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Operating System Specific Discussions => Other Operating Systems => Topic started by: SysAdmin on October 22, 2013, 10:47:18 AM
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http://blogs.computerworld.com/windows/22998/windows-worldwide-market-share-stuck-15-and-falling
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A good joke.
That article sums potatoes and cabbages... windows and android.
I repeat, a good joke.
If you talk about mobile os, well windows has not even 1%...
This is wikipedia, september 2013. With windows at about 90% (as always it's been) for desktop systems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems
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I'm curious why people as so quick to discount iOS and Android as "Not proper operating systems"... It has the feel of someone in the early 80's discounting microcomputers as not real computers...
The truth is, most people use their tablet/iPad/smart phone for almost all day to day computing tasks. The desktop is becoming as much a relic as mainframes and minicomputers have now become.
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A good joke.
That article sums potatoes and cabbages... windows and android.
I repeat, a good joke.
If you talk about mobile os, well windows has not even 1%...
This is wikipedia, september 2013. With windows at about 90% (as always it's been) for desktop systems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems
Hello everybody. Market share is simply based on quarterly sales, not saturation, distribution or overall popularity. Producers want you to believe market share is everything because they want an industry that simply runs on sales. Not quality or reliability or saturation.
Usage share and market share are 2 different beasties.
Scoff at market share.
@bloodline. Agree with everything up until the last point. They're all personal computing devices with different form factors and peripherals. I'm not going to try and do a 20 page presentation on a Tablet, Or a network diagram on a smart phone. The breadth of usage has increased to cover more devices. Additionally most people keep a desktop or Laptop for 4-5 years but a tablet / smart phone for 2-3 years. 1:2 ratio. Market share is a dangerous master because it skews the story in favour of faster turn around popularity. Exactly what the producers want.
PS: The truth is, saying "the truth is" at the start of a sentence doesn't convert a view to the truth. ;)
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15%?
Apparently Ubuntu comes pre-installed on 10% of all new computers these days I would have thought that the other 90% was mostly Windows and at least 10% OSX.
I don't like to lump Android/iOS/WP/Blackberry in with the figures for computer sales personally.
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I'm curious why people as so quick to discount iOS and Android as "Not proper operating systems"... It has the feel of someone in the early 80's discounting microcomputers as not real computers...
The truth is, most people use their tablet/iPad/smart phone for almost all day to day computing tasks. The desktop is becoming as much a relic as mainframes and minicomputers have now become.
They are "proper operating systems" of course but I still like to keep them separate for now.
It's not like people develop for Android/iOS on Android/iOS devices yet. (I know one can but it's not common place yet)
Give it another 5yrs and things will probably change in that direction though.
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They are "proper operating systems" of course but I still like to keep them separate for now.
It's not like people develop for Android/iOS on Android/iOS devices yet. (I know one can but it's not common place yet)
Give it another 5yrs and things will probably change in that direction though.
That's why I was careful to say that the desktop is becoming a relic, soon it will be relegated to the workplaces and homes of people who actually need one... I expect most people will be content to use much more lightweight devices :)
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I'm curious why people as so quick to discount iOS and Android as "Not proper operating systems"... It has the feel of someone in the early 80's discounting microcomputers as not real computers...
The truth is, most people use their tablet/iPad/smart phone for almost all day to day computing tasks. The desktop is becoming as much a relic as mainframes and minicomputers have now become.
Want to know why?
Because at the 90's, with Internet, computers received a bunch of "appliance" users willing to play with it. Now, those users are moving away back to the Appliance world: Microwave, VHS Players, Blu-Ray Players, TIVO, Tablets,...
People who "work" with computers, would NOT move to a full-screen apps/touch only device.
Big Screen, Window Manager, Keyboard and Mouse are FASTER to work with.
And then, journalists who know computers just because of the Internet, keep pushing for "the death of PC" or "the post pc area"
The only bad news is that, without the proper volume, prices would sky high again, as they used to be at the beginning of the 90s.
Sooner or later, regular people will realize that... :)
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If you talk about mobile os, well windows has not even 1%...
It will be interesting what happens with Microsoft owning Nokia. Everyone I know who has a windows phone loves it.
All phone OS' are fragmented right now, writing software that is compatible across all Android phones is very complex.
If Microsoft support phones as well as they supported PC's through the years then I think they might even gain some success.
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It will be interesting what happens with Microsoft owning Nokia. Everyone I know who has a windows phone loves it.
All phone OS' are fragmented right now, writing software that is compatible across all Android phones is very complex.
If Microsoft support phones as well as they supported PC's through the years then I think they might even gain some success.
I had a Lumia 920 before the LCD corrupted (I had to send it back to Europe for repair under warranty).
Something really annoying is that it lacks some stupid features like Bluetooth HID. What it means? I cant connect a BT keyboard for example...
Besides being really heavy, the other point I felt it a little subjective. At least for me, it feels claustrophobic! All that screen space and so little things to do...
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I cant connect a BT keyboard for example...
Besides being really heavy, the other point I felt it a little subjective. At least for me, it feels claustrophobic! All that screen space and so little things to do...
It is true that it suffers from lack of apps. Bluetooth keyboard is a minority feature for a phone, although I'd expect that they will support it eventually as they move phones towards Windows 8.
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I think SteamOS has a real chance of hurting windows even more as a lot of the core gamers are not that happy with Windows 8 direction, lose them and more and more of the market will shift. Interesting times.
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Hello everybody. Market share is simply based on quarterly sales, not saturation, distribution or overall popularity. Producers want you to believe market share is everything because they want an industry that simply runs on sales. Not quality or reliability or saturation.
Usage share and market share are 2 different beasties.
Scoff at market share.
@bloodline. Agree with everything up until the last point. They're all personal computing devices with different form factors and peripherals. I'm not going to try and do a 20 page presentation on a Tablet, Or a network diagram on a smart phone. The breadth of usage has increased to cover more devices. Additionally most people keep a desktop or Laptop for 4-5 years but a tablet / smart phone for 2-3 years. 1:2 ratio. Market share is a dangerous master because it skews the story in favour of faster turn around popularity. Exactly what the producers want.
PS: The truth is, saying "the truth is" at the start of a sentence doesn't convert a view to the truth. ;)
Well said
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Stuck and falling?
So is it stuck or falling as it can't be both.
I'm also fed up of these anti Microsoft debates. Another reason I barely come here now
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Ah.. The fall of Microsoft, what a beautiful dream. A world where the desktop computers are all Linux/Amiga/Risc OS niche powerstations where we can program, play and create without having to spot a single Microsoft app.
At the same time, non tech-saavy people can have their tablets and smartphones, too.
Desktop hardware prices won't skyrocket: look at the Raspberry Pi, the Cubie2 or the IFC6410 SBCs. That's where the desktop is going after the fall of the Dark Lord.
What a party I will make when Microsoft goes belly-up!
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Desktop hardware prices won't skyrocket: look at the Raspberry Pi, the Cubie2 or the IFC6410 SBCs. That's where the desktop is going after the fall of the Dark Lord.
What a party I will make when Microsoft goes belly-up!
I think some of the 80'rs 90'rs like us blame M$ for the fall of Commodore.
Another one of those myopic debates about VHS/Betamax, and VHS should be hated because video quality on Betamax was better...
for instance, what defines a "better" humanoid? How do we know if Homo-Sapiens was the "best" one?
The one who survived, maybe?
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Ah, btw, ask ANY hw creator out there. Maybe A-EON guys to see the price difference between making 1.000 pieces and 1.000.000 pieces of something to see if your analysis on hw prices are pointing to the right direction.
Unless, of course, we would be using desktops made with tablet chips...
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The truth is, most people use their tablet/iPad/smart phone for almost all day to day computing tasks. The desktop is becoming as much a relic as mainframes and minicomputers have now become.
Tablet evangelists keep repeating this mantra, but three years into the iPad era it's still not lining up with any reality I can see. Out of every single person I know, there is exactly one guy who uses a smartphone as his primary computing device, and that by his own admission is because he's out of work and can't afford (his words) "a real computer." He's not even a techie - nor are 90% of the other people I know. They're just normal people. Sure, many of them have iPhones and perhaps tablets, but they use them primarily as mobile browsing/email platforms, they don't try to do serious work on them, and they largely don't even use them when they're not out and about. They have PCs (or Macs) for that. And if they're normal people, what reason do I have to believe that all the other normal people walking around town jabbering into their smartphone don't have a real computer at home?
It's as gertsy says: what's selling is a vastly smaller subset of what people are using.
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@commodorejohn I hate to break this to you, but we don't matter... The people you know are yesterday's users. Spend some time with young people and see how they are using technology... That's the future, not those of us who sill remember 8bit games :)
I use an iPad Mini for 90% of my computing tasks now... With a 5 year old MacBook Pro for some heavy lifting, content creation work... But more and more work can be done on mobile devices now!
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I think some of the 80'rs 90'rs like us blame M$ for the fall of Commodore.
Another one of those myopic debates about VHS/Betamax, and VHS should be hated because video quality on Betamax was better...
for instance, what defines a "better" humanoid? How do we know if Homo-Sapiens was the "best" one?
The one who survived, maybe?
Hey hbarcellos, I see you have other tastes beside MSX :D Nice to see you around here, too.
No, I don't blame Microsoft for the fall of Commodore: Commodore was leeching the C64 too long and they didn't invest enough on Amiga technology, being unable to update it properly for almos 10 years. I know the story of the once mighty Commodore and I don't have any love for that company.
But Microsoft has made computing boring, ugly, soul-less, inefficient, stupid and offensive. I hate their products because of the BAD feeling they have, the poor technology decisions they have always taken and their most inner stupidity. They used to call Amiga a "games machine": "huh, colors, music, mouse.. what are those for, gaming?"
They damaged the industry beyond repair with their dominance based on strong and agresive marketing and distribution chain mafia-like politics, to put their atrocious products down our throats.
I HOPE they consume, suffer, die and disapear with pain and hunger.
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@commodorejohn I hate to break this to you, but we don't matter... The people you know are yesterday's users. Spend some time with young people and see how they are using technology... That's the future, not those of us who sill remember 8bit games :)
I use an iPad Mini for 90% of my computing tasks now... With a 5 year old MacBook Pro for some heavy lifting, content creation work... But more and more work can be done on mobile devices now!
The people I know encompass an age range from sixty-year-olds (who, we're told, are afraid of the complexity of real computers and are totally all using the iPads now) to elementary-school students. The guy who expressed his desire for "a real computer" is barely out of high school. I know junior-high students who own laptops and use them for mobile computing rather than smartphones or tablets. If these people are "yesterday's users," "today's users" and "tomorrow's users" must all still be in kindergarten.
Seriously, man. If your scaled-down iPad works for you, well, whatever. But your preference has squat to do with what people are actually using, and all the evidence that I have seen points to exactly not what you're claiming.
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I've had this discussion in several other forums, but it boils down to a decision by the majority: at what point does ease-of-use supersede function?
Bigger desktop cases offer more space for more stuff to fit into, and portables remove that advanced processing muscle in favor of great portability. At their extremes, a desktop will exponentially outperform a tablet, while a tablet can be used anywhere, anytime. It's clear that your average Joe, who is really the driving force in the market, doesn't have much use for the power offered by desktops anymore.
I think those of us who grew up with desktops hold their unique benefits more dearly than those who use computers for more general stuff.
It always sucks having insight and perspective on products and their uses only to see the neophytes pass on those benefits in favor of their own preferential satisfaction, but that's the story of, well, just about any product throughout history.
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If you are planning to type anything into a computer, you're hopefully not going to use a touch screen device or a tiny bluetooth chiclet keyboard to do it. As long as people want to type things into computers, the traditional ones with full-size keyboards and large, ergonomically positioned monitors aren't going away.
I couldn't spend 90% of my computing time at an iPad or any such device since I work a day job where I have to do a lot of typing into a computer. Another handicapping feature of these devices is that they won't run the software I want to use. Even if typing on an iPad touch screen that you either stare down at or lift your arm to reach wasn't the most ergonomically unsound idea since the stretching rack, I couldn't use it to compile and debug software in any meaningful way.
I'm not sure what meaningful thing I'd do at a computer if I had to spend 90% at an iPad. I thankfully don't have enough menial work to do to be able to spend any serious stretch of time doing it with a locked down, barely multitasking phone device.
Unlike many other historical developments of computer user interfaces -- going from knobs and jacks to flip switches, to punch cards, to printer terminals, to CRT terminals, to desktop computers, laptops -- the touch screen device is a massive trade-off in terms of efficiency and ergonomics. It exists simply because it's small and somewhat more flexible in terms of presentation than a tiny keyboard and a tiny screen.
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guys, you can call me an idiot, but ive just acquired ms surface pro some time ago and while i find the integration of both frontend interfaces seriously inconsistent, im not bothered with it that much. with all these inconsequences one has to accustom to it seems damn useful device that can substitute my i7 pc in most cases while looking and working like an expandable tablet (few interfaces like usb, bluetooth, wlan, video but stinn lore than a regular mobile device i think). also im rather positively surprised with win8 in contrary to win7, being actually a hardcore xp appologist when it comes to pcs.
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guys, you can call me an idiot, but ive just acquired ms surface pro some time ago and while i find the integration of both frontend interfaces seriously inconsistent, im not bothered with it that much. with all these inconsequences one has to accustom to it seems damn useful device that can substitute my i7 pc in most cases while looking and working like an expandable tablet (few interfaces like usb, bluetooth, wlan, video but stinn lore than a regular mobile device i think). also im rather positively surprised with win8 in contrary to win7, being actually a hardcore xp appologist when it comes to pcs.
Surface is a waste of money, just like the Zune.
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A good joke.
That article sums potatoes and cabbages... windows and android.
I repeat, a good joke.
If you talk about mobile os, well windows has not even 1%...
This is wikipedia, september 2013. With windows at about 90% (as always it's been) for desktop systems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems
Be careful with Wikipedia as just today it informed me that Enduro was only released for the Atari 2600....which is a kind of funny because here I have a clamshell cassette with the game on tape for the Sinclair pregnant calculator (Spectrum AKA Timex computer in the USA) :)
In the corporate world Windows has probably infected 99% of businesses in the western world so that's even worse. In every office I have ever worked it is 1000:1 or 100:1 PC:Mac ratio.
However the statistic of Mac sales vs Wintel sales to new customers in the US is indeed much less than 90%. Students outside those for nerds invariably go for NON Microsoft stuff.
Luckily looking at PS4 vs Xbox 180 (sorry XBONE) it is quite possible they will really screw that up with more draconian DRM, some weird insistence that their $hit online service should STILL be paid for and much weaker performance of hardware in the box. Let's hope Windows 8 and XBONE combine to make a massive dent in their filthy market shares accrued through illegal activities and absolutely pathetic programming ability (or lack there of) :)
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I have to say I am with Commodorejohn and Linde on this subject, there are to much gain in stationary/laptop x86 PC's that can't be traded away for handheld touch devices, sure some people can do most of their computing needs on handheld devices but every single one I know have either a stationary computer or a laptop, they use their handhelds at the TV under comercials and on the go.
I know people in a wide age span, my youngest sister is 24 years younger then me and all of em use full size x86 Machines.
Ive even noticed a wide range of heavy handheld device users use it mostly for their Facebook/twitter/flikr needs and cheking the weather (beside Calling/texting) and as soon they need to type something bigger or browse the internet more then news sites they go to a x86 machine.
I don't know facts and numbers, I just state what I see around me and my eyes do not see the end of PC's.
I don't see how a 4-10" handheld could dominate the average joe's all computing needs either if he is a techie or not.
There is just so much you can not do without a mouse/keyboard and propper display size not to forget the ergonomics.
Just my two cents without going to deep in the subject.
Sorry about misspellings and such, im tired after a night with Stargate ;)
Edit: Good night :)
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It don't matter if windows goes. The desktop will still be around. More games are being released to Linux than windows. Steam is starting to become somewhat popular on Linux. Not all their games are there yet. The online games should start thinking about moving towards Linux.
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15%?
Apparently Ubuntu comes pre-installed on 10% of all new computers these days I would have thought that the other 90% was mostly Windows and at least 10% OSX.
I don't like to lump Android/iOS/WP/Blackberry in with the figures for computer sales personally.
If you count mobile in with desktops it begs the question why not count game systems?
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If you count mobile in with desktops it begs the question why not count game systems?
Indeed why not, the PS4 running BSD would certainly skew the results once it's been on sale for a while. :)
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I think SteamOS has a real chance of hurting windows even more as a lot of the core gamers are not that happy with Windows 8 direction, lose them and more and more of the market will shift. Interesting times.
I don't believe that people who don't like the start menu will just ditch windows for steamos, as that is also different.
Indeed why not, the PS4 running BSD would certainly skew the results once it's been on sale for a while. :)
So will the xbox one running windows.
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When I replace my XP games machine it will be an I7 with win 7. no win8, too much stuff I'll never use.
Chris
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It'll all quiet down, MS Windows 8.1 is usable, the annoying two head desktop is less annoying, people will accept it in time like they accepted the start/windows button in the past. Everyone thought that was a bad idea when it first came out and it was, but people came to use it anyway.
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I'll believe it when I see it.
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It'll all quiet down, MS Windows 8.1 is usable, the annoying two head desktop is less annoying, people will accept it in time like they accepted the start/windows button in the past. Everyone thought that was a bad idea when it first came out and it was, but people came to use it anyway.
Much like ultimately accepting the sweet release of death.
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I expect this will be the last windows I will buy. When support for Win7 goes I'll load it with Linux. Most games publishers will be running from windows by then.
Chris
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Android Phones ship with 1920x1080p displays today.
Android Phones ship with 4 core cpus @1.6+ Ghz per core.
Android Phones multitask.
Android Phones ship with 1GB+ of RAM today.
Android Phones connect to the internet.
Android Phones run real web browsers.
Of course Android Phones are real computers with a real operating system and thousands of applications and games.
If a quadcore 1.6Ghz 1920x1080p computer that effortlessly plays 1080p movies and is portable and energy efficient isn't a real computer then there is no such thing as "a real computer" anymore.
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Android Phones ship with 1920x1080p displays today.
Android Phones ship with 4 core cpus @1.6+ Ghz per core.
Android Phones multitask.
Android Phones ship with 1GB+ of RAM today.
Android Phones connect to the internet.
Android Phones run real web browsers.
Of course Android Phones are real computers with a real operating system and thousands of applications and games.
If a quadcore 1.6Ghz 1920x1080p computer that effortlessly plays 1080p movies and is portable and energy efficient isn't a real computer then there is no such thing as "a real computer" anymore.
Android Phones are oranges.
PC's are apples.
They are completely different.
ps if Android multitasks then why do i have to exit most apps, go to the home screen, open another app, go back to the home screen, then reopen the original app. Most of the time it is only to do something trival.
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Don't think major game or production, let alone other tools like engineering software will be made for android. At least I won't bet on it.
Chris
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Don't think major game or production, let alone other tools like engineering software will be made for android. At least I won't bet on it.
Chris
As soon as more tablets and phones and such are released with easy-to-connect external monitor + keyboard and mouse connections that type of software will soon follow.
Just wait a couple of more years and such phones/tablets/etc will be more common.
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"Just wait until tablets become shoddy laptops, and then they'll probably get all the software laptops already have!"
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Tablet evangelists keep repeating this mantra, but three years into the iPad era it's still not lining up with any reality I can see. Out of every single person I know, there is exactly one guy who uses a smartphone as his primary computing device, and that by his own admission is because he's out of work and can't afford (his words) "a real computer." He's not even a techie - nor are 90% of the other people I know. They're just normal people. Sure, many of them have iPhones and perhaps tablets, but they use them primarily as mobile browsing/email platforms, they don't try to do serious work on them, and they largely don't even use them when they're not out and about. They have PCs (or Macs) for that. And if they're normal people, what reason do I have to believe that all the other normal people walking around town jabbering into their smartphone don't have a real computer at home?
It's as gertsy says: what's selling is a vastly smaller subset of what people are using.
I know loads of people who use nothing but phones and tablets and have no desktop or laptop computer. They mostly fall into two categories: middle aged and older folks who don't care for computers and never did, and college students.
We're always going to have desktop and laptop computers, but they're evaporating from the consumer space at a rapid pace. Tablets and smartphones cover most users need in a less expensive and more convenient form factor.
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It is the loathsome terminate and stay resident.
My virus scanner uses 3 processes in the task monitor. No idea why it needs 3. Online update (OUC) runs even though it does nothing and is often targeted for concealing a virus.
I'm going get into the virtual machine thing. If some software ruins the OS in the VM, I just delete and use the backup.
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I know loads of people who use nothing but phones and tablets and have no desktop or laptop computer. They mostly fall into two categories: middle aged and older folks who don't care for computers and never did, and college students.
We're always going to have desktop and laptop computers, but they're evaporating from the consumer space at a rapid pace. Tablets and smartphones cover most users need in a less expensive and more convenient form factor.
Yes they are content consumers. As opposed to content creators. But I don't believe a college student these days can get by not using a personal computer.
@chickenDevil: TSR, your joking right. How is that the OSs fault?
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MS Windows is not going to disappear. Those who believe so should stop popping their delusional 'A' (apple) pills.
All form factors have their flaws but desktops are by far the most superior as they are easy to upgrade, repair, customize and offer the greatest longevity.
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But I don't believe a college student these days can get by not using a personal computer.
I'm currently in college and I personally know quite a few students who get by just fine with nothing but a tablet. They can access their ebooks, blackboard and type their essays on them. I think its a supreme waste of time doing so as it's double the effort of just using a laptop, but students seem to want to do crap on tablets for whatever reason. A lot of the younger students seem to lack basic computer skills and have serious troubles in the computer lab.
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Yes they are content consumers. As opposed to content creators. But I don't believe a college student these days can get by not using a personal computer.
With a Bluetooth keyboard... I'd be surprised if most students would have a problem with a tablet for almost any task I can think of.
My two heaving lifting tasks where I still use a laptop are making music and programming... Both of which I now do on my iPad mini when I'm away from home... The laptop stays at home.
@chickenDevil: TSR, your joking right. How is that the OSs fault?
OS security policy.
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How about something simple like making a PowerPoint presentation or for that matter using any msoffice software? As a student i can confidently say it is impossible to use an ipad or Android device for uni.
In fact typing out this post using my phone is 10 times harder and annoying than it needs to be.
Also usb sticks is a must in daily uni life for all sorts of things.
I need a laptop. Tablets and phones are useless for anything but checking emails and using blackboard.
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When I replace my XP games machine it will be an I7 with win 7. no win8, too much stuff I'll never use.
You realise that windows 8 runs faster and uses less ram right?
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So, which is it? Stuck at 15% or falling? Can't be stuck and fall at the same time...
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You realise that windows 8 runs faster and uses less ram right?
Some programs don't work on windows 8. Even with the new windows 8.1 it not that great. It does use less ram. Don't get me started on windows 8 failures. I would rather have compatibility than less features. Metro is only good if you have touch screen monitor.
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Ever hear of Keynote (http://www.apple.com/ios/keynote/)?
How about something simple like making a PowerPoint presentation or for that matter using any msoffice software? As a student i can confidently say it is impossible to use an ipad or Android device for uni.
In fact typing out this post using my phone is 10 times harder and annoying than it needs to be.
Also usb sticks is a must in daily uni life for all sorts of things.
I need a laptop. Tablets and phones are useless for anything but checking emails and using blackboard.
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How about something simple like making a PowerPoint presentation or for that matter using any msoffice software? As a student i can confidently say it is impossible to use an ipad or Android device for uni.
In fact typing out this post using my phone is 10 times harder and annoying than it needs to be.
Also usb sticks is a must in daily uni life for all sorts of things.
I need a laptop. Tablets and phones are useless for anything but checking emails and using blackboard.
Actually I wrote (and presented) a presentation on welfare reform for my last job interview using my iPad mini! :)
-edit- This was using keynote, but you can build PowerPoint presentations using quick office on both the iPad and android tablets.
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Actually I wrote (and presented) a presentation on welfare reform for my last job interview using my iPad mini! :)
-edit- This was using keynote, but you can build PowerPoint presentations using quick office on both the iPad and android tablets.
hmmm... sounds interesting.
Personally i hope tablets never replace laptops. I hate touchscreens!
Did you get the job? :)
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Some programs don't work on windows 8. Even with the new windows 8.1 it not that great. It does use less ram. Don't get me started on windows 8 failures. I would rather have compatibility than less features. Metro is only good if you have touch screen monitor.
+1. I tested Windows 8 extensively in our business environment and despite Microsoft's claims, there were many enterprise applications that work fine under Windows 7 Pro 64-bit that failed under Windows 8. And if the claim that it uses less ram is true, I'd be willing to bet that's only because they removed Aero (which at least looks nice and runs quite well on modern graphics hardware) and replaced it with those flat, lifeless-looking tiles.
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hmmm... sounds interesting.
Personally i hope tablets never replace laptops.
Despite all I've said in support of Tablets, I completely agree with you.
But I'm not going to bury my head in the sand and pretend that the technology I grew up with is going to very relevant in the future.
I hate touchscreens!
As an interface, it has its place. I can't hate it any more than I hate keyboards :)
Did you get the job? :)
Thankfully I did, but I'm not going to credit that to the iPad... Though it was very useful being able to work on my presentation whenever I had a free moment... Also I was able to make changes right up to the moment of the interview!
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An input interface you have stare at to have any idea of what you're doing, constantly repositioning your hands while you do to see what's behind them... I am a happy iPhone user, so I feel like there are some good ideas supporting the use a touch screen, none of which are related to ergonomics.
I hope I'm not burying my head in the sand by saying that laptops are going to stay until there is something more handy that can viably replace their functionality. If all you do is spending short stretches of time using single-application drag and drop work, email reading or browsing, sure, an iPad might be your better choice. If you're using your computer actively for more than 8 hours a day, doing any typing, rely heavily on side-by-side windowing, or mind paying for even the most rarely useful application, you aren't going to trade your laptop for an iPad. Chances are you aren't even going to trade your desktop computer for a laptop.
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With a Bluetooth keyboard... I'd be surprised if most students would have a problem with a tablet for almost any task I can think of.
My two heaving lifting tasks where I still use a laptop are making music and programming... Both of which I now do on my iPad mini when I'm away from home... The laptop stays at home.
OS security policy.
All the students I know use Laptops. Mac or Windows. Perhaps we're a little behind the times over here.
OS security policy/Group Policy. No.
But as many contributors quite often attest Windows has no security, right?
I don't doubt that devices in the future will be very different than today. That's clear. But a Human user interface and display will remain large(big) as long as the content requires it.
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When I replace my XP games machine it will be an I7 with win 7. no win8, too much stuff I'll never use.
Chris
I think it's also time to replace my laptop with one I can record HD gameplay videos on WinUAE (so that will have to be an i7 with proper GPU on the motherboard) but Win 7 is such an ugly interface it is pretty certain I will replace it with the Vista GUI which at least looks smart. It is mostly for security though more than anything else, XP just gets slaughtered at the slightest hint of a TCP/IP connection these days hmmmm
I have had to experience the stupid Win 8 interface once this year and I can promise you it is not something I would ever install. If I have to stare at the screen and wonder WTF it is trying to tell me via this interface when I have an IQ of 137 then clearly it is Microsoft who is deficient not myself :) I had so many family members ask me how to do something on Skype for Win 8 I had to just tell them I don't have a Win 8 machine and if they install and older version there problems would be solved! haha
If however you use some obscure emulators you can not use anything past Vista due to screen access functions provided to applications that have been removed in Windows 7.
XP is the oldest I would go though, if it doesn't run on XP then forget it IMO (DOS games were better on Amiga most of the time and Windows 95/98 is next to impossible to get running without problems on modern hardware).
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but Win 7 is such an ugly interface it is pretty certain I will replace it with the Vista GUI which at least looks smart.
If however you use some obscure emulators you can not use anything past Vista due to screen access functions provided to applications that have been removed in Windows 7.
Why is windows 7 ugly? How is vista better? Windows 7 is intuitive and efficient.
It's the orb isn't it. That's why you hate it. I guess thats the problem with having an IQ of 137 - you obsess over trival details ;)
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Windows 7 is ugly. So is XP's Luna theme, and Vista's weird transitional look. But XP and Vista at least let you go back to the classic Windows 95 look. 7 doesn't, because Microsoft's official New Direction (beginning with many of the other changes in Vista, and now brought to fruition in 8's inescapable Metro Start screen, among other things) is that everybody uses the new things, legacy is out and you're stupid for wanting it, now bow and pay homage, the design department demands your appreciation for their genius! When all along Windows's #1 selling point has been legacy compatibility and "it works exactly like how it used to work." It's no wonder people are increasingly less-impressed with the new versions.
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose. IMHO XP looks too dated, although its Silver theme isn't too horrible. Vista looks like some half-breed kludge, although it was okay for its day. 7 looks great, professional and modern with its translucent borders and gradients (once you tweak a few settings), and 8 is even worse than XP - flat, dull, lifeless. They've even removed such basic things like being able to adjust icon spacing... unless you want to use a registry hack. :p
But this is the kind of question where you ask 100 people what looks best, you're going to get 101 different answers, LOL. ;)
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True enough - which is why it was great when they actually allowed people to roll back to the old look if they didn't like the new one...
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True enough - which is why it was great when they actually allowed people to roll back to the old look if they didn't like the new one...
It was only possible because of the kludgy way they added themes to XP. Windows 8 has none of that crud left over, so you might not be used to the way it looks but it runs much faster.
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Yes, they certainly couldn't have reimplemented themes in a non-kludgy way! They had to get rid of user choice!
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Windows profits up 17%
Shares up 6%
So not doing that bad after all.
Now what interests me more and why I come to this site is, how is workbench doing
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Interesting read on the theme of how the market share decrease doesn't necessarily indicate that the PC is dying: http://idiallo.com/blog/2013/10/pc-is-not-dead-no-need-for-new-ones.
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......
Now what interests me more and why I come to this site is, how is workbench doing
Agree, but there's always an OS knocking thread running here. Its moderator promoted��
Its either windows, Mac, or OS 4 bashing.
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Agree, but there's always an OS knocking thread running here. Its moderator promoted��
Its either windows, Mac, or OS 4 bashing.
That's what this "Other operating systems" forum is for.
I don't mind these threads when they are in this forum, when they are posted as news however; that's a whole different kettle of fish.
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Yes, they certainly couldn't have reimplemented themes in a non-kludgy way! They had to get rid of user choice!
They did re-implement themes in a non-kludgy way, which is why they removed the old code.
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That's what this "Other operating systems" forum is for.
I don't mind these threads when they are in this forum, when they are posted as news however; that's a whole different kettle of fish.
The problem is there always seems to be a thread on why micro$oft are performing so bad. There has always been an anti Microsoft vibe from some people including myself, but now it's getting a bit too much.
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They did re-implement themes in a non-kludgy way, which is why they removed the old code.
So you can switch it back to the old look and behavior? Because otherwise they're still a mark down from XP (and to a lesser extent Vista) on that point.
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I am keeping my fingers crossed that Microsoft keep plugging away at the PC cus with all the other kids toys on the market that don't have a hood let alone an engine compartment this particular computer mechanic would have real problems feeding his passion for computers. Obscurity is fun but flying in the fast lane is still pretty exhilarating. You may dislike Microsoft, but trust me there is no greater evil than iCrap. If you want to seriously target something that is really destroying traditional computing then you can start by not buying that particular kind of junk. Time will come when there wont even be any innards to a computer and all your worldly data will be sitting on some iCloud. We need to feed tin boxes cus in truth they are the only things that have any chance of keeping my Amigas alive. Unless that is you like virtual reality... which is what iJunk Inc are peddling.
I did use to think it would be Bill Gates that destroyed my computer interest, but I have decided it is more likely to be a biproduct of the bloody mobile phone.
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Here is my Windows 8 machine as close as possible to classic windows themes, not accurate enough, no icon change etc just colors and classic shell installed, but as close as it gets without skinning with windows blinds etc, the start menu is from "classic shell" with my own start button.
All Metro UI stuff is turned off and won't pop up whatever yuo do, you have to manually edit the configs to turn it on again.
image shrinked to 70% from 1920x1080.
(http://oi43.tinypic.com/10gbciq.jpg)
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Windows 7 is ugly. So is XP's Luna theme, and Vista's weird transitional look. But XP and Vista at least let you go back to the classic Windows 95 look.
How to make Windows 7 pretty: switch off transparency effects.
I also like the classic Windows 95 look but dont you ever get bored to it? I had been using XP 6 years but finally in this month my work laptop was upgraded to Windows 7. It is quite refreshing to have a new look and it is not that bad. Maybe not the prettiest, drop shadows look odd.
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I also like the classic Windows 95 look but dont you ever get bored to it? I had been using XP 6 years but finally in this month my work laptop was upgraded to Windows 7. It is quite refreshing to have a new look and it is not that bad. Maybe not the prettiest, drop shadows look odd.
Eh, no. I don't get bored of the Windows 95 look because, in my humble opinion, the purpose of a user interface is to provide information and control to the user and then get the hell out of the way. Most "pretty" interfaces are really bad at that last part. 7's look isn't remotely the worst I've seen (that title would have to go to all that horrible pointlessly-skeumorphic software that flooded the market in the late '90s-early '00s,) but it wastes a lot of screen space (and some of us are still on 1024x768, mind!) and has a lot of visual "noise" that catches the eye to no other purpose than looking pretty. The 95 look delivers information in a neat, clean way that never distracts you from what you're actually doing, and that's what a UI should be.
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11 Hard Drives?
Here is my Windows 8 machine as close as possible to classic windows themes, not accurate enough, no icon change etc just colors and classic shell installed, but as close as it gets without skinning with windows blinds etc, the start menu is from "classic shell" with my own start button.
All Metro UI stuff is turned off and won't pop up whatever yuo do, you have to manually edit the configs to turn it on again.
image shrinked to 70% from 1920x1080.
(http://oi43.tinypic.com/10gbciq.jpg)
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Damn, that's eerily similar to my Windows setup in regards to drives/partitions, even down to the labels
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Enough disk space there, som99?
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11 hard drives being managed through metro touch screen interface. No wonder you are not happy.
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11 Hard Drives?
No, 8 physical and 3 extra partitions :)
Damn, that's eerily similar to my Windows setup in regards to drives/partitions, even down to the labels
Great minds think alike ;)
Enough disk space there, som99?
Running really low on that machine, but planning on expanding it soon and use the old drives in my file server/seed box :)
11 hard drives being managed through metro touch screen interface. No wonder you are not happy.
You make me happy Kesa ;)
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So you can switch it back to the old look and behavior? Because otherwise they're still a mark down from XP (and to a lesser extent Vista) on that point.
No you can't, which is good because it means that old look that 0.1% of people would use isn't in there slowing the computer and the Microsoft developers down.
That puts them several marks up.
I know you can't help being cranky, but it's not all about you.
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Why would it slow the computer down. Maybe you could explain that to me?
But yes you are right that it would be counter productive in that for every feature ms offers they must also provide support for that feature. Which would be a waste if it was something only 0.1% of people would use and the developer resources could be better put to use somewhere else. Why waste limited/valuable developer resources on something no-one wants?
Hey, that sounds like the economic problem - limited resources, unlimited wants.
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A far large percentage of MS Windows users than OS X users are still using mice. The Windows tile interface works best on a track pad.
Since 8.1 it is a lot harder to get lost, the only thing that isn't obvious is the charms bar. It looks as though they really tried to make the start screen act more like OS X launchpad.
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Do partitions make sense in a modern OS?
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A far large percentage of MS Windows users than OS X users are still using mice. The Windows tile interface works best on a track pad.
Since 8.1 it is a lot harder to get lost, the only thing that isn't obvious is the charms bar. It looks as though they really tried to make the start screen act more like OS X launchpad.
I don't understand the mouse percentage claim, But IMO the Tile interface works best on touch not track pad.
On the last point; how has the 8.1 start screen been made to act like the OS X Launch pad ?
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No you can't, which is good because it means that old look that 0.1% of people would use isn't in there slowing the computer and the Microsoft developers down.
That puts them several marks up.
If they already have the capability in the OS, then providing the old look and feel as an option is not going to slow the system down. You're talking nonsense to justify their behavior.
Also, your "0.1%" is pulled out of thin air. Fact is, a year on from release, Windows 8 has only just cracked 8% market share - slightly over one-sixth of 7's and just over one-fourth of XP's. So the newer OS that acts closer to the old OS is six times as successful as the one that doesn't, and the old OS is still four times more popular than the new hotness. Those are't numbers that suggest that "0.1%" of people care about this.
I know you can't help being cranky, but it's not all about you.
And it's not about anybody else who just wants to use their computer the way they've always used their computer, either. Which is the reason behind those numbers up there. Microsoft has spent the last two years banging their head against the wall, failing to understand or accept that they can't just engineer their customers to fit the product they want to make - with Windows 8, with the Surface, with the XBone - and they're alienating the customers they do have in the process. That's really stupid behavior for a business.
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Do partitions make sense in a modern OS?
For dual boot it does and to dedicate partitions to VMWare :)
Edit: and of course F: has a ghost image of freshly installed Windows + all drivers etc and important applications.
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Launchpad isn't a separate world in OS X, it's just a way to see all your applications, it doesn't have active tiles that feed you information. It feels a part of the OS. Microsoft has tried to integrate the Start screen back into Windows 8.1, so it's less jarring, unfortunately Windows 8 apps still run in there own desktop full screen by default rather than allowing you to make them full screen like OS X. I think Microsoft tried too hard, instead of just copying OS X they tried to one better OS X and they aren't really good at that.
What needs to happen is that Windows 7 apps need to run in the Windows 8 desktop so that they can just do away with the Windows 7 desktop entirely. The tiles need to be rethought. Is it really necessary to display information in a program launch window? And while better they really need to think about how to switch between full screen and not full screen. They need to pull touch and non-touch apart and optimise for both.
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I leave some space on drives or have an empty OS partition. If the OS get virus damaged I can reinstall and have all my software ready, without plugging in extra hard drives.
I think MS will fail some day in the future. Their software is silly and uninspired.
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Apple really got the trackpad. Windows 8.1 works with a trackpad far better than a mouse, but they aren't really using it right. It needs to basically duplicate what a touch interface does and no more. Somebody should lock the Microsoft designers in a room full of MacBook Airs and not let them out until they understand the Trackpad.
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Sort of like what Dell does... Being a Mac user my Windows environments are all virtual, if the Windows VM become diseased I blow it away and use a backed up VM.
Windows has 90% of the desktop market, a company that can't leverage that into the tablet market deserves to fail.
I leave some space on drives or have an empty OS partition. If the OS get virus damaged I can reinstall and have all my software ready, without plugging in extra hard drives.
I think MS will fail some day in the future. Their software is silly and uninspired.
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On a touch screen device mimicking gesture on the touchpad is not intuitive. IMO. Better to get the pointer movements and dynamic acceleration down pat. I turn touchpad gestures off in those situations.
As to Market between your quote and CJs is the reason you can't quote market numbers without qualification.
Windows 8 holds over 12 times the market share of OS X on new PCs and Laptops. ;)
Stats....hmmm.
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You qualified your own statistic. Apple, Google and Microsoft each have their own market in which they dominate. Given the headstart Microsoft had this is shocking no matter how you quote the statistics. How can you take a 90%+ lead in all computer devices in 2006 to a 30% share in 2013?
The only reason Microsoft is still in the game is that Apple has apparently lost it's vision. The latest iPhones and iPads are such a small advance on the previous models that it's almost laughable. This is unwise given the history that Microsoft eventually gets things right...
On a touch screen device mimicking gesture on the touchpad is not intuitive. IMO. Better to get the pointer movements and dynamic acceleration down pat. I turn touchpad gestures off in those situations.
As to Market between your quote and CJs is the reason you can't quote market numbers without qualification.
Windows 8 holds over 12 times the market share of OS X on new PCs and Laptops. ;)
Stats....hmmm.
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The latest iPhones and iPads are such a small advance on the previous models that it's almost laughable.
In the PC market yearly upgrades were smaller than this for 20 years and no one ever complained.
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In the PC market yearly upgrades were smaller than this for 20 years and no one ever complained.
That's true, and iOS has such a huge inventory of software that doing something to make it incompatible would be silly.
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You qualified your own statistic. Apple, Google and Microsoft each have their own market in which they dominate. Given the headstart Microsoft had this is shocking no matter how you quote the statistics. How can you take a 90%+ lead in all computer devices in 2006 to a 30% share in 2013?
...
How about if you quote the stats like this; Add Mobile phone and PDA units to the first percentage and it no longer looks drastic at all. Microsoft never played in that arena at all and only started last year, so I don't know what you mean by head start.
The 2nd post in this thread says it.
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I think you two are looking at it from different perspectives. It really depends if you consider smartphones/tablets as computers or not. To me it's Apples and Oranges - they have nothing in common.
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I refer back to my previous comment; I imagine in the 70's, mainframe users would have looked down on Microcomputers as "silly toys"... Now they have all but replaced mainframes.
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How about if you quote the stats like this; Add Mobile phone and PDA units to the first percentage and it no longer looks drastic at all. Microsoft never played in that arena at all and only started last year, so I don't know what you mean by head start.
That's not true. Microsoft has been trying to get in on the mobile trend since the days of Pocket PCs. They had some success with Windows CE back then, because there was little else available other than Palm and Blackberry, but they've been trying and failing to catch up to the iPhone for six years now.
I refer back to my previous comment; I imagine in the 70's, mainframe users would have looked down on Microcomputers as "silly toys"... Now they have all but replaced mainframes.
The difference is that microcomputers used the exact same physical UI for the end user as mainframes/minicomputers - first a keyboard and text display, and then a graphical display and mouse as well. Microcomputer manufacturers didn't invent some gimmicky new interface when the one that was already the standard was entirely adequate, so once the hardware caught up, there was basically no reason not to just use micros. If microcomputer manufacturers had gotten it into their head that they should fundamentally alter the way the user interacted with the computer, it would've been a different story.
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And don't forget punched cards and paper tapes!
T
The difference is that microcomputers used the exact same physical UI for the end user as mainframes/minicomputers - first a keyboard and text display, and then a graphical display and mouse as well. Microcomputer manufacturers didn't invent some gimmicky new interface when the one that was already the standard was entirely adequate, so once the hardware caught up, there was basically no reason not to just use micros. If microcomputer manufacturers had gotten it into their head that they should fundamentally alter the way the user interacted with the computer, it would've been a different story.
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I refer back to my previous comment; I imagine in the 70's, mainframe users would have looked down on Microcomputers as "silly toys"... Now they have all but replaced mainframes.
i know you've said you did some "content creation", the buzz phrase people seem to use, on a tablet, but really very, very few people create anything on tablets and phones. For the vast majority, these are simply the hardware to "consume content".
I still have no compelling reason to own a tablet or a smart phone- my latop, desktop and ancient nokia phone lets me do all I need to do, and then some.
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And don't forget punched cards and paper tapes!
Those were storage media - how people loaded things into the computer, not how they interacted with it. (Well, not by the time micros came around, anyway - the days of the "priesthood" feeding the mundane user/programmers' punch cards, made with a keypunch, into the machine and returning the results on more punch cards had already given way to the users directly interacting with the mainframe via terminals.)
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I think you two are looking at it from different perspectives. It really depends if you consider smartphones/tablets as computers or not. To me it's Apples and Oranges - they have nothing in common.
Nonsense. That's likes saying fish aren't animals, they're fish, or birds aren't animals, they're birds. Clearly ridiculous.
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OK then. I'll try and dumb it down.
"I think you two are looking at it from different perspectives. It really depends if you consider smartphones/tablets as being the same as desktops/laptops or not. To me it's Apples and Oranges - they have nothing in common."
Yes, to use your logic smartphones/tablets are computers the same as Apples and Oranges are both fruit. But do you consider Apples and Oranges to be the same even though they are both fruit? Personally i don't.
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i know you've said you did some "content creation", the buzz phrase people seem to use, on a tablet, but really very, very few people create anything on tablets and phones. For the vast majority, these are simply the hardware to "consume content".
I still have no compelling reason to own a tablet or a smart phone- my latop, desktop and ancient nokia phone lets me do all I need to do, and then some.
There are many excellent music production apps for tablets from the "big names". Here's just one of them:
http://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/maschine/maschine-for-ios/imaschine/
Not a replacement for a desktop/laptop but the technology is getting there rapidly.
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iOS is basically a single user version of OS X, if you look under the bonnet. Android is a Linux kernel with a Java front end. Blackberry is based on QNX, which Amiga OS should have been had they not botched it.
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There's really only one way to respond to this:
Anyone who bets against size reduction for the computers have not been paying attention the last 60 years.
Devices that integrate a screen may grow in size to accommodate the screen size in some cases, but all else keep shrinking.
We used to have full towers in computer stores. Now mainstream electronics stores often don't even sell computers in small ATX cases; a substantial number of the models come "baked in" to monitors, and there's a rapidly growing market for "TV sticks" that are basically Linux/Android ARM computers the size of credit cards or less, that you plug directly into your HDMI slot on your TV/monitor with no cable, and more and more mobile devices supports MHL or other ways of wirelessly mirroring the screen.
Meanwhile the desktop market as a whole is stagnant, and the laptop market isn't doing much better.
There is basically no reason to assume that these trends won't continue:
* Devices will get smaller, as capability per square cm grows faster than most users needs.
* Devices will increasingly be wireless; even many desktops these days use wireless keyboards and mice, and alternatives for wireless connection to screens are becoming more and more common.
* Mobile devices will get more features of typical desktops as their performance and capacity increases, and wireless connectivity improves. You can already install apps that let you run full Linux desktops on most Android devices, exporting the display over the network via VNC etc., and you can expect that with things like Miracast those capabilities will improve.
It will not take long before the typical mobile sized device is as fast as what typical users expects of desktops and laptops - a large part of the reason the desktop and laptop market is stagnating is that people are not replacing them very often any more, as they are "fast enough" for most users. When mobile sized devices are fast enough, and wireless display and input support is good enough, there's very little reason for most users to want a typical "PC" device, over a range of variations from the "TV stick" to mobile devices that connect wirelessly to their TV or "laptop shells", or over tablets with docks.
So while not all of us will use our tablets or phones as our main computing device, you should expect size of the "computing element" whether embedded in a larger device or standalone, for mainstream users, to keep shrinking, and you should expect to not need a cable to it other than for power.
Of course there will be exceptions. There will always be people who need more than average for whatever reason (says the guy with a 15 drive slot Lian Li tower case under the stairs). But that will be fringe uses.
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OK then. I'll try and dumb it down.
"I think you two are looking at it from different perspectives. It really depends if you consider smartphones/tablets as being the same as desktops/laptops or not. To me it's Apples and Oranges - they have nothing in common."
If you mean desktops and laptops, why didn't you just write that in the first place? Instead you write computers, which includes anything from the largest super computers to the smallest 8bit hobby boards.
Yes, to use your logic smartphones/tablets are computers the same as Apples and Oranges are both fruit. But do you consider Apples and Oranges to be the same even though they are both fruit? Personally i don't.
Apples and oranges have a few things in common, and so do desktops and mobiles.
Maybe I'm just looking into these things to much :)
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There's really only one way to respond to this:
Anyone who bets against size reduction for the computers have not been paying attention the last 60 years.
Devices that integrate a screen may grow in size to accommodate the screen size in some cases, but all else keep shrinking.
We used to have full towers in computer stores. Now mainstream electronics stores often don't even sell computers in small ATX cases; a substantial number of the models come "baked in" to monitors, and there's a rapidly growing market for "TV sticks" that are basically Linux/Android ARM computers the size of credit cards or less, that you plug directly into your HDMI slot on your TV/monitor with no cable, and more and more mobile devices supports MHL or other ways of wirelessly mirroring the screen.
Meanwhile the desktop market as a whole is stagnant, and the laptop market isn't doing much better.
There is basically no reason to assume that these trends won't continue:
* Devices will get smaller, as capability per square cm grows faster than most users needs.
* Devices will increasingly be wireless; even many desktops these days use wireless keyboards and mice, and alternatives for wireless connection to screens are becoming more and more common.
* Mobile devices will get more features of typical desktops as their performance and capacity increases, and wireless connectivity improves. You can already install apps that let you run full Linux desktops on most Android devices, exporting the display over the network via VNC etc., and you can expect that with things like Miracast those capabilities will improve.
It will not take long before the typical mobile sized device is as fast as what typical users expects of desktops and laptops - a large part of the reason the desktop and laptop market is stagnating is that people are not replacing them very often any more, as they are "fast enough" for most users. When mobile sized devices are fast enough, and wireless display and input support is good enough, there's very little reason for most users to want a typical "PC" device, over a range of variations from the "TV stick" to mobile devices that connect wirelessly to their TV or "laptop shells", or over tablets with docks.
So while not all of us will use our tablets or phones as our main computing device, you should expect size of the "computing element" whether embedded in a larger device or standalone, for mainstream users, to keep shrinking, and you should expect to not need a cable to it other than for power.
Of course there will be exceptions. There will always be people who need more than average for whatever reason (says the guy with a 15 drive slot Lian Li tower case under the stairs). But that will be fringe uses.
My Galaxy S4 is at least (if not more) powerful than my dual core Penryn MBP.
I have Cyanogen 10.1 for the phone side and Debian/KDE silently running alongside it in the background ready to ssh into/remote X11 and it works very very well.
This use case will become more and more common in the future.
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Hey hbarcellos, I see you have other tastes beside MSX :D Nice to see you around here, too.
No, I don't blame Microsoft for the fall of Commodore: Commodore was leeching the C64 too long and they didn't invest enough on Amiga technology, being unable to update it properly for almos 10 years. I know the story of the once mighty Commodore and I don't have any love for that company.
But Microsoft has made computing boring, ugly, soul-less, inefficient, stupid and offensive. I hate their products because of the BAD feeling they have, the poor technology decisions they have always taken and their most inner stupidity. They used to call Amiga a "games machine": "huh, colors, music, mouse.. what are those for, gaming?"
They damaged the industry beyond repair with their dominance based on strong and agresive marketing and distribution chain mafia-like politics, to put their atrocious products down our throats.
I HOPE they consume, suffer, die and disapear with pain and hunger.
Gaula92, I was writing you a reply so long, but so long, that Amiga.org punished me by logging me out. I just found that out when I submitted the reply!
Took me a couple of days to recover myself from the trauma, but now I'm finally writing back to you...
L8r we talk about your anti-Microsoft anger, but for now, hey, what's your MRC user name?
Rgds,
HB.
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Must be at 14% by now, this aimless thread has been going for so long.
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I'm curious why people as so quick to discount iOS and Android as "Not proper operating systems"... It has the feel of someone in the early 80's discounting microcomputers as not real computers...
The truth is, most people use their tablet/iPad/smart phone for almost all day to day computing tasks. The desktop is becoming as much a relic as mainframes and minicomputers have now become.
Of course they're proper operating systems. People who want to defend Windows like to say this, because that makes them feel better... I guess. After all, it's Microsoft themselves that kind of begged the question, with Windows 8. They thrust this WinRT/Metro tablet OS in every desktop user's face, and said "this is the future". They even started calling that subsystem "Modern" and the old, desktop-class Windows "classic" or "legacy".
Truth is, all of Windows is getting their ass kicked by Android. Yes, that's in units, not money. But the real strength of an OS is only one thing: the applications. We Amiga users ought to grok that... doesn't matter if your OS is better, only what you can actually do with it on a practical basis. When you look at those numbers, it's easy to imagine that the mainstream of software support will move away from Windows.
And that's a big problem for Microsoft, because "we are the default, we have the applications" is all that Microsoft has ever had in their favor. They started with absolutely horrible operating system technology. The NT kernel was good, but never any better than the various UNIX-derivatives. Their APIs have been largely sub-standard.. early Windows designers set out not to build the best graphical OS, but the hardest to translate to more rationally designed operating systems (which would include Linux, AmigaOS, MacOS, BeOS, most others). And Microsoft have been arrogant jerks in the way they've supported the end user. In short, a huge number of users are on Windows because they have to be. If they had another viable option -- and that means full support from applications -- more would move than would stick with Windows.
And of course, both Android and iOS are "real" operating systems. After all, Android IS real Linux. It doesn't come with all the stuff you'd want in desktop Linux, but it's the same underlying OS that powers embedded devices, media players, most every network router or switch, most servers, and most supercomputers. The Android UI started out optimized for phones. It took them two years to optimize it for tablets... even though companies started selling Android tablets a year before that. Now they're selling Android desktops. There is absolutely no reason Android can't move to the desktop.. but it will take Google's interest in doing that to make it any good.
And that's kind of inevitable. Last year, not quite 3x as many Android copies as Windows made it into some kind of personal computer. Next year, it'll be over 4x. That means that, pretty much already, there are mobile Android users who see their device as their primary computing platform, and either don't use Windows (or other desktop OSs) regularly, don't use them at all, or at least not for their personal computing. These people will get much more out of an Android desktop than a Windows desktop. And there will be more of those people every year.. that's just what the numbers tell us.
These numbers also suggest that if Apple could bridge MacOS and iOS in some way, making it more of a situational thing than an OS thing, the desktop-vs-mobile question, they could be just as powerful as Microsoft, at least numbers-wise. And if they respect the desktop model, rather than ignoring it as Microsoft did, they'll get desktop converts, not simply "iPhone coattails" buyers of the desktop systems. MacOS and iOS are, of course, both built on "DarwinOS", which is just the BSD UNIX bit mixed up with CMU's Mach kernel (plus decades of Apple tweaks) and NeXTStep. This may not be on supercomputers, but it's just as much a desktop-level OS as Windows.
While I don't know about iOS, Android actually supports desktop things now. The presentation is based on your Home Shell (GUI Shell), so it's already possible to run multiple applications at once (the thing end-users think of as multitasking), panelized, on any Android device. The apps themselves not only support resizing, but any application that doesn't internally support resizing has that managed by Android. So it's not hard to image a future desktop Home Shell for Android that supports multiple apps in overlapping windows.. every application already could support that.
Also consider that today's mobile devices are more powerful than PCs from ten years ago. You have quad-core processors at 2.5GHz, 3GB RAM, 128GB storage (with expansion), 802.11n networking, etc. The mobile device form factor is entirely optimized for mobile, of course.. that makes sense. The whole idea of a touch interface is a compromise for mobility... it's good when you have a pocket computer, but it's a terribly stupid idea for the desktop, which permits much more accurate and fast things like mice and Wacoms. No one should be suggesting that today's 10" tablets are going to replace a hex-core i7 desktop with 64GB RAM, many TBs of storage, and multiple qHD monitors (eg, something like what I'm tying this on). But the level of performance in a tablet of today, repackaged for the desktop, is plenty of performance for most PC users.
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I would have felt better if you used Ubuntu* as a substitute for Windows instead of Android :/
*By Ubuntu i am referring to their eventful transition to smartphones ;)
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Of course they're proper operating systems. People who want to defend Windows like to say this, because that makes them feel better... I guess. After all, it's Microsoft themselves that kind of begged the question, with Windows 8. They thrust this WinRT/Metro tablet OS in every desktop user's face, and said "this is the future". They even started calling that subsystem "Modern" and the old, desktop-class Windows "classic" or "legacy".
Microsoft messes up every other version of Windows and then the next version is a fix. They have spent a lot of money shoving the Windows 8 disaster down people's throats. The software business is under attack from free office applications, Google and the move to mobile. Microsoft has messed up the XBox also with being "arrogant controlling jerks" and is losing market share to Sony with this round of consoles. The Nokia buy of last resorts to break into the mobile market has already seen sales fall and is looking more and more like another disaster.
Apple could give away or nearly give away their Mac OS X and probably put Windows out of business on the x86_64. Apple already announced a free upgrade for OS X which is a savvy move. I don't know how much the Justice Department would put up with a price war and Apple may be content with the higher margin sales for OS X. Apple has missed the boat by being too closed and their Apple TV should have been better with games to take some market from consoles (it may have required staying with x86_64 instead of ARM). Apple does understand the importance of economies of scale and vertical integration where they have stealthily become one of the most advanced processor manufacturers. They have bet on ARM so the question is how far can ARM go in performance? There is a big gap between the power efficiency of ARM and the performance of x86_64. The A7 going 64 bit is a bit of a compromise for this problem as it's not beneficial for a phone (even if they say it's up to twice as fast) but they can use it in other devices like iPads and laptops where it may be an advantage. The new AARCH64/ARM64/ARMv8 ISA has advantages but going 64 bit can waste a lot of cache as this is now another 32 bit fixed length RISC encoding with a little better code density than 64 bit PowerPC but not as good as x86_64. It needs 50% more caches than a 32 bit processor designed for maximum code density (and better than Thumb 2). Remember how small the 68k Amiga executables were and how much memory the AmigaOS used? Now think 5%-15% code density improvement for ISA and ABI changes and another 10%-20% for better code optimization. Now throw in 1-2 GB of memory for modern hungrier applications. Do you think such a modern enhanced processor with an efficient OS like AmigaOS could compete with the 64 bit mobile devices that went "big"?
Truth is, all of Windows is getting their ass kicked by Android. Yes, that's in units, not money. But the real strength of an OS is only one thing: the applications. We Amiga users ought to grok that... doesn't matter if your OS is better, only what you can actually do with it on a practical basis. When you look at those numbers, it's easy to imagine that the mainstream of software support will move away from Windows.
I think a lot of the reason why the applications are doing so well is that Android is so open. Android is less efficient and optimized than iOS. How fast can executing byte code in Linux on a portable device be? Perhaps a more efficient but also open OS could come in and displace Android?
These numbers also suggest that if Apple could bridge MacOS and iOS in some way, making it more of a situational thing than an OS thing, the desktop-vs-mobile question, they could be just as powerful as Microsoft, at least numbers-wise. And if they respect the desktop model, rather than ignoring it as Microsoft did, they'll get desktop converts, not simply "iPhone coattails" buyers of the desktop systems. MacOS and iOS are, of course, both built on "DarwinOS", which is just the BSD UNIX bit mixed up with CMU's Mach kernel (plus decades of Apple tweaks) and NeXTStep. This may not be on supercomputers, but it's just as much a desktop-level OS as Windows.
I think Apple has partially bridged the gap between Mac OS X/MacBooks and iOS/iPhone/iPad. They have transfer/synchronization programs and there are several "familiarities" between them. I wonder if they are trying to strengthen ARM to eventually replace the desktops and MacBooks with many core 64 bit ARM processors. They may be able to move to one consolidated more flexible common OS with different user interfaces for different purposes in the future also. I don't know if battery technology can keep up to feed the mobile devices to desktop like performance which they seem to be gambling on with ARM64. Also, when is there enough power to satisfy the phone crowd? I would think apps would become more important after speed and responsiveness become adequate. I think this could be achieved with 32 bit at some savings.
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Linux folks are awaiting Ubuntu tablet version, but I doubt it can knock Android and iOS off the top. Firefox OS seems as moribund as their browser. Blackberry OS doesn't seem to be very popular any more.
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Linux folks are awaiting Ubuntu tablet version, but I doubt it can knock Android and iOS off the top.
Ubuntu is nice on a desktop but it's a big version of Linux with lots of eye candy. I agree, it's probably not going to be a game changer for mobile.
Firefox OS seems as moribund as their browser.
I like the Firefox browser but the versions in the last few years have been slower and buggy.
Blackberry OS doesn't seem to be very popular any more.
Blackberry had the right idea with picking up QNX in 2010. The Blackberry 10 OS is a good and efficient base to build on and a big upgrade from their previous Java based Blackberry OS (although some of the features haven't been brought over yet). The big question is whether Blackberry can get some financing and make appealing phones again. The high end smartphone market seems to be down. The cheap Korean and Chinese phones with Android and lots of software are difficult to compete with too. It will be interesting to see how cheap Apple will go in trying to compete or whether they will stay with the more profitable mid to high end phones. Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak just came out and said Apple should make an Android phone in addition to iOS phones. The Woz coming out and saying that is kind of like Hazy Dave saying Amiga users should be content with UAE on Windows. Well, o.k., Microsoft is more evil than cheap Chinese Android phones ;).
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I like the Firefox browser but the versions in the last few years have been slower and buggy.
Firefox has been getting progressively worse since they started the version-of-the-month club...wish they'd go back to actually taking the time to get something ready for release before releasing it...