kidnapped by the aliens.
steve jobs makes money killing chinese workers.
bill and belinda gates gives his (not their, just his) money in charity to the poor.
commodore usa ceo is making a big amiga (BIG AMIGA) based on a big cpu: the xxx86. And a proprietary os: osama...
 
Let's flame on this...
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Kesa on November 25, 2010, 09:52:03 PM
That kid on that computer setup is priceless   :)

I don't know why but it reminds me of playdough  :rolleyes:


(http://www.livingonadime.com/images/playdough.jpg)
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Sparky on November 25, 2010, 10:00:02 PM
Guys!  you do realise that this thread is really REALLY sad don't you ?  I seem to remember there being a bit of a difference back when it was "Amiga vs Atari" ... I think it was that we were all about 12 years old ....
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Amiduffer on November 25, 2010, 10:19:02 PM
Quote from: Karlos;594359
Seems almost familiar:

(http://www.globalnerdy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/howfanboysseeoperatingsystems.jpg)


Holy crap Karlos. That was priceless. :lol:

All that matters is that it function. So far, everyone in the office who has asked me to replace Windows with Ubuntu has been satisfied because it works. It plays videos, it has a functional word processor, and all the other basic functions that folks normally need computers for.
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Karlos on November 25, 2010, 10:23:06 PM
Quote from: Amiduffer;594364
Holy crap Karlos. That was priceless. :lol:


As much as I'd like to take credit for that illustration, I can't :lol:

BTW, if you liked that, you'll love this (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=55440)...
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Buzzfuzz on November 25, 2010, 10:30:04 PM
Quote from: tone007;593653
That's not being a fanboy, that's using what you're familiar with because it's the quickest way to get something done.

Couldn't agree more, and as most people say, I don't care.
 
Flaming for an OS / at an OS is like being a kid like this:
[youtube]x2cXneR2RFE[/youtube]
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: smerf on November 25, 2010, 10:50:32 PM
Quote from: tone007;593793
Damnit, http://amigaporn.com/ is taken.


Hi,

HMMMM Wonder how the Amiga porn site would look in 3D.

smerf
Title: Re: Linux/Windows flame wars
Post by: Amiduffer on November 25, 2010, 11:41:12 PM
Quote from: Karlos;594365
As much as I'd like to take credit for that illustration, I can't :lol:

BTW, if you liked that, you'll love this (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=55440)...

That's OK. I saw that picture earlier. As one who has only had practical experience with classic hardware and OS up to 3.9, I can only look with bemused detachment at the arguments between Morph/AROS/4.1 users.

There's the chance of snagging a powerMac G4 real cheap, so, I might get the chance at becoming a MorphOS fanboy.