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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Gaming => Topic started by: leirbag28 on May 18, 2005, 02:59:23 AM

Title: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: leirbag28 on May 18, 2005, 02:59:23 AM
Check out the New Gaming Systems!!!

Personally, I think the PS3 is the Best to own as it is Backwards compatible with Playstation ONE and Playstation 2!!!!

Please no comments as to who cares about backwards compatibility.............That would be Hypocracy........as many of us do care about it.......We always complain as to how its better to own an A500 because an A1200 is less compatible for games (Baloney of course)

Man..the PS3 is the closest Gaming console to an Amiga...you dont have to throw away all your old cool games that you still like playing.

http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=e3&message.id=13404


New Nintendo GameBoy:

http://gameboy.ign.com/articles/615/615202p1.html

Here are some really cool pictures of the New PS3:
(click on the images for larger sizes)

http://media.ps3.ign.com/articles/614/614619/imgs_1.html


Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on May 18, 2005, 03:12:33 AM
Revolution is backwards compatible with Gamecube and every Nintendo game ever made from NES, Arcade and all the way to N64 will be downloadable into Revolution for free over the internet.

How's that for backwards compatability? :-D

related link:
http://www.nintendo.com/newsarticle?articleid=02ea1a40-ac09-4cdf-9548-91e5a4e78746

Hmmm...Revolution looks like it may fit into a car stereo slot...talk about mobile gaming...

That small attachment they mention to play DVD movies is a screen...  Maybe they are after the 'PSP portable media market' all in one punch.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: adz on May 18, 2005, 03:13:29 AM
Game consoles...meh!
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: leirbag28 on May 18, 2005, 03:35:29 AM
@lou_dias


Hahaha...Impressive!  I did not know that!..........But I hope the X-Box Dies! I dont want that thing geting any ground.

I predict  PS3 will be #1
Nintendo #2
X-Box #3

X-Box will supposedly be somewhat compatible as well....but only the most popular games  (How stupid)

Nintendo made the same stupid HUMONGOUS mistake again of their system not playing DVD's out of the Box.......you have to buy hardware (ahhhhh goodness!  people never learn)  If they go out of business....they deserve it for sheer stupidity.  Although they went all out on this one it seems.........or at least they are trying ten times harder.  Good Job!


Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: neofree on May 18, 2005, 03:38:50 AM
The technical winner:  PS3 - best specs

Winner all around: PS3

I wish Nintendo would make a comeback but they dont seem to have the brains with the marketing gimmicks or bad decisions of not supporting this or that.

While Sony definately tries to get involved in all markets they dont try to undermine and destroy their competition like Microsoft does.  This is the #1 reason why I won't buy Microsoft's deal.  #2 is good though, it's technically a lesser unit.

Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: leirbag28 on May 18, 2005, 03:47:44 AM


To be fair...I am kind of upset that once again the PS3 wont play VCD..although it willplay a massive amounts of CD formats.......more than any other console.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: coldfish on May 18, 2005, 04:01:34 AM
360 will have a good head start on the others, and if indications are correct will be priced very aggressively ($US299-360).  I wouldnt be at all surprised if one or two PS2 owners get tired of waiting for PS3?

...M$ are counting on it.

Quote
X-Box360 will supposedly be somewhat compatible as well....but only the most popular games (How stupid)


Ironically, this is analogous to how the A1200 is partially backward compatible with A500 software and how that compatability is improved with apps like WHDload ect.  
360 will need individual coding to play past Xbox games, at first this will be limited to the more popular titles.

Quote
While Sony definately tries to get involved in all markets they dont try to undermine and destroy their competition like Microsoft does. This is the #1 reason why I won't buy Microsoft's deal. #2 is good though, it's technically a lesser unit.


Sony's tactics are debatable, just ask Nintendo and Sega about the gritty details.

Following your reasoning in #2 why would anyone presently buy a PS2, when both GC and Xbox are technically superior?

Technical specifications and theoretical performance are never good reasons to prefer one machine over another, surely a present day Amiga user would know that?

 :-D
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: neofree on May 18, 2005, 04:24:22 AM
The best reasons to get a PS2 today are very clear though.

1. More games, and more good ones.  They have the biggest market and will most likely have the most amount of games being developed, and not "just games", but good ones.  I have to say my time spent with my PS2 rival my Commodore/Amiga days.  I could not say that of any other machine until the PS2.  We're finally living in a time where cools things are happening now, like they were in the old days.  In my opinion anyway.  PS2 to me is like the Commodore of today.  Nintendo *was* pretty good too.  Microsoft gives me a hollow empty feeling.  They're about money and power, not about imagination and creativity.

2. Cheaper games.  As with any new system the games are much higher at first. Sure, this will be true of PS3, but I won't be buying one for at least a year anyway until prices come down.  XBos 360 games will cost more. And at the high prices, they just arent worth it. I'd feel so much guilt purchasing the overpriced games to even enjoy them.  I always wait until they are much cheaper.  What's OLD news to the gamers who have to have the latest stuff is the new and awesome to me. :)  Funny how others do this with movies, and I got to see the new movies... :)

Oh and how do you figure a GC is superior?  The PS2 has a higher graphics capabilities and can use DVD format.

Thanks,

Neofree
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: mikrucio on May 18, 2005, 08:46:33 AM
yeah i love my ps2 i got over 200 games.
all burnt ofcourse HAHAHAHA! i love it.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Linchpin on May 18, 2005, 09:02:07 AM
@ mikrucio

Good for you.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Bezzen on May 18, 2005, 09:38:10 AM
Quote
While Sony definately tries to get involved in all markets they dont try to undermine and destroy their competition like Microsoft does. This is the #1 reason why I won't buy Microsoft's deal.


Did you miss the PlayStation launch?  :-D

Sony was considered evil for a while there until everyone had a PS in their home had convieniently forgot about Nintendo, Sega and 3DO (and Amiga).

Oh, and I'll be buying at least two next-gen consoles. :-)
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: rayt on May 18, 2005, 09:42:04 AM
Quote
yeah i love my ps2 i got over 200 games.
all burnt ofcourse HAHAHAHA! i love it.


Yeah me too, besides gran turismo4 which cant be burned.. Playstion rulez, w00t w00t **** the M$ XBOX!!1 :-D


EDITED By TheMagicM.  
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Martin_Lee on May 18, 2005, 10:20:20 AM
that new gameboy is really looking nice!
also it mean continuing support for the platform which is nice, seeing i still own a GBA SP
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Linchpin on May 18, 2005, 12:43:06 PM
Quote
Yeah me too, besides gran turismo4 which cant be burned


Wrong. But seen as this is piracy, we better not discuss any further.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: rayt on May 18, 2005, 01:26:49 PM
Quote
Wrong. But seen as this is piracy, we better not discuss any further.


I have an original gt4 copy here. So if I would like to make a backup it shouldn't be considered illegal.
I tried to burn a full gt4 dvd9 image with a dvd+r dual layer burner. It burned fine, but in the ps2 it always failed to load after the "copyright screen".
So i googled a bit and found out that this is because dvd+r dual layer discs are for Opposite Track Path recording while the original Gt4 disc is made using Parallel Track Path.
So either one would need a rip patch that makes it fit on a normal 4.5gb disc or dual layer discs(dvd-r?) that support ptp, which arent available yet iirc.


edit: anyway, gran turismo4 is well worth its money even if you buy it, its the best racing simulator out there on any platform
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: amigamad on May 18, 2005, 02:54:40 PM
All the new systems look good but i bet not many people buy the nintendo there consoles always seem way to underpowered to compete .ps3 or the xbox would be the only consoles i would consider buying .The only thing that puts me off is the short life of the lasers they use in there drives and the blue screen of death wich early xboxes had.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Dragster on May 18, 2005, 04:22:59 PM
Quote


I have an original gt4 copy here. So if I would like to make a backup it shouldn't be considered illegal.

Same here.. I'm a ps2 fan with over 350 games and bought GT4 becuase it's worth  every cent and it can't be copied!

Quote


I tried to burn a full gt4 dvd9 image with a dvd+r dual layer burner. It burned fine, but in the ps2 it always failed to load after the "copyright screen".



Exactly the same happened here, anyway, I can't read it even with my DMS4 modded PS2 with the DVD-DL patch of latest toxic bios.

Quote


So i googled a bit and found out that this is because dvd+r dual layer discs are for Opposite Track Path recording while the original Gt4 disc is made using Parallel Track Path.

So either one would need a rip patch that makes it fit on a normal 4.5gb disc or dual layer discs(dvd-r?) that support ptp, which arent available yet iirc.



Right, you should read ps2nfo.com.. there's a patch for the GT4 ISO that can make it readable on DL DVD discs even if your mod chip doesn't support it. I have NOT tested it myself though.

Quote

edit: anyway, gran turismo4 is well worth its money even if you buy it, its the best racing simulator out there on any platform


I've read that Forza Motorsport on the M$ console is good too, but I refuse to believe M$ can develop something *good*, so I Agree about GT4 ;-)

Cheers!

D.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: on May 18, 2005, 04:37:44 PM
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Linchpin on May 18, 2005, 05:00:17 PM
Well trust me, it can be done (GT4 on DVD-R).

I own the original, and a backup copy that i use most day's.

PS2 games are too expensive to scratch. Most of my disks have never even been in the PS2.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on May 18, 2005, 11:20:27 PM
Quote

neofree wrote:
Oh and how do you figure a GC is superior?  The PS2 has a higher graphics capabilities and can use DVD format.


Huh?  The GC's graphics capability completely outclass the PS2.  Also, you can buy the Panasonic Q instead of the Nintendo Gamecube to play DVDs and GC games.  Playing DVD's is not a major technological feat.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on May 18, 2005, 11:38:07 PM
Quote

amigamad wrote:
All the new systems look good but i bet not many people buy the nintendo there consoles always seem way to underpowered to compete.


Huh?
powerwise:
Xbox>GC>PS2
N64>PS1
SNES>SeGA Genesis/Masterdrive
NES>Atari 7800

PS3>Revolution>Xbox 360
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: leirbag28 on May 19, 2005, 12:59:46 AM
@Amigamad
@lou_dias

Nintendo being underpowered is not always the right descrition.......sometimes Nintendo simply lacks features..essential ones such as CDROM and DVD playback..........no one wants to have to spend more money on a Panasonic Game Cube just to play DVD's like a PS2 or XBox (Required a remote)

Silly Silly Silly.

It is important to note......I was never ever satisfied with any game console ever till this day!......the only game system I have ever purchased was............YEP!

THE CD32!!!     Coolest freaking system packed with more features than any console ever!  with an SX32 of  course and FMV card :-)

The PS2 came the closest as its upgrade is very similar to the SX32.

I came close to buying one after the Linux Kit was released............my biggest question of all time is:

Why the Heck did they make WinUAE for X-Box instead of the PS2 first????

please dont tell me its more powerful.as I know that....but the PS2 is the more popular and the proper one to put it on.

it just makes more sence.

Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Gav on May 19, 2005, 02:11:56 AM
Haha bunch of cheap arse sods lol i buy all my games and its nice to come home with something in your hand instead of some downloaded crap....
Just my opinion...
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: mikrucio on May 19, 2005, 02:43:33 AM
the ps2 IS the most powerfull.

however it IS the hardest to program.

just look at games like ghosthunter, primal, gt4, god of war, devil may cry 1 and 3... there are heaps of polished games.
what game has the best graphs on the xbox?

i dont know but i seen halo 1 and 2 and, to be frank, it looks  like ps1 graphics.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Darklight on May 19, 2005, 02:55:26 AM
Seriously, there's quite a bit wrong with that post, but I'm not going to go into all of it.  Basically - You're right, the PS2 is the hardest to program for, and it is often not utilised fully.  However, looking at the specs, it's extremely underpowered compared to GC/Xbox, even just in pure CPU speed.  Its texturing capabilities are much lower, its audio output is nowhere near Xbox quality.  If the PS2 is so powerful, then why, even with all these brilliant programmers (Rockstar, SquareEnix etc) are 'Jaggies' so prevalent in many PS2 games?  And as for Halo 2 looking like PS1 graphics, well.....I think you need your eyes tested.  Halo 2 may not be up to the standard of HL2 or Doom 3, but I think it's safe to say it's in the top 10% of graphic quality for games released in the last 12 months on all platforms.  
Oh, btw, another point with the PS2 - why if it is so powerful are the Resident Evil 4 team having to practically halve the framerate, and drop all textures down to 16 bit instead of 24 as well as dropping the number of polys in the main character model to even get it to run on the PS2?  Obviously there are some great games on the PS2, but it was released a full year ahead of the Xbox or GC, and it's clear that it's simply not as powerful as the competition.  That may all change with the PS3 though  :lol:
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: coldfish on May 19, 2005, 03:05:07 AM
what Darklight said.

---

To all those PS2 fanboys who use "backups" yet hate Xbox:

Bwahahahaa! You dumb b*st*rds!

M$ couldnt be happier that you're pirating Sony property!!!  Youre actually helping them weaken Sony revenue!

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

The worst thing you could do to M$ is to buy an Xbox, seeing as they lose money on each console...

-on topic-

Seeing as I have all this-gen consoles, I'll probably get all the next-gen consoles sooner or later.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Bodie on May 19, 2005, 04:01:32 AM
@coldfish

Do you post at Atomic too?
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: mikrucio on May 19, 2005, 05:01:36 AM
Looking at the "specs" i could never believe an amiga 500 could produce such fine graphically polished games like, flashback, superfrog... etc
and all those brilliant demos that exist.

looking at the specs is a bad idea.
because there are so many programming tricks out there.
youd be stupid to think otherwise.

the xbox is a peecee. and it is easy to program.
everyone has access to a peecee. thats why xbox is so popular.

but at 20 million consoles to 80million going sonys way
there are more smart people than dumb people it appears.

good thing the xbox 2 is not a peecee but a dedicated peice of hardware. but xbox sucks anyhow. billy is a poof.

oh and the guys heads in halo are not polygons they are squares. it;s so funny..
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Darklight on May 19, 2005, 06:39:44 AM
@ Mikrucio

You're right, looking at the specs is a bad idea.  The Amiga 500 was capable (and still is) of more than most people would give it credit for, hence its popularity during its short lifespan.  However, if you look at the capabilities of the PS2 compared to the GC or the Xbox, it's simply not up to snuff.  I'm not an Xbox fanboy, I own both the GC and the Xbox, and have quite often considered buying a PS2, if only for the FF and GT series.  But simply stating the PS2 is the most powerful is quite ignorant and 'fanboyish' if I may say so.  The PS2 was released a full year (if not more, not sure of the dates, I think it was August 2001?) ahead of the GC and Xbox.  This lead, and its backwards compatibility with the PS1 games and hardware (controllers etc) led to the 80 million to 20 million figures you speak of.  Nobody in their right mind goes out to buy a PS2 for its hardware, they buy it for its games, and Sony has brilliant 3rd party support.  PS2 games look good, but take a look at a multi-platform game, and the PS2 will always come out worst, even though most of the time its developed on PS2 hardware and ported using Renderware, so your argument about the Xbox being easy to develop for is pretty much rendered (excuse the pun  :-D ) useless there.
The point is, all three consoles have their positives and negatives, so there's no point looking at hard evidence and swearing that exactly the opposite is true.
(BTW, your comments about Halo MUST be purely to start a flame war, because nobody is that blind.)

Anyway, go back to your trolling if you must  :lol:
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: rayt on May 19, 2005, 06:43:43 AM
Quote
M$ couldnt be happier that you're pirating Sony property!!! Youre actually helping them weaken Sony revenue!


Well, at least for me, its not like I'm not also pirating M$ property  :-P
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: coldfish on May 19, 2005, 06:44:24 AM
rayt: heh, you puttz!

---

bodie:
Quote
Do you post at Atomic too?


Cover blown! cover blown! PULL OUT!

---

Yeah I loiter here and there, spouting the same poorly researched BS and over-emotional/irrational opinions to anyone that will listen.

I have to say my Amiga-fan-status has reduced to probably just morbid curiosity in the last year or so though.  I'm more a console, emulation, PC-hardware geek these days.

...Bodie_CI5?



Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Linchpin on May 19, 2005, 09:02:35 AM
Quote
To all those PS2 fanboys who use "backups" yet hate Xbox:


Just becouse i make a working copy of all my disks, does that make me a "fanboy" or what not?

I dont think so.

Didnt we all make a backup copy of WB? I sure as hell know i did. Infact.. most of my CD's are backed up.

I wouldnt say so much if they only cost £10...
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: coldfish on May 20, 2005, 11:39:35 AM
Sorry LinchpiN,

I didnt name you specifically, so theres no need to be sensitive about the word "fanboy" -is- there?

If only everyone who used modchips & "backups" was as honest and well meaning as your good self, and not software pirates like rayt, for example.

As far as software preservation goes, most companies will replace a damaged disk for a nominal fee (sometimes just postage) on return of the original.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Holley on May 21, 2005, 05:23:45 PM
:laughing: This whole thread is just so funny.

I had a PS2, was unimpressed, and it's the first console I've sold since my Mk1 Master System.  I bought an XBox on launch day, and it still works fine now and I'm often pleasantly surprised by the quality of new games, I also have a Gamecube (though I'm on the 2nd one of those).  I don't own any 'backed up' or copied games for any of them.

While the XBox's graphics are technically better, there's plenty of Gamecube games that are simply more fun to play (I've not found this on PS2, the outstanding games on which are usually ported to other platforms).  GT4 on PS2 is good, but the trackside graphics are so poor, Forza Motorsport also feels more realistic too (when you switch off the driver aids), I was considering buying another PS2 just to play it, until I tried it out for myself.

Supporting MS, Sony, Nintendo, EA or Apple is supporting a company that has tried devious methods to crush others, and all work the system to extract money from the public rather than earning their income by providing genuinely worthwile products.  Anybody who lives in the Western world can't help supporting greedy self-serving scum - that what capitalism is all about, lol.

In short - all the current and future games consoles will suck in some way, arguing over which is better is like arguing over why Marmite tastes (or does not taste) nice.  Anyone who likes console type games will buy something from the next generation, and then pointlessly argue about why its better.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Speelgoedmannetje on May 23, 2005, 12:57:26 PM
I don't care about PS3, Nintendo Revolution or X-Box 360, I just want to play The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion
http://www.elderscrolls.com/art/obliv_screenshots_01.htm
:-o  8-)
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: fx on May 23, 2005, 01:21:43 PM
Having just watched about 8 hours of material from E3 I can just say this, PlayStation 3 looks frickin' awesome, Xbox 360 will surely be a nice system aswell. I'm not sure what Nintendo is up too but being a Nintendo fanboy I'm pretty certain it will be a great system in it's own way (and have the best games :). But I think the battle this time will be between Microsoft and Sony.

Oh and this (http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2420&p=5) was pretty fun.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: DonnyEMU on May 23, 2005, 02:37:15 PM
I hate postings like this because the "A500" alone couldn't come up with these graphics, a finely gifted ARTIST and designer who works to the best of his MEDIUM does.. By saying the "machine" produced this, we are forgetting the fine work of the artist.. A lot of people forget artist names like Jim Sachs who's talent could make a 64 game/picture look better than it ever should have. You guys have been totally forgetting the developers/artists that make these things shine.

Hardware is one thing, but it's talented programmers and artists who really make this happen. Also comparing an Amiga to a PS2 or X-box really isn't a fair comparison because these machines also render polygons using hardware 3d.. You still need an artist to make it look cool. Most good artists can make up for difficiencies in any platform.

Anyone can make a sucky game on any platform.. The point I'd make is saying one's better than the other just really is like starting a thread that Star Trek is better than Star Wars..

I love the number of "backseat drivers" here who talk about producing a game based on what they know.. A good game is a masterpiece and should be treated like that.. And for those that wonder I have my name on 5 childrens game titles on the PC (in the past), so I know the process.

When you talk about who wins, it's usually who has the most content and what games sold the most.. People who buy a playstation won't be buying it to play Mario, and people who buy an X-box won't be buying it to play Mario either.. I think the machines are also geared to whomever the content is..

A nintendo might for instance not wanna have the top cpu power but know that they are banking on people wanting to run all their retro content and current stuff because they like that "type" of content..

A xbox buyer might want games he sees on the PC that are geared at his age group and want to run on the big screen.

A playstation buyer might not be in either camp but want games set at the age group 13-18..

So it's about nitches, not necessarily who has the best hardware will win..
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Holley on May 23, 2005, 10:16:18 PM
Well, in my opinion, at his prime Mohammed Ali was way better than Diet Coke ...

I'm with Donny on this one, I bow to your eloquent response dude :-)
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: on May 23, 2005, 10:41:06 PM
Quote

Holley wrote:
Well, in my opinion, at his prime Mohammed Ali was way better than Diet Coke ...


And Alan Shearer was better than Chicken & Beans too! :-D
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Waccoon on May 24, 2005, 09:47:18 AM
Quote
mdma:  Never underestimate the power that a young child has over their parents. Nintendo are THE masters at exploiting this.

You know how many times I've walked into a game store and heard some parent ask a salesperson, "Which machine is best?  I dunno what to get my kid for his/her birthday."

I think most game consoles these days, at least at system launch, are bought by teens with their own money.

Quote
mikrucio:  the ps2 IS the most powerfull.

Careful.  It's fair to say the PS2 is the most complex, but power != performance != speed.  PS2 is very, very fast when rendering raw polygons, but is pretty awful once you turn all the effects on.  The PS2 really isn't a very gutsy system compared to the other two.

Sony's tools are more to blame than the messy architecture, too.  Most PS2 developers buy their tools from 3rd party developers.  Sony can afford to shift responsibility that way.

It also depends how you harness power.  Some of my Dreamcast games look better, and some games load in seconds while others take half a minute.  It's kind of pathetic how inconsistent things are on the PS2.

Oh, and what about all those ports they stripped away on later revisions of the console?  A few years from now, I doubt the PS3 is still going to have 6 USB ports and 3 ethernet ports.  What on Earth is Sony thinking?

Quote
coldfish:  M$ couldnt be happier that you're pirating Sony property!!! Youre actually helping them weaken Sony revenue!

It's actually debatable whether piracy hurts or helps a platform (and I'm not talking about what the companies think about it).

Quote
mikrucio:  the xbox is a peecee. and it is easy to program.  everyone has access to a peecee. thats why xbox is so popular.

Well, at the least x86 is easy to program in assembler, and has more tools available than any other CPU.  I'm not sure how the graphics chip differs from what nVidia has released on the PC.

Quote
Darklight:  The Amiga 500 was capable (and still is) of more than most people would give it credit for, hence its popularity during its short lifespan.

Short?  The OCS chipset was hardly changed throughout the lifespan of the Amiga.  I was very, very disappointed with AGA, and knew Commodore was finished at the time I bought my 1200.  Commodore knew damn well they had a good chipset and felt no need to improve it.

Quote
LinchpiN:  Didnt we all make a backup copy of WB?

Yeah, but CDs and DVDs don't wear out like floppies do.  :-)

Face it, when was the last time you retired a damaged backup?  Unless you're a klutz, of course.

Quote
Holley:  Supporting MS, Sony, Nintendo, EA or Apple is supporting a company that has tried devious methods to crush others, and all work the system to extract money from the public rather than earning their income by providing genuinely worthwile products.

Thank you.  It really ticks me off when people whine about Microsoft.  Apple has a long history of dumping products shortly after launch.  If Microsoft suported their products the way Apple did, the government would have broken them up a long time ago.  Don't get me started about the dreadful MacOS 8.1 "superpatch" before they released 8.5.

Oh yeah, and don't get me started on Sony, either.

Quote
fx:  PlayStation 3 looks frickin' awesome

Much of what they showed off left me shaking my head.  The F1 demo really disgusted me as the physics were attrocious.  Killzone is also the ultimate demo -- all staged graphics and no indication that AI is controlling the bad guys.  It's like watching those rediculous Ruby demos released by ATI.  Games are not movies, and never will be.

I buy game machines to play games, and only after I know what games are going to be available.

I also never buy a system at launch (though I did get my Dreamcast after a few months).  There's too many reliability issues.

After a year or so, I might consider a PS3.  The original XBox has nothing that interests me, and I might get a used GameCube to play only three titles.  I've got more than a dozen PS2 games, and about 30 PSX titles.

I'm no fan of Sony, but I can't say Microsoft or Nintendo did very well over the last few years.  I don't see any real changes happening soon.  I'm sorely disappointed with Nintendo.  Everything went sour with N64 and they just haven't improved.

Quote
DonnyEMU:  A good game is a masterpiece and should be treated like that.

Have you noticed that despite the invention of memory cards, even the "masterpieces" are too damned short?  I like Sly Cooper, but after you take out the cut-scenes (which you can't skip over), it equates to, like, 5 hours of gameplay the first time through, and maybe a half-hour the second time.

I'm boycotting Half-Life 2 because of Steam, but I hear it's in the same camp.  12 hours of gameplay or so.

Where's all this revolutionary AI we hear so much about?
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: coldfish on May 25, 2005, 04:30:18 AM
The Killzone2 "demo" on PS3 was a render.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Holley on May 25, 2005, 11:06:00 PM
Quote
Where's all this revolutionary AI we hear so much about?

This is where Halo 2 shines, my son and I have played the whole thing through about 6 times (about 10 hours to complete once if you don't rush).  

Depending on how you behave there's a series of different behaviour you get from the enemies and your own troops - the differences between the difficulty settings are just increasing enemy intelligence, and at the higher levels the buggers lure you into traps, hide in the shadows if they see / hear you coming etc.

I'm still not bored with it ...

Anyway, there's lots of games that are bodges, too short, lack vision etc.  The classics are the ones where each time you play something different happens, and you notice new things :-)
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: whabang on May 25, 2005, 11:15:41 PM
I just bought a GameCube! 8-)
Only cost me 495 SEK ($67). :-D
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: whabang on May 25, 2005, 11:17:57 PM
Quote
I'm not sure how the graphics chip differs from what nVidia has released on the PC.

IIRC, it's optimized for low-res rendering.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on May 26, 2005, 12:46:20 AM
Quote

Holley wrote:
Quote
Where's all this revolutionary AI we hear so much about?

This is where Halo 2 shines, my son and I have played the whole thing through about 6 times (about 10 hours to complete once if you don't rush).  

Depending on how you behave there's a series of different behaviour you get from the enemies and your own troops - the differences between the difficulty settings are just increasing enemy intelligence, and at the higher levels the buggers lure you into traps, hide in the shadows if they see / hear you coming etc.

I'm still not bored with it ...

Anyway, there's lots of games that are bodges, too short, lack vision etc.  The classics are the ones where each time you play something different happens, and you notice new things :-)


Resident Evil 4 has some neat AI on the GC.  Those buggers dodge out of your gun's line of sight.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: stefcep on May 26, 2005, 01:41:05 AM
I firmly believe the most popular console is the one that gets pirated the most or how easy it is to do this. It happened with the Amiga and later the PC, later the PSone and Xbox and Ps2. Console games are overpriced ( some say they are overpriced because of piracy, and others will say pircay exists because they are overpriced) and so people will always want to mod the machines to play "back ups".  The easier it is to do this the more popular the system.
I think if games were more affordable it would not be worth your while to use pirated software.  Look at DVD's:  In Australia DVD's were worth about $50 a few years ago, but sales were low and there was alot of pirated stuff out there.  But now the average is about $20 and pirates sell theirs for $10-$15 its not worth buying the pirated ones.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: whabang on May 26, 2005, 09:45:20 AM
So you are saying that Nintendo will come out of this as a winner? :-D
IIRC, nobody has managed to break the GC's encryption yet, and there are no widely availible burners for the Panasonic Q-discs either.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Linchpin on May 26, 2005, 10:05:39 AM
Quote
IIRC, nobody has managed to break the GC's encryption yet


You sure on that?
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: strobe on May 26, 2005, 12:37:12 PM
Quote

whabang wrote:
IIRC, nobody has managed to break the GC's encryption yet...


Not true. Heck, I saw a video of somebody playing a burned disk on a Game Cube only weeks after it was released.

As for the relationship between piracy and prices, the relationship is likely overblown. Pirates pirate and non-pirates don't. I doubt lower prices would get them to stop, and the historically high prices reflect what paying customers are willing to dole out.

Speaking for myself, the primary reason I modded my PS2 was the inability to play non-US games on it, like the Winning Eleven football series. When they localize it for Europe or elsewhere, it sucks. The PAL versions are slow and the US versions are neutered.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: on May 26, 2005, 12:45:09 PM
Quote

whabang wrote:
I just bought a GameCube! 8-)
Only cost me 495 SEK ($67). :-D


Super Mario Kart Double Dash is THE finest racing game you will EVER play, especially two or more players.  Trust me.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: stefcep on May 26, 2005, 01:20:04 PM
GC a winner?  not sure, is it easier to pirate its software relative to xBox and PS2?  If yes I think you will find alot of consoles will be sold but not as much software.  I think the relationship between piracy and popularity is alot stronger than you think.  I know 14-16 year old PSone owners wih 300-400 games.  You think they paid $50-$70 Aus each game?  Where did they get between $15000 and $28000 from?  Hate to admit this, but in the Amigas halcyon days the easy availabilty of pirate games floppies was THE reason most of my friends and everyone else at User clubs chose Amiga. We learnt later just what a good machine it was for serious stuff...
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Einstein on May 26, 2005, 04:47:21 PM
Quote

stefcep wrote:

Console games are overpriced ( some say they are overpriced because of piracy, and others will say pircay exists because they are overpriced) and so people will always want to mod the machines to play "back ups".


Yes, Im sure no Company better then Nintendo could make us believing that, I mean, All the horrible PIRACY concerning all its system (!!!!!)  :-D
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Speelgoedmannetje on June 02, 2005, 01:51:37 PM
Quote

mdma wrote:
Quote

whabang wrote:
I just bought a GameCube! 8-)
Only cost me 495 SEK ($67). :-D


Super Mario Kart Double Dash is THE finest racing game you will EVER play, especially two or more players.  Trust me.
Monkey Ball is a classic, too  8-)
(especially the sub-game monkey target)
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: dentaku on September 09, 2005, 02:04:13 AM
Who buys a game console? Parents because they have too much money for their kids that cry out too loud. And soon they will learn that their expensive game machine and all the expensive games won't run on other machines. And when they buy one of the new coming up systems they buy new games and don't play the old ones because they look so lame compared to the new games. So they end ub buying a new console every few years ... they must have a money milking cow.  :crazy:
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: kd7ota on September 09, 2005, 02:18:37 AM
Nice.

I might as well put in my input since many already have.  :-)

I am a big X-Box fan, so definately gonna pick myself a 360 when it comes out.  I can't understand why there are many haters against the console. If you hate it, then hate it!  :-D

I personally found backwards compatible ridiculous since now the chips they make now are way more complex then it was back in the NES days.  If you really want to play the older systems, then find one and buy the games that go with them.  Too much time is wasted in backwards compatible.  Can you people afford a simple $50 console by the time the new systems come out and everything else drops in price?  :-D

But seriously though. No objections to what I post. Nothing is going to change my mind, just putting in my two cents.  Everyone has their right to their own opinions.

Until then, rock on Xbox. The power of X.  :-)
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Vincent on September 09, 2005, 04:55:01 PM
Quote

whabang wrote way back on 25/5/05:
I just bought a GameCube! 8-)
Only cost me 495 SEK ($67). :-D

So have I :-D

Just got back from the shop with it.  Only £39.99 too!

Got Resident Evil 0, 1 and 2 aswell for about £10 each.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on September 09, 2005, 05:22:49 PM
RE4 was phenominal!

The ps2 version is only going to run in 320x400 I think.  So they make up for it by adding more uniforms and weapons and expanded the Ada Wong missions...big deal.

I can't wait to see a comparison review as each game was optimized for it's system but the PS2 version benefits from coming out later with a bit more mostly useless content.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Linchpin on September 09, 2005, 07:13:06 PM
MK Double Dash is awesome... me and my mate spend hours on it :)
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Magic-Merl on September 09, 2005, 07:21:49 PM
The Xbox looks outdated but I think it's the one I would go for.  Having seen what the PS2 does in comparison to Xbox1.  But I think PS3 will have a run for it's money this time around with Microsofts financial clout.

Although I have never owned a Nintendo,  I have to say it looks the coolest by far....
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Edpon on October 17, 2005, 05:55:53 AM
Oh boy, here we go. . .

PS3 -
Yes it's backwards compatible, the single best reason alone to get a new system, in my eyes. Yes it's very powerful, and they'll have loads of RPG's, the second best reason to own a new system.

X-Box 360 -
It might be Microsloth, but, their system will do well simply because of all the modding communities out there. I have my current system modded and use it more like a computer for my living room, as well as an emulator for all the games I have. Competition is good for the community, and only Microsoft can really go head-to-head with Sony.

Nintendo Revolution -
More like Nintendo Mod-o-lution. Yes we all know Nintendo is legendary for it's Mario, Zelda and Metroid, but they are still basically a KIDS system. Their idea of being backwards compatible with all it's software ever made, is simply a way of cashing in on their old titles, and to put a stop to the illegal ROMS swapping going on with websites; which is ok, but is not really revolutionary. I will give them credit on their controller though, pretty interesting, we'll see how it goes.

Ok, now the real question -
Which will Ed be buying? The answer -
ALL of them. Why? 3 reasons.
1 - Because I'm a true gamer, and true gamers have the widest variety of games to keep themselves happy.
2 - Because My son wants one of the above mentioned.
3 - Because I like variety, I'll have access to all of the systems "exclusives" and get to experience it for myself.

Ed
 :-D  :-o  :-D
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 17, 2005, 12:37:01 PM
Well, since Microsoft is bringing XBOX Live to the PC, I still don't see a reason to get a Sony or Microsoft 'console'.

As far as exclusives go...what few games are worth a $400 console?  The Final Fantasy series no longer seems to be a Sony exclusive.  GTA3 - never exclusive.  Just a few Sony titles really and Gods of War is the only memorable one.  Maybe Metal Gear Solid series from Konami.  In the future...and present actually, you see alot of concurrent releases of PS2 and PC even if they won't release an XBOX version.

Same can be said of XBOX except worse, the PC versions of the FPS games are just better.  None of the RPGs on the XBOX have lived up to expectations.  All it has is more power than the other consoles to throw at a car simulators like Forza....and games like that are still better on the PC.

I already have a 3200 AMD with 1GB of 400MHz DDR RAM and a 250GB HD with a RADEON 8500 w/128MB AGP card.

I'll get a Revolution for the real exclusive games and spend less money and have a new and unique way to play new games that won't be possible on the other consoles...and when the next Grand Theft Auto (or whatever is hot) game comes out, I can always get the superior PC version.

...besides, consoles don't have World Of Warcraft...

it's funny, I was poking around my PC this weekend and found that I still had Unreal Gold installed...so I played it.  Haven't done so in over 3 years.  Wow.  On this newer more powerful PC that what I had 3-4 years ago (900MHz AMD) the textures just blow you away at 1280x1024 with a ridiculouly high framerate and 32bit color.  That's the other PC 'side-effect'.  You upgrade your PC, you've upgraded your games at the same time.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: harima_kun on October 17, 2005, 01:03:42 PM
I am not a fan of ms i actually just use macs for all my work but i do like the xbox and the ps 2 and the gc, i will buy the xbox 360 because even though it is made my ms there are some very good games coming out for it, as for the ps 3 well i will just have to wait for that to come out too and buy it, in the end it is the games which make the system worthwhile buying and if people would actually take the time to play on an xbox console they will realise that is damn fun and the games are in fact bloody marvellous!! so i think the time for bickering over which system is better is foolish, i mean come on that is for the 12 year old kids who cannot afford all systems, most the people here are old enough to own each of the systems and should enjoy that fact :D
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Psy on October 17, 2005, 04:42:12 PM
Quote

stefcep wrote:
Console games are overpriced ( some say they are overpriced because of piracy, and others will say pircay exists because they are overpriced) and so people will always want to mod the machines to play "back ups".  The easier it is to do this the more popular the system.


You have to take into account the systems are sold at a loss and Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft makes up for this by taxing games for their systems.  This tax not only pays for selling the hardware at a loss but advertising their hardware.

Next like the movie industry the thinking is bigger is better thus larger devlopment costs leading to more loss when a game doesn't do well in the market.  On a sidenote this also means there is a risk of of devlopment costs spiraling out of control causing another crash in the video game industry.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 17, 2005, 05:10:08 PM
Quote

Psy wrote:
Quote

stefcep wrote:
Console games are overpriced ( some say they are overpriced because of piracy, and others will say pircay exists because they are overpriced) and so people will always want to mod the machines to play "back ups".  The easier it is to do this the more popular the system.


You have to take into account the systems are sold at a loss and Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft makes up for this by taxing games for their systems.  This tax not only pays for selling the hardware at a loss but advertising their hardware.

Next like the movie industry the thinking is bigger is better thus larger devlopment costs leading to more loss when a game doesn't do well in the market.  On a sidenote this also means there is a risk of of devlopment costs spiraling out of control causing another crash in the video game industry.


That was true except for the Gamecube.  It was always a profitable machine as will Revolution be.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: adolescent on October 17, 2005, 06:27:21 PM
Quote

lou_dias wrote:

That was true except for the Gamecube.  It was always a profitable machine as will Revolution be.


Not true.  Due to poor sales, production cost went up early on in the GCNs lifecycle.  Couple that with price cuts to stay competitive and it's been losing Nintendo a ton of money.   At ~$150 they were breaking even, at $100 they are losing money.  Now at $100 with a pack-in and (new release) first party title they are losing even more.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: SamuraiCrow on October 17, 2005, 08:47:05 PM
@thread

It's pricing games like this that make me wonder why Sony didn't make their hard drive and Linux expanders more capable earlier on so they could compete with Windows and knock the legs out from under Microsoft.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Daedalus on October 17, 2005, 10:37:42 PM
Quote

Edpon wrote:
PS3 -
Yes it's backwards compatible, the single best reason alone to get a new system, in my eyes. Yes it's very powerful, and they'll have loads of RPG's, the second best reason to own a new system.


I don't go for the backwards compatibility thing. I've no problem running my N64 whenever I want a game of Perfect Dark or Conker's Bad Fur Day. RPGs o nthe PS2 never really appealed to me

Quote

Nintendo Revolution -
Their idea of being backwards compatible with all it's software ever made, is simply a way of cashing in on their old titles, and to put a stop to the illegal ROMS swapping going on with websites;

Oh? Is that all that different from the reasons other manufacturers (such as Sony) are doing it? You're being a bit hypocritical there, check what you said back up the top there about the PS3 backwards compatibility, then make up your mind.

Quote

1 - Because I'm a true gamer, and true gamers have the widest variety of games to keep themselves happy.


Hmmm... We can all call ourselves true gamers. I'd like to think I'm a true gamer, but I'd go for quality over quantity. Volume of games doesn't matter to me, but if there are 5 good games on a console, that's good enough for me. The Gamecube was in there right away, Zelda, F-Zero, Mario Kart, Pikmin, Metroid Prime for starters (and all Nintendo games too...), and the PS2 just about made it in my opinion with GT3&4, Forza, Final Fantasy, but once you've played a lesser-known game on the PS2, you've played them all in that genre. The X-Box wasn't even a consideration. Played Halo for a while, nothing too special, and went back to my PC for that type of game... Also, playing DVDs is no biggie. I've a DVD player here that has an output far superior to anything you can get out of any DVD-playing console. I liked Nintendo's attitude. The Gamecube is a games machine, nothing more, nothing less, and so it really excelled at that. Picture, sound, games and controllers all surpass the PS2 IMO.

I'll be buying the next Nintendo as soon as they release some of their signature titles for it. Hell, I'll even be buying the new Zelda game when it's released in February over here for the Gamecube. I'll borrow a PS3 and play it for a while, but I'd imagine that'd be the end of it. Xbox 360? Hmmm... If Rare release a couple of gems for it I might consider it, but apart from that I wouldn't even bother looking.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 17, 2005, 10:39:11 PM
Quote

adolescent wrote:
Quote

lou_dias wrote:

That was true except for the Gamecube.  It was always a profitable machine as will Revolution be.


Not true.  Due to poor sales, production cost went up early on in the GCNs lifecycle.  Couple that with price cuts to stay competitive and it's been losing Nintendo a ton of money.   At ~$150 they were breaking even, at $100 they are losing money.  Now at $100 with a pack-in and (new release) first party title they are losing even more.


You have no idea what you are talking about.
Once they removed the DV out (after already removing Serial Port 1) the console was right around the $100 mark.  And that was 2 years ago.  It's a well known fact that the GC has been profitable for Nintendo.  Otherwise why would they blame lower profits directly on lower Gamecube CONSOLE sales?

Oh and the key word there is PROFITS.

http://cube.ign.com/articles/656/656903p1.html
http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=5653
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: adolescent on October 17, 2005, 11:49:51 PM
Quote

lou_dias wrote:

You have no idea what you are talking about.
Once they removed the DV out (after already removing Serial Port 1) the console was right around the $100 mark.  And that was 2 years ago.  It's a well known fact that the GC has been profitable for Nintendo.  Otherwise why would they blame lower profits directly on lower Gamecube CONSOLE sales?

Oh and the key word there is PROFITS.

http://cube.ign.com/articles/656/656903p1.html
http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=5653


Please provide links to these "well known facts".  The links you posted in no way show the Gamecube is profitable at any price point.  

Quote
Nintendo has cut its first-half operating profit forecast by one third due primarily to slow sales of GameCube hardware and software in North America.


They don't blame the latest on just console sales, but hardware and software combined.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: koaftder on October 18, 2005, 01:20:25 AM
Quote
Please provide links to these "well known facts". The links you posted in no way show the Gamecube is profitable at any price point.


Whats the point? At least half of what this guy says is blatently wrong anyway.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Edpon on October 18, 2005, 02:17:40 AM
Quote

Daedalus wrote:
Quote

Edpon wrote:
PS3 -
Yes it's backwards compatible, the single best reason alone to get a new system, in my eyes. Yes it's very powerful, and they'll have loads of RPG's, the second best reason to own a new system.


I don't go for the backwards compatibility thing. I've no problem running my N64 whenever I want a game of Perfect Dark or Conker's Bad Fur Day. RPGs o nthe PS2 never really appealed to me

Quote

Nintendo Revolution -
Their idea of being backwards compatible with all it's software ever made, is simply a way of cashing in on their old titles, and to put a stop to the illegal ROMS swapping going on with websites;

Oh? Is that all that different from the reasons other manufacturers (such as Sony) are doing it? You're being a bit hypocritical there, check what you said back up the top there about the PS3 backwards compatibility, then make up your mind.

 No, the difference here is Nintendo is not really giving you a way to be backwards compatible with what you currently own. They want you to re-pay for your existing software to run on their new machine, which will most likely be stored on a flash device of some sort.

Quote

1 - Because I'm a true gamer, and true gamers have the widest variety of games to keep themselves happy.


Hmmm... We can all call ourselves true gamers. I'd like to think I'm a true gamer, but I'd go for quality over quantity. Volume of games doesn't matter to me, but if there are 5 good games on a console, that's good enough for me. The Gamecube was in there right away, Zelda, F-Zero, Mario Kart, Pikmin, Metroid Prime for starters (and all Nintendo games too...), and the PS2 just about made it in my opinion with GT3&4, Forza, Final Fantasy, but once you've played a lesser-known game on the PS2, you've played them all in that genre. The X-Box wasn't even a consideration. Played Halo for a while, nothing too special, and went back to my PC for that type of game... Also, playing DVDs is no biggie. I've a DVD player here that has an output far superior to anything you can get out of any DVD-playing console. I liked Nintendo's attitude. The Gamecube is a games machine, nothing more, nothing less, and so it really excelled at that. Picture, sound, games and controllers all surpass the PS2 IMO.

I'll be buying the next Nintendo as soon as they release some of their signature titles for it. Hell, I'll even be buying the new Zelda game when it's released in February over here for the Gamecube. I'll borrow a PS3 and play it for a while, but I'd imagine that'd be the end of it. Xbox 360? Hmmm... If Rare release a couple of gems for it I might consider it, but apart from that I wouldn't even bother looking.


The main reason I say I'm a TRUE gamer, is not because of all the games I have. It's mainly because of all the games, systems, and types of games I have.  A true gamer, likes all games, all systems and plays them with showing any special interest towards a particular system, like you are doing, and very obviously too. It's clear you took offense to me doing a little picking on Nintendo, so clearly your a Nintendo fanboy. I on the other hand, like all systems and types of games; but prefer RPG's and the PS and X-Box. Nintendo is fine too, but they disappoint me because they're too kiddy like. Just my opinion though.

Ed
 :-D  :-o  :lol:  :-D
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 18, 2005, 04:40:41 AM
Quote

koaftder wrote:
Quote
Please provide links to these "well known facts". The links you posted in no way show the Gamecube is profitable at any price point.


Whats the point? At least half of what this guy says is blatently wrong anyway.


2 arses.

I'll have you know I co-admin a not so popular DS gaming site and have access to newswires that general shmoes like you 2 don't.  Most of what you see on websites actually comes from only a few major newswires.  GamesPress being one of them.

I've been keeping up with the gaming industry on a daily basis since December in an attempt to draw hits to my website.  I did post some links about the DS here back in December.  But stopped 'advertising' right after that.

So it's been my job through about April or May when the lack of users no longer justified the effort.  However, I still keep up with everything - DAILY - as a personal hobby of mine.

Any monkey knows that the GC has always been sold for profit.  Even the slimline PS2 is profitable at $150US.  It's only MS that made a rookie mistake and didn't own their own designs in order to find low cost manufacturers.  A problem they fixed with the 360.

Instead why don't one of you 2 ass-clowns quote me some websites where it says Nintendo takes a loss on every GC sold.  I'll see you in Timbuck 2 when you find one.

Oh and here's an article, just like the one from this quarter, once again stating that Nintendo PROFITS were hurt by poor Gamecube HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE sales from March of 2003.  http://www.gamesindustry.biz/news.php?aid=1689

These quarterly earnings company statement are a matter of public record and break down where a company's profits and losses come from.  They are available on Nintendo's corporate (vs. consumer) website.  It is what investors look at to determine whether or not to invest in a company.  Now you are going to tell me they could be lying to their shareholders and potential investors...and when MS posts a 171 million dollar loss in a quarter in the gaming sector due to losses it takes selling XBOX's that they could be lying too, right?

Ignorance is bliss.  As is trolldum.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Daedalus on October 18, 2005, 08:59:36 AM
Quote

Edpon wrote:
The main reason I say I'm a TRUE gamer, is not because of all the games I have. It's mainly because of all the games, systems, and types of games I have.  A true gamer, likes all games, all systems and plays them with showing any special interest towards a particular system, like you are doing, and very obviously too. It's clear you took offense to me doing a little picking on Nintendo, so clearly your a Nintendo fanboy. I on the other hand, like all systems and types of games; but prefer RPG's and the PS and X-Box. Nintendo is fine too, but they disappoint me because they're too kiddy like. Just my opinion though.



No, I didn't take offence, and will try them all (like I said I did) but with being so disappointed with the current XBox and PS2 that I would have to be seriously persuaded to go out and buy updated versions of either. Maybe I am a little biased towards Nintendo, but the current generation of consoles I went into with a very open mind (I am still using Amigas after all!). I was just generally disappointed when I got a PS2 with most of the games, and horrified that they kept the PS1 controller design. At the time my N64 saw just as much use as my PS2. Then the GC and XBox came out. Bought the GC, tried out the XBox, gave the XBox back and never once felt like I'd like to play anything on it again.

I'll give you the kiddy thing, but I don't let that bother me, especially when you can get a lot of the "standard" titles on all the main machines. I think kiddy image games like the Zelda and Mario series can hold just as much grown-up attention provided they're well-written games, and they are.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 18, 2005, 03:25:10 PM
Oh and Nintendo learns it's lessons well:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12324

free access to online play for the DS and Revolution.  Have fun paying for XBOX Live.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: adolescent on October 18, 2005, 05:38:27 PM
@lou_dias

Typical.  Instead of providing any real facts or evidence to support your claim, you resort to name calling.

But, here you go anyway...  welcome to Timbuktu.

http://www.gaming-age.com/news/2002/1/30-127

Quote
The unit cost of producing and distributing the GameCube has actually become higher than its retail price, since launch.

Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 18, 2005, 06:55:47 PM
Troll, your article is from January of 2002.  It states that it was profitable then wasn't then would be again and since then Nintendo has removed the DV out connector and the Serial Port 1 and redesigned the board and are on Rev C now.  Look in there quartely earnings reports for the past 3 years...not to mention the production outsourcing...

I have a Rev A GC with both serial ports and the DV out connector for which I bought the component adapter cables and play most of my games in progressive scan mode on my 50" DLP HDTV.

For Rev B. they removed Serial Port 1 as they planned no products for it's use, it was probably for debug output anyway.

My modded 'Cube purchased in August of THIS year is the Rev C. board and doesn't have the DV-out circuitry or connector and the same goes for Serial Port 1.  Serial Port 2 is still there for the Broadband or Modem adaper.  As is the HIGH SPEED parrallel port for the GBA player.

Sony has done similar cost-cutting measures with the PS2 over the years.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: koaftder on October 18, 2005, 08:40:44 PM
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
Troll, your article is from January of 2002 and since then Nintendo has removed the DV out connector and the Serial Port 1 and redesigned the board and are on Rev C now.  Look in there quartely earnings reports for the past 3 years.

I have a Rev A GC with Both serial ports and the DV out connector for which I bought the component adapter capbles and play most of my games in progressive scan mode on my 50" DLP HDTV.

My modded 'Cube purchase in August of THIS year is the Rev C. board and doesn't have the DV-out circuitry or connector and the same goes for Serial Port 1.  Serial Port 2 is still there for the Broadband or Modem adaper.  As is the HIGH SPEED parrallel port for the GBA player.

Sony has done similar cost-cutting measures with the PS2 over the years.


Actually i did a google search and came up with several pages from 2003 and 2004 indicating that Nintendo may have taken a small loss on the console. Again, speculation, because the only people who really know would be the execs at Nintendo.

I wont bother posting links because i know your gonna call me a troll, or maybe even something more creative, like "Ass Clown", or "Gay" . lol

Who knows, maybe you really do know the answer definitively. Maybe you flew to japan dressed up like mario and socially engineered your way into Nintendo HQ and checked the books yourself.

Anyway, have fun reading your elite nintendo news from your special "News Wire".
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: adolescent on October 18, 2005, 08:43:41 PM
@lou

Provide proof then.  You haven't shown a piece of evidence to support your claims.  (Your word alone is definately not credible.)

Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: adolescent on October 18, 2005, 08:53:13 PM
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
Oh and Nintendo learns it's lessons well:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12324

free access to online play for the DS and Revolution.  Have fun paying for XBOX Live.


This is great news for DS owners (and McDonalds fans I guess) left out in the cold by Nintendo's decision to use a proprietary wireless protocol.  It's good that Nintendo is begining to open their eyes to the possibilities of online play.  

As for Xbox live, it's quite a different atmosphere.  There are thousands of players online at a time, playing the hundreds of online games available, from all areas of the world.  Only time will tell if the DS wireless will take off like that.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 18, 2005, 09:32:57 PM
Quote

adolescent wrote:
@lou

Provide proof then.  You haven't shown a piece of evidence to support your claims.  (Your word alone is definately not credible.)


why don't you read their quarterly earnings report or annual ones?
http://www.nintendo.com/corp/annual_report.jsp

what do you want me to do hand you it?
do you want me to take pics of both of my gamecubes to show you the missing connections?

What makes your word the Holy Grail?
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 18, 2005, 09:35:47 PM
Quote

adolescent wrote:
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
Oh and Nintendo learns it's lessons well:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12324

free access to online play for the DS and Revolution.  Have fun paying for XBOX Live.


This is great news for DS owners (and McDonalds fans I guess) left out in the cold by Nintendo's decision to use a proprietary wireless protocol.  It's good that Nintendo is begining to open their eyes to the possibilities of online play.  

As for Xbox live, it's quite a different atmosphere.  There are thousands of players online at a time, playing the hundreds of online games available, from all areas of the world.  Only time will tell if the DS wireless will take off like that.


Only the 'LAN' play is proprietary and it's been cracked already anyway.  As far as Wi-Fi internet connectivity goes, that's standard but nothing was written to take advantage of it yet.

Also, it's neat what they are doing with multi-player matches and friend lists.   To add someone to your "buddy" list, you have to get there MAC-like address and go to Nintendo's site, log in and add them to your list...  Or you can choose to play random people of the same skill level determined by your performance in the offline game and multi-player matches.

Also...
As Nintendo has stated, 1st party Nintendo Revolution games will not pay any fees to play online as well...  Also, DS owners can connect to Revolution systems as a gateway as well.  So it seems they are 100% behind this...

...now if only they'd confirm HD video support, that would be everything... see I don't think they are perfect...
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: adolescent on October 18, 2005, 10:16:43 PM
Quote

lou_dias wrote:

why don't you read their quarterly earnings report or annual ones?
http://www.nintendo.com/corp/annual_report.jsp

what do you want me to do hand you it?


Yes please.  Nowhere in the Nintendo financial reports do they declare a profit on the Gamecube hardware.  Quote some of those super secret www.dsbuzz.com sources.

Quote
What makes your word the Holy Grail?


My word is backed up supporting information, not blind fanboy speculation.  
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 18, 2005, 11:15:47 PM
From Nintendo's latest quarterly report page 1:
Quote
During the three months ended June 30, 2005, two key Nintendo DS titles in the electronic entertainment products division,
"Nintendogs" and "Noh o Kitaeru Otona no DS Training (DS Training for Adults: Work Your Brain)", were launched in Japan and
gained wide popularity. Both provide a new game play experience unlike any previous or existing video game. Nintendo DS hardware
sales in Japan were driven by these strong titles and by reaching broader demographics including new comers such as women and
seniors. As for overseas markets, Game Boy Advance SP hardware continued to sell steadily and the software title "Pokémon Emerald",
which is a new version of "Pokémon Ruby/Sapphire", was launched in the United States. Combined sales of "Pokémon Emerald" in
Japan and the United States exceeded 1.2 million units during the current first quarter alone.
As for console-type game products, unit sales of both hardware and software declined compared to last year's first quarter.
As a result, net sales decreased by 11.4 billion yen compared to last year's first quarter, to 70.6 billion yen.
Operating income was 3.7 billion yen due to factors such as a higher mix of the less profitable hardware sales, driven by the launch of
Nintendo DS at the end of last calendar year, and an increase in research and development costs in comparison with last year's first
quarter.


Now here they are claiming there PROFITS (not losses) are down because console sales are down and the release of 'less profitable' hardware - the Nintendo DS.   Less profitable means it still makes a profit as does their other harware sales.

DO
YOU
UNDERSTAND?

But I'm sure you're so-called 'reputable information' is better than Nintendo's own quarterly report.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 19, 2005, 01:42:13 AM
5 things that will blow your mind.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1118338-1,00.html
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: adolescent on October 19, 2005, 02:30:32 AM
@lou

I stand by my previous statement.  Nowhere in the text quoted does it say the Gamecube hardware makes a profit (which is your contention).  You're reading something into the sentance that isn't there.

Another quote from a Nintendo news site.  (2005 so you don't whine about it being old)

http://nintendoinsider.com/site/EEEZuAypVuTuOJPzyb.php

Quote
The system was still making Nintendo money at $150, and it wasn’t until its $99 price tag that it was estimated Nintendo was losing money – but only in the single digits.


Yes, the $99 drop was when the cost reductions were done and the shift to China a few years ago.  So, once again I stand by my statement.  (and there's plenty more REAL quotes that back it up...)
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Dr_Righteous on October 19, 2005, 02:37:50 AM
Um... But what new games are out for my Genesis?
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: adolescent on October 19, 2005, 03:18:15 AM
Quote

Dr_Righteous wrote:
Um... But what new games are out for my Genesis?


Unfortunately, none.  But, that doesn't make the old games any less fun.  I recently dusted of my JVC X'Eye for a Sonic fix.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Waccoon on October 19, 2005, 10:19:15 AM
Quote
Now here they are claiming there PROFITS (not losses) are down because console sales are down and the release of 'less profitable' hardware - the Nintendo DS. Less profitable means it still makes a profit as does their other harware sales.

DO
YOU
UNDERSTAND?

I understand that people buy games WITH the console, so if console sales go down, so do the sale of games, which is where they make their money.  People don't make a habit of buying a game machine, then waiting a few months to get some games.

The excerpt you reprinted talks about profits from sales, which includes all associated royalties.  Nowhere does it say that the hardware is profitable.

Quote
But I'm sure you're so-called 'reputable information' is better than Nintendo's own quarterly report.

I read that quarterly report.  It shows sales numbers, but not a breakdown of profits.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 19, 2005, 12:14:59 PM
In Oct of 2003 is when the price got lowered to $99
http://in.tech.yahoo.com/030924/137/28002.html

In late 2003/early 2004, they got rid of the progressive scan component and the gc went to profitability again from losing about $7-$8 for a couple of months.

So you are all ass-clowns as the GC has been profitable for 95+% of it's existence.  And that's the real point - isn't it?

As Revolution will be...

And if you really do the numbers...the GC was (as you claim) losing money for the better part of that fiscal year yet Nintendo doubled it's profits.  Coincidentally, when the GC went down to $99, it enjoyed a healthy and sustained sales boost.

Funny thing, prepubescent, is that the article you posted contradicts many of the claims about Nintendo hurting that you made in my 'potential PPC Amiga real cheap' thread which further iconifies your status as the Troll-king.

You claim I am reading between the lines!
You just posted an article telling you the GC was profitable even at $150 and would only be in single digit losses @ $99...
...that in of itself means you don't know what you are talkng about as you claimed it was always sold at a loss - it was your statement that started this not mine...allow me to quote you here:
Quote

Not true. Due to poor sales, production cost went up early on in the GCNs lifecycle. Couple that with price cuts to stay competitive and it's been losing Nintendo a ton of money. At ~$150 they were breaking even, at $100 they are losing money. Now at $100 with a pack-in and (new release) first party title they are losing even more.


...then Ninendo puts out the Rev C board with no Progressive Scan circuitry or connector in order to make it profitable again about 2 months after the price drop to $99...and I am reading between the lines and you are a bunch of know-it-alls.

I.A.C.'s - idiot ass clowns

who double as trolls...
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: koaftder on October 19, 2005, 03:32:07 PM
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
In Oct of 2003 is when the price got lowered to $99
http://in.tech.yahoo.com/030924/137/28002.html

In late 2003/early 2004, they got rid of the progressive scan component and the gc went to profitability again from losing about $7-$8 for a couple of months.

So you are all ass-clowns as the GC has been profitable for 95+% of it's existence.  And that's the real point - isn't it?

As Revolution will be...

And if you really do the numbers...the GC was (as you claim) losing money for the better part of that fiscal year yet Nintendo doubled it's profits.  Coincidentally, when the GC went down to $99, it enjoyed a healthy and sustained sales boost.

Funny thing, prepubescent, is that the article you posted contradicts many of the claims about Nintendo hurting that you made in my 'potential PPC Amiga real cheap' thread which further iconifies your status as the Troll-king.

You claim I am reading between the lines!
You just posted an article telling you the GC was profitable even at $150 and would only be in single digit losses @ $99...
...that in of itself means you don't know what you are talkng about as you claimed it was always sold at a loss - it was your statement that started this not mine...allow me to quote you here:
Quote

Not true. Due to poor sales, production cost went up early on in the GCNs lifecycle. Couple that with price cuts to stay competitive and it's been losing Nintendo a ton of money. At ~$150 they were breaking even, at $100 they are losing money. Now at $100 with a pack-in and (new release) first party title they are losing even more.


...then Ninendo puts out the Rev C board with no Progressive Scan circuitry or connector in order to make it profitable again about 2 months after the price drop to $99...and I am reading between the lines and you are a bunch of know-it-alls.

I.A.C.'s - idiot ass clowns

who double as trolls...


Just immagine if you put all this energy into an AROS bounty, we would have a reliable installer and a firefox port... Geez
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: adolescent on October 19, 2005, 04:02:48 PM
@lou

Funny, you don't seem to read so well (or DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND).  My quote clearly said that the cube broke even at $150, and lost money at $99.  Just like the article(s) I quoted/linked.  

Of course, it's easier for you to just call names than have a civilised discussion so we'll leave it at that and not troll this thread up any more than you already have.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 19, 2005, 05:21:58 PM
the article you posted contradicts your own statement.

if @ $99 the GC losses were temporarily in single digits ($1-$9) then it was also profitable at $150.  Can you not do math?  Don't back peddle.

Face the facts: the Gamecube hardware has been profitable for Nintendo.  Rev B. removed serial port 1 and around that time is when they dropped to $150.  Rev C. also removed the progressive scan capability and that was done shortly after the $99 price drop.

Going by Japan's latest open pricing policy, one can deduct that the GC cost about $75-$85 to produce.  Throw in a game that cost <$10 to produce as a bundle and even if profits are only $5 per bundle, it moves inventory and spurs sales of future/concurrent additional software sales...which we all agree is where the meat of the profits comes from.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 19, 2005, 05:29:58 PM
@koaftder

If I was a low-level file system/ operation system coder, I would have.

I'm just a Windows .NET coder.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Waccoon on October 20, 2005, 09:47:08 AM
Quote
In late 2003/early 2004, they got rid of the progressive scan component and the gc went to profitability again from losing about $7-$8 for a couple of months.

Source?

Quote
So you are all ass-clowns as the GC has been profitable for 95+% of it's existence. And that's the real point - isn't it?

The point is you still haven't provided a source, and probably never will when you can just call everyone ass-clowns, instead.

Quote
And if you really do the numbers...

Based on what?

Quote

I.A.C.'s - idiot ass clowns

who double as trolls...

Enough with the name calling.  If you're so damn smart, tell me how much money Nintendo spends manufacturing each Gamecube.

When you tell me your manufacturing quote, don't forget to include packaging and shipping costs.  Obviously, Gamecubes don't jump into pretty boxes or swim across the ocean from China all by themselves.

Also, note that Nintendo doesn't sell Gamecubes for $100.  The stores do.  Tell me how much money the stores pay, and use that value to determine Nintendo's profit per hardware unit.

You, ah, DO have that information, don't you?
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 20, 2005, 11:48:40 AM
Quote

Waccoon wrote:
Quote
In late 2003/early 2004, they got rid of the progressive scan component and the gc went to profitability again from losing about $7-$8 for a couple of months.

Source?

Quote
So you are all ass-clowns as the GC has been profitable for 95+% of it's existence. And that's the real point - isn't it?

The point is you still haven't provided a source, and probably never will when you can just call everyone ass-clowns, instead.


Are you ignorant?  I have 2 gamecubes, a Rev A and a Rev C.  I can email you pictures of the both, one with the ports and one without.  You can jump into any GC forum or faq page and get this information.  Even the hardware faq at www.gamefaqs.com will tell you about the differnt Gamecubes.  Look at www.qoobchip.com click the 'manuals' link and you will see pics of the Rev A/B board and the Rev C. board.

Quote
Quote
And if you really do the numbers...

Based on what?

based on the new pricing policy about to go in effect in Japan where the GC is sold at cost, with no MSRP.

Quote
Quote

I.A.C.'s - idiot ass clowns

who double as trolls...

Enough with the name calling.  If you're so damn smart, tell me how much money Nintendo spends manufacturing each Gamecube.


When you tell me your manufacturing quote, don't forget to include packaging and shipping costs.  Obviously, Gamecubes don't jump into pretty boxes or swim across the ocean from China all by themselves.

Also, note that Nintendo doesn't sell Gamecubes for $100.  The stores do.  Tell me how much money the stores pay, and use that value to determine Nintendo's profit per hardware unit.

You, ah, DO have that information, don't you?


funny how I'm the only one that has to provide sources.  You try to find the information since you act like what you believe it the absolute truth.

I just told you there is going to be no MSRP in Japan so you may see the units sell ~$80 to spur sales.  Why would a store sell it for less than they paid for it?  Stop being so trollish.  I will provide a link to the 'no MSRP' policy later when I get home from work as I'm behind a firewall right now.

And in the end, here's the whole point:

What is so hard to understand about economics?
Over time, espcecially after MILLIONS of units sold, things get ALOT cheaper.

It happens in Intel/AMD land, why not IBM/Motorola land?  The PPC cpu's are not expensive just because Eyetech wants to rape you of your wallet.  Get your heads out of the Amiga waste bucket and smell the fresh air.  PPC cpu's have been in millions of Macs, Gamecubes and embedded devices.

You can look up on Gamespot.com or gamesindustry.biz on how MS is only losing $75 initially on the 360.  So by typical Amigan troll math, the custom developed brand spanking new 3.2GHz triple-core PPC cpu must cost $1500 and the rest of the system must cost -$1125.  Gee if they sold it without a cpu, MS could clear out the US national debt...

And there is no such thing as guarranteed sales.  There are, however, pricing policy adjustments AFTER x amount of units have shipped.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 20, 2005, 12:20:45 PM
http://www.gonein60fps.net/thescreenshot/2005_01_01_archive.shtml

So if they Cubes hit the selves after May 04 in the US.  When do you think they were produced?  And you know they were on the shelves in Japan well before that.

Now, if you bought a GC today and wanted Progressive scan output.  You have to contact Nintendo and ship them your GC and they'll send you a Rev B. for a $50 charge + shipping.  Coincidence?

http://www.qoobchip.com/images/diagrams/qoob_pro_gc_ab.jpg

see the connector at the top middle?  That's the DV out.  Notice serial port 1 board connection on the board in the upper left corner next to the analog A/V connector
In this version, there is also a transformer that you have to be careful with when removing the board.

http://www.qoobchip.com/images/diagrams/qoob_pro_gc_c.jpg

here is the Rev C.  NOTICE, no serial port 1 connector on the board, the transformer in now part of the board and the analog A/V connector was moved to where the DV connector was.

Anymore stupid questions?

expected losses on initial 360 and PS3: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/news.php?aid=9838
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: koaftder on October 21, 2005, 10:08:18 AM
Dang, another GC controller bit the dust. This time a pelican transparent controller with a red glowing outline. This is at least the 12th controller ive broken in a fit of rage. I usually get pissed off and wing the controller by the cord and sling it into the GC. The sheer ammount of plastic shards that hit me and my surroundings was most impressive this time. There were even plastic bits in my open beer.

Spiderman 2, effin game, I cant get past the first boss. I  have several games, i'm stuck in all of them. Levels that are just too f'n hard to beat. I suppose if i were a professional gamer it wouldnt be an issue.

on most PC games you have differing levels of hardness you can select. They should adopt this on console games. When i was 12 i didnt seem to mind banging my head into the wall trying to complete some frickin level. Now that i'm almost 30 i want to murder the developers who wrote the game.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Waccoon on October 21, 2005, 10:44:03 AM
Quote
Are you ignorant?

Will you show proof if I say yes?

Quote
I can email you pictures of the both, one with the ports and one without

Change the subject all you want, but you know very well I asked for actual costs, not changes that affect cost.

BTW, I own a Rev C. Gamecube, so I don't need photos.

Quote
funny how I'm the only one that has to provide sources.

Er, yes.  During any debate, people who make claims bear the burden of showing proof.  :-)

Quote
I just told you there is going to be no MSRP in Japan so you may see the units sell ~$80 to spur sales. Why would a store sell it for less than they paid for it?

So, this means US stores make a profit, right?

OK, so only answer what I actually asked:  what's the store profit?

Oh, and while you're at it, tell us the manufacturing cost.  You kinda forgot about that.  :-)

Quote
Stop being so trollish.

Stop calling us ass-clowns because we're asking questions you don't know how to answer.

Quote
What is so hard to understand about economics?

Your economics are based on information you are pulling out of your navel, such as the hardware profits extracted from Nintendo's quarterly report which doesn't actually show hardware profits.

Quote
PPC cpu's have been in millions of Macs, Gamecubes and embedded devices.PPC cpu's have been in millions of Macs, Gamecubes and embedded devices.

Correction for systems other than Mac:  PPC cores.

Oh yeah, and Macs won't be using PPC anymore.  Somehow, I suspect you'll insist that's a good thing.  :-)
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 21, 2005, 11:46:55 AM
I don't give a rat's ass that MACs won't be PPC anymore.
When a Mac doesn't get any cheaper when it goes Intel then maybe you'll finally realize what you are paying for.

You ask me to provide store profits.  You want them, you provide them.  Same goes for manufacturing costs.  You have given me nothing that provides me with proof that selling GC hardware makes Nintendo lose money.  Adolescent provided an article blantantly telling you the system was costing Nintendo $100-108 just before the move to $99 which was just before they lowered their manufacturing costs again by going to rev C.  I knew this already because I read that same article a couple of years ago on another site...but didn't have a link.  By the way - thanks, adolescent, for the link.

If you need more proof than that, start by proving you aren't an ignorant troll because all you are doing is choosing to ignore facts.

So let me figure out your Amigan troll math again.  You are saying by eliminating components from a manufacturing process, Nintendo actually increased their manufacturing costs?  That's as brilliant as Eyetech's fix of the bugs in the A1 where the workaround is for the consumer to spend more money on an extra PCI card(s) for a feature(s) that you've already paid for on the motherboard.

Infact if Eyetech removed those buggy components, they would charge you extra for not having them on the motherboard.  That's the sad logic of you and them.  That's why the Amiga will stay DEAD.

Now I've also stated that Sony is making a profit selling the slimline PS2.  Would you care for me to provide links?  Why it so hard to believe selling consoles can be profitable?  Want to know why Sega stopped selling consoles?  Because they sold the Dreamcast at a loss and everybody and their grandmother pirated games to they had no way to make any substantial profit.  That was Sega, that will never be Nintendo...or Sony...and now it won't be Microsoft either eventually.

Just because zealots here are willing to pay ~$900 for 6 year old technology...heck how much do people buy A1200's here?  It's worth about <$5 in real world value today.  Give me a break.

I've sold around 10 CD32 titles on EBAY over the last couple of months.  I've charged $5 shipping and started the bidding at $0.01...  One did sell at that price and it didn't bother me one bit.  I shipped it.  Those games are 12 years old and worthless to me.  Just as an A1200 is worthless to me.  Heck, when I dig out my CD32 that will go on Ebay as well with an opening bid of $0.01 with the appropriate shipping costs.  This community pays too much money for worthless junk.

Don't hate because other hardware manufacturers can sell a QUALITY product at an AFFORDABLE price.

In the end - what does anyone care what it costs to manufacture product X from company Y as long as they are happy paying pice Z?  Just because people are dumb enough to pay $50 or more for a 15 year old A1200 or whatever doesn't mean a Gamecube should cost hundreds of dollars.  I told you - get your head out of the Amiga waste bucket.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Turambar on October 21, 2005, 12:47:21 PM
Wtf does any of this have to do with the amiga market? The only one bringing amiga into this is you. You have been asked to provide evidence to back up your claims, nothing more. You seem to have an inability to do this and so have resorted to name calling in an attempt to mask your inadaquacies. If you cant provide evidence and continue the debate in a mature manner then i suggest you leave the thread alone before you are banned from the site for repeated breach of the terms and conditions.

Oh and just so you know im not an amiga troll, i've spent more money on gamecube hardware than on amiga hardware. Im just a gamer who has fond memories of old amiga games.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 21, 2005, 01:05:10 PM
As am I.  However the original claim was that all consoles lose money.  There has been no proof to that but proof to the contrary.

What does this have to do with the Amiga market?
Read the last 8 pages of my "potential PPC Amiga real cheap" thread and you will see exactly where all this hostility comes from.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Waccoon on October 21, 2005, 01:15:18 PM
Quote
You have given me nothing that provides me with proof that selling GC hardware makes Nintendo lose money.

Again, the burdon of proof is yours.  Note that I never said you were right or wrong.

Quote
Adolescent provided an article blantantly telling you the system was costing Nintendo $100-108 just before the move to $99 which was just before they lowered their manufacturing costs again by going to rev C.

I asked you to back up your claim before he even got involved.  You still haven't confirmed that Nintendo makes a profit on hardware.

Quote
If you need more proof than that, start by proving you aren't an ignorant troll because all you are doing is choosing to ignore facts.

First, you need to actually post some facts.  So far, the only thing you've posted is Nintendo's quarterly report, which does not show hardware profit.

Quote
That's the sad logic of you and them. That's why the Amiga will stay DEAD.

The Amiga is dead because the company's ideas suck and so does their execution.  No level of price fixing will resolve that -- including a switch to Nintendo hardware.

Quote
Now I've also stated that Sony is making a profit selling the slimline PS2. Would you care for me to provide links?

Go for it -- so long as you post links for Gamecube, too.

Quote
You are saying by eliminating components from a manufacturing process, Nintendo actually increased their manufacturing costs?

I asked how much the console costs to manufacture, not how much Rev A is different from Rev C.  If you don't know, just say so.  :-)

Quote
In the end - what does anyone care what it costs to manufacture product X from company Y as long as they are happy paying pice Z?

You do.

Quote
I told you - get your head out of the Amiga waste bucket.

I see you're as desperate as ever to change the subject.  I'd expect you to be all too willing to spill the beans on Nintendo's manufacturing costs -- unless you don't know, of course.  :-)
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 21, 2005, 03:47:31 PM
@Waccoon

So just because adolescent posted a like that says the gamecube was profitable through Sept 2003 and cost UNDER $109 to manufacture and I didn't, then I didn't prove it to you.  He did.  The fact that you insist on me doing it is what makes you a troll as you keep repeating your statements without any obvious comprehension of my replies or the facts presented to you.

I can post articles about when Nintendo moved to the $149.99 price point they were about breaking even where as they were profitting at launch.  Then in those same articles they mention moving production to China.  Adolescen't post is some time after that when they were already producing in China and that's when the costs were at the sub $110 level already and they are also at Rev B at this point.

I've specifically outlined to you the differences in the Rev C board and given you an accurate timescale of when it was produced.  I've conceded that the Gamecube wasn't profitable for about 2-5 months between the price drop to $99 and the production of the Rec C board.

You are just a troll as your last couple of posts are mirror images and I'm sure you will again state I've proven nothing to you.  You take comments I make as an excuse to change the subject.

Yes, I do care how much I pay for ANY product, the less I pay the better and it better be worth the money.

http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000407062281

Quote
Update: it’s also important to remember that Nintendo doesn’t sell its consoles at a loss. If a $99 Revolution is a real possibility, we can expect the system to be only a fraction as powerful as the PlayStation 3 or Xbox 360.


Have a nice day.  :-P
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: amigadave on October 21, 2005, 07:30:03 PM
@ Wacoon,

Quote:  "That's why the Amiga is DEAD"

Sh!t, when did that happen?  I must have been asleep at the wheel or something. I had better inform the few thousand users that frequent this website and the many other thousands that still use their Amigas daily.  Oh, and while I am at it I'll tell the programmers that are still coding for it too so they can stop wasting their time.

The Amiga will never die, in fact I believe the number of users is slowly increasing through emulation and curiosity.

Pardon my intteruption of your flame war, the two of you can go back to arguing now. (lou you really need to let this go, or provide some hard facts, get a life)
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: c64_d0c on October 21, 2005, 08:17:09 PM
my bet is on the xbox360, it will rock the console world, but alot of people will buy a ps3 when it comes also since they got the xbox360. the nintendo will be the losing part again thats for sure... i am defently going to buy the xbox360, the xboxs is the 2005 amiga thats for sure :)
________
Montana Medical Marijuana (http://montana.dispensaries.org/)
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 21, 2005, 09:38:36 PM
Where are the hard facts that Nintendo loses money selling consoles?  2 link from established news sites have shown that Ninendo makes money selling consoles.

http://nintendoinsider.com/site/EEEZuAypVuTuOJPzyb.php
Quote
In the final corner, Nintendo has it much better. When the system wars began, Nintendo GameCube was actually making money for each system sold, as Nintendo didn’t bother with all the extra non-gaming functions of its competitors, like DVD movie playback. The system was still making Nintendo money at $150, and it wasn’t until its $99 price tag that it was estimated Nintendo was losing money – but only in the single digits.


http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000407062281
Quote
Update: it’s also important to remember that Nintendo doesn’t sell its consoles at a loss. If a $99 Revolution is a real possibility, we can expect the system to be only a fraction as powerful as the PlayStation 3 or Xbox 360.


Short of an accounting statement from Nintendo, what more proof do you need?  This is common industry knowledge.  I shouldn't even have to be defending this because it's so well-known that Nintendo has always profitted from console sales.

http://www.gamepro.com/nintendo/gamecube/games/news/22820.shtml

http://www.red-mercury.com/mmceo/mmceo05_20_2002.html

the link if you want to BUY a progressive scan enabled gamecube if yours was bought on or after May 2004: http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/systems/nintendogamecube/component_faq.jsp

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/07/30/nintendo_q2_results/
Quote
A surge in sales of its GameCube console pushed Nintendo's second-quarter income almost 100 per cent over the same period last year.

For the three months to 30 June 2004, Nintendo achieved a net income of ¥22.6bn ($202m), 96.5 per cent up on Q2 2003's ¥11.5bn ($103m).

Driving the gain was a 712.5 per cent increase in unit shipments, from 80,000 in Q2 2003 to 650,000 this past quarter.


log:
Oct 2003 - Nintendo production had been stopped due to low demand so a $99 is put into place. SUPRISE - sales jump higher than expcected.
Jan 2004 - Rev C Gamecubes are manufactured to meet demand.
May 2004 - Shipments hit the US market
Jun 2004 - 650,000 units shipped last quater and profits double for Nintendo

remember if they are on a store shelf, the manufacturer has already been PAID.

I can always get a life, can trolls EVER stop being trolls?
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: koaftder on October 21, 2005, 11:11:03 PM
Quote
log:
Oct 2003 - Nintendo production had been stopped due to low demand so a $99 is put into place. SUPRISE - sales jump higher than expcected.
Jan 2004 - Rev C Gamecubes are manufactured to meet demand.
May 2004 - Shipments hit the US market
Jun 2004 - 650,000 units shipped last quater and profits double for Nintendo

remember if they are on a store shelf, the manufacturer has already been PAID.

I can always get a life, can trolls EVER stop being trolls?


I got my gamecube from radioshack for 99.00. Now if nintendo got that whole 99 bucks, they might have made a profit. But they didnt, RadioShack took a cut. After all, they have advertising, stores and land to pay for, sales staff to pay, management overhead, etc. So radio shack makes say 25 bucks.  Now theres almost always a middle man, ie the distributor that doles the machines out to the retail outlets. They have buildings/land/staff etc. So say they make 10 bucks off that device.  Of course the device had to get to the distributor, probably via some sort of shipping company, who charges a fee, say 5 bucks. Of course, every time money shifts hands,  the government takes a cut, sales tax, import/export taxes. Lets say uncle sam gets 2 bucks. So with our most likely generous figure here, Nintendo makes 57 dollars on that gamecube.

Nintendo probably cant make a gamecube for 57 bucks. Lets say they can though, for arguments sake. Now take into account HQ sales staff, management, programmers, hardware engineers, QA staff, the guys in the mail room, the janitor, building and land to pay for, etc. Add in the advertising budget so kids can see the game cube commercials on tv, the magazine ads, trade shows, traveling promoters, etc.

Looks like a net loss on the device. But it doesnt even matter really, because the sale of the device is just a small part of the over all business model.

Now when you zoom out you see that they make their money selling games, licensing agreements with third party developers, accessories, nintendo power magazine, roayalties from patents, selling technology to other companies, service, and a dozen other things.

And they are cash flow positive, and pretty much always have been, which is a good thing, because ive gotten a lot of enjoyment over the years using their stuff.

Focusing on one small part of the picture ( the sale of the console ) is just missing the point, and arguing for arguings sake.

Now if everybody who submitted a comment to this thread just boned up on their c/c++ we could port mono over to AROS and expand the software library for the platform to some insaine level.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 22, 2005, 01:24:43 AM
@koaftder

Marketing costs are separate and effect every company's bottom line.  Profits from one product can be subsidized to promote a less profitable one so it's not something calculated simply and don't figure directly into manufacturing costs(which can be easily calculated).  It's simply manufacturing costs we are arguing.

Also an MSRP is not always ~ twice the actual costs.  It varies across different industries.  Infact, because they expect to sell software and a memory card and maybe a controller with every console sold, I would say that the GC's MSRP is only 10-20% higher than the actual cost to manufacture.

Now from a software point of view, it costs total about $2 to burn the disc and create the packaging per unit assuming for example 100,000 units.  Now development costs for the average GC/PSP/PS2 title are ~$800,000 per title ( http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/launchnews.asp?newsid=148719 ).  So if they make 100,000 copies and sell them all, then it only cost them $10 a title.  But if it sells one million copies, then the costs are only $2.80 per title.

After about 400,000 copies are sold and a timeline is met, a game goes "Player's Choice" and sells for 20-30 bucks.  They are still making a good profit.  I would say the MSRP of $50 means the store paid probably half that, maybe a bit more.  Either way, there is profit to be made on software.
As far as 3rd party software goes, platform holders probably make about $5 a title per copy sold.

Now everybody wants to talk about the real profits being in software...well if Nintendo only makes $5 per copy, per title on 3rd party software and they only release ~4 first party console games a year with a profit of ~$17 you can begin to see how selling all those gamecubes in April-June of 2004 made them double their profits over the same quarter of the previous year.  Take into account that rarely do games sell over 400,000 copies on the GC (except 1st party games)...you begin to see why making a profit on hardware is also part of their big picture.

Quote
Now if everybody who submitted a comment to this thread just boned up on their c/c++ we could port mono over to AROS and expand the software library for the platform to some insaine level.


Yes, exactly why I started the "potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP" thread.  To move the platform forward as a whole.  Instead of support, my idea was picked about for trolling's sake.  If you read through the whole thing, I learn some things along the way but also learn who the trolls were and who actually had "constructive" critisism.  Alot of the original troll arguments against it, I dissipated much later on in the thread as the Gamecube modder/homebrew developer community made some break-thrus and an excellent MOD chip (www.qoobchip.com) was released...and is now installed in my Rev C. Gamecube (vs. my much more valuable Rev A.).

Quite a read for anyone here who wonders where the hostility toward adolescent and Waccoon comes from.  Read it all and make up your own mind.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: koaftder on October 22, 2005, 03:19:18 AM
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
@koaftder

Marketing costs are separate and effect every company's bottom line.  Profits from one product can be subsidized to promote a less profitable one so it's not something calculated simply and don't figure directly into manufacturing costs(which can be easily calculated).  It's simply manufacturing costs we are arguing.

Also an MSRP is not always ~ twice the actual costs.  It varies across different industries.  Infact, because they expect to sell software and a memory card and maybe a controller with every console sold, I would say that the GC's MSRP is only 10-20% higher than the actual cost to manufacture.

Now from a software point of view, it costs total about $2 to burn the disc and create the packaging per unit assuming for example 100,000 units.  Now development costs for the average GC/PSP/PS2 title are ~$800,000 per title ( http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/launchnews.asp?newsid=148719 ).  So if they make 100,000 copies and sell them all, then it only cost them $10 a title.  But if it sells one million copies, then the costs are only $2.80 per title.

After about 400,000 copies are sold and a timeline is met, a game goes "Player's Choice" and sells for 20-30 bucks.  They are still making a good profit.  I would say the MSRP of $50 means the store paid probably half that, maybe a bit more.  Either way, there is profit to be made on software.
As far as 3rd party software goes, platform holders probably make about $5 a title per copy sold.

Now everybody wants to talk about the real profits being in software...well if Nintendo only makes $5 per copy, per title on 3rd party software and they only release ~4 first party console games a year with a profit of ~$17 you can begin to see how selling all those gamecubes in April-June of 2004 made them double their profits over the same quarter of the previous year.  Take into account that rarely do games sell over 400,000 copies on the GC (except 1st party games)...you begin to see why making a profit on hardware is also part of their big picture.

Quote
Now if everybody who submitted a comment to this thread just boned up on their c/c++ we could port mono over to AROS and expand the software library for the platform to some insaine level.


Yes, exactly why I started the "potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP" thread.  To move the platform forward as a whole.  Instead of support, my idea was picked about for trolling's sake.  If you read through the whole thing, I learn some things along the way but also learn who the trolls were and who actually had "constructive" critisism.  Alot of the original troll arguments against it, I dissipated much later on in the thread as the Gamecube modder/homebrew developer community made some break-thrus and an excellent MOD chip (www.qoobchip.com) was released...and is now installed in my Rev C. Gamecube (vs. my much more valuable Rev A.).

Quite a read for anyone here who wonders where the hostility toward adolescent and Waccoon comes from.  Read it all and make up your own mind.


Youve made a lot of good points. I agree that it's important to be as profitable on the hardware as possible. Every little bit adds up.

I have a little bit of a problem with AROS. Dont get me wrong, i love AROS, i think it's great. Major gripe is memory protection. AROS seems to strive towards compatability with 3.1. I dont think this is a good direction.

I would like to float the upper level API's on the L4 kernel. We would get a tight, lightweight fast kernel with threads, first class IPC, memory protection, multiproc support that runs on like 5 major processor architectures.

ive been thinking of forking aros, but am concerned that it might end up fragmenting things and generally causing problems.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Waccoon on October 22, 2005, 08:56:58 AM
Quote
So just because adolescent posted a like that says the gamecube was profitable through Sept 2003 and cost UNDER $109 to manufacture and I didn't, then I didn't prove it to you. He did. The fact that you insist on me doing it is what makes you a troll as you keep repeating your statements without and obvious comprehension of my replies or the facts presented to you.

You still haven't figured out that I never agreed or disagreed with Adolescent?  I asked for some proof for your claim, not what you thought about everyone else's comments.

Quote
I've specifically outlined to you the differences in the Rev C board and given you an accurate timescale of when it was produced.

You did, but that's not what I asked.

Quote
You are just a troll as your last couple of posts are mirror images and I'm sure you will again state I've proven nothing to you. You take comments I make as an excuse to change the subject.

See above.

Quote
Yes, I do care how much I pay for ANY product, the less I pay the better and it better be worth the money.

Having lots of fun upgrading your Gamecube so you can run Linux?  Didn't you say in your PPC thread that you have no interest in Linux?

Quote
Where are the hard facts that Nintendo loses money selling consoles? 2 link from established news sites have shown that Ninendo makes money selling consoles.

Congradulations.  You've finally made a breakthrough.

In a previous post, I said, "Note that I never said you were right or wrong".  Instead, I asked you to back up your argument with a source.

It took, what...  several days, dozens of posts, a huge number of sub-topics, and plenty of name-calling for you to deliver?

Whether I like your sources is irrelevant.  All I did was ask for some.

Quote
Koaftder:  Nintendo probably cant make a gamecube for 57 bucks.

We still don't know the actual store cost, so that's a whole new can of worms.

When I was working in a camera store, we made most of our profit on film and accessories.  Our markup on the actual cameras was less than 10%.  I assume game stores operate on similar terms.  They REALLY don't like it if you get the system in one place and buy your games elsewhere.  I bought my memory card before I got the console, and the salesman was shocked that I didn't want a memory card to go with my Cube.

To make him feel better, I told him I bought everything at that store, just on different days.  ;-)

Quote
Looks like a net loss on the device.

My personal belief is that Nintendo makes a gross profit on the hardware, but makes a net loss.  There's a lot of ways to interpret profit, which is why I'm curious about the manufacturing cost and store cost.  Of course, manufacturing cost is something only Nintendo knows.

Quote
Lou:  Also an MSRP is not always ~ twice the actual costs. It varies across different industries.

Correct.  I learned the hard way that selling cameras is a lousy business.

Our markup on film processing, however, was quite remarkable.  I think it was 60%.  Gotta pay for that $100,000 Kodak processor and $10,000-a-year service contract, somehow.  (Hint:  the machines don't come with warantees, they require "service contracts").

Quote
Yes, exactly why I started the "potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP" thread. To move the platform forward as a whole. Instead of support, my idea was picked about for trolling's sake.

That's because your behavior over there is much the same as over here.  Getting you to post proof is like pulling teeth.  Plus, your persistent use of all caps and name-calling gets on everyone's nerves, which is why so few people comment on that thread, even though so many people have read it.

Quote
Quite a read for anyone here who wonders where the hostility toward adolescent and Waccoon comes from.

From you, mostly.  Seriously, who in this thread has made the most hostile comments, Mr. Calls Everyone an I.A.C.

Unlike you, I don't respond to everything I don't like with, "You're just a trolling idiot."

Quote
Koaftder:  AROS seems to strive towards compatability with 3.1. I dont think this is a good direction.

That's my big problem with it, too.  Of course, it crashes like crazy on all of my computers every time I try to read a CD-ROM.  Obviously, there's a long way to go, and it's still not trying to be better than OS3.x at its core.

Quote
ive been thinking of forking aros, but am concerned that it might end up fragmenting things and generally causing problems.

I forked a project called Oekaki Poteto, and now I'm the official developer.  Of course, I'm the only one working on it -- nobody else wanted to fix the bugs and critical security problems that were, like, a year old.  :lol:
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 22, 2005, 05:30:32 PM
@koaftder

Well AROS's mission statement is to be %100 3.1 compatible with "some" updates/modernization.

@Waccoon

you just keep proving why you are a troll
and yes, I have no interest in Linux, you are correct but if all I had to do to run an alternate OS on the GC was install a $50 mod chip that takes 10 minutes to install, I think the Amiga community has gone through alot more hassel to upgrade their machines and still be nowhere near the power of a Gamecube.  Hence, my installing Linux was an excersise in installing a OS that runs on the Gamecube and I have succeeded and proved a point.

If Linux can be compiled and run on the GC and access a network file system and can read DVD R/RW discs, why can't AROS or an AOS4 version run off it.  Alot of what the GC is critisized for lacking, Revolution has, for instance USB 2.0 ports.

Now AOS4 could be written to run off of the GC but check if it's running on Revolution hardware and take advantage of that.  In my "PPC Amiga..." thread I predicted that a game for the GC would run enhanced on Revolution...if you read cube.ign.com/mail the editor there says this is a possibility with Zelda.  I predicted this in like March.  The Zelda screen shots (newest ones anyway) are in a resolution much higher than 640x480...interesting...

Infact, as Revolution is just an "upgraded" Gamecube, it's possible that it's emulation of GC software may allow for graphical enhancements like the PS1 emulators and even eliminate framerate drops in old GC titles like Madden football.

Revolution could be the G5 Amiga hardware platform everybody wants...and at $199, I'm sold.
One of the spec sheets I've read on the GC says that it can produce a 720p display, however as that resolution is impractial for GC games but great for a desktop.  A VGA cable is available and even makeable if you have a Rev A/B gamecube.  I can't imagine Revolution being less capable as Nintendo has stated that you'll be able to plug it into a computer monitor.

Developers comment on Revolutions's controller:
http://cube.ign.com/articles/660/660408p1.html
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Turambar on October 22, 2005, 08:02:17 PM
Just thought i'd add a note that say that my current gamecube (previous cube was a panasonic q which i had to sell when times were hard :-()still has both serial ports and the dv out and i purchased it earlier this year (resident evil 4 bundle) so there must still have been a fair few older rev Gamecubes sitting in storage waiting to be sold.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: koaftder on October 22, 2005, 08:19:25 PM
@lou_dias

Have you installed a mod chip on your gamecube?
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 22, 2005, 11:14:36 PM
yes, I mean Nintendo will let you trade it in for a fee if you bought a Rev C...

...but pop off the Serial Port 1 Adapter cover and see if the connector is still there...I have a cover for Serial Port 1 on my Rev C but no actual port there when I remove it.  The Serial ports are on either side of the GC, the parralel port is in another corner incase you got confused.

Yes my modchip is installed.  It's the qoob PRO chip with 2MB of flashram that is flashed via USB from my PC.  On the flashram I have the qoob bios 1.3c, an mp3 player and GC-Linux 2.6.1, I can select to load the mp3 player or Linux from the bios's menu or go to the original Gamecube boot.

A ported "Kickstart" would easily fit on there...one that would boot the OS from DVD or network file system...

I ordered the chip and case-MOD bundle (to fit full size DVDs) for a total of $98 ($74.99 + s/h+duty) from www.modchipworld.com that price includes shipping and an import duty took about a week to get it.  The qoob Pro by itself is $49.99
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: koaftder on October 23, 2005, 12:00:20 AM
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
yes, I mean Nintendo will let you trade it in for a fee if you bought a Rev C...

...but pop off the Serial Port 1 Adapter cover and see if the connector is still there...I have a cover for Serial Port 1 on my Rev C but no actual port there when I remove it.  The Serial ports are on either side of the GC, the parralel port is in another corner incase you got confused.

Yes my modchip is installed.  It's the qoob PRO chip with 2MB of flashram that is flashed via USB from my PC.  On the flashram I have the qoob bios 1.3c, an mp3 player and GC-Linux 2.6.1, I can select to load the mp3 player or Linux from the bios's menu or go to the original Gamecube boot.

A ported "Kickstart" would easily fit on there...one that would boot the OS from DVD or network file system...

I ordered the chip and case-MOD bundle (to fit full size DVDs) for a total of $98 ($74.99 + s/h+duty) from www.modchipworld.com that price includes shipping and an import duty took about a week to get it.  The qoob Pro by itself is $49.99


Cool, where can i get one? What do i have to do to install it? I'll demonstrate L4 kernel running on x86, MACppc and GC .
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 23, 2005, 05:24:11 PM
Quote

koaftder wrote:
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
I ordered the chip and case-MOD bundle (to fit full size DVDs) for a total of $98 ($74.99 + s/h+duty) from www.modchipworld.com that price includes shipping and an import duty took about a week to get it.  The qoob Pro by itself is $49.99


Cool, where can i get one? What do i have to do to install it? I'll demonstrate L4 kernel running on x86, MACppc and GC .


uh, didn't I just tell you?
installation instructions are on www.qoobchip.com

If you don't get the case mod, you'll have to get 3" rewriteable DVD's or leave the top of the case off and use 5" dvd's.

check:
www.gc-linux.org
www.gcdev.com
http://modthatcube.pxn-os.com/main.htm

for everything you need to know

what's the L4 kernal?
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 27, 2005, 12:24:08 PM
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12554

Some much for %100 backward compatability.
Sad when the PS2 isn't even backwards compatible with itself, how can you expect the PS3 to be.

As for 360, it just won't have the muscle to "emulate" all the regular XBOX titles.  Part of there "compatibility" comes from downloading recompiled .xbe files from what I hear.  Media will still come from the original XBOX game like the Amiga PPC Quake ports but the executable will come from harddrive as it seems the harddrive is a requirement for backwards compatibility.

As for the GC, since it's escentially an upgraded Gamecube, I'm still holding to my theory that certain future Gamecube titles will be "aware" of the fact that they are running on Revolution hardware and run "enhanced".  Be it higher polygons or using the Rev controller or more on-screen enemies or possibly running at 720p (if Nintendo ever decides to support HD)...
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: koaftder on October 27, 2005, 12:38:51 PM
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12554

Some much for %100 backward compatability.
Sad when the PS2 isn't even backwards compatible with itself, how can you expect the PS3 to be.

As for 360, it just won't have the muscle to "emulate" all the regular XBOX titles.  Part of there "compatibility" comes from downloading recompiled .xbe files from what I hear.  Media will still come from the original XBOX game like the Amiga PPC Quake ports but the executable will come from harddrive as it seems the harddrive is a requirement for backwards compatibility.

As for the GC, since it's escentially an upgraded Gamecube, I'm still holding to my theory that certain future Gamecube titles will be "aware" of the fact that they are running on Revolution hardware and run "enhanced".  Be it higher polygons or using the Rev controller or more on-screen enemies or possibly running at 720p (if Nintendo ever decides to support HD)...


I dont think most people care about backwards compatability with consoles anyway. Sure it would be a plus, but if i have GC titles, i most likely own a GC to play them on. If i didnt, i probably wouldnt buy GC titles to play on my brand new nintendo console.

And why bother making it backwards compatable, when you can sell your retro versions all over again after they have been ported?

Cmon, you know you;d pay 20 bucks to play mario 3 on your new nintendo.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 27, 2005, 03:19:15 PM
No, I play it better with JNES on my PC. :P
Not to mention ZSNES and Project64... Dolwin is coming along...

Then there's ePSXe and WinUAE and MAME, Stella, Gens...

ps,

What's the L4 kernel?
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 27, 2005, 05:26:29 PM
Gee, a 360 exclusive launch title developer slams the Revolution controller: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12577

I think MS is scared that Revolution could dethrone the 360 as the FPS platform.

His comments are rather stupid.  Though I'll agree that there is nothing wrong with the 360 controller...there's also nothing new about it and it (to me) resembles a Dreamcast controller, not Revolution's...

On the PS3, while the controller is ugly as poo, I hear it feels good in your hands.  Again, nothing new there either.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: adolescent on October 30, 2005, 04:55:35 PM
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
I think MS is scared that Revolution could dethrone the 360 as the FPS platform.


I don't think that MS is scared.  Neither does anybody else.  But, only time will tell.

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1456&Itemid=2

Quote
Xbox 360 will overtake Nintendo’s Revolution, selling almost twice as many next-gen consoles by 2010.



Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 30, 2005, 07:12:11 PM
interesting and useless "prediction" since not one console of any system has been sold yet.  Also the word "overtake" implys a "lead" to overtake. and also for 5 years from now.

The way that loud mouth from Epic games was talking (in the link I posted), he was going over the top on alot of things, then at the end when Matt, the editor for the Gamecube division of IGN.com mentioned the games he was looking forward to (mostly Revolution titles) the crowd was really behind him.  Interesting how half the audience owned Gamecubes and 1/10 owned it as their sole console.  The moron from Epic games says you can't have a market with 10%...ignoring the fact that over half the audience actually owned gamecubes.

I wonder how many people own a PS2 or an XBOX as their sole system?  The guy was just an arrogant arse protecting his own interests in his 360 product - Gears of War.

Interestly during that show, Matt C. from IGN.com had previously been looking forward to alot of 360 launch titles (he owns and loves all systems for their individual features) until he got to play them.  Perfect Dark Zero being one of them.  I keep telling people the 1st generation of 360/PS3 titles are only going to be twice as powerful as the current XBox.  Multi-core programming is not in it's prime yet.  The stills look great but unless it's running a video, having 3x the screen space to fill with only 2x the power makes the animation look choppy.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: adolescent on October 30, 2005, 10:03:22 PM
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
Also the word "overtake" implys a "lead" to overtake. and also for 5 years from now.


Since you have trouble reading, I'll quote it again.

Quote
Xbox 360 will overtake Nintendo’s Revolution, selling almost twice as many next-gen consoles by 2010.


True, it does say overtake, but not 5 years from now.  The part you missed was that they're predicting the 360 to sell almost twice as many by the year 2010.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 30, 2005, 10:34:42 PM
it's one man's meaningless prediction.  It's escentially saying that 360 is coming out first and selling like crap and revolution will outsell it with a quickness even though it comes out almost a year later (possibly) then for some unknown reason, sales magically pick up and it doubles Revolution's sales by 2010....meanwhile no mention of PS3...

A useless opinion.  Only time can and will tell.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: MskoDestny on October 31, 2005, 02:23:09 AM
Well seeing as each of Nintendo's consoles has sold less than it's predecessor and that there are plenty of reasons to believe that the 360 will sell better than the original XBox the 5:1 prediction doesn't sound completely unreasonable.

I also don't see the Revolution's controller being all that great for FPS games. There just aren't enough buttons for most of them (jump, crouch, fire, secondary fire, weapon switching, flashlight, etc.). RTS games should play well though. Frankly, I've played Call of Duty 2 on the 360 and aiming wasn't all that hard and the positioning of the triggers works particularly well for that kind of game.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on October 31, 2005, 10:43:47 PM
For fuel to the 360 fire:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=23889856

@MskoDestny

You do know that you can add on to the controller right?  Watch the video.  It's expandable by plugging addons into it.   Nintendo is including the "nun-chuk" addon that adds an analog stick and 2 shoulder button held in your left hand.  Back to the controller, it offers easy access to a D-pad, B-trigger button and A-topside button.

Simple things like turning left and right can be done by twisting the controller clockwise and counter-clockwise along the axis that points towards the screen.  Looking up or down can be done by pointing the controller over the top or underneath the TV screen.  It can be quite instinctive once you get used to it.

It changes the way you play.  Don't get stuck in the traditional interface rut.

Reloading can be like the arcade gun games where you "fire" off-screen to reload.

Revolution's controller possibilities are limitless, not limited.  A traditional controller dock was prototyped by IGN.com.  The "remote" just docks into the center of a traditional controller adapter and gives you all your analog sticks and buttons for "traditional" games but still gives you the 3D spatial movement technology.

http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=5732

ps,
it was 2:1 not 5:1 and I believe the article was targeting the US market only, good luck in Japan  :-P
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: adolescent on November 01, 2005, 12:11:45 AM
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
it was 2:1 not 5:1 and I believe the article was targeting the US market only, good luck in Japan  :-P


Japan is such a small market these days that it's not as important as far as total sales numbers are concerned.  The real benefit to being successful in Japan is to attract Japanese developers.  
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 01, 2005, 12:38:37 AM
Quote

adolescent wrote:
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
it was 2:1 not 5:1 and I believe the article was targeting the US market only, good luck in Japan  :-P


Japan is such a small market these days that it's not as important as far as total sales numbers are concerned.  The real benefit to being successful in Japan is to attract Japanese developers.  


http://the-magicbox.com/topten.htm

yeah real small - for Microsoft  :-D
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: MskoDestny on November 01, 2005, 02:38:44 AM
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
You do know that you can add on to the controller right?  Watch the video.  It's expandable by plugging addons into it.   Nintendo is including the "nun-chuk" addon that adds an analog stick and 2 shoulder button held in your left hand.  Back to the controller, it offers easy access to a D-pad, B-trigger button and A-topside button.

Even with the silly analog stick dongle you've got fewer buttons than the Gamecube controller and I found it inadequate for FPS games.

Quote
Simple things like turning left and right can be done by twisting the controller clockwise and counter-clockwise along the axis that points towards the screen.  Looking up or down can be done by pointing the controller over the top or underneath the TV screen.  It can be quite instinctive once you get used to it.

I don't really see how it's more instinctive. In the case of a traditional controller you push the stick left and you look left with the Revolution controller I turn my hand left and I look left. If I taped the revolution controller to my head then indeed it would be more instinctive. It will offer greater precision for FPS games, but the lack of buttons makes it ineffective for that purpose. RTS games will probably work great as well as a number of other genres; however, FPS games won't work well without a lot of simplification.

Quote
It changes the way you play.  Don't get stuck in the traditional interface rut.

Reloading can be like the arcade gun games where you "fire" off-screen to reload.

This won't work if you're using the direction of the remote-thing to look with. Every time you go to reload you'd end up turning yourself around. Off screen reloading really only works well for games on rails like traditional light-gun games.

Quote
Revolution's controller possibilities are limitless, not limited.  A traditional controller dock was prototyped by IGN.com.  The "remote" just docks into the center of a traditional controller adapter and gives you all your analog sticks and buttons for "traditional" games but still gives you the 3D spatial movement technology.

I really don't see the appeal of having a bunch of tacky add-ons to the controller rather than just having a separate controller. The whole add-on concept seems to be a big compromise between the different needs the controller tries to fit. Simplicity and approachability for the casual and non-gamer crowd, useability for newer games that need a few extra buttons and/or an analog stick, and compatability with SNES,N64, and Gamecube games. In the end it turns into a mess. They probably would have been better off adding the motion/position sensing stuff ot a revved Gamecube controller.

Quote
http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=5732

This would seem to further validate my point. They got so obsessed with making the controller more accessible to the casual and non-gamer crowd that they made it unsuitable for a lot of existing game types without jamming it into a traditional controller.

I really think Sega had the right idea here. They made specialized controllers for games that needed it, like the fishing controller (which was motion sensing by the way) and the Samba de Amigo Marracas. Too bad Sega didn't have the money to fight the marketing war.

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it was 2:1 not 5:1

Oops, that's what I get for posting when I'm sleepy. Don't know where that 5:1 number came from.

Quote
and I believe the article was targeting the US market only, good luck in Japan  :-P

Initial reports suggest that Microsoft has gained some mindshare in Japan with the 360. It's not entirely clear how well that mindshare will turn into marketshare, but it's progress none the less.

Quote
For fuel to the 360 fire:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=23889856


From the article:
Quote
[UPDATE] Well, over the weekend, eagle-eyed reader Mike Scott pointed out that in GameSpot's October 27 video Q&A with the designers of Condemned, one developer said the studio is using the Xbox 360's second thread to give opponents improved artificial intelligence. Since Sega said the game will go on sale alongside the Xbox 360 on November 22nd, it turns out the Inquirer was wrong.


Bogus or not bogus?: Bogus, apparently.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if the other launch titles were all single-threaded. I'm pretty sure they all started life on other platforms and moving to a multi-threaded design requires quite a bit of rewriting. Given the pressure to get these titles out by launch day, I'm not surprised.

Titles like PGR3 and DOA4 will be the first to start truly showing what the 360 hardware can do.

Looks like the Revolution will be using one or two PPE cores and not a G5(or two) though. Check out this article over at Ars Technica: http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/revolution.ars

At first it looked like mostly speculation until I got to this bit:
Quote
I now have very good reason to believe that I was correct the first time, and that Revolution will use the same PPE core that powers the Cell and the Xenon. On this point, I have to appeal to inside information the source and nature of which I won't characterize. IBM has sold this core to all three console makers as a media processing monster that packs a lot of power into a small die area, and they tried to sell Apple on it as a laptop core based on those very qualities.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Waccoon on November 01, 2005, 11:00:09 AM
Quote
Lou:  and yes, I have no interest in Linux, you are correct but if all I had to do to run an alternate OS on the GC was install a $50 mod chip that takes 10 minutes to install, I think the Amiga community has gone through alot more hassel to upgrade their machines and still be nowhere near the power of a Gamecube

Yeah, we all know what's possible with all that memory.

Don't forgot to add in your ethernet adapter, mouse, keyboard, new case, card reader, memory card, other easily overlooked stuff, etc.  Have fun voiding your Gamecube warranty, everyone, and don't run into the problem Lou had when his Gamecube didn't turn on.

Oh yeah, don't forget all those deals on eBay, because only Idiot Ass Clowns pay MSRP.

I got my Mac mini on eBay for $335, and it's a full computer with 256MB or RAM and a real PPC that blows away Gamecube in every possible respect.  Obviously, this is unacceptable for the Amiga community.  We need Nintendo.

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Lou:  I predicted that a game for the GC would run enhanced on Revolution...if you read cube.ign.com/mail the editor there says this is a possibility with Zelda.

Possibility?  Editors making hopeful predictions?  Say it isn't so!

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Lou:  As for the GC, since it's escentially an upgraded Gamecube

Proof?  Nobody knows at this point how Revolution runs Gamecube games.  You have no trouble passing off your speculations as proof, of course.

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Lou:  As for 360, it just won't have the muscle to "emulate" all the regular XBOX titles.

This comes from hands-on experience, I take it?

Quote
I'm still holding to my theory that certain future Gamecube titles will be "aware" of the fact that they are running on Revolution hardware and run "enhanced".

That can be done easily with seperate compiles.  I think Revolution's Gamecube mode will work like the Commodore 128 did when you went into "go 64."

That's not to say old games won't run better on new hardware.  But, the game will obviously have to be fooled into thining it's running on a Gamecube.  Post-Revolution Gamecube titles can very easily have ways of detecting the new hardware.  How the old games behave is questionable.

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koafder:  And why bother making it backwards compatable, when you can sell your retro versions all over again after they have been ported?

Not having to unplug everything repeatedly and have yet another box lying around?

I play all my old console games on my PC for this very reason.  Plus, they all tend to run better on emulators than on the original systems, and I can remap controls so I can play them much better using PC controllers.  A keyboard is just soooooo much better than a crappy Genesis controller or digital joystick.

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koafder:  Cmon, you know you;d pay 20 bucks to play mario 3 on your new nintendo.

This is my big beef with Nintendo's claim of being able to run your old games.  You're not getting backwards compatibiltiy with your existing games.  You have to relicense everything into a "native" format for the new systems, even if it is running on a software emulator.

Paying an Internet subscription service is even worse.  You don't own anything, and you pay even if you don't download anything.  Pretty soon, you won't even have game discs, anymore, when you can just pay a monthly fee.

Oh, wait... that's innovation at work.  That's always a good thing, isn't it?

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Lou:  interesting and useless "prediction" since not one console of any system has been sold yet.

Words to live by, unless you're explaining exactly how Revolution works when Nintendo hasn't even finalized the hardware, and that the new systems will only be twice as fast as XBox becuase Microsoft and Sony programmers don't know how to code for multiple cores.

I remember these same kinds of arguments when Playstation and Saturn were set for release.

Quote
Lou:  I keep telling people the 1st generation of 360/PS3 titles are only going to be twice as powerful as the current XBox. Multi-core programming is not in it's prime yet.

Especially since PCs have been using lots of mutithreaded software for years.  Yup.  Nobody knows a damn thing about multiple CPUs, especially since XBox 360 runs a Windows core, which has supported similar hardware on servers since its NT days.

Of course, Nintendo will have multiple cores, too, but Nintendo developers are immune to such performance problems because they're much smarter than those poor, drooling apes developing games for Microsoft and Sony.

It's safe to say developers won't be using the hardware to its full potential until after a few years (which is always the case with console hardware), but "twice as powerful as XBox" is really pushing it, Lou.

Quote
Lou:  The stills look great but unless it's running a video, having 3x the screen space to fill with only 2x the power makes the animation look choppy.

Yeah, we all know the GPUs are only twice as fast, too, and choppy frame rates are always the fault of the hardware, never the fault of developers making demos for unreleased hardware.

Oh yeah, isn't Revolution going to be less powerful than XBox 360 and PS3?  I suppose that means Nintendo games will be slideshows.  Everyone knows these new CPUs are incapable of anything useful, especially since all three next-gen consoles are basicly the same architecture designed by the same supplier.

Quote
Lou:  You do know that you can add on to the controller right?

Ever notice how add-ons don't sell very well?  People prefer all-in-one solutions when it comes to consoles, even if they cost a fortune.  Otherwise, why even call them consoles?

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Lou:  Reloading can be like the arcade gun games where you "fire" off-screen to reload.

Yeah, but arcade games have plastic guns with triggers and kick-back, not rectangular remote controls with badly placed buttons.  :-)

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Lou:  yeah real small - for Microsoft

What's so surprising?  With XBox 360 around the corner, nobody is going to buy an XBox now.

Hmmm... I wonder how many Gamecubes will sell right before the launch of Revolution.

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MskoDestny:  Even with the silly analog stick dongle you've got fewer buttons than the Gamecube controller and I found it inadequate for FPS games.

People who adore FPS'ers are not Nintendo's target audience.

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MskoDestny:  Even with the silly analog stick dongle you've got fewer buttons than the Gamecube controller and I found it inadequate for FPS games.

Fewer buttons isn't always a bad thing.  What bugs me is that people are probably going to drop it constantly, and the fact that it's just so ergonomicly incorrect.  I'm also not too impressed that the analog controller is connected to the remote with a wire, despite all this glorification over wireless technology.  It's fun to have a 2-foot cord in your lap while you're waving your remote in the air.  I also wonder what this will do to the Carpel Tunnel Generation.

As an interface designer, I think the controller is a classic example of bad execution, approved by a manager instead of a game designer.  If I had designed it, I would have made it a discus with a thumb handle.

How much you wanna bet this controller was the direct result of some stuffy exec raging over the success of the EyeToy?  I'm sure with Nintendo's emphasis on affordable hardware, people will have a blast playing it on their 2000" plasma TVs.

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MskoDestny:  I don't really see how it's more instinctive.

The typical buzzword is to say that it is "natural."

If you want natural, go for a walk, get some friends together, and go to the park and play a game of tennis.  Entertainment technology is supposed to overcome natural limitations that prevents us from experiencing very atypical things, like the dangerous sport of car racing, space exploration, randomly killing people, etc.  You don't need lots of buttons to do that, but you need more than a fat, rectangular magic wand.

Seriously, think about it.  If this controller had been available seperately for the Gamecube, would it sell?  Would people just think it's a gimmick and a passing fad?

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MskoDestny:  Off screen reloading really only works well for games on rails like traditional light-gun games.

That's what bugs me most.  The N64 had a lot of issues with its early 3D platform games because you couldn't adjust the camera.  Dreamcast did not improve this very much, as Sonic Adventure proved quite well.  Once Sony introduced controllers two analog sticks, it became painfully obvious that people could control cameras much, much better than any AI routine can, and since you can look around only when you expect it to happen, it feels more "natural" than when the game does everything for you.

Revolution will likely have a lot of games that play "on rails," and that's not a good thing.

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MskoDestny:  The whole add-on concept seems to be a big compromise between the different needs the controller tries to fit.

Yeah.  Most games that could really benefit from a unique controller are best with a purpose-built controller, like, as you suggested, Sega's fishing pole.

Revolution's controller seems more like, "PowerGlove, Part Deux: we'll get it right this time.  Honest!"

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MskoDestny:  Simplicity and approachability for the casual and non-gamer crowd

Nintendo's audience is the younger group of gamers.  I think the real reason why Nintendo is going so cheap with their new console (low performance, no HDTV), is because they feel their core audience is too young and inexperienced to care about power, visual quality, lots of features, and so on.  This may make Revolution profitable for that core audience if they keep their costs under control, but if Nintendo isn't careful, they'll wind up like Sega -- having to drop out of the hardware race altogether, and make their games for much more powerful machines.

Nintendo is one of the world's leading and most powerful software developers.  They really don't belong in the hardware market if this is all they can deliver.  Personally, I think Revolution will hold them back.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 01, 2005, 12:57:35 PM
@MskoDestny

Revolution offers the possibility of using Gamecube controllers.  Wether that's for Gamecube cames only, we don't know yet.  It should be noted that a wired version of the Revolution controller was demoed to several editors running on the Gamecube.  
On the "remote" controller: opinions vary.  We'll leave it at that.

On your article.  Did you read it?

Quote
The kind of gameplay-centric code that Nintendo wants to write—the sort that developers are having a hard time making run on the PS3 and the Xbox 360—can be done with the PPE, but the key will be in increasing the amount of L2 cache in the design. A large on-die L2 cache, possibly in combination with a larger off-chip 1T SRAM cache, will give the processor's integer and branchy code performance a huge boost. It will also make the architecture more developer-friendly, insofar as it's a more traditional two- or four-threaded design with enough cache to do at least some justice to all running threads if implemented carefully.


a PPC core it a PPC core, but Nintendo's will have a large cache (like the Gamecube did) and use branch predicting Out of Order executing cpu (as opposed to the 360's In-Order-Executing) which is what gives desktop cpu's alot of their processing power beyond just the MHz race.  It's like choosing an AMD 3400 over a Pentium 3.4GHz.  This is exactly what I've always been saying across multiple threads on this site.  It makes programming traditional as opposed to having to specify what code runs on what core.  This is what makes Revolution a good potential desktop PC platform for OS4.

Revolution looks to be very developer-friendly.

@Waccoon
Quote
Yeah, we all know what's possible with all that memory.

Don't forgot to add in your ethernet adapter, mouse, keyboard, new case, card reader, memory card, other easily overlooked stuff, etc. Have fun voiding your Gamecube warranty, everyone, and don't run into the problem Lou had when his Gamecube didn't turn on.

Oh yeah, don't forget all those deals on eBay, because only Idiot Ass Clowns pay MSRP.

I got my Mac mini on eBay for $335, and it's a full computer with 256MB or RAM and a real PPC that blows away Gamecube in every possible respect. Obviously, this is unacceptable for the Amiga community. We need Nintendo.


typical stuff you buy with any PC purchase.  Your point?  Oh - do you use our Amiga keyboard on your PC?  Didn't think so...but I have spare PS/2 keyboard laying around from small "upgrades".  If you want to pay $70 for a brand new wireless keyboard, that's you issue, not mine.  By the way, when was the last time anyone bought "new" Amiga hardware?  Doesn't most of it around here come from ebay?  And isn't it 12-20 years old too boot?

As for your Mac-mini, should I go quote the thread where you complain about how slow it is?  And how much faster OS 4 would run on it because it's a small and efficient OS?  That's also why OS4 could run on a GC.  I never said the GC is the perfect OS4 platform, just a potential one to help grow the market.

As for XBOX emulation, I can post numerous articles on it.  Microsoft has stated that a harddrive is mandatory for emulation.  The 360 has NO hardware in common on any level with the XBOX.  Nintendo is using the exact same hardware developers for Revolution.  Ofcourse you'll demand that I "prove it" in your typical (I won't say it) fashion.  So I will when I get home from work.

About market size in Japan.  No one has bought an Xbox as the 360 is around the corner...but noone has ever really bought an XBOX in Japan.  Ever.  Didn't they break 100k units sold only this year?  And that's in 4 years of sales.   Yes, the 360 has no where to go but up in sales over the Xbox.  According to polls around the world, it's Sony who is going to take a hit in market share next generation.  Both Nintendo AND Microsoft will be increasing their market share.

Quote
Hmmm... I wonder how many Gamecubes will sell right before the launch of Revolution.


I don't know but Nintendo will continue to sell them as long as people buy them.  Look at PS1 sales...  If it makes a profit, it will stay on the market until there are no more orders...unlike the XBox.  MS can't wait to get those off the shelves.  Didn't production stop in June?

Also, Nintendo is not targeting "kids", they never have.  If you think Super Mario 64 was just for kids...or any of their other games...you have issues.  Nintendo is trying to bring in people who are not normally gamers now.  They've been doing this with the Nintendo DS already and quite succesfully.

Your opinions are - just that.
My predictions are - just that as well.

We can agree to disagree.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: koaftder on November 01, 2005, 01:26:29 PM
Lou:

Damn, why post about the immaturity of multiproc programming? It's a non issue with developers. Multithreading has been around for 20 years+. Most of us are very familiar with threading libs. It's old stuff. Kernel distributes threads accross processors, and if you are anal, you specify your thread towards a specific proc.

Old skool game programming was the same. A system is chock full of procs. A gramhics processor, the main processor, the sound processor, an audio processor, etc. Lots of cores with lots of programabiity hanging out on a bus.

Things are more consolidated now. There is less time spent banging on hardware, more time spent on other things.

The analog stick for controlling camera is awful. Now a player has to control the character and the camera. It's not all that fun. Look at super mario sunshine. You are constantly having to move the camera view around, this sucks. Often it doesnt matter anyway, ive seen a few levels where even the manual camera view constantly gets in the way.

There is this level were you have to make your way up the backside of a ride, and the limits are so tight, you basically have to play it by feel and hope you get where you need to go, because you cant see whats going on.

You cant blame the controller on bad game design. On DreamCast, check out soul reaver. The camera always focuses on what you need to see. If you want to see more, you can press both flippers and look around, but its rare you have to do this.

In metroid prime on GC, in morph mode where you are in 3rd person view, moving around, the camera is always in the right position to see whats going on. It's called good game design.

In the end, it doesnt matter the hardware. Every new generation has better graphics ability than the previous. Each platform will only have a dozen or so games worth playing.

As for the new nintendo, f*ck, i dont want to have to move my limbs around to play a video game. Remeber the movie Johnny Nemonic? Remember where he donned the "vr" equipment, and he had to move around his arms and hands to manipulate his online experience? There has been a lot of research here, it turns out that having to move around limbs isnt much fun, because it tires the hell out of you.

So now we will have games that require you to move around the room, prancing like a que#r, just to get your as$ kicked constantly in some level you cant beat, unless you are a professional gamer. Great.

But hey, at least i am quite sure the developers will be able to make use of them new fangled multiple proc systems.

Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: MskoDestny on November 01, 2005, 02:08:46 PM
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
On your article.  Did you read it?

Yes, but did you?

Quote
a PPC core it a PPC core, but Nintendo's will have a large cache (like the Gamecube did) and use branch predicting Out of Order executing cpu (as opposed to the 360's In-Order-Executing)

While the large cache is speculated in the article, it's quite clear that the Broadway chip in the Revolution will be using PPE core(s) which do not feature out of order execution. The extra cache will help mitigate some of the poor branch prediction, but it will only go so far. The PPE has a long pipeline and it takes a while for that to refill after a branch mispredict even when the appropriate code is in the cache.

Quote
Revolution looks to be very developer-friendly.

Well it looks like the Revolution will need the least threading to achieve the maximum performance of the console which makes it the least radical departure from existing consoles. Unfortunately it looks like it does this at the cost of being the least powerful of the three.

@Waccoon
The reason I mentioned casual and non-gamers in regards to the controller is that Nintendo has made a lot of noise about the high button count of modern controllers putting off this end of the market. Their stated justification for the remote control shape is to make it more approachable and recognizable to this crowd. However, by adding on all the dongles it seems to me they've just made things more complicated than they were before which kind of defeats the whole point.

I do think fewer buttons can be better. My point was that current FPS games have too many functions to stuff on the Revolution controller well and I don't think that will change soon since most FPS games start out on the PC (which of course has plenty of buttons).
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 01, 2005, 03:23:54 PM
@koaftder and Waccoon

I think you 2 are getting multi-threaded and multi-core confused.  They are not the same and does require special programming.  Having branch predicters reside outside of the cores allows the branch predicter to send a code segment to one core for execution automatically where as on the 360, this will not happen and is up to the developers in there own code to decide on the compiler level.  This goes back to In-Order-Executing vs. Out-Of-Order...

So on revolution, code will always take advantage of multiple cores...having a larger cache (and branch predicters) is also what makes this possible and why I (in another thread...possibly earlier in this one) said a 2.5Ghz G5-based Revolution cpu will initially outperform first the 3.2GHz 360 and PS3 cpus.

It's like comparing my 2.2GHz Athlon 3400+ to a Pentium 3.4GHz.  It's not just about MHz or GHz.  Sony and MS are in a #'s war.  It's mostly a marketing war.  Obviously, alot of people are buying into it.

AMD has had multi-core processors for years, no one had to worry about it because their branch-prediction took care of all that stuff.  This is why I call the Revolution cpu "traditional".  It's just like a desktop cpu.  A chip that you see on the outside is made up of cores, cache branch preditors and other stuff.  Read the article posted a few posts ago (which oddly seems to put Revolution's hardware design in quite a favorable light is you ask me).  IBM can make any kind of PPC cpu you like just by playing with the components that goes into the chip "package".  They can make a streaming media cpu, server cpu, or general-purpose workstation cpu out of the same PPE core.

Sony, MS and Nintendo have gone in different directions with their cpus.  It will be survival of the fittest.  May the best platform win.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 01, 2005, 05:12:00 PM
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12670

Interesting how game sharing will work just like the DS.  I'm assuming multiple Revolutions in the same Wi-Fi zone, not over the internet...
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: adolescent on November 01, 2005, 05:34:04 PM
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
About market size in Japan.  No one has bought an Xbox as the 360 is around the corner...but noone has ever really bought an XBOX in Japan.  Ever.  Didn't they break 100k units sold only this year?  And that's in 4 years of sales.


More "bullpoo" from you.  The Xbox has broken 100k units in Japan every year except 2004.  If you include the rest of Asia then the number is higher.    

In regards to the market, it is small.  Even Nintendo sells twice as many consoles and 2-3 times as many games in the US alone.  Europe has even become a larger market than Japan in the past few years.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: MskoDestny on November 01, 2005, 06:23:47 PM
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
I think you 2 are getting multi-threaded and multi-core confused.  They are not the same and does require special programming.

I think it is you that doesn't understand. They aren't the same. One is a software technique and the other is a class of hardware. However, they are related. Multi-core CPUs work essentially the same as standard multi-CPU systems. You need multi-threaded programs to take advantage of both cores.

Quote
Having branch predicters reside outside of the cores allows the branch predicter to send a code segment to one core for execution automatically where as on the 360, this will not happen and is up to the developers in there own code to decide on the compiler level.  This goes back to In-Order-Executing vs. Out-Of-Order...

You really don't understand how branch prediction works. It's part of the front end of the processor core, not external to it. Nintendo can't magically add better branch prediction to the PPE core. Also Out of order execution and branch prediction are two separate features of the front-end.

Also note that the PPEs in all 3 consoles have branch prediction, just not very sophisticated branch prediction. However, branch prediction is designed to keep the pipeline full not to feed to separate processor cores.

Quote
So on revolution, code will always take advantage of multiple cores...having a larger cache (and branch predicters) is also what makes this possible and why I (in another thread...possibly earlier in this one) said a 2.5Ghz G5-based Revolution cpu will initially outperform first the 3.2GHz 360 and PS3 cpus.

Except it won't be a G5. It will be PPE based which means it will have the same fundamental limitations as the 360 just with more cache to help mitigate the poor branch prediction. If Broadway runs at 3.2GHz then it would clearly do better on single-threaded code, but seeing as there should be multi-threaded games (like PGR3) out on the 360 well before the Revolution even hits the market I don't see this being a huge advantage.

Quote
AMD has had multi-core processors for years, no one had to worry about it because their branch-prediction took care of all that stuff.

They did not have multi-core processors until the X2s and dual core opterons. You're confusing having multiple execution units and multiple cores. Very different.

Quote
This is why I call the Revolution cpu "traditional".  It's just like a desktop cpu.

Except it's not just like a desktop CPU. It's PPE based like the Xenon.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 01, 2005, 07:40:29 PM
Quote

adolescent wrote:
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
About market size in Japan.  No one has bought an Xbox as the 360 is around the corner...but noone has ever really bought an XBOX in Japan.  Ever.  Didn't they break 100k units sold only this year?  And that's in 4 years of sales.


More "bullpoo" from you.  The Xbox has broken 100k units in Japan every year except 2004.  If you include the rest of Asia then the number is higher.    

In regards to the market, it is small.  Even Nintendo sells twice as many consoles and 2-3 times as many games in the US alone.  Europe has even become a larger market than Japan in the past few years.


I guess you can include 2005 in that <100k statement as well.

Yes, the US market is bigger than Japan...but it's still a strong #2.

Europe is 10 small markets that get their sales lumped into 1 total.  If a title sells 100,000 copies in the UK, same with Germany, it's considered a big hit.  And all the rest are much smaller.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 01, 2005, 10:58:04 PM
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/nintendo-revolution.htm

ah-toldyouso-chu

http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000320065895/
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: adolescent on November 02, 2005, 01:23:26 AM
Since you're now posting random links, I'll play too.

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/playstation-three.htm

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/xbox-three-sixty.htm

Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 02, 2005, 11:28:25 AM
wow for once you posted something meaningful instead of spitting out "prove it" blurge at me...
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Waccoon on November 02, 2005, 12:28:13 PM
Quote
Lou:  typical stuff you buy with any PC purchase. Your point?

Don't Amigas use keyboards and mice?  Doesn't every Amigan want ethernet?  Computers don't boot from air, so you need to spend more money on a boot device...

...plus other costs you don't include in your REEL CHEEP machine price projections.

Quote
Lou:  but I have spare PS/2 keyboard laying around from small "upgrades". If you want to pay $70 for a brand new wireless keyboard, that's you issue, not mine.

Can you use your PS/2 keyboard on a Gamecube?

Quote
Lou:  By the way, when was the last time anyone bought "new" Amiga hardware? Doesn't most of it around here come from ebay? And isn't it 12-20 years old too boot?

I suppose if you're still living in the 90's and are used to running AGA games all day, Gamecube begins to look like a miracle.

Quote
As for your Mac-mini, should I go quote the thread where you complain about how slow it is?

MacOS X is slow.  Are you going to go into another discussion blaming the Mac hardware for it's lack of performance when the software is actually at fault, as you do when you complain that XBox 360 games look "choppy?"

Quote
I never said the GC is the perfect OS4 platform, just a potential one to help grow the market.

Funny, when I brought up other "potential" solutions in that other thread of yours, you immediately shot all of them down saying they were off topic.  Ineffective, I can understand.  But, off topic?

Quote
koafter:  Damn, why post about the immaturity of multiproc programming?

Indeed.  Lou, don't you have a rebuttal for this, or your rediculous performance projections for XBox 360 and PS3 games?  Are you still telling everyone all the next gen non-Nintendo systems will have only twice the performance of the original XBox?

Quote
MskoDestny:  I do think fewer buttons can be better. My point was that current FPS games have too many functions to stuff on the Revolution controller well and I don't think that will change soon since most FPS games start out on the PC (which of course has plenty of buttons).

Well, most of the FPS I've seen can be driven almost entirely with the mouse, scrollwheel, and space bar.  It's the wargame FPS that need millions of buttons, like the flight simulators.  But, those kinds of really complex games aren't Nintendo's typical fare, and as far as I know, aren't all that mainstream.

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Lou:  So on revolution, code will always take advantage of multiple cores...having a larger cache (and branch predicters) is also what makes this possible and why I (in another thread...possibly earlier in this one) said a 2.5Ghz G5-based Revolution cpu will initially outperform first the 3.2GHz 360 and PS3 cpus.

OK, so once again you're suggesting that Revolution will outperform the competition becuase Sony and MS developers are crap?

Don't you think the dev tools and compilers they have account for this?  Do you think all these guys still write their software in assembly?

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Lou:  It's like comparing my 2.2GHz Athlon 3400+ to a Pentium 3.4GHz.

Yeah, but the performance of these processors isn't going to fluctuate, Lou.  Your beef is with the dev tools and the intelligence of the programmers, not the hardware.

Suggesting that Revolution will initially outperform PS3 and XBox 360, before Revolution's specs are final, is rediculous.  This kind of fanboy banter happens every time new consoles are released.

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AMD has had multi-core processors for years, no one had to worry about it because their branch-prediction took care of all that stuff.

Nobody had to worry because the OS takes care of all that stuff.  Don't these new consoles have operating systems and gobs of dev tools these days?  Oh, but you already know that Nintendo's tools are way better than PS3 and XBox 360 tools, right?

Also, branch prediction is a technique to guess what a particular thread is going to do next, so it applies to each core individually.  Games generally don't have as many branches as application software, either.

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Lou:  ah-toldyouso-chu

{Link)

Told us what?  Here's an excerpt from that article:

"So Nintendo took a different and far riskier path. First, it chose the codename "Revolution" for its new game console. Then the company set a big goal -- to dramatically improve the interface for video games. With this strategy, Nintendo built an amazing amount of hype around its innovative controller for the Revolution."

So, they're saying Nintendo can't compete at the hardware level and are making up for it by trying new interface directions.  How does this help your argument about the power and performance of the CPUs?

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Lou:  (Link:  http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000320065895/)

One of the comments below the article said this:

"But he actually didn't say that. He said that gamers will see not a big difference in terms od graffics in neather the trhee consoles."

This I can understand, as it is typically vague marketting talk.  Smart salesmen don't say things like, "there is no difference."

Come one, IBM is making both CPUs for XBox 360 and Revolution.  ATI is making both GPUs for XBox 360 and Revolution.  Surely these companies aren't charging Nintendo less money and making faster, cooler chips just "because."
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: MskoDestny on November 02, 2005, 01:49:28 PM
Quote

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/nintendo-revolution.htm

I can't say I have a lot of respect for that article when it claims the 360 has 6 processor cores when it only has 3.

Quote
ah-toldyouso-chu

http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000320065895/

So Nintendo has gone from saying "2-3 times more powerful than the Gamecube" to saying nothing to saying "there will be no difference" I'll believe them when they release some specs or some videos/screenshots that can compete with PGR3. At the moment his statement can be taken so many ways, it's not particularly useful. I wouldn't mind reading a decent English translation of the interview. Babelfish just wasn't cutting it for me.

Quote

Waccoon wrote:
Well, most of the FPS I've seen can be driven almost entirely with the mouse, scrollwheel, and space bar. It's the wargame FPS that need millions of buttons, like the flight simulators. But, those kinds of really complex games aren't Nintendo's typical fare, and as far as I know, aren't all that mainstream.

HL2: Fire, secondary fire, use, crouch, jump and weapon selection and I consider that to be the bare minimum. At that point you're stuck jamming use onto the D-pad as well as weapon selection. Less than ideal and this is assuming that you used an auto-reload mechanism (also less than ideal). A lot of games are also adding in dedicated grenade buttons (which are quite useful).

Now I'm sure any Nintendo FPS made for the console would be well suited to the controller, but Nintendo doesn't make many FPS games. If there are a substantial number of FPS games on the Revolution they will be coming from 3rd party developers and likely have problems mapping their buttons well to the controller.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 02, 2005, 02:03:56 PM
blah blah blah...

Quote
The brains of the console are rumored to be a single dual-threaded IBM "custom" PowerPC 2.5 GHz CPU, with 256 KB L1 cache and 1 MB of L2 cache (L3 cache is rumored). The system will also sport a Physical Processing Chip (PPU) with 32MB of dedicated RAM, while the CPU itself will saddled up next to 512MB of system RAM. The custom ATI GPU solution is rumored to consist of a RN520 600MHz core, backed with 256MB of RAM and "32 parallel floating-point dynamically scheduled shader pipelines." While the output will theoretically be capable of putting out 1080p resolution (higher even, at 2048x1268), Solo says that HD support has not yet been decided (which fits with Nintendo's own comments).

I'm not particularly inclined to deeply assess how such a configuration would stack up to the Xbox 360 or the PS3, but Solo wrote that he thinks it "would be on par with Xbox360, though PS3 could have an edge in the CPU area. In the GPU area the Revolution beats PS3, and technically would match Xbox 360."

Nintendo may have the right idea. As publishers demand more and more games go cross-platform, a single-core system that's easy on developers may be the best way to ensure plenty of cross-platform support, without burning too much money on console architecture that may only be used for exclusive games. While we expect to see exclusive titles for both the Xbox 360 and the PS3, most titles will be cross-platform, and will not necessarily take advantage of the multi-core optimizations for the Xbox 360, or Sony's Cell architecture. Keep in mind that Gabe Newell recently said that the Xbox's CPU performs like a 1.7GHz P3 on unoptimized code.


In the end you will believe what you want and twist what I say as well as pick and choose bits from articles to suit your agenda and ignore the overall point.  The facts are adding up in Revolution's favor.

Revolution will require less optimization on the final coding level in order to perform at peak efficiency.

According to these specs, Revolution will have 512MB for its cpu, 256MB for its gpu and 32MB for it's PPU.

People tout the PS3's SPU's for physics (and sound as there is no dedicated sound chip).  It's process is in charge of managing those SPU's in addition to running PPC code.

With separate processors with their own dedicated RAM and larger cpu cache to keep the cpu fed with instructions instead of playing the waiting game that will happen on the 360...

Revolution looks like it will more than keep up - dare I say "outperform both in real world conditions".

Why are these spec believable?  Because this late in the game, hardware specs are getting finalized and developers have to know what they have to play with.

So on the surface, you can look at your 3.2 GHz triple core cpu and your 3.2Ghz single core + 7 spu cores cpu and say it outperforms a 2.5GHz single core cpu.  And you would be correct.  So go out and buy a 360 or PS3 and be happy.  It's a free planet.

@Waccoon
You are going off topic.  If you want to talk about a Gamecube as an OS4 platform, go to my thread or the Hyperion news post.  But the quick answer is Amigans with money to burn have already bought an A1...and there numbers are few...the rest of them running REAL Amiga hardware that is 12-20 years old would be quite content with a GC powered system.  Otherwise they already own a PC (or MAC) and only come here in spirit.  I've already outlined the costs in that thread as under $200 complete.  Yes I can use a PS/2 keyboard on a gamecube with an $8 adapter.  Again this has been discussed already in my thread and was included in the costs.  Go back underneath the bridge.

Quote
Now I'm sure any Nintendo FPS made for the console would be well suited to the controller, but Nintendo doesn't make many FPS games. If there are a substantial number of FPS games on the Revolution they will be coming from 3rd party developers and likely have problems mapping their buttons well to the controller.


So Metroid Prime 1, 2 and 3(coming on Revolution) aren't FPS games, nor is Geist.  Interesting...even more interesting is how the controller with "nun chuck" addon was demoed on a Metroid Prime 2 level running on the Gamecube rewritten to take advantage of interface...
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: MskoDestny on November 02, 2005, 04:29:49 PM
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
Quote
Now I'm sure any Nintendo FPS made for the console would be well suited to the controller, but Nintendo doesn't make many FPS games. If there are a substantial number of FPS games on the Revolution they will be coming from 3rd party developers and likely have problems mapping their buttons well to the controller.


So Metroid Prime 1, 2 and 3(coming on Revolution) aren't FPS games, nor is Geist.  Interesting...even more interesting is how the controller with "nun chuck" addon was demoed on a Metroid Prime 2 level running on the Gamecube rewritten to take advantage of interface...

Notice how I said Nintendo doesn't make MANY FPS games not that they don't make FPS games at all. 3 FPS does not constitute many in my book. Now any given 3rd party developer may not have developed more than that, but Nintendo is but one company and there are a whole slew of 3rd party developers writing FPS games, most of which could benefit from having more than 4-buttons.

As for your supposed specs, they're just rumors. Until Nintendo comes out with specs officially I won't give them any more weight than rumors about the other consoles before their specs were announced. 512MB of main RAM doesn't make a lot of sense unless they're using a unified RAM architecture (like in the 360) in which case the GPU wouldn't have another 256MB of it's own.

If you're specs are true, it would mean the Revolution is going to be sputtering along with a 2.5GHz single-core PPE based CPU. An extra 1MB of cache isn't going to make up for having 1/3 of the processing hardware running 700MHz slower. The PPU would help out on physics intensive games, but I have a hard time believing there are many games with a massive enough physics engine to make up the difference between the two.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 02, 2005, 06:11:48 PM
Well, that's why in real world tests we will see what performs best.

These specs come from developers...and I've seen similar specs in a printed magazine.

Like I said before.  The hardware is finalized and now it's time to show developers.

They are building a low cost machine as they've always said.

MoSys memory is both cheap and fast so I don't doubt the memory.  It's one of the things that people say "wft is T1-MoSys memory" and it made the GC so fast AND cheap.

I still say the cpu is a G5 with typical Nintendo enhancement requirements.  You can call it what you want, to me a PPC core is a PPC core.  Again, going with an existing design with minor tweaks keeps the costs down.

I don't see them coming out with a slower GPU than the Xbox because it's coming out almost 9 moths later.

PS3 has SPU's for physics, 360 has more PPC cores for that, Why can't Nintendo just throw in a basic physics chip and some dedicated ram (32MB)?

To me, it all seems possible.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: MskoDestny on November 02, 2005, 07:27:39 PM
Quote
These specs come from developers...and I've seen similar specs in a printed magazine.

Well purported developers anyway. The fact that they've been printed in a magazine doesn't necessarily make them true.

Quote
Like I said before.  The hardware is finalized and now it's time to show developers.

Is it? That Spanish interview made it sound like they still hadn't quite finalized the hardware, but maybe they were referring to the fact that the developers don't have the final hardware yet. It was a pretty bad translation, so it's hard to tell.

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MoSys memory is both cheap and fast so I don't doubt the memory.  It's one of the things that people say "wft is T1-MoSys memory" and it made the GC so fast AND cheap.

Well I don't have pricing info on MoSys 1T-SRAM so I can't comment on whether it's truly inexpensive. My 512MB comment was more to the effect that it didn't make sense for their to be 512MB of main program RAM if there was an additional 256MB of VRAM. Consoles don't typically need a huge amount of main RAM since a huge portion of the data is graphics data. To me it seems they would have been better off with 256MB (or using a unified 512MB) and taking the money they saved to improve some other aspect of the system.

Quote
I still say the cpu is a G5 with typical Nintendo enhancement requirements.  You can call it what you want, to me a PPC core is a PPC core.  Again, going with an existing design with minor tweaks keeps the costs down.

Well a PPC core is a PPC core in the sense of what instructions it will run (with the exception of extensions like VMX that aren't present on all PPC chips), but it doesn't say much about performance. A PPC 601 at 2.5GHz (if such a thing existed) would still run like a dog compared to a G5 or PPE. The G5 and PPE will have rather different performance characteristics and the task will largely determine which is faster; however, comparing a PPE to a PPE is relatively straightforward.

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I don't see them coming out with a slower GPU than the Xbox because it's coming out almost 9 moths later.

Having an equally fast GPU won't do it much good if the CPU can't keep it fed. Just looking at the early XBox 360 offerings, the difference in graphical quality between older single-threaded games (thus running on a single PPE) and games designed with the 360 in mind (like PGR3) is quite clear. Short of having the GPU do more work than it typically does, having a better GPU won't do much coupled to a weak CPU.

Quote
PS3 has SPU's for physics, 360 has more PPC cores for that, Why can't Nintendo just throw in a basic physics chip and some dedicated ram (32MB)?

Well I have no idea how much these things cost so again it's hard for me to comment.

You should notice that I've stopped saying I didn't believe the specs because of cost. A single-core 2.5GHz PPE based CPU with somewhere in the neighborhood of 2MB of cache coupled with the rest of the specs above doesn't sound too unreasonable. I don't think the 512MB of RAM is terribly realistic, but that's mostly for reasons of system balance (something Nintendo did very well with the Gamecube) rather than cost. Other than that, I don't put much faith in them because I don't put much faith in console rumors in general.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 02, 2005, 07:38:53 PM
Quote
Having an equally fast GPU won't do it much good if the CPU can't keep it fed. Just looking at the early XBox 360 offerings, the difference in graphical quality between older single-threaded games (thus running on a single PPE) and games designed with the 360 in mind (like PGR3) is quite clear. Short of having the GPU do more work than it typically does, having a better GPU won't do much coupled to a weak CPU


Actually, I imagine the memory controller will be built into the gpu just like it is on the Flipper.  So it's the gpu's job to keep the cpu fed.  Having the extra cache also makes that easier.  So the bottleneck is not cpu.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: MskoDestny on November 02, 2005, 07:57:26 PM
The CPU never copies raw data to VRAM in a modern system. It's either done using DMA or in the case of the 360 there's no copying to be done since it has a unified memory architecture.

Keeping the GPU fed is about telling it what to do (what transforms, which triangle lists to draw and where, etc.). On the 360 it seems that one core is not enough to handle game logic and keeping the GPU fed. If the Revolution uses a single core PPE based processor at 2.5GHz it would seem that the CPU would not be fast enough to take advantage of the GPU if the GPU is as fast or faster than the one in the 360.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 02, 2005, 08:38:56 PM
Well the Gekko in the GC was single core and single threaded.  The ATI Flipper has a memory controller built into it's packaging.  So was a DSP.  As we can see, it was a very efficient system.

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-503797.html

I expect ATI's Revolution gpu to offer equivalent features.

...

Projected hardware manufacturing costs for 360 & PS3:
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1497&Itemid=2
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: adolescent on November 02, 2005, 09:04:35 PM
 
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
wow for once you posted something meaningful instead of spitting out "prove it" blurge at me...


I've just grown tired of correcting your errant fan-boy "facts".  And, since you've never actually proved anything I've stopped asking.  

Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 02, 2005, 10:25:41 PM
Yes.
Deny, deny, deny is always the best defense when you have nothing meaningful to say.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: coldfish on November 03, 2005, 02:44:49 AM
by Waccoon on 2005/11/1 19:00:09:
I got my Mac mini on eBay for $335, and it's a full computer with 256MB or RAM and a real PPC

Hey Waccoon, I have a Mac-Mini too.  Bump that RAM upto 512MB and you'll notice a sizable performance boost.

Apple have started selling them with 512MB standard.

All the best!



Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 03, 2005, 03:45:05 AM
Yes he can buy a Mac-Mini on ebay and that's OK but buying a Gamecube on eBay for 1/10 that price isn't.  I wonder if it's hit him yet that Apple is going Intel next year?

Oh my, and installing OS 4 on that would also void his warranty.

Oh and when my 'Cube didn't turn on when I didn't solder my mod chip's power cable correctly.  I soldered it to a more convenient location and  - shock! horror! - it worked fine.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: coldfish on November 03, 2005, 07:01:18 AM
For one thing Apple arent going wholey and soley Intel, just some segments of their product line.  Support will exist for present lines for quite sometime yet, and cross compatability has always been the long-term objective.

With the 'mini, why bother with OS4 when you have OSX?  

I understand the fun aspect of using the 'cube as a hobby box, and hats-off for being inquisitive and exploring, but it really isn't the solution to next-gen Amiga computing.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Waccoon on November 03, 2005, 11:18:35 AM
Quote
MskoDestny:  I can't say I have a lot of respect for that article when it claims the 360 has 6 processor cores when it only has 3.

I've heard worse.  Now is hardly the time to post lots of specs on the next-gen consoles.

Quote
Lou:  People tout the PS3's SPU's for physics (and sound as there is no dedicated sound chip). It's process is in charge of managing those SPU's in addition to running PPC code.

Which is largely handled by the OS and dev tools.

Interesting how you suggested that Revolution could have a physics processor with 32MB of RAM, unaware that this would give you the same programming challenges as the PS3.  Of course, Nintendo is smart enough to handle these challenges, and Sony and Microsoft are not.

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Lou:  You are going off topic. If you want to talk about a Gamecube as an OS4 platform, go to my thread or the Hyperion news post.

Oh, this is hillarious.  Remember when, in the middle of your PPC Amiga Real Cheap thread, you started arguing about whether the Game Boy Player was an emulator or not?  Yeah, let's diversify the thread even more by bringing other Nintendo products into play (based on ARM processors, no less).

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Lou:  These specs come from developers...and I've seen similar specs in a printed magazine.

Which one?  What were their sources?

Quote
Lou:  I don't see them coming out with a slower GPU than the Xbox because it's coming out almost 9 moths later.

Even though the price points are different?

Didn't Nintendo already conceed that Revolution will be less powerful than XBox 360?

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Lou:  Deny, deny, deny is always the best defense when you have nothing meaningful to say.

Or in your case, ignore, ignore, ignore.  You seem to be giving fewer and fewer rebuttals when people point out problems in your technical explanations, such as with the branch prediction issue.  Oh, you'd like to forget that altogether and start up a new argument about how memory is handled in Revolution, which is more difficult to prove, in either direction, at this point in time.

Quote
Lou:  Yes he can buy a Mac-Mini on ebay and that's OK but buying a Gamecube on eBay for 1/10 that price isn't.

If Gamecube is to be used as an officialy licensed platform for OS4, as you pointed out in that other thread, you wouldn't be able to make a system yourself from eBay parts.  Also, if you remember, some of the prices you listed were for the cost a used hardware, such as your build price that included a $60 Gamecube.

Quote
Lou:  Oh and when my 'Cube didn't turn on when I didn't solder my mod chip's power cable correctly. I soldered it to a more convenient location and - shock! horror! - it worked fine.

You're lucky.  Amigans have been working with frankenstein solutions for so long, I'd think they would be looking for a platform where modding isn't required.

I found it amusing when you said you would return the Gamecube to Wal-Mart to get a replacement if you couldn't get it working again.  So much for worrying about the warranty.  :-)

But, hey, if you break your Gamecube, it's cheap to replace, isn't it?

Quote
coldfish:  With the 'mini, why bother with OS4 when you have OSX?

Curiosity.  OS X has been a mixed bag so far.  I won't get into any more detail, lest Lou yells at me for getting off topic.

Quote
coldfish:  I understand the fun aspect of using the 'cube as a hobby box, and hats-off for being inquisitive and exploring, but it really isn't the solution to next-gen Amiga computing.

My biggest problem with Lou in that "other" thread, is that he was touting the machine as a next-gen system to run OS4.  As the bad comments began to roll in, he changed his argument to suggest that it would be an improvement over the classic line of Amigas, and could run AROS, which already runs on very cheap and diverse PC hardware.  However, he still compares the price of a modded Gamecube you have to build yourself to a brand new AmigaOne.  Obviously, not a very fair technical or functional comparrison by any means.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 03, 2005, 12:48:07 PM
Quote
Quote
Lou:  People tout the PS3's SPU's for physics (and sound as there is no dedicated sound chip). It's process is in charge of managing those SPU's in addition to running PPC code.

Which is largely handled by the OS and dev tools.


These are consoles.  There is no OS and 1st gen dev tools are usually incomplete or not yet optimized.

Quote
Interesting how you suggested that Revolution could have a physics processor with 32MB of RAM, unaware that this would give you the same programming challenges as the PS3.  Of course, Nintendo is smart enough to handle these challenges, and Sony and Microsoft are not.


If you read what the PPC core in the cell is doing, it is managing what instruction get sent to what cores.  That is one task Revolution's cpu won't have to worry about.  Hitting a dedicated chip with it's own memory bank to execute from requires no resources once the memory has been moved to that bank.  It's not about programming challenges but about cpu time.

Quote
Quote
Lou:  You are going off topic. If you want to talk about a Gamecube as an OS4 platform, go to my thread or the Hyperion news post.

Oh, this is hillarious.  Remember when, in the middle of your PPC Amiga Real Cheap thread, you started arguing about whether the Game Boy Player was an emulator or not?  Yeah, let's diversify the thread even more by bringing other Nintendo products into play (based on ARM processors, no less).


yes, take things off topic of this thread.
that started with a discussion about creating an IDE interface that used the high speed parralel port just like the GBA player did

Quote
Quote
Lou:  These specs come from developers...and I've seen similar specs in a printed magazine.

Which one?  What were their sources?


Electronic Gaming Monthly in print coming from "off-the-record" developers like the arstechnia article did

Quote
Quote
Lou:  I don't see them coming out with a slower GPU than the Xbox because it's coming out almost 9 moths later.

Even though the price points are different?


You think the price difference is going to come from one individual component?

Quote
Didn't Nintendo already conceed that Revolution will be less powerful than XBox 360?


Yes and as I said before, on paper a 3-core or single with 7 spu cored cpu @ 3.2GHz will outperform a 2.5 GHz cpu.  So buy one of those and be happy.

Quote
Quote
Lou:  Deny, deny, deny is always the best defense when you have nothing meaningful to say.

Or in your case, ignore, ignore, ignore.  You seem to be giving fewer and fewer rebuttals when people point out problems in your technical explanations, such as with the branch prediction issue.  Oh, you'd like to forget that altogether and start up a new argument about how memory is handled in Revolution, which is more difficult to prove, in either direction, at this point in time.


When there is more information to be said it will be.  But you coming here and personally attacking every statement I make is what makes you exactly what I say you are.

Quote
Quote
Lou:  Yes he can buy a Mac-Mini on ebay and that's OK but buying a Gamecube on eBay for 1/10 that price isn't.

If Gamecube is to be used as an officialy licensed platform for OS4, as you pointed out in that other thread, you wouldn't be able to make a system yourself from eBay parts.  Also, if you remember, some of the prices you listed were for the cost a used hardware, such as your build price that included a $60 Gamecube.


The $60 price is from Electronics Boutique/Game Stop.  you can get them on Ebay for much less.  Yes and that makes it as useless as your $335 mac mini, right?  You bash me for quoting prices on ebay, then tout how you buy a computer on ebay.  A bit hypocritical if you ask me.

Quote
Quote
Lou:  Oh and when my 'Cube didn't turn on when I didn't solder my mod chip's power cable correctly. I soldered it to a more convenient location and - shock! horror! - it worked fine.

You're lucky.  Amigans have been working with frankenstein solutions for so long, I'd think they would be looking for a platform where modding isn't required.

I found it amusing when you said you would return the Gamecube to Wal-Mart to get a replacement if you couldn't get it working again.  So much for worrying about the warranty.  :-)

But, hey, if you break your Gamecube, it's cheap to replace, isn't it?


Yes it is.   I'm not looking to make Nintendo a profit.  I'm just looking to use it for my own purposes.  You have a problem with that...oh well.

Quote
Quote
coldfish:  With the 'mini, why bother with OS4 when you have OSX?

Curiosity.  OS X has been a mixed bag so far.  I won't get into any more detail, lest Lou yells at me for getting off topic.


Curiosity?  Could that be the same reason I'd like to see an Amiga OS on Gamecube?

Oh and when you mentioned other potenital platforms in my thread, I called them off-topic because they either weren't PPC or weren't cheap.  Just to set the record straight.

Quote
Quote
coldfish:  I understand the fun aspect of using the 'cube as a hobby box, and hats-off for being inquisitive and exploring, but it really isn't the solution to next-gen Amiga computing.

My biggest problem with Lou in that "other" thread, is that he was touting the machine as a next-gen system to run OS4.  As the bad comments began to roll in, he changed his argument to suggest that it would be an improvement over the classic line of Amigas, and could run AROS, which already runs on very cheap and diverse PC hardware.  However, he still compares the price of a modded Gamecube you have to build yourself to a brand new AmigaOne.  Obviously, not a very fair technical or functional comparrison by any means.


Your real problem is that your sole existance for posting on this site is to attack even the most obscure points of any statement I make.  You really need to leave the sticks of Bellingham more often.

In my thread, I always said I would prefer a licensed product.  A licensed product that could include an inexpensive addon (though if Eyetech make it, it would cost as much as an A1) similar to the Gameboy Player that gave you the intefaces the GC naturally lacks such as USB or IDE.

I love how you take individual comments and regurgitate them out of context (and out of topic for this thread) to paint your skewed picture of me here.  You put words in my mouth saying I have a problem with 360 or PS3 developers.  I said no such thing.  Articles I and others have posted clearly state that optimizing 3rd party software that will be released on all machines will not happen.  Only exclusive titles will have optimization at first.

Now people can see why right away in this thread I called you an I.A.C. - I already knew what you were trying to do.  You want to critisize my AOS on GC idea, do it on my thread.  The topic here is PS3 - XBox 360 - Revolution.  By the way, as these are PPC platforms they are "on-topic" in my thread.  However, I don't consider the 360 and PS3 as absolutely affordable for the sake of installing a hobbyist OS...word's still out on Revolution.

And that's what you don't understand.  If people want to shell out $500-$1000, they want to get their money's worth.  No one is going to do that for something unproved like OS4.  $200 - maybe, $500 - not worth it.  So as getting the GC to be a computer is a hobby and can be done inexpensively, that is the main point of my thread.  This is further made a possibility by Hyperion's own statements on the new website.

When I first started that thread, it was just an idea.

JUST AN IDEA

Then the idea was attacked right away by trolls such as you.  I did some research and over time came up with possibilities and solutions to counteract most of the criticisms.  In the end, I believe I have succeeded.

I went out bought some good CHEAP parts:
$12 ps/2 keyboard adapter for Gamecube (new from ebay)
$50 mod chip (qoob Pro, new from www.modchipworld.com )
$23 broad band adapter (used on ebay)

and installed Linux on my Gamecube.  Nobody paid me to do it.  I am not trying to make money from it.  I did it just to say "if this can work why not some form of AOS?"

I also went out and bought a Super Smash Bothers bundled Gamecube.  Why?  Because I wanted Super Smash Bros Melee and knew that my Rev A Gamecube was worth more than the one included in the bundle.  If I messed up that, I could always return it.  You can knock me for that, whatever, it's just plain smart shopping.  So take out the cost of a game I wanted to buy anyway (as it's the #1 selling game on the Gamecube - period) and a new Gamecube cost me $79.

$164 total for a "hobby" is something I didn't mind doing.  If I had to spend much more than that - would it have been worth it?  If I had bought an A1, I'd have a $1000 PPC Linux system.  I'd much rather have a $164 PPC Linux system.

By the way, in my thread, I asked if you were a descent solderer and asked to you come by and install my mod chip for me.  You declined.  Now, are you going to say I have no proof that Linux is able to run on one of my Gamecubes because you've never seen it?  You can take the 40 minute drive from Bellingham to Fall River and I will boot into Linux for you in the 5 seconds that it takes from the time I turn on my Gamecube.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 04, 2005, 11:11:57 PM
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001393147

Interesting comments from Sony CEO.
Looks like they want to control your livingroom more than MS does. Also PS3 won't see US shelves for a year...but March in Japan.

Reggie talks Nintendo's future: http://cube.ign.com/articles/664/664495p1.html
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 11, 2005, 12:16:36 AM
http://theconsolewars.blogspot.com/2005/11/can-xbox-360-pull-180-in-japan.html

360 poised to do better in Japan

Interesting sales figures for original XBOX in Japan that contradict unfounded claims by a certain poster on this in this thread who always dares me to provide proof but never feels the need to himself.

interesting read:
http://www.nintendorevolution.ca/11072005/09/montreal_and_the_revolution

source of the leaked specs of Revolution:
http://theconsolewars.blogspot.com/2005/09/han-solo-smuggles-revolution.html

Revolution will have Resident Evil 5
http://theconsolewars.blogspot.com/2005/09/revolution-will-have-resident-evil-5.html
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: koaftder on November 11, 2005, 04:16:59 AM
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
http://theconsolewars.blogspot.com/2005/11/can-xbox-360-pull-180-in-japan.html

360 poised to do better in Japan

Interesting sales figures for original XBOX in Japan that contradict unfounded claims by a certain poster on this in this thread who always dares me to provide proof but never feels the need to himself.

interesting read:
http://www.nintendorevolution.ca/11072005/09/montreal_and_the_revolution

source of the leaked specs of Revolution:
http://theconsolewars.blogspot.com/2005/09/han-solo-smuggles-revolution.html

Revolution will have Resident Evil 5
http://theconsolewars.blogspot.com/2005/09/revolution-will-have-resident-evil-5.html


Dude, you seriously need to put down the controller.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: adolescent on November 11, 2005, 04:57:09 AM
For those that don't want to wait for a game that hasn't been announced, on a system that doesn't have finalized specs, here are some preliminary pics of Resident Evil 5 on the Xbox 360.  Of course, no release dates so far for this or the PS3.

(http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1275/1126760628.jpg)

(http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1275/1126760627.jpg)
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 11, 2005, 04:58:35 PM
@koaftder

Well, when I get called a liar like this:

Quote

adolescent wrote:
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
About market size in Japan.  No one has bought an Xbox as the 360 is around the corner...but noone has ever really bought an XBOX in Japan.  Ever.  Didn't they break 100k units sold only this year?  And that's in 4 years of sales.


More "bullpoo" from you.  The Xbox has broken 100k units in Japan every year except 2004.  If you include the rest of Asia then the number is higher.


Then find this: http://theconsolewars.blogspot.com/2005/11/can-xbox-360-pull-180-in-japan.html
Quote
Just a controller's throw from the pricey, upscale shops of Harajuku, the Lounge is part of Microsoft's effort to drive sales of the upcoming Xbox 360 in Japan, a market where its predecessor was humiliated. In 2002, Microsoft's Xbox (released in late February) sold 327,699 units in Japan. That same year, Sony's PS2 moved a whopping 3.7 million units. In terms of software market share, Xbox tallied a measly 0.5 percent, compared to 55.2 percent for PS2 and 12.4 percent for Gamecube. Even Sega's flagging Dreamcast outpaced Xbox, earning 0.8 percent of the software market. And things only went downhill from there. In 2003, Xbox sold about 97,000 units – only marginally better than the ancient PSOne (61,000) and JVC's WonderSwan Crystal (47,000). In 2004, that number dropped to about 40,000 – or, just 10,000 more than Nintendo's non-SP Game Boy Advance. Over this three-year period, Microsoft sold roughly 464,000 units in Japan, compared to 9.2 million for PS2 and 2.59 million for GameCube. It's no wonder that not a single Xbox game has ever managed to crack the Japanese yearly top 50.


I asked a question based on what I thought and got answered with an outright lie.  Meanwhile, I'm the only one that needs to justify what I say...go figure...

other than that, my post was quite on topic, so what is your issue with me posting now?
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: adolescent on November 11, 2005, 05:27:52 PM
@lou

I stand corrected.  The source that I had, Famitsu magazine, showed the Xbox at slightly over 100k for 2003.  
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 11, 2005, 05:30:07 PM
and I'll concede that Xbox AVERAGED over 100k sales over the course of 4 years.

ps,
I hope the same added anti-aliasing effects happening on the HALO 1 + 2 so-called "emulation" happen with Gamecube emulation on Revolution...Resident Evil 4 is butt ugly (pixellated) in progressive scan mode on the GC...Metroid Prime 1+2 easily have the best graphics on that machine...
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 12, 2005, 05:04:29 AM
Official XBOX recomp...oops "backwards compatability" list:

Quote
Note: A software emulator is required for each original Xbox game you play on your Xbox 360™ console. Please check back for more details as we approach the launch date.


http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/backwardcompatibilitygameslist.htm

Bigger than I thought...but then again didn't Hyperion write a modest x86 emulator for inclusion in the A1 BIOS in like 800k?

Gee, if they were really emulating the hardware, would a separate "emulator" be needed for each individual game?

One company has gone on record to handing MS their source code.

Also Mark Rein of Epic Games "clarifies" his statements about Revolution's controller etc...
http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=61668
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: MskoDestny on November 12, 2005, 05:20:41 AM
From a CNN/Money article:
Quote
One thing's for sure: The Revolution will not support high definition video, a marked divergence from the path Microsoft (Research) and Sony (Research) are taking. And it's not something the company is re-thinking, despite the fervent hopes of some hardcore gaming fans.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/10/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm

As for the 360 and emulation, it's unlikely it's purely a hardware emulator. Assuming the underlying OS is still compatible with the version from the original XBox (which is likely) they'd really only have to emulate the CPU. I believe even the "direct" access to the graphics hardware was handled through a library. HLE is much more efficient than emulating every last bit of the hardware.

I kind of doubt they need a separate emulator for each game. I find it more likely that they have a base emulator core and then config files for individual games to get optimal performance out of them. Many emulators for modern systems have similar behavior needing either special config files for certain games, or certain games needing certain emulation plug-ins to work properly.

Quote
One company has gone on record to handing MS their source code.

That doesn't necessarily mean anything. It's much easier to figure out why a particular piece of software is misbehaving in an emulator if you have the source code.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 12, 2005, 05:53:45 PM
Quote

MskoDestny wrote:
From a CNN/Money article:
Quote
One thing's for sure: The Revolution will not support high definition video, a marked divergence from the path Microsoft (Research) and Sony (Research) are taking. And it's not something the company is re-thinking, despite the fervent hopes of some hardcore gaming fans.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/10/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm
[/quote]

that sucks stinky arse but 720x480p widescreen fully ant-aliased will look fine for 95% of the games.  The GC can do this resolution now and 480p is not considered HD.  I think their goal is to give you "Toy Story" quality graphics on your standard TV.  Where as on the other 2 in 720p, you'll still see polygons to some extent.

Quote
Quote
One company has gone on record to handing MS their source code.

That doesn't necessarily mean anything. It's much easier to figure out why a particular piece of software is misbehaving in an emulator if you have the source code.


Right but the gist of the article is that MS is responsible for backwards compatability not the original developers.  All XBOX development was done in an XBOX specific Visual Studio so as long as MS can get the source code, they can recompile for the 360 as a downloadable program and just use the original disc for getting the audio and video data.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 14, 2005, 03:26:43 PM
Quote
Another snag with the backwards compatibility system being employed between Xbox and Xbox 360 is that there's no way to transfer save data or downloaded content from one console to the other - and users will have to pay for premium content they already own on their Xbox a second time if they want to use it on Xbox 360.


That sucks for people who invested in that...what about game patches?

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12954
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: c64_d0c on November 14, 2005, 04:26:37 PM
when pirates & hackers get their hands on the xbox360, we will see something like the whdload for the amiga on the xbox360. then all older xbox games will work. getting patches and other stuff shouldnt be to hard either when the xbox360  is modified..


anyway another thing that ps3 fanboys should worry about is the copyprotection on ps3 games..

Quote

Sony will make a patent that ensure no game would be playable from any other ps3 console, other than the one in which it was first read on.
 

so if your brand new ps3 blueray dvd get broken and you get a new one. all of your 10-40 games will not work anymore, no more loaning/swapping games with your friends or selling used games on ebay..

read more HERE (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=27568)...


i guess this is a big blow under the belt for the ps3 fanboys.. and it sure makes the xbox360 an more attractive choice..
________
Extreme q (http://extremevaporizer.info)
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 14, 2005, 05:25:21 PM
While Sony has that patent, I don't think they will use it.  Otherwise the rental industry would crash.  Also, wouldn't the disc have to be re-writeable for that to happen?  That would cost way too much.

on the 360:
Also, I don't think people are gonna hack the 360 to play original XBOX games that are on their HD, unless they hack it to bypass copy protection and run a back-up of an original xbox game.  Also the article mentions something that leaves open a major security vunerability...people can burn upgrades to disc and execute that code?  That's insane but will make the 360 the "hacker's" choice with a quickness.

Gotta love Microsoft's security...
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: c64_d0c on November 14, 2005, 07:42:04 PM
@lou_dias...

Quote

While Sony has that patent, I don't think they will use it. Otherwise the rental industry would crash. Also, wouldn't the disc have to be re-writeable for that to happen? That would cost way too much.


sorry to wake you up and burst your dream bobble, but the rental industry as you know it, was back in the n64 and ps1 time. sony dont make money on rentals and they sure dont care about the rental industry they dont benefit from. how they will get this patent to work i dont know but companies today pay anything to get their stuff protected. i am sure sony will have this protection, and making the games only work on the ps3 they are first read on. money aint the problem for sony, getting games copyed and lose money/control over them, that is a problem for sony. everyone knows that consol makers earn their money from games, not their consoles..


Quote

Also, I don't think people are gonna hack the 360 to play original XBOX games that are on their HD, unless they hack it to bypass copy protection and run a back-up of an original xbox game. Also the article mentions something that leaves open a major security vunerability...people can burn upgrades to disc and execute that code? That's insane but will make the 360 the "hacker's" choice with a quickness.


first of all you will not need to hack the hw to run older xbox games on the xbox360 it is all done in software. i see you mention major security vunerability, but you seems to forget this is a consol and not pc with winxp, there is a big diffrent. now that said i am wondering if you know the diffrent between a hacker and a cracker?... if not you better look it up. becouse the fud you are trying to spread you can keep for you self, you have no credibility whats so ever...

i sure hope the xbox360 will be the "hacker's" choice with a quickness. becouse that was the reason in the first place , why xbox become as popular it is today..




________
Motorcycle tires (http://www.motorcycle-tech.com/tires/motorcycle-tires)
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: realstar on November 14, 2005, 08:36:51 PM
It's Nintendo Revolution for me. It's the only console
that is offering a new kind of gaming and not just updated
hardware. (although it will offer that too) Nintendo games
are just too creative and entertaining to pass up and the
Revolution looks to be as exciting in a home console as
the Nintendo DS is for portable gaming. I am sure
that all of these systems will have something to offer
but I am much more piqued by the focus Nintendo is
taking. For now I am happy with my GameCube and PS2 until
Revolution is released. :)
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 14, 2005, 10:49:32 PM
Quote

c64_d0c wrote:

sorry to wake you up and burst your dream bobble, but the rental industry as you know it, was back in the n64 and ps1 time. sony dont make money on rentals and they sure dont care about the rental industry they dont benefit from. how they will get this patent to work i dont know but companies today pay anything to get their stuff protected. i am sure sony will have this protection, and making the games only work on the ps3 they are first read on. money aint the problem for sony, getting games copyed and lose money/control over them, that is a problem for sony. everyone knows that consol makers earn their money from games, not their consoles..


You are not bursting my bubble.  I don't care about how big the rental industry is.  The rental industry is indirectly responsible for sales.  Someone rents a game, they may decide to buy it.  Also, rental companies buy several copies on average of each game per store.  I wonder how or if that affects sales figures for software sales.

And as far as money comes from games not consoles.  You are wrong and you can read through the middle of this thread to figure out why.  The cost of including a recordable Blue-Ray drive would be astronomical for Sony.  They are only going to lose about $100 on the PS3.  If they included a recording BRD, they would lose several hundred dollars per PS3 sold -  and that's just plain stupid.  They'd be lucky to have the console break even 5 years from now.  So if they lose $200 per console and if they sell 100 million consoles like the PS2 did, they'd lose 20 billion dollars.  Good luck making that up in software sales.


Quote
first of all you will not need to hack the hw to run older xbox games on the xbox360 it is all done in software. i see you mention major security vunerability, but you seems to forget this is a consol and not pc with winxp, there is a big diffrent. now that said i am wondering if you know the diffrent between a hacker and a cracker?... if not you better look it up. becouse the fud you are trying to spread you can keep for you self, you have no credibility whats so ever...

i sure hope the xbox360 will be the "hacker's" choice with a quickness. becouse that was the reason in the first place , why xbox become as popular it is today..



this is the vunerability I was talking about:
Quote
Those without the Xbox Live service can download the software from Xbox.com and burn it onto a CD for loading onto the Xbox 360, or can request that it is delivered to their house for a shipping and handling fee.


If you can burn a cd and have the 360 execute code then the system is already open to hackers and crackers and I don't even care which one you are.  You can hack and crack the 360 all you want, it's no skin off my ass.

So chill out.  I have no credibility huh?  Well you are sounding like quite the rocket scientist.

UBISOFT announce FPS for Revolution in development (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.meristation.com%2Fv3%2Fdes_noticia.php%3Fid%3Dcw437615e74a4a7%26pic%3DGEN&langpair=es%7Cen&hl=en&safe=off&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools)
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: MskoDestny on November 15, 2005, 12:32:05 AM
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
If you can burn a cd and have the 360 execute code then the system is already open to hackers and crackers and I don't even care which one you are.  You can hack and crack the 360 all you want, it's no skin off my ass.

1) You still have no proof that they're actually recompiling the games. Since this would be incredibly inefficient labor-wise, I find it unlikely that's what they're actually doing.
2) Even if they are actual executables, what makes you think the executables won't be signed with some ridiculously long key that would take who knows how many thousands of years to crack with current computing technology. If that's the case, this feature is no more exploitable than the console's ability to play video files provided by the user.

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And as far as money comes from games not consoles. You are wrong and you can read through the middle of this thread to figure out why.

Well money does come from the games. Console hardware is sold at razor thin margins (and sometimes at a loss). The majority of the profit comes from game sales and game licensing. If you don't believe me, look at the 3DO. The company that handled software licensing (the 3DO corporation) just licensed out the hardware design to consumer electronics manufactures thus completely disconnecting the software profits and hardware profits. The result? The 3DO was ridiculously expensive at launch.

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So if they lose $200 per console and if they sell 100 million consoles like the PS2 did, they'd lose 20 billion dollars. Good luck making that up in software sales.

While I also find it unlikely there will be a recordable BD drive in the PS3, your math is way off. Even if Sony did lose $200 per unit sold at launch, they wouldn't lose $200 on each console sold for the life of the console. The manufacturing costs drop dramatically over the life of the console.

I'm quite exited about the potential for XBox Live Arcade. The reduced cost associated with publishing a game via Live Arcade should allow for some interesting stuff to see the light of day that wouldn't have enough sales (or be too risky) to justify a full retail rollout.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 15, 2005, 01:00:53 AM
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MskoDestny wrote:
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lou_dias wrote:
If you can burn a cd and have the 360 execute code then the system is already open to hackers and crackers and I don't even care which one you are.  You can hack and crack the 360 all you want, it's no skin off my ass.

1) You still have no proof that they're actually recompiling the games. Since this would be incredibly inefficient labor-wise, I find it unlikely that's what they're actually doing.
2) Even if they are actual executables, what makes you think the executables won't be signed with some ridiculously long key that would take who knows how many thousands of years to crack with current computing technology. If that's the case, this feature is no more exploitable than the console's ability to play video files provided by the user.


No, I have no proof they are recompiling just like their is no proof that they are not recompiling but why would they need a separate emulator for each game?  The evidence I have posted leads one to believe recompiling is what is happening.
http://www.gamers.com/?run=news&news_id=4379
What did they have to license from NVidia in order to emulate hardware that they own?  Could it be low-level library source code that needs to be recompiled for the ATI gpu?  

Also, I never said games don't make the bulk of money.  I simply said that not all consoles are sold at a loss. (Especially not Nintendo consoles.)

Also, to decrypt encryption, all you need is time.
http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000530067666/
Since all emulators will boot the same way, eventually you see a pattern and someone will figure it out because that is what some people like to do.  Also encryption and de-encryption isn't practical all the time when you need 100% cpu for the actual game.  Usually only save game data is encrypted to thwart the simple cheater that can edit the gamesaves in a hex editor.

Sony's games are secure because their drive format (BLUE RAY) is proprietary (hmmm...kinda like Nintendo...).  Though it will be mass-marketed...  Funny how people critisize Nintendo for it...  Sony is trying to control your living room more than MS.

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So if they lose $200 per console and if they sell 100 million consoles like the PS2 did, they'd lose 20 billion dollars. Good luck making that up in software sales.

While I also find it unlikely there will be a recordable BD drive in the PS3, your math is way off. Even if Sony did lose $200 per unit sold at launch, they wouldn't lose $200 on each console sold for the life of the console. The manufacturing costs drop dramatically over the life of the console.


If they lose $100 a console and expect to sell 20 million in a year...that's 2 Billion in loses.

I underestimated the $200 because with a recordable BLUE RAY drive, you actually put the losses much higher than $200 expecially if they expect to lose just over $100 now with just a player.
http://portablevideo.engadget.com/entry/1234000407066657
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By the time the reporter talks about the Cell processor they start sounding like Sony marketing cheat sheet, but they do make it very clear that the PS3 will apparently cost between $300 and $400 upon its debut, and that according to “a high-level studio executive,” the “PS3 is a subsidized Blu-ray player that will sell 20 million units. The first HD player will be on the market for $1,000. ... Sony will be selling them at a loss the first six months to a year just to get Blu-ray players out in the market.”


again, that's players, not recorders...

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I'm quite exited about the potential for XBox Live Arcade. The reduced cost associated with publishing a game via Live Arcade should allow for some interesting stuff to see the light of day that wouldn't have enough sales (or be too risky) to justify a full retail rollout.


Yeah, things seem to be moving to "online distribution".  Even Nintendo is going that way with the "virtual console" feature of Revolution.  Personally, I like a pretty box and printed manual.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: McNorris on November 15, 2005, 01:22:02 AM
"I'll give you the kiddy thing, but I don't let that bother me, especially when you can get a lot of the "standard" titles on all the main machines. I think kiddy image games like the Zelda and Mario series can hold just as much grown-up attention provided they're well-written games, and they are."

You know I just don't get the "kiddie thing." Was Pac-Man (Original) "Kiddie?"

Look, I don't think you needs t1ts and intestines to make a game fun for an adult.

I play Mariokart while listening to Maiden.
Maiden=Great Metal
Mariokart=Great Game
Super Monkey Ball 2=Satanic game (eventually came out for PS2/XBox as "Super Monkey Ball Deluxe)

I guess what "kiddie" means is that you want to play games that you would not show to a child. I can relate to that, but I don't think that is the end all in game design. Socrates said, "You are what you repeatably do." (something to think about)

I think games should be easy to learn, challenging to master , easy to put down, and rich in their replay value.

Nintendo works for me here. I'm sure there are a few titles for PS2/XBox that fit (Super Monkey Ball being one), but I liked the GC for form and function. I owned a PS, not an N64, but I have honestly enjoyed my Gamecube. I would miss some of the GC-only titles just like I have missed a couple of titles on other consoles.

And honestly, I was all about as PS3 until I started looking into word about Revolution. I think I'm Revolution. (One {bleep} about Nintendo... WE NEED A FREAKIN' LIGHT GUN!!! Remember Duck Hunt for god's sake? Why no light gun games?)

Other factors in rebuking Sony:

-PS had the loading issue. (It would load only if the unit was upside down.
-My buddy's laptop "restore" software. It isn't flexible in its partitioning scheme. Has cost me time working on his computer. (Oh yeah, and the bundles software mostly sucks).
-Their latest little rootkit stunt (a big deal for me. Reminds me of the MS DR-DOS trick)
-Last CRT purchased green-screened in the first month, took Sony a month to send it to me. AND they didn't even send me any shwag or coupons for my trouble.
-My current TFT... 3 stuck pixels. THE LAST SONY PRODUCT I BUY ON SONY'S LONG GONE REPUTATION OF QUALITY

I was a Sony "fanboy" but with Sony, I really don't think the head knows what the a$$ is doing... The company is trying to be all things to all people. So I guess now I am a Nintendo "fanboy."
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: MskoDestny on November 15, 2005, 03:06:37 AM
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lou_dias wrote:
No, I have no proof they are recompiling just like their is no proof that they are not recompiling but why would they need a separate emulator for each game?  The evidence I have posted leads one to believe recompiling is what is happening.
http://www.gamers.com/?run=news&news_id=4379
What did they have to license from NVidia in order to emulate hardware that they own?  Could it be low-level library source code that needs to be recompiled for the ATI gpu?

There's a library that's part of the XBox devkit for low-level access to the nVidia hardware and it's likely that re-implementing this library would have infringed on one of nVidia's patents. It's likely there is a native version of this for the 360 that the emulation uses (this is fundamentally how UltraHLE worked). However, this doesn't require them to recompile the games.

I already gave an explanation as to why they might need a separate "emulator" for each game.

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Also, to decrypt encryption, all you need is time.

It took almost 5 years to decrypt a short message encrypted in RC5-64 (which uses a measly 64-bit key) using thousands of computers from around the world. It would be trivial for Microsoft to use a key large enough that it won't be cracked for a very long time.

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Since all emulators will boot the same way, eventually you see a pattern and someone will figure it out because that is what some people like to do.  Also encryption and de-encryption isn't practical all the time when you need 100% cpu for the actual game.

You don't have to sign everything, just the emulator update. It's checked once when you install it (well I'm guessing here of course). That's all that's needed for security in this case.

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Sony's games are secure because their drive format (BLUE RAY) is proprietary (hmmm...kinda like Nintendo...).

Blu-Ray is a standard. Besides the PS2 used standard DVD-ROMs and the only way to get homebrew running on that (apart from PS2 linux anyway) is to exploit a bug in the PS-1 emulation or physically modify the console.

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Funny how people critisize Nintendo for it...

They criticise Nintendo for it because it reduced disc capacity and raised disc manufacturing costs. The PS3 will undoubtedly still support standard DVD-ROMs for games that don't need the capacity and while Blu-Ray does cost more, it does offer substantially more capacity.

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I underestimated the $200 because with a recordable BLUE RAY drive, you actually put the losses much higher than $200 expecially if they expect to lose just over $100 now with just a player.

I don't think a recordable drive will be twice as costly to manufacture. It's basically a standard drive with a second laser, some more junk in the firmware, and maybe a little extra supporting hardware to maintain burn integrity.

Now I still don't think Sony will include a recordable BD drive for a number of reasons.

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Yeah, things seem to be moving to "online distribution".  Even Nintendo is going that way with the "virtual console" feature of Revolution.  Personally, I like a pretty box and printed manual.

Unless Nintendo sells their old games super cheap (like in the $1-$2 dollar range) I probably won't be interested in their online offerings. I like playing old games on the real hardware and most games can be had quite cheap through used video games stores and ebay.

What has me excited about Live Arcade is that it allows games to come to the XBox that never could under a retail scenario. This is already starting to happen on the PC with Steam. Ragdoll Kung-fu appears to be an innovative and potentially addictive game, but it never would have been released at retail.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: coldfish on November 15, 2005, 03:28:44 AM
Well, the compatability list is a hell of a lot larger than I'd have thought, and growing.  

Also, the individual patches are a lot smaller (<5MB).  And that you can dl them using a PC and burn them to a CD then read that burnt CD on your 360 is a surprise too.

I'm impressed! There's a lot to be said for 360 if it can software emulate an Xbox and go on to improve the visual quality on top of that.  I guess Xbox's archetectural simplicity has paid off in this case.


http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/backwardcompatibilityqa.htm



Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 15, 2005, 08:37:17 PM
about the Sony DRM issue:

http://www.ps3today.com/Blogs/News/hqs/blr_925.aspx

case closed.
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 16, 2005, 05:15:50 PM
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/press_release.php?aid=13036

Maybe now lawyer Jack Thompson can s.t.f.u. once and for all and realize it's a parent's responsibility to control what types of games their kids play...
Title: Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
Post by: Louis Dias on November 17, 2005, 03:21:16 AM
Rare employee says Perfect Dark Zero could run on Revolution

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=61679