Amiga.org
Operating System Specific Discussions => Other Operating Systems => Topic started by: SysAdmin on July 23, 2013, 08:59:12 PM
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http://www.zdnet.com/did-we-all-just-witness-windows-start-to-die-7000018344/?s_cid=e539&ttag=e539
Even Dave Haynie is commenting on this thread.
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If Windows is dying, it's because they hacked it to death trying to turn it into a tablet OS, not because of this "death-of-the-PC" myth nonsense.
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Betteridges lawof headlines states that if a headline ends with a question mark then the answer is usually no!...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines
Not that i care two hoots about windows fate though!
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ZDNet is such tripe. Every week they publish some new article "death of this or that!!" (I'm looking at you, Ed Bott and SJVN!) it's just loud-mouthed commentary and opinion pieces to bring in advertising dollars and drum up arguments from the same bunch of commenting jackasses, not real tech news. I'll normally pass on reading anything there, although if Big Dave is commenting it might be worth a look...
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What I think is killing windows is windows 8, people don't like change and that is exactly what happened with windows 8 but that's just my opinion. The new start screen is a good idea on a tablet or phone but on a desktop environment like a laptop or desktop I feel it just doesn't work the same way.
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A flawless Surface Pro will get you $302.
http://www.gazelle.com/sell/tablet/microsoft/surface-pro/wifi-only/surface-pro-64gb/495342-gpid
Ouch! That's $700 less than it sold for. Talk about losing value!
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Surface Pro is actually quite nice. The Surface RT, though - is less useful than a boat anchor.
8.1 will address many of the complaints that came along with W8. I've been running the PTR version for some time and it's come a long way. Can avoid the Metro (Modern UI) crap outright.
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Windows 8 lost me at the charms bar which is anything but charming. Bye bye, I'll stick with Windows 7 if I need to run Windows.
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iv got an Amiga 500
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Windows 8 lost me at the charms bar which is anything but charming. Bye bye, I'll stick with Windows 7 if I need to run Windows.
I agree, I think win 7 is probably the best windows as to date as it is modern yet backward compatible with most xp software.
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8.1 will address many of the complaints that came along with W8.
(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/604/ii6e.jpg)
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Windows 7 in my view is the best Microsoft offered to the consumers.
Windows 8 a failure. Yes because I have to install third party software just to get a start button on my laptop computer. Trying to support computers, laptops, cellphones, and tablets using the same operation system. To me users need to be able to get their work done fast. Gamers like myself want compatibility. I have a game rollercoaster tycoon. It does work on windows 8 but it so small that you cant see it. (yes I have install on Linux) I miss the old days where games just worked as long as you had hard-drive space. Yes I hate change because I don't like learning where everything is all over again.
I don't think the pc market will die. I still build my own. I use Linux on my desktop computers. True it want be as strong as the tablet and phone market. If I were a gaming company I would be going for tablet and phone market.
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Windoze died after '98. ME killed it! :laughing:
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YES! my evil master plan is working!
All i have to do now is remove windows from 3 billion other PC's around the globe!
not long from victory now!
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If Windows is dying, it's because they hacked it to death trying to turn it into a tablet OS, not because of this "death-of-the-PC" myth nonsense.
Bingo.
Some additional thoughts:
When they first announced they were porting Windows to ARM, I thought it was a bold move. Then the ARM version turned out to be Windows RT, a cut-down, crippleware version of Windows 8, itself suffering from a terrible identity crisis.
If Windows ARM had been full Windows (like Linux - same system, multiple architectures), they would have had something, especially with an x86-to-ARM (and vice versa) emulator. Instead, they're forcing everything through the 30%-cut Windows Store, cutting off decades worth of programs and reasons for using Windows. They had an opportunity to unify the platform - instead of just the UI - across form factors and they blew it.
Meanwhile, on x86, they're not outright restricting proper desktop programs, but they're sure not encouraging the appropriate UI for the form factor. Surely they could have used the "design language" of Metro to develop a desktop UI toolkit that would be familiar to both traditional desktop users and Windows Phone users.
And if they'd bothered pushing the "one-program-multiple-interfaces" feature of Windows 8, their problems would be solved: one codebase to build desktop and touch versions. Instant ecosystem.
Microsoft has a bad habit of messing with what works. XP fixed the stability and usability problems of the Win95-WinME era, so they followed it with the travesty of Vista. Windows 7 cleaned up that mess, so they threw it away and gave us desktop Metro instead.
I don't think 8.1 will stop the bleeding. It'll probably take them until 8.5 or 9.0 to turn things around.
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If Windows is dying, it's because they hacked it to death trying to turn it into a tablet OS, not because of this "death-of-the-PC" myth nonsense.
Agreed, Windows 8 is a POS, I binned my PC and bought a Mac, I have Parallels+Win7 just in case but I rarely ever need it.
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Windows or more accurate the Desktop OS has been on death row every since smart phones and tablets became popular. In say 5/10 years the 'traditional' home computer will be as retro as my A1200 :)
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Windows or more accurate the Desktop OS has been on death row every since smart phones and tablets became popular. I'd say 5/10 years the 'traditional' home computer will be as retro as my A1200 :)
MS are in trouble really, they are doing 'ok' with their phone platform, the XBOX One probably won't be as successfully as the 360, their Search business continues to lose $$$, their tablets are drowning and the desktop market is fading fast. At least they've got the MS Office and the business/server market to keep them in the black zone.
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It wouldn't ever fully die because of a lot of people like MS. I'm not sure if you can count people who just want their computer to 'do things' and don't care what OS it's running.
Maybe their monopoly status stops them from making something people can't resist buying.
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It wouldn't ever fully die because of a lot of people like MS. I'm not sure if you can count people who just want their computer to 'do things' and don't care what OS it's running.
But that's the thing that's really baffling about Win8. There is no better way to piss off the people who want "it just works" than to change the way things are done for no good reason and demand they get used to it...
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MS are in trouble really, they are doing 'ok' with their phone platform, the XBOX One probably won't be as successfully as the 360,
I disagree, the pre-order numbers are waay ahead of the 360 according to the analysts (same for ps4) - i waited for the hdmi 360 myself before buying but i've pre-ordered a One as I think it will be pretty good. The HD Skype alone is going to be great for us with lots of family and freinds OS.
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I disagree, the pre-order numbers are waay ahead of the 360 according to the analysts (same for ps4) - i waited for the hdmi 360 myself before buying but i've pre-ordered a One as I think it will be pretty good. The HD Skype alone is going to be great for us with lots of family and freinds OS.
We'll see, I did say probably ;)
Lots of people think the days of the console are as dead as the idea people will use their PC's to access the Internet, I think Nintendo would agree with that. If you look at the XBOX One you can see that MS is also thinking the same thing, it's a 'voice activated home media-web browser-cable-tv controller-social media center' first and a games console a distant second.
I doubt that MS will sell more XBOX One's than 360's over it's lifetime (80 million+).
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I hope MS dies the horrible death it deserves for the misery it inflicted upon developers for the last 20yrs.
I couldn't give a toss whether dumb users liked their products.
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My 2 cents...
The PC is supposedly dying, that is why both Microsoft and Intel stocks have been flat. MS wants to better compete in the mobile market and has made a few attempts. Windows 8 wasn't a great success and they had a major restructure at MS to deal with the new market.
They have about 40 billion dollars just sitting in the bank to deal with a changing market, with that kind of cash you can have many false starts and launch heavy opposition. Microsoft dominates markets and destroys competition, so I don't think MS or Windows will be going anywhere soon...
I do wish that Commodore was in this position and that the Amiga was the Market leader, but that's life.
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Windows will linger on as the operating system of the desktop, which will go the way of the netbook, dodo and Google Wave in a decade or so.
(http://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/pc-tombstone.jpg)
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Microsoft has a bad habit of messing with what works. XP fixed the stability and usability problems of the Win95-WinME era, so they followed it with the travesty of Vista. Windows 7 cleaned up that mess, so they threw it away and gave us desktop Metro instead.
Why the Vista hate?
My first experience with it was with Vista Business SP1 on a 2 GB RAM netbook. When I switched it on, it was horrible because the hard drive was indexing 20 GB of crapware files HP had installed. I didn't know this, and cursed it. And went to XP Pro.
A year later, the drive crashed and I did a fresh install of Vista business SP1. Totally different experience. Since then i have a PC desktop and laptop with Vista business and Win 7. Other thna a longer boot time (10 seconds on average) Vista is great.
By Vista SP2 it ended up reliable, stable and compatible. And looks nicer.
I bet if I put a Win 7 theme most people would never know it was Vista underneath.
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(http://schrier.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/desktop-computer-futures1.png)
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Keep repeating your same old mantra, persia. Maybe if you wish hard enough it will come true.
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Why the Vista hate?
This (http://blogs.palantir.co.za/codingsanity/archive/2010/08/26/review-windows-xp.aspx) sums it up nicely.
I bet if I put a Win 7 theme most people would never know it was Vista underneath.
Quite possible. Under the hood, Windows Vista is really version 6.0 and Windows 7 is really version 6.1. They fixed a lot, though!
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(http://schrier.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/desktop-computer-futures1.png)
Just replace the tablet with a HP all in one.
I personally don't like a laptop as a desktop replacement would prefer a smaller desktop to a laptop. Like a HP all-in-one for example.
Maybe you should get the CPUs out for comparison. Some of them are very tiny.
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This (http://blogs.palantir.co.za/codingsanity/archive/2010/08/26/review-windows-xp.aspx) sums it up nicely.
Yeah I can't agree that that's been my exact experience.
The hard drive grinding in Vista is due to a few things: the much better indexing and search service Vista has over XP; super fetch which over time learns to predict and pre-load things you mostly use; and system restore and defrag which are on by default. I turn off super fetch, system restore and defrag. And the sidebar-useless to me.
Explorer and multimedia issues? I don't know what he's on about there-never had an issue with either.
File copy and delete issues, lack of drivers, graphics corruption, orphaned windows, poor reliability are all pre-SP1 issue, which I admit I never did use.
I read lots of similar negative reviews but not any that were post Vista SP1 or SP2.
I nearly upgraded all my 3 Vista SP2 systems to Win 7, until I got a work laptop with Win 7, and found other than the marginally quicker boot time, there was nothing else there that made the upgrade worth the money.
But whereas Vista's issues were performance, Win 8's are usability=Metro is innapropriate for a non-touchscreen environment.
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Deniers gotta deny.
Keep repeating your same old mantra, persia. Maybe if you wish hard enough it will come true.
(http://www.mondaynote.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Ballmer-Memo-Joy-of-Tech-Ending.png)
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I think there will always be a place for desktop workstations, they may become a niche but like mainfarames they will continue to exist for a long time.
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I think all this talk of the death of the PC is premature. It is just the consumer market they are talking about. The business world will still need the PC and the business world is still using Windows Xp widely as well as Vista and Windows 7. I really don't have a problem with any of these versions of Windows. They all can perfom any computing function I need to do. Vista SP2 with 2gb+ of ram works just about as well for me as Windows 7. They aren't that much different inside. I disable prefetch, the background defragmenting and system restore in both and that takes care of the excessive hard drive access. I've no interest at all in Windows 8. I will have to deal with it some day, I'm sure, but I can wait a year or 2. By that time, a lot of the issues people have with it will be sorted out. The same thing happened with Vista but by the time that happened, it got such a bad rep they had to rename it Windows 7.
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If Windows ARM had been full Windows (like Linux - same system, multiple architectures), they would have had something, especially with an x86-to-ARM (and vice versa) emulator. Instead, they're forcing everything through the 30%-cut Windows Store, cutting off decades worth of programs and reasons for using Windows. They had an opportunity to unify the platform - instead of just the UI - across form factors and they blew it.
At one point Windows NT did run just like you describe, on multiple architectures... I know, I has a ARC bios Olivetti prototype machine that ran NT 4.0 - which was actually quite nice. The machine has a MIPS processor. I had to chuck it when a cheap KVM blew out the PS2 port. before that, it would actually run 16bit x86 Windows programs under emulation but not 32bit.
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At one point Windows NT did run just like you describe, on multiple architectures... I know, I has a ARC bios Olivetti prototype machine that ran NT 4.0 - which was actually quite nice. The machine has a MIPS processor. I had to chuck it when a cheap KVM blew out the PS2 port. before that, it would actually run 16bit x86 Windows programs under emulation but not 32bit.
I've seen NT4.0 running on SGI and DEC Alpha machines too. :cool:
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At one point Windows NT did run just like you describe, on multiple architectures... I know, I has a ARC bios Olivetti prototype machine that ran NT 4.0 - which was actually quite nice. The machine has a MIPS processor. I had to chuck it when a cheap KVM blew out the PS2 port. before that, it would actually run 16bit x86 Windows programs under emulation but not 32bit.
I've seen NT4.0 running on SGI and DEC Alpha machines too. :cool:
Indeed - I just got NT 4.0 up and running on an Alpha board the other day (gotta get some more RAM before I can put 2000 on it...) They even supported PowerPC, way back in the mists of time...unfortunately, they ditched everything but x86 with 2000 (save for a leaked RC1 beta that ran on Alpha,) but Windows Server up through 2008 did run on Itanium (I know that must thrill you as much as it does me :rolleyes:) Looks like they finally went x64-only for Server 2012, though - huzzah for homogeneity :/
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Deniers gotta deny.
Your rhetorical prowess is overwhelming.
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There are many reasons why Microsoft is failing.
1. Give customers what they want. If consumers wanted a tablet interface they would have purchased an Windows Mobile or iOS. Hence, why most people hate Windows 8 on their PCs.
2. Microsoft should adopt a more flexible business model giving consumers the right to use their software products for free if they agree to accept advertisements - for example during bootup/shutdown or on the desktop. A lot like how Google derives their income.
3. Microsoft has to accept that they missed the mobile and tablet boat. Google and Apple already own it. Xbox is doing well and until the next big thing arrives MS should concentrate on their existing product lines but at the same token be ready to learn from their past failures. A lot like how Blu-ray was a success and Betamax was not.
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2. Microsoft should adopt a more flexible business model giving consumers the right to use their software products for free if they agree to accept advertisements - for example during bootup/shutdown or on the desktop. A lot like how Google derives their income.
NO. Computing needs ads like colons need cancer.
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btw. A Windows 8 install is 15GB. Up from the 10GB install for Windows 7.
That's a big chunk out of a 120GB SSD.
I don't think it's metro ui that makes people hate Windows 8. I dislike it because there are no new features, it's like a cut down version of Windows 7.
Microsoft might want to make applications, instead of trying to make you buy a new operating system every year.
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I agree, I mean wtf is the journaled file system and proper object oriented architecture?
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I look forward to websites dedicated to PC believers. Maybe a red (Windows 8) versus blue (Windows 7) camps, both demanding new hardware for their aging OSs as the world moves on largely oblivious to them.
(http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/pc-obsolescence-640x353.png)
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Windows dying? Yeah right.
I notice the people that post here are Windows 8 bashers, but I've been using it for quite sometime now. From Alpha/Beta to RTM/Gold.
I love it, boots in a couple of seconds because the desktop isn't loading (loads when you click on the desktop application if you need it). Quick/snappy and navigating is easy to do swipe to the left swipe to right how hard is that???
The logon screen is great can add notifications and various other things, so some items you don't even need to logon to see. Birthday notifications, how many emails are in your inbox, weather.... all sorts :-)
I don't miss the start menu, and it is about time it died. Although we will be stuck with it for another generation yet until the younger kids have come through anyway.
Windows 8 apps are great, multiple windows are still there just run the mouse pointer down the left hand side and you get a bar appearing with thumb prints of all open applications.
The desktop is still there but I'm finding that more and more a cluttered mess, but there are applications that still need it :-(
The task manager in Windows 8 is 100% better with a nicer layout with a lot more information then Windows XP/Vista and 7.
The Windows 8 tools are far better too and for an enterprise/domain environment the list of tools and updates that just make everyday maintenance etc has far improved.
There is a huge number of the new generation that also think the same way, just need to visit any school. Having a 6 year old I can see where technology will be going.
Tablets, smart phones and laptops are the norm. They just jump on any of the three and straight away discover how to use Windows 8 and most haven't touched a computer before. It's amazing to see.
I remember the same arguments coming up when the start button was introduced and look where that led us?
IE10 in Windows 8 Application mode is great, thumb nails replaces the tab bar which makes it easier to see each webpage live without switching and many more cool little features one finds.
Windows 8 is great, I think they may have their timing a little off but in the long run they have made the right move.
The surface devices are fantastic too, great piece of kit. I'd recommend the pro over the RT version though. The RT is a strange device.
Anyway I wont continue on and wait for my stoning to begin ;-)
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I dont think Windows is dying. However a lot of things need to be changed. For example if you have used all OS from XP to Win8, You will find there isnt much difference anywhere. So it really that upgraded. In Win8 the only feature they have added is that the welcome page looks somewhat like a android mobile..
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XP to Win8, mate I started with dos 2.1 !!!
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This garbage that the tablet is taking over is just that, garbage. HP has said they are not going to make ANY desktop pcs from now on - only tablets. Yet another great business decision from HP.
MS has severely shot them selves in the foot with Windows 8.
I love my Amiga as much as anyone here, but I also have learned to get along with Windows (XP through 7 with Vista my current choice) and a nice big pc tower - still the best game machine in town!
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XP to Win8, mate I started with dos 2.1 !!!
Same here, still got my Commodore PC 20-II with 10" monochrome display, it came with dos 2.1 but I later installed Windows 2.0,
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PC sales are in decline, have been for some time now, the figures are out there and it doesn't look pretty. Windows as a desktop platform is therefore also 'dying', Windows on mobiles/tablets is a different creature.
As Intel’s PC processor division sees significant declines, the company has predicted that tablet computers could reach price points as low as $150 (£98) by this year’s holiday season.
PC Sales slump continues (http://www.thestar.com/business/tech_news/2013/07/17/intel_cuts_sales_outlook_as_pc_sales_slump_continues.html)
:)
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ZDNet is such tripe. Every week they publish some new article "death of this or that!!" (I'm looking at you, Ed Bott and SJVN!) it's just loud-mouthed commentary and opinion pieces to bring in advertising dollars and drum up arguments from the same bunch of commenting jackasses, not real tech news. I'll normally pass on reading anything there, although if Big Dave is commenting it might be worth a look...
+1. I think we can tell who's readership is dying. A PC is a personal computer. A Tablet is a form factor. But as we know sales and foot print are two separate things.
IMO Win 8 on a touch screen device is great(if hybrid). If people bothered to use an MS account to log on and learn the simple touch screen gestures they'd actually "get it". I get frustrated on my Work Win7 laptop now when I touch the screen and nothing happens. I also find it a little frustrating on my Win8 non-touch main PC. But what I find especially interesting is that when Microsoft release something new they get bagged for changing something that didn't need changing. When they don't change they get bagged for not being innovative. Bit of the Bart Simpson syndrome there.
It strikes me that so called "technologists" can be the most conservative of people.
Just as a side note. iPad sales have "fallen" 14% this qtr compared to last year. Is that the death knell of the iPad? I think not. But the news for PC sales is that they've "slumped" 10%. Note the "language" difference. Enjoy the tech media ride!
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And the ribbon in Word/Excel etc is even harder to use on a touch screen than it is on a non-touch screen.
(http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ballmer-reaper-windows-7-640x353.jpg)
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You also have to take many of those "slump" numbers with a grain of salt.
Some statistics firms, for instance - will list a Windows RT or Pro tablet as a PC in the numbers, but an iPad or Android tablet is classed as a tablet. A Windows RT tablet is in no way a "computer", lol. It's barely a tablet. Traditional PC sales *are* declining, but I am more inclined to think that people simply aren't buying/replacing machines as often as they used to. The technology has slowed down. I used to build a new gaming PC every XMas. I now do it every 2-3 years, as there's simply no logic in spending many thousands of dollars for what will get me 10% FPS in games between the two difering older/newer machines.
+1 to the words about ZDNet. I used to really enjoy visiting their site, but the place has gotten extremely "click whorish" lately where stories are puffed up as propaganda pieces solely for the purposes of driving traffic while containing no real meat to the article. I prefer The Verge these days - while not perfect, there's a lot less doomsaying going on there.
I feel the press often doesn't get the bigger picture. Most people do not ever buy a tablet to replace a full fledged PC. I own both an iPad and an Android device, and the thought of tossing out my $5000 gaming PC and using the tablets solely is ludicrous. Not doable. I am a computer enthusiast working in the trade, and a tablet will never replace my PC.
For a segment of the market, it is doable. My mother, for example - has had a Mac since 2009 or so. Used to do everything on it. Got her an iPad last year and she rarely touches the Mac anymore. About the only time she uses it is when she types up/prints recipes or Christmas cards and the like.
That being said, her needs are *extremely* limited. Her computing requirements generally consist of nothing more than checking Facebook, her Hotmail email, and playing those goofy Popcap games like Bejewelled. Tablet is purpose built for people like that, IMO.
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And the ribbon in Word/Excel etc is even harder to use on a touch screen than it is on a non-touch screen.
(http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ballmer-reaper-windows-7-640x353.jpg)
The ribbon interface is the epitome of horrific, terrible, badly thought out design. I wish death upon the person who thought it up, and their families. There is much hate here.
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Just in case no one got it, I really hate the Ribbon Interface!!!!!!!!
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I look forward to websites dedicated to PC believers. Maybe a red (Windows 8) versus blue (Windows 7) camps, both demanding new hardware for their aging OSs as the world moves on largely oblivious to them.
I like how you're no longer even pretending to make an argument, just snidely insisting that This Is How It Will Be because blind faith in the predictions of a bunch of tablet zealots. Don't stop believin', man! Hold on to that feelin'!
This garbage that the tablet is taking over is just that, garbage. HP has said they are not going to make ANY desktop pcs from now on - only tablets. Yet another great business decision from HP.
Wait, I thought they went back on that? (Because, you know, it was a stupid decision intended to "look decisive" by their CEO-of-the-month?) Or did they change their mind again?
Just as a side note. iPad sales have "fallen" 14% this qtr compared to last year. Is that the death knell of the iPad? I think not. But the news for PC sales is that they've "slumped" 10%. Note the "language" difference. Enjoy the tech media ride!
Traditional PC sales *are* declining, but I am more inclined to think that people simply aren't buying/replacing machines as often as they used to. The technology has slowed down. I used to build a new gaming PC every XMas. I now do it every 2-3 years, as there's simply no logic in spending many thousands of dollars for what will get me 10% FPS in games between the two difering older/newer machines.
Exactly. There's no evidence that PCs are being used less, just bought less (and even that's being played way the hell up.) But that doesn't fit with the death-of-the-PC narrative tablet zealots want to create, so it can't be the case!
The ribbon interface is the epitome of horrific, terrible, badly thought out design. I wish death upon the person who thought it up, and their families. There is much hate here.
Amen.
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Some statistics firms, for instance - will list a Windows RT or Pro tablet as a PC in the numbers, but an iPad or Android tablet is classed as a tablet. A Windows RT tablet is in no way a "computer", lol. It's barely a tablet. Traditional PC sales *are* declining, but I am more inclined to think that people simply aren't buying/replacing machines as often as they used to.
Yeah the take up rate of Tablets and the slow down in growth of PC's are mostly independent. It's like trying to draw conclusions from the difference in sales of washing powder and potato chips.
Windows 8 & especially 8.1 is actually really good if you try it. I wouldn't go back to Windows 7 now. I remember going from Windows 3.1 to OS/2 Warp and it was good, but then Windows 95 was much better. Some people still love OS/2 Warp, but I prefer better functionality & better performance (even if that means learning something new).
It is annoying that Windows RT is locked down, because it is basically a full operating system. There is a jailbreak for it, but it's not permanent (it's not a major problem to redo it after each reboot but it is an annoyance).
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@psxphill, tablets and desktops are both computers, one is declining in sales numbers, one is increasing in sales numbers. Yeah, it could be coincidence, and the nay sayers could be right the two aren't related. But more often than not if you have two similar things and one is going up and the other down there is a link...
(http://archive.thedailystar.net/photo/2011/08/26/2011-08-26__st01.jpg)
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I now work for Intel and if the PC is dying then someone better tell all the damn manufactures this more clearly so I can get a break from all the 12 hour days we've been slammed with the last several months pushing out chips! They sure the hell havent slowed down buying them.
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I've seen NT4.0 running on SGI and DEC Alpha machines too. :cool:
It runs quite nicely too.
I saw it running on a PPC machine once but not sure what the actual hardware was. Might have been an RS/6000 or StarMax model but don't quote me on that.
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@psxphill, tablets and desktops are both computers, one is declining in sales numbers, one is increasing in sales numbers. Yeah, it could be coincidence, and the nay sayers could be right the two aren't related. But more often than not if you have two similar things and one is going up and the other down there is a link...
(http://archive.thedailystar.net/photo/2011/08/26/2011-08-26__st01.jpg)
I think the more likely explanation is that the vast majority of people have a PC that suits their needs - any PC built within the last few years is more than adequate for most people, so they are being replaced when they break rather than when a faster model comes along. The market for new PCs has shrunk, so they sell less.
Tablets, on the other hand, have only been on the market for a few years - there are a lot of people out there who would like a tablet but haven't got one yet so there is a bigger market for them, and they sell more as a result. Eventually most people with a need for a tablet will have one, they will be fast enough for their needs, and the market will shrink just as it has with PCs.
IMO, the traditional PC will be around for a long time - tablets complement PCs, but don't replace them. I use my Nexus 7 a lot, and it's far more convenient than my PC for quickly checking something on the internet, but if I want to do any "real" work I use my PC.
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So much for putting the start button back on the desktop, below is a video of windows 8.1 :(
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-GB/windows-8/preview
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@psxphill, tablets and desktops are both computers, one is declining in sales numbers, one is increasing in sales numbers. Yeah, it could be coincidence, and the nay sayers could be right the two aren't related. But more often than not if you have two similar things and one is going up and the other down there is a link...
This isn't like CRT vs LCD/LED where people stopped buying one and then started the other.
You're the nay sayer (One who frequently engages in excessive complaining, negative banter and/or a genuinely poor and downbeat attitude).
I'm just saying that I don't think Window is starting to die (at least no more than every living thing starts to die as soon as it's born).
Sales figures are irrelevant. How many people are using computers is more important than how many people are buying them. That figure is harder to get though.
Even Dave Haynie is commenting on this thread.
The thread is TL;DR. I might be marginally interested in what he has to say if you copy and pasted it. However just because he has a history with commodore, doesn't mean that I would take on his opinion of the market now. I rather make up my own mind, which is why I didn't drink the Linux kool aid.
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YES! my evil master plan is working!
All i have to do now is remove windows from 3 billion other PC's around the globe!
not long from victory now!
LOL: Wrings hands and laughs maniacally.
The marketers certainly have their victory in making everybody think that quarterly sales is the indicator for technology usage footprint.
Here's and interesting stat: There are more people who have bought an iPad that don't actually use it to connect to the internet than those that do. What's going on there? :)
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I dont think Windows is dying. However a lot of things need to be changed. For example if you have used all OS from XP to Win8, You will find there isnt much difference anywhere. So it really that upgraded. In Win8 the only feature they have added is that the welcome page looks somewhat like a android mobile..
I kinda disagree.(I have used a lot of operation systems from Microsoft. Gmenu, windows 2.11, windows 3.11, windows 95, windows 98 and SE, windows Xp, windows me, Windows 2000, windows vista, windows 7 and windows 8. I do see some differences. Mostly how you do things to get things done.) If the gaming industry does not support windows 8 that does say a lot. I have not seen many new games come to windows 8.
I do believe that Microsoft needs to reconsider the path they are going. If they going to compete with apple they need to change their game plan. People want things to work out of the box.
I don't like the cloud nonsense that going into the industry. That just asking for security leaks. Even If you use passwords with $^#$@ it wont protect you from people stealing your info.
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The ribbon interface is the epitome of horrific, terrible, badly thought out design. I wish death upon the person who thought it up, and their families. There is much hate here.
Seriously, I like the Ribbon a lot and it's the only thing I miss in Office 2011 for Mac! (it's kind of a ribbon prototype in Mac Office).
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To a different point Unix has won the tablet war, it's down to Linux based Android and BSD based iOS. Unix installed base now is around 900 million devices. The installed base of Windows is hard to calculate because it's been around longer, how many of the 3 billion manufactured units are still in use? 1 in 3? The numbers are likely close.
(http://static.diffen.com/uploadz/thumb/4/40/iOS-vs-Android.jpg/300px-iOS-vs-Android.jpg)
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To a different point Unix has won the tablet war, it's down to Linux based Android and BSD based iOS. Unix installed base now is around 900 million devices. The installed base of Windows is hard to calculate because it's been around longer, how many of the 3 billion manufactured units are still in use? 1 in 3? The numbers are likely close.
(http://static.diffen.com/uploadz/thumb/4/40/iOS-vs-Android.jpg/300px-iOS-vs-Android.jpg)
Pretty loose definition of Unix. Any looser and you could include Windows in there too. Unix-VMS-NT-Win8. You do realise Linux is not a Unix branch. Not officially N E way.
@djos : The Office 2013 Ribbon is a bit more touch friendly but it's not there yet.
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Pretty loose definition of Unix. Any looser and you could include Windows in there too. Unix-VMS-NT-Win8. You do realise Linux is not a Unix branch. Not officially N E way.
@djos : The Office 2013 Ribbon is a bit more touch friendly but it's not there yet.
Sorry Gertsy but POSIX compliance in the WinNT CLI does not equal "based on Unix".
I rather like it especially in Excel, I find now that i'm used to it I can find what I want orders of magnitude quicker than before. (PS, couldnt care less about touch, Im talking on real computers)
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So much for putting the start button back on the desktop, below is a video of windows 8.1 :(
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-GB/windows-8/preview
That's the first time I've ever bothered to really look at Win 8.x and the first thing I think is.... OMG it's the Zune client interface. No really, start up your old Zune client, roam around and see if it isn't so. Win 7 and linux for me, keep your 8.blech.
Plaz
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To a different point Unix has won the tablet war, it's down to Linux based Android and BSD based iOS. Unix installed base now is around 900 million devices. The installed base of Windows is hard to calculate because it's been around longer, how many of the 3 billion manufactured units are still in use? 1 in 3? The numbers are likely close.
(http://static.diffen.com/uploadz/thumb/4/40/iOS-vs-Android.jpg/300px-iOS-vs-Android.jpg)
Android has barely dented iOS on the tablet front. The numbers you are referring to includes Android phones. If one wishes to call iOS "Unix" or "BSD", and Android "Linux" that's on them. But sticking a Ferrari decal on a Honda, or vice versa - depending on your perception, is sort of wonky. Based on and actually being are two real different things, and until the day comes I can download source code for *nix and natively compile it without changes on either Android or iOS, I do see a difference.
Apple is still far more profitable despite losing quite a bit of ground market share wise to Android on the handset end. iOS developers make more than Android developers still, despite the larger market share going to Android.
PS: my daily driver devices are Android based. No Apple fanboyism here, just facts. Simple as searching for "iPad market share".
All Windows 7 games run on Windows 8 without issue, for the most part. I've not yet hit one that does not, and I purchase 5-6 a month. The claim that game manufacturers do not support Windows 8 is horseplop unless your version of "supporting Windows 8" is a giant sticker on the box that SAYS "FOR WINDOWS EIGHT!!!!11!!".
It doesn't really need to be stated. Windows 8 has a full desktop GUI that really is not terribly different than Windows 7, and around here, most of the W8 detractors are guys that will openly admit they have never even tried it :)
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Sorry Gertsy but POSIX compliance in the WinNT CLI does not equal "based on Unix".
I rather like it especially in Excel, I find now that i'm used to it I can find what I want orders of magnitude quicker than before. (PS, couldnt care less about touch, Im talking on real computers)
My association wasn't POSIX or I might have quoted Powershell as well.
It was the direct link from NT to Digital VMS that came from RSX-11, Which came from PDP-11, and yes you may have guessed it, early versions of Unix TSS and C. UNICS Timeshare, or UNIX TSS being the source for all Unix variants.
Gasps of disbelief I hear. The sound of keyboards clicking searching in google, could it be true? Suggest you search with Bing if u want real answers.. :)
Linux "appeared" from a binary kernel copy of Minux in the late 80's (From nowhere some zealots would have us believe) around the same time that binary reverse engineering was very popular. (Arrrgh me hearties!!!)
If you were to actually believe the "story" on the origins of the Linux and to some extent the Minux kernel, that would mean that the origins of Windows (of the NT variety ie the current arm) come from the actual origins of Unix whereas Linux does not. Think about that for a moment.
Though I'm pretty sure you could draw a direct line from Minux to either BSD or Unix32 both university popular in the mid to late 80s. Perhaps those university creators should admit to their "artistry" to re-establish the line and missing link.
PS: Real computers have touch too. Typed on my Dell XPS12 I7 SSD with Win 8 and Touch.
@Duce. My experience is the same. Even old CS 1.5 works.
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It was the direct link from NT to Digital VMS that came from RSX-11, Which came from PDP-11, and yes you may have guessed it, early versions of Unix TSS and C. UNICS Timeshare, or UNIX TSS being the source for all Unix variants.
Oy, this again...Wikipedia doesn't mention anything about RSX-11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSX-11) being based on Unix, nor do I see anything on the subject from a quick web search. Dave Cutler, the project lead on RSX-11M and later architect of VMS and Windows NT, was also known for open disdain towards Unix. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Cutler#Attitude_towards_Unix) And arguing that there must be a basis because both of them ran on PDP-11s is like saying that I'm a derivative of Don Knotts because we're both human beings...
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That would be a suitable analogy were Don Knotts alive. Or did we just witness another death?
Linus T had open distain towards Minux so ?
Your argument on PDP-11 and the OS that drove the origins of RSX-11 is just as valid or invalid as mine for the same non-evidential reasons.
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All Windows 7 games run on Windows 8 without issue, for the most part. I've not yet hit one that does not, and I purchase 5-6 a month. The claim that game manufacturers do not support Windows 8 is horseplop unless your version of "supporting Windows 8" is a giant sticker on the box that SAYS "FOR WINDOWS EIGHT!!!!11!!".
It doesn't really need to be stated. Windows 8 has a full desktop GUI that really is not terribly different than Windows 7, and around here, most of the W8 detractors are guys that will openly admit they have never even tried it :)
I disagree with you Duce. I take my experience. I have used windows 8. I hate it. I would not even upgrade my parent's business computer to windows 8.
1. one game I had to change it to windows xp sp3 for compatibility. The game would lag very bad. It was slow before I fix it.
2. one game I had it was so tiny that you could not see it.
3. Windows 8 in 1 year become slow on the desktop. It was taking long time to load up. (Sandybridge I3 3.30ghz 12Gb of Ram)
4. I am not going to spend hours figuring out how to trouble shoot compatibility for games.
5. Every session of w8 the video driver would crash. There was no new driver for it.
6. Defragment was a fail.
7. Windows 8 is the new Windows Me
Tile everything that junk. It not really windows it just a touch screen thing for useless traditional desktop interface. I am not going to spend 400-1000 dollars for touch-screen monitor. Pretty much the operation system is brand new.
Most of the W8 detractors knows that it not worth the money. Nor is it worth the time. You have to relearn how to use windows unless your person like me. I got a free third party application that adds an start menu button to it. All the applications are on the list. It made my life easier.
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Your argument on PDP-11 and the OS that drove the origins of RSX-11 is just as valid or invalid as mine for the same non-evidential reasons.
What? You're the one making the claim; the burden of evidence is on you. What basis do you have for claiming that RSX-11 was based on Unix?
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What? You're the one making the claim; the burden of evidence is on you. What basis do you have for claiming that RSX-11 was based on Unix?
No burden on me John, I'm only dancing. You replied to me with no more evidence than my original preposition. My basis is knowledge. Can you mind meld over forums?
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I disagree with you Duce. I take my experience. I have used windows 8. I hate it. I would not even upgrade my parent's business computer to windows 8.
1. one game I had to change it to windows xp sp3 for compatibility. The game would lag very bad. It was slow before I fix it.
2. one game I had it was so tiny that you could not see it.
3. Windows 8 in 1 year become slow on the desktop. It was taking long time to load up. (Sandybridge I3 3.30ghz 12Gb of Ram)
4. I am not going to spend hours figuring out how to trouble shoot compatibility for games.
5. Every session of w8 the video driver would crash. There was no new driver for it.
6. Defragment was a fail.
7. Windows 8 is the new Windows Me
Tile everything that junk. It not really windows it just a touch screen thing for useless traditional desktop interface. I am not going to spend 400-1000 dollars for touch-screen monitor. Pretty much the operation system is brand new.
Most of the W8 detractors knows that it not worth the money. Nor is it worth the time. You have to relearn how to use windows unless your person like me. I got a free third party application that adds an start menu button to it. All the applications are on the list. It made my life easier.
What OS were you moving from? Win98?
And "in 1 year" means you had to be running an early beta/pre-release? Not something to base a final opinion on.
What is this defragment thing you talk of?
Windows ME was a totally different architecture?
How is the video driver problem the pre-release OSs fault? I hope you're as understanding when it comes to Linux and video drivers.
There are many things that piss me off in Windows 8, but nothing you've listed.
AFAIC the experience of the new start screen, IE10 on it, and touch make it the best touch OS I've ever used. Though I have to admit I haven't used android tablets to any depth, but if they're anything like the phones I don't think I want to, also from what I remember when helping to set one (a Tablet) up for my cousin. Yucky.
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I haven't seen hide nor hair of the Metro/tile interface in W8 since the day I installed the OS, simply because I disabled it all.
As a whole, I find my machine runs quicker on Windows 8 vs W7, but I do prefer Windows 7 still. Regardless of the fact I've done away all the tile crap, I still have an inherent problem with the whole logic of "2 OS's in one", even if I don't see the tile version in the least. That being said, 8.1 is leaps and bounds better than 8.0.
Some people simply cannot fathom using Windows 8, just like some people can't even deal with Windows 7 and still use XP solely despite the fact it's at EOL status. Personal preference and all that. I don't like the OSX interface at all, but I'm not about to dismiss the entire OS as crap because I simply find it wholly unappealing to my personal tastes.
I've had zero problems with system stability, myself. The only reboots I do in the least is when Windows update requires them. This machine literally hasn't been turned off since the day I installed W8.
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No burden on me John, I'm only dancing. You replied to me with no more evidence than my original preposition. My basis is knowledge. Can you mind meld over forums?
You're the one that made the claim, mister. Where did you acquire this knowledge? Can you provide a link? If not, can you share about your source?
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Seriously, I like the Ribbon a lot and it's the only thing I miss in Office 2011 for Mac! (it's kind of a ribbon prototype in Mac Office).
The big problem is that ribbons don't make logical groupings. Sure you can put things where you want them, but that is no help to me when I want to do something in different office applications, cut and paste is in different places... What if I want to use someone else's computer, etc... I can't find anything. And since the tried and tested (since 1984) menu bar is gone, I don't have any fall back options.
There is no logic in the ribbon interface.
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You're the one that made the claim, mister. Where did you acquire this knowledge? Can you provide a link? If not, can you share about your source?
A link? It was in the 70's pre internet. Wikipedia, you're kidding me right? The articles there are only as good as their references. My sources are real life and books (remember those) and they are varied. The original catalyst for my interest was sparked by discussions back in the mid-late 80s with Digital VAX system engineers who worked onsite. While I was also working on Burroughs MCP with Algol and Fortran. The nightshifts were long and may things discussed but my special interests back then were all things language and OS or Master Control Programs as they were called back then, Operating Systems are what IBM called them. There was as much vehemence and loyalty for brands and flavours back then, as there is now. I remember many conversations vividly and in the intervening years have read many books. I don't expect you to accept any of this and the truth is you don't have to. But I'm not 'gonna suspend my history and reality for Commodorejohn. Nor stop sharing it.
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The big problem is that ribbons don't make logical groupings. Sure you can put things where you want them, but that is no help to me when I want to do something in different office applications, cut and paste is in different places... What if I want to use someone else's computer, etc... I can't find anything. And since the tried and tested (since 1984) menu bar is gone, I don't have any fall back options.
There is no logic in the ribbon interface.
Yeah the ribbons on 2013 are better but still not totally logical or touch friendly.
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My sources are real life and books (remember those) and they are varied. The original catalyst for my interest was sparked by discussions back in the mid-late 80s with Digital VAX system engineers who worked onsite.
Okay, so DEC engineers told you that RSX-11 was Unix-derived? Or was it from a book? If so, which book? Maybe my library chain has a copy...
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What OS were you moving from? Win98?
And "in 1 year" means you had to be running an early beta/pre-release? Not something to base a final opinion on.
What is this defragment thing you talk of?
Windows ME was a totally different architecture?
How is the video driver problem the pre-release OSs fault? I hope you're as understanding when it comes to Linux and video drivers.
There are many things that piss me off in Windows 8, but nothing you've listed.
AFAIC the experience of the new start screen, IE10 on it, and touch make it the best touch OS I've ever used. Though I have to admit I haven't used android tablets to any depth, but if they're anything like the phones I don't think I want to, also from what I remember when helping to set one (a Tablet) up for my cousin. Yucky.
I did test in beta. I used the final version when it come out to. Microsoft didn't listen to the beta testers. I don’t really consider Windows 8 a Windows product. It different in nature then previous versions. (No I did not move from windows 98. I have used a lot of operating systems from microsoft.)
windows 95 and up use defragment to organize the computer files and folder. It makes it faster.
Older video cards does crash on windows 8. It made no difference if I used AMD or Nvidia graphic card. If you use Intel CPU/graphic it works fine.
Windows me in my book is worse operation system created by Microsoft. It was not stable. It was released before Windows 2000. Windows Vista is the second. Windows 8 is the third.
Get rid of touch. How many people on the market own a touch screen lcd? Very few people do. Touch screen are over priced.
Even windows 8 tablets are over priced. The prices went down. I believe the price will go down further.
Linux drivers as long as you use the driver from Linux kernel your fine. The other drivers are not tested. They state they are. Steal a line from someone else. Yeah they tested, just it didn't work for them either. You have to consider that some Linux distros have more support for wifi then others.
I hate cellphones and tablets. To me they just another item to lose. I already have enough trouble keeping track of items.
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Windows is dieing because they still don't get the market, keep it simple, two desktops is not simple. The charms bar is not intuitive at all.
(http://www.teqarazzi.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/apple-vs-android-vs-windows.png)
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Blame me for being a Cro-Magnon, but I absolutely despise tablets.
And the failure rate on laptops is appalling.
I also like to work at a desk (its organized), not in my lap.
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ZDNet is such tripe. Every week they publish some new article "death of this or that!!" (I'm looking at you, Ed Bott and SJVN!) it's just loud-mouthed commentary and opinion pieces to bring in advertising dollars and drum up arguments from the same bunch of commenting jackasses, not real tech news. I'll normally pass on reading anything there, although if Big Dave is commenting it might be worth a look...
I would agree that ZDNet is utter balls most of the time. After all this is the same site that sent someone to do that awful interview with Barry Altman, that was more like a marketing advert than a interview. However, only once in a blue moon, a writer has a moment of clarity and realises they can actually write. But they are that rare I can't think of one off the top of my head.
As for the death of Windows...
Come on you guys seriously think Microsoft will let it die? Yes Windows 8 is a bit of a joke. But having lived with it for a while I can say it's not the worst OS I have ever used. I think ME still holds that honour, closely followed by COS. There are just too many bugs and inconsistencies in it. Like the patchy support for my USB network dongle. Apart from that, once I got past the jarring learning curve, it was a doddle to use. But saying that I do own the pro version and had access to the desktop and such.
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Linux "appeared" from a binary kernel copy of Minux in the late 80's (From nowhere some zealots would have us believe) around the same time that binary reverse engineering was very popular. (Arrrgh me hearties!!!)
Linux is as much derived from Minix (not Minux) as Justin Bieber music is derived from Black Sabbath...
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Linux is as much derived from Minix (not Minux) as Justin Bieber music is derived from Black Sabbath...
:roflmao:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanenbaum%E2%80%93Torvalds_debate
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Linux is as much derived from Minix (not Minux) as Justin Bieber music is derived from Black Sabbath...
Absolutely true, Staf.
Minix uses a microkernel and is designed as a educational exercise in OS development.
Linux steal its thunder from Unix and has a much messier kernel structure.
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Android is basically Linux wit a usable GUI.
(http://www.kitguru.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/steve-ballmer-funny.jpg)
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Android is basically Linux wit a usable GUI.
And a less creaky, archaic userland.
Also: could we ban persia from posting pictures, please?
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IMHO the worst MS additions are the ribbon and metro interfaces. If people are that stupid that they cannot work out how to use a PC they should buy a mac instead!
Experienced users want to use keyboard shortcuts instead of silly icons.
Take for example finding a program (that is not a tile) to launch using Windows 8 you need to [Windows]+[Q] then start typing the name and hit enter yet in Windows 7 you can simply press the [start] button and type what you want in the search box. So much for making life easier.
Office 2003 is much easier to use as experienced typists could simply use [Alt]+[F]+[A] for example without the use of a mouse or touching the screen.
MS has a tendency to dictate what users want - pity that failed in Windows 8 with their start menu backflip. If MS wants to retain their reduced market share they need to start listening and giving users what they want because their Windows 3.x/95 heyday has long gone.
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IMHO the worst MS additions are the ribbon and metro interfaces. If people are that stupid that they cannot work out how to use a PC they should buy a mac instead!
Experienced users want to use keyboard shortcuts instead of silly icons.
Take for example finding a program (that is not a tile) to launch using Windows 8 you need to [Windows]+[Q] then start typing the name and hit enter yet in Windows 7 you can simply press the [start] button and type what you want in the search box. So much for making life easier.
Office 2003 is much easier to use as experienced typists could simply use [Alt]+[F]+[A] for example without the use of a mouse or touching the screen.
MS has a tendency to dictate what users want - pity that failed in Windows 8 with their start menu backflip. If MS wants to retain their reduced market share they need to start listening and giving users what they want because their Windows 3.x/95 heyday has long gone.
And oddly enough, the keyboard shortcuts and full desktop GUI are still there in Windows 8. She's pretty much a Windows 7 Desktop experience under the hood. As are they the same in every Windows and Office release since the dawn of time.
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And a less creaky, archaic userland.
Android uses the GNU userland, I use it every day.
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Android uses the GNU userland, I use it every day.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to what I read, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_%28operating_system%29#Development) it doesn't have the full set of GNU libraries - and it certainly doesn't have X or any X desktop environment.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to what I read, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_%28operating_system%29#Development) it doesn't have the full set of GNU libraries - and it certainly doesn't have X or any X desktop environment.
I run the full gamut of software available from the Debian ARM repositories on my phone.
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Hmm, really? And you didn't have to manually install an X server?
Guess someone needs to update that page...
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Hmm, really? And you didn't have to manually install an X server?
Guess someone needs to update that page...
I don't use an xserver on it, but I could if I so wanted to.
edit: I don't think you quite grasp the concept of what "GNU userland" is either.
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Android uses the GNU userland, I use it every day.
I needed to install BusyBox to get a shell which is somewhat usable on my Android phone and some people will claim BusyBox is not GNU userland.
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I needed to install BusyBox to get a shell which is somewhat usable on my Android phone and some people will claim BusyBox is not GNU userland.
Surely there are such people.
But the fact I can ssh into my phone and apt-get install pretty much anything I need makes Android no different to any of my other Linux boxes.
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Android has barely dented iOS on the tablet front.
Orly? :?
Android tablets now account for 61.2 percent of the Western European tablet market, more than double the 25.1 percent recorded the same time last year. Apple iOS devices, meanwhile, fell to 37.2 percent of Western European tablet market sales by distribution, from 71.2 percent at the same time last year.
http://www.osnews.com/comments/27219
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You know that there are other parts of the world than western Europe, right?
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You know that there are other parts of the world than western Europe, right?
Nowhere worth living though. ;)
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I must admit Ice Cream Sandwich is pretty nice, you know an OS has come of age when it stops stealing ideas from Apple and Apple starts stealing ideas from it.
(http://phillipgrimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/pc-dead-art-02.jpg)
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I must admit Ice Cream Sandwich is pretty nice, you know an OS has come of age when it stops stealing ideas from Apple and Apple starts stealing ideas from it.
(http://phillipgrimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/pc-dead-art-02.jpg)
ICS 4.0 is nice but it's 3 versions ago. :)
Jelly Bean 4.3 is out now and looking pretty tasty indeed, even compared to the JB 4.2.2 I run on my ancient SGS2 and HTC Sensation phones.
I think the stealing is a good thing too, when they all start taking each others ideas and improving upon them (even if it's just a tiny little improvement) it means a better experience for all of us users no matter which OS we use.
Didn't Jobs say something like "Good artists copy, great artists steal!"?
Wise words, and usually I couldn't stand the man! lol
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Being mainly an Apple person I haven't gotten to use Jelly Bean too much, what are some of the best new features of Jelly Bean?
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Being mainly an Apple person I haven't gotten to use Jelly Bean too much, what are some of the best new features of Jelly Bean?
It's not slow is the main one. :)
I use CyanogenMod on my devices, even the wife and kids phone's and tablets so I'm not sure what are stock features and what aren't tbh.
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I had several iPhones then got a HTC WinPhone running 7.5 which was crap, interesting but ultimately crap. And then I got a HTC Sensation running GB2.3 which I hated and the morons took nearly 2 years just to update it to ICS4.0 which was too late for me as I only kept it for 6 months and ditched it for an iPhone4s which I bought outright.
I did have the HTC rooted and running ARHD 6.x for a while before the company I worked for banned rooted/JB'd smartphones from their network on pain of Job loss. I must say tho there is really nothing I miss from Droid at all - even if you gave me a choice between two identical smart phones and one was droid and the other was iOS, I'd take the iOS phone every day!
The iOS apps are better quality, the UI is polished and consistent, things "just work", iOS updates come direct from Apple with no delays imposed by OEM's and Carriers and your phone is fully supported with updates for at least 3 years. 95% of Droid handsets are literally abandonware - only a few elite models see any real OS update support!
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I think eventually x86 ond ARM will eventually converge on around the same power, price and performance per watt and then Windows RT will be irrelevant and will cease to exist.
Microsoft has the best development tools for business software, and there is a lot of momentum behind .NET. Legacy x86 software exits. etc.
Windows is not going anywhere...
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Being mainly an Apple person I haven't gotten to use Jelly Bean too much, what are some of the best new features of Jelly Bean?
running bitorrent client :)
I had iphone 1, 3 & 4 but switched to Galaxy S3 and the only thing i miss about the iPhone is how the voice mail works. Now I hate it when people leave me messages.
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All Android phones are a pain in the ass if they come with manufacturer skins/bloatware. Buy a Nexus or HTC One/S4 Google model, or just roll vanilla android onto whatever you have. It's well worth it. I found my last S3 damned near unusable with TouchWiz, but loved it with vanilla JB. Cyanogen is a Godsend.
Vanilla Android I find just great. I'll likely never go back to an iPhone.
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All Android phones are a pain in the ass if they come with manufacturer skins/bloatware. Buy a Nexus or HTC One/S4 Google model, or just roll vanilla android onto whatever you have. It's well worth it. I found my last S3 damned near unusable with TouchWiz, but loved it with vanilla JB. Cyanogen is a Godsend.
Vanilla Android I find just great. I'll likely never go back to an iPhone.
No rooted Android device should be without LBE Security Master.
TOTAL control over app permissions and unlike the crappy implementation we had in CM7 that crashed apps when they were denied a permission it requested this "just works". :)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=43644495&postcount=1616
Also you should install the F-Droid "app store" for OSS apps and install AdAway using it.
Both of these together make using Android a thoroughly pleasant experience!
https://f-droid.org/FDroid.apk
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Very good points, Nicholas - and ones I should have raised myself, heh. Always is security issues to be aware of when you start noodling around with custom ROM's and such.
Android isn't for everyone. I still use an iPad on a day to day basis, mostly because a lot of my content (books and movies I enjoy re-reading/re-watching) are locked inside the Apple ecosystem.
A lot of people have terrible, terrible experiences with Android as a whole, and honestly, IMO - the single worst thing about Android is the fact that every different handset maker slaps their own goofy interface onto the darned devices, making the whole experience seem very fragmented and disjointed between different manufacturers. I find vanilla Android, Jellybean in particular - to be just a killer mobile OS. If for some reason I was forced to go back to Android with TouchWiz or a specific manufacturers skinned up variant of Android I'd probably rather use a feature phone, heh.
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Very good points, Nicholas - and ones I should have raised myself, heh. Always is security issues to be aware of when you start noodling around with custom ROM's and such.
Android isn't for everyone. I still use an iPad on a day to day basis, mostly because a lot of my content (books and movies I enjoy re-reading/re-watching) are locked inside the Apple ecosystem.
A lot of people have terrible, terrible experiences with Android as a whole, and honestly, IMO - the single worst thing about Android is the fact that every different handset maker slaps their own goofy interface onto the darned devices, making the whole experience seem very fragmented and disjointed between different manufacturers. I find vanilla Android, Jellybean in particular - to be just a killer mobile OS. If for some reason I was forced to go back to Android with TouchWiz or a specific manufacturers skinned up variant of Android I'd probably rather use a feature phone, heh.
I feel yoour pain. Whenever my Dad (In his sixties) asks me for help with his SGS2 I get so annoyed with it as it's the stock Samsung Touchwiz ICS ROM on there and I'm so used to Cyanogen it really bugs the hell oout of me trying to find things in the settings. Especially when he's asking me to help him "blind" over the landline so he can fix whatever problem he's having.
I would love to root it and install Cyanogen oon it for him but he uses the Sky Go app to watch sports and movies as he works 12hr night-shifts and the damn app refuses to work on rooted devices.
I did install the DTV India app for him as it has all the sport channels he needs but not the movie channels that he pays for as part of his Sky TV satellite subscription.
He is thinking of changing from Sky TV for Virgin Media Cable TV so hopefully when he does I'll be able to put CM10.1 on the phone for him at last as the Sky Go app is tied to his satelllite subscription so will no longer work.
On a related note my Mother-in-Law (Also in her sixties) has had an iPhone since the day it was released in 2007. She's never once installed an app on it nor has she upgraded the OS on it. She uses it for phone calls, text messages, mobile Safari and nothing else whatsoever.
She might as well have a feature phone! lol
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Didn't Jobs say something like "Good artists copy, great artists steal!"?
Wise words, and usually I couldn't stand the man! lol
He did say it... But he stole it from someone else...
I have to say I really didn't like Jobs as a person (and reading his biography didn't help), but the one this I did like about him was the fact that it felt like he actually used the products Apple sold. No sense of committee or compromise, the product did exactly what he want and did it perfectly. And I have to be honest, that makes for a product that feels "better", despite not having all the wiz bang features one might want!
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All Android phones are a pain in the ass if they come with manufacturer skins/bloatware. Buy a Nexus or HTC One/S4 Google model, or just roll vanilla android onto whatever you have. It's well worth it. I found my last S3 damned near unusable with TouchWiz, but loved it with vanilla JB. Cyanogen is a Godsend.
Vanilla Android I find just great. I'll likely never go back to an iPhone.
It is annoying though. It'd be like ford selling a car that only had 1 forward gear and you had to take it to some back street garage to have a new gearbox fitted. Sure some people will do it, but most will just not buy the car in the first place.
The stupid thing is that they add all the stuff on it to differentiate. I would like one of them to differentiate by shipping AOSP (I always pick a phone on hardware and not software anyway, I look for the smallest phone with the best camera). Android development needs to mature though, there are too many kernel ports. There should be one source tree that can be built for all phones and you shouldn't have to choose what features you want to work and what bugs you are willing to live with.
I don't recommend hacking anything to anyone, I'll only help them if they come to me & they know the risks. With Android I wouldn't even recommend updating to the latest manufacturer supplied firmware, most people are happiest with the software that was on the phone when they bought it. Every manufacturer update is worse in terms of speed & stability.
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I love the effect new & current technology is having on the world..
Tablets/Touchscreens
Driving those with OCD insane every time they notice a fingerprint on the screen
Laptops/Notebooks (heat)
Keeping male fertility down who needs contraceptives these days.
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It is annoying though. It'd be like ford selling a car that only had 1 forward gear and you had to take it to some back street garage to have a new gearbox fitted. Sure some people will do it, but most will just not buy the car in the first place.
The stupid thing is that they add all the stuff on it to differentiate. I would like one of them to differentiate by shipping AOSP (I always pick a phone on hardware and not software anyway, I look for the smallest phone with the best camera). Android development needs to mature though, there are too many kernel ports. There should be one source tree that can be built for all phones and you shouldn't have to choose what features you want to work and what bugs you are willing to live with.
I don't recommend hacking anything to anyone, I'll only help them if they come to me & they know the risks. With Android I wouldn't even recommend updating to the latest manufacturer supplied firmware, most people are happiest with the software that was on the phone when they bought it. Every manufacturer update is worse in terms of speed & stability.
Just buy a Nexus device.
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Android claims to be more open than iOS but the reality is very different, Google have actually handed the carriers more power than they have ever had and the reality is iOS gives consumers a better deal with no carrier bloatware, no carrier controlled updates, no carrier branding uglifying your phone and you know what you get every time you buy an iDevice, a consistent apple user and support experiance.
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In theory I should prefer Android over iOS, but since I have a developer licence for my iOS devices... I have the advantages of Android with the convenience and security of iOS. And as it happens I prefer Objective-C to Java (both great languages, just Obj-C fits better with my thinking)... So iOS is now my main OS, which is a crazy thought actually!?
-Edit- actually my own personal projects almost always use a Linux kernel (still can't get real time to work though), with the GNUStep framework :)
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Android claims to be more open than iOS but the reality is very different, Google have actually handed the carriers more power than they have ever had and the reality is iOS gives consumers a better deal with no carrier bloatware, no carrier controlled updates, no carrier branding uglifying your phone and you know what you get every time you buy an iDevice, a consistent apple user and support experiance.
Ahem.... http://www.google.com/nexus/all/
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Ahem.... http://www.google.com/nexus/all/
As they say, one swallow does not a spring make!
The nexus range so far don't even support global 4G!
I don't know the state of 4G in the UK but here in Australia and also the US we have multile 4g networks to choose from and the thought of buying a new handset and being stuck on 3G for 1-2 years is ludicrous!
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As they say, one swallow does not a spring make!
The nexus range so far don't even support global 4G!
I don't know the state of 4G in the UK but here in Australia and also the US we have multile 4g networks to choose from and the thought of buying a new handset and being stuck on 3G for 1-2 years is ludicrous!
We have ONE 4G network and it's crap too. lol
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We have ONE 4G network and it's crap too. lol
We've got one great one (Telstra), one decent one (Optus) and then we have the carrier known here by most as VodaFail :D
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Nexus 4 is last gen Google phone regardless. Both the Samsung Galaxy S4 and HTC One Google edition are fully 4G, though the pricing on them is significantly higher than the LG Nexus 4.
Curious to see final details on the new Google/Motorola Moto X. Been a bit disappointed lately with lack of card slots in the Google phones and sure hope the Moto X has one, as my S3 is getting a bit long in the tooth.
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From what I've read the google Version of the s4 does not support global 4g frequencies!
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4G is getting along quite ok here in Sweden, I got a Samsung Galaxy s3 4G and speed tested where I live (not in a big city but 40-ish km from Gothenburg) I get between 54-62 Mb/s down and using unlimited data plan I can't complain when downloading torrents from it :)
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I have to say I really didn't like Jobs as a person (and reading his biography didn't help), but the one this I did like about him was the fact that it felt like he actually used the products Apple sold.
That may be true, but I doubt he ever gone so far as to upgraded the OS on his personal iPhone...
Otherwise that process would be better...
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That may be true, but I doubt he ever gone so far as to upgraded the OS on his personal iPhone...
Otherwise that process would be better...
What's so hard about it? It does it for you with two finger taps!
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What's so hard about it? It does it for you with two finger taps!
never actually had it work right. Well, maybe once...Takes forever, more than once its crashed leaving the phone in an non-bootable state. Apple in all their user-friendliness cant check if you have enough space prior to starting, and I had a SSD. If I NEVER see iTunes again it will be too soon.
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What's so hard about it? It does it for you with two finger taps!
That's what she said!
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That's what she said!
*groans*
:D
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iTunes is 99.99% of the reason I am entirely steering clear of any Apple mobile devices in the future. Sadly, until this ipad gives up the ghost, I'm still locked into their ecosystem.
iTunes is the biggest gongshow, trainwreck piece of software on the Windows platform by far. Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but I think that's entirely intentional on Windows. It runs fine on a Mac, but not on Windows. I think they figure I'll get irked enough so I'll replace all my PC's with Mac's, lol.
I've had ZERO, and I mean ZERO issues with itunes on my macs. Friendly on memory, never crashes or bogs the machines down. Windows though, oooh boy, completely different story. Not uncommon on my systems to find it using 2+ GB of system RAM doing nothing at all, just the program loaded not even playing music or with a device attached.
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@Duce
When in doubt blame Windows.
:)
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@Duce
When in doubt blame Windows.
:)
After switching to Mac earlier this year I have to agree, windows is just junk!
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@Duce
When in doubt blame Windows.
:)
Hehe, one of those "if the shoe fits" deals. And I say that as someone with MCSE/MCSA certs :)
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never actually had it work right. Well, maybe once...Takes forever, more than once its crashed leaving the phone in an non-bootable state. Apple in all their user-friendliness cant check if you have enough space prior to starting, and I had a SSD. If I NEVER see iTunes again it will be too soon.
If you look in Settings->General->Usage it gives you a full and detailed audit of your memory usage (and other usage metrics)... Also, an upgrade, OS or app won't start if there isn't enough storage space.
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iTunes is 99.99% of the reason I am entirely steering clear of any Apple mobile devices in the future. Sadly, until this ipad gives up the ghost, I'm still locked into their ecosystem.
iTunes is the biggest gongshow, trainwreck piece of software on the Windows platform by far. Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but I think that's entirely intentional on Windows. It runs fine on a Mac, but not on Windows. I think they figure I'll get irked enough so I'll replace all my PC's with Mac's, lol.
I've had ZERO, and I mean ZERO issues with itunes on my macs. Friendly on memory, never crashes or bogs the machines down. Windows though, oooh boy, completely different story. Not uncommon on my systems to find it using 2+ GB of system RAM doing nothing at all, just the program loaded not even playing music or with a device attached.
I have both iPad and iPhone, I don't like iTunes either. Since iOS 6, I haven't had to use iTunes anymore, as everything can be done using iCloud.
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The only thing that really bothers me about the death of Windows is the potential for loss of Visual Studio as a DE. I actually really like Visual Studio, to the extent that I think you'd have to be mad to develop Windows based applications with any other tool.
I like Linux but to my knowledge there isn't really a direct equivalent of a Visual Studio type of development environment on Linux? Correct me if I am wrong and I will happily go and check it out :)
Brian.
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Just buy a Nexus device.
No sdcard slot and if you bought a nexus 2 years ago then it's stuck on 4.1.2
I'd rather buy the phone I like the look of and run any version of android I want on it.
Apple are the best at software support, but I don't like the hardware on those either.
I've been looking for something similar to my current phone, which is an xperia ray, but there really isn't anything I like.
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The only thing that really bothers me about the death of Windows is the potential for loss of Visual Studio as a DE. I actually really like Visual Studio, to the extent that I think you'd have to be mad to develop Windows based applications with any other tool.
I like Linux but to my knowledge there isn't really a direct equivalent of a Visual Studio type of development environment on Linux? Correct me if I am wrong and I will happily go and check it out :)
Brian.
In the past you could choose one of the Borland products such as Delphi or C++ Builder, but you are absolutely correct... there is not much competition (from commercial products anyway) which is a shame. I believe both of those products were also available on Linux, however I seem to remember the Kylix IDE being a little unstable under Linux.
In Linux there are a lot of IDEs to choose from that you can use with the various GNU languages. Eclipse, Genie, CodeBlocks, etc...
xwpe is a clone of the old Borland "Turbo" IDE if you are nostalgic for that :)
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PC's (and Mac desktops) aren't going anywhere for the time being - especially since a lot of these iDevices (smartphones and tablets) are being purchased in addition to existing home PCs.
People will move towards using desktops less and less though as the tablets (or more correctly, the applications) become more capable. Smartphones alone will never be practical enough for the broad spectrum of PC use (yeah - I *can* write a novel on a smartphone but why would I when there's better options available?).
And that doesn't even begin to cover stuff like specialist applications - Photoshop, video editing, desktop publishing - these (pretty common) PC usages require a mouse, Wacom tablet, large screen, lots of storage - all we'll see is just the right 'tool' being used for the right job.
This will impact PC sales but it certainly won't 'kill' the PC. Regarding Windows... Microsoft is struggling to find a way to stay relevant - that walled-garden iOS strategy (and the payoff) is sooo tempting but its not what Windows is about - the Modern UI needed to happen to unify smartphones/tablets/PCs but its hopelessly optimistic implementation (that devs would shift to Metro apps and users would be happy running apps from the start screen) was misguided and heavy-handed.
I actually like Windows 8 - the start screen/charms etc. don't bother me in the slightest - and the underlying version of Windows is to me, the best yet - I prefer it to Windows 7.
But I spend 99.9% of my time on the desktop and rarely, if ever launch 'modern' apps - MS should've known this would be the outcome and realized that Metro should have been subservient to the desktop - not the other way around.
I guess in their haste to make 'touch' a selling point (which the desktop still does badly) they figured Metro had to be front and center - and it's cost them a lot of credibility which is a shame because Windows 8 really is a good OS underneath the fluff.
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I guess in their haste to make 'touch' a selling point (which the desktop still does badly) they figured Metro had to be front and center - and it's cost them a lot of credibility which is a shame because Windows 8 really is a good OS underneath the fluff.
What's underneath that makes it better?
I still haven't activated my copy, so maybe I'm missing something but the default desktop them looks like pants, and they've removed stuff (like they did when going from Vista to Win 7).
All in all I felt I had one hand tied behind my back.
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My 16 year old grand daughter just received an HP "laptop" for her birthday. It had Windows 8 on it. After two days, that machine was gone.
If they can't talk the kids into this bomb, do you really think it will fly?
She is now happy again, with a nice powerful new Windows 7 tower. She likes games, and is a budding computer artist (quite good, I might add). If they can't convince the kids that the PC is dead, where will that go?
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What's underneath that makes it better?
I still haven't activated my copy, so maybe I'm missing something but the default desktop them looks like pants, and they've removed stuff (like they did when going from Vista to Win 7).
The code was optimised for speed and memory usage for running on tablets, but as it uses the same code then you get the same benefit.
The desktop looks the same to me, background picture + icons + task bar at the bottom. The start menu & Aero has gone, but I don't miss either of them. The only thing I'm a little disappointed about is they stopped supporting Virtual PC/XP Mode, but there are other free emulators. Windows 8.1 preview is nicer, but on the whole Windows 8 is perfectly usable.
I can't understand why anybody would downgrade to Windows 7. It would be like returning a Ferrari because you preferred the feel of the gear stick in your Ford.
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The code was optimised for speed and memory usage for running on tablets, but as it uses the same code then you get the same benefit.
The desktop looks the same to me, background picture + icons + task bar at the bottom. The start menu & Aero has gone, but I don't miss either of them. The only thing I'm a little disappointed about is they stopped supporting Virtual PC/XP Mode, but there are other free emulators. Windows 8.1 preview is nicer, but on the whole Windows 8 is perfectly usable.
I can't understand why anybody would downgrade to Windows 7. It would be like returning a Ferrari because you preferred the feel of the gear stick in your Ford.
Yeah I'm not convinced about the performance gains. i suspect they've taken things out that were there before in Win 7. Tiny 7 does a lot of this and ends up lightning fast..
I mean Win7 Home had Mediacentre pre-installed which I know slows it down as I've removed it and Win 7 (and Vista) is faster without it.
Are there any real world tests on equally loaded set ups?
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What's underneath that makes it better?
I still haven't activated my copy, so maybe I'm missing something but the default desktop them looks like pants, and they've removed stuff (like they did when going from Vista to Win 7).
All in all I felt I had one hand tied behind my back.
I'll try not to be too subjective (since a lot of the 'feel' of using a system depends on its specifications and configuration) but on my i7/Radeon HD 5870, Win 8 'feels' snappier, more optimized and just a slick experience overall (can't believe I just typed that :D)
On more solid ground, I like the changes to the file-copy system, the Task Manager - I like the Ribbon interface on Windows Explorer (just seems more accessible to me).
Installation seems quicker (something that they're continued to work on since Vista) and doing an in-place upgrade (applications and all) from 7 (or 8 Release Preview) worked flawlessly for me.
Under the hood tweaks also include some fixes to the WinSxS system (badly needed) - it's still a bloated hard disk hog but it's not as bad as it was with Windows 7 and anyone with SSD space concerns about Win 8's footprint should know that they'll save all that space (and more) with Windows 8.
8.1 is going to have some nice new features too - direct support for 3D printing has piqued my interest as well as improvements to SkyDrive and numerous other features.
The lack of a Start Menu doesn't bother me at all - I use a pretty small number of applications most of the time (3D, video-editing, Photoshop etc.) so hopping to the Metro UI or clicking on a pinned icon on the taskbar works fine for me (YMMV obviously).
Is it a huge improvement? No - and if you're happy with 7, there's probably not much reason to change. Should you downgrade from 8 to 7? Personally I wouldn't but I understand there's people that don't feel the improvements outweigh the things they've removed - for me they did.
*Edit* oh, and do I think MS was right to go in this direction with Win 8? No. As I mentioned, I think the desktop experience *is* improved (along with some of the underlying systems) but forcing Metro/modern UI on desktop users isn't (and hasn't) going to gain them any traction in the markets they're desperate to make an impact in. They needed to be smarter and instead they've taken a blunt-force approach - hopefully they'll learn from this for Win 9.
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Microsoft called the Windows 8 interface "metro" in a couple of press releases over a year and a half ago, it was a code name for the design language they used to make the Windows 8 interface. It's like calling Windows 7 "Vienna."
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Microsoft called the Windows 8 interface "metro" in a couple of press releases over a year and a half ago, it was a code name for the design language they used to make the Windows 8 interface. It's like calling Windows 7 "Vienna."
They never bandied about beta names like "Chicago" and "Vienna" the way they ballyhooed "Metro." (The closest they got before that was "Longhorn," which only people who cared about Vista pre-release bothered with.) The reason they dropped "Metro" was because a minor lawsuit gave them a good excuse for escaping the fantastically terrible word-of-mouth it'd gotten - only it didn't work, and "Metro" stuck. Just a shame Metro the thing stuck with it... :/
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Are there any real world tests on equally loaded set ups?
Yes. Most benchmarks favour windows 8.
They never bandied about beta names like "Chicago" and "Vienna" the way they ballyhooed "Metro." (The closest they got before that was "Longhorn," which only people who cared about Vista pre-release bothered with.) The reason they dropped "Metro" was because a minor lawsuit gave them a good excuse for escaping the fantastically terrible word-of-mouth it'd gotten - only it didn't work, and "Metro" stuck. Just a shame Metro the thing stuck with it... :/
dwup.inf from windows 8
[version]
signature="$CHICAGO$"
.....later on.....
;Profile for LocalService and NetworkService, moved from Users in Longhorn, creator specifies security
.....later on.....
;Profile for system account - moved from Docs and Settings in Whistler. Creator specifies security.
They are internal names & the only time they really used any of them publicly was in the beta test before the product name was decided.
I don't care about metro as I just don't use it. Which is good because I can't remember what I'm supposed to call it now.
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I don't care about metro as I just don't use it. Which is good because I can't remember what I'm supposed to call it now.
I'm quite fond of 'TIFKAM' - or as The Register puts it: "The Interface Formerly Known As Metro" :D