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Operating System Specific Discussions => Other Operating Systems => Topic started by: nicholas on December 30, 2010, 02:25:58 AM
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Self signed homebrew is now possible after the PS3's private keys have been cracked.
AROS for PS3 anyone? :D
http://psgroove.com/content.php?581-Sony-s-PS3-Security-is-Epic-Fail-Videos-Within&
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spe.library perhaps? ;)
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Revenge at last!!!
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52115&highlight=bastards%21 (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52115&highlight=bastards%21)
Excellent!!
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Revenge at last!!!
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52115&highlight=bastards%21 (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52115&highlight=bastards%21)
Excellent!!
Nothing is uncrackable. :)
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Are we sure Sony can't find a defense for this? I've longed for real access to PS3 hardware (that wasn't intentionally crippled by the hypervisor).
I'd go for a PPC OS ported to the PS3 - cool hardware!
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Are we sure Sony can't find a defense for this?
They can always ban the PS3 from PSN. The bastards.
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They can always ban the PS3 from PSN. The bastards.
Maybe they'll just release the PS4.
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This is awesome news. I was royally pissed when they took this feature away. When I bought the PS3 that feature was touted by them and part of the reason I purchased the unit. When they took it away, saying it was optional but then you couldn't even log in anymore, I was furious. Suck it is all I can say.
On a side note the PS3 sucks anyway. One thing that bugs me about it is if you don't use it for like a week you need to update it. The update takes forever via wireless so you have to download it from a computer onto a USB stick and then transfer it. the xBox360 is so much better in that regard.
Enough of my rant anyways. I am glad this has happened. Sony took a feature away people paid for. Imagine someone pulling out the air conditioning in the car you bought because they thought you could modify the engine if they left it in there?
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This is awesome news. I was royally pissed when they took this feature away. When I bought the PS3 that feature was touted by them and part of the reason I purchased the unit. When they took it away, saying it was optional but then you couldn't even log in anymore, I was furious. Suck it is all I can say.
On a side note the PS3 sucks anyway. One thing that bugs me about it is if you don't use it for like a week you need to update it. The update takes forever via wireless so you have to download it from a computer onto a USB stick and then transfer it. the xBox360 is so much better in that regard.
Enough of my rant anyways. I am glad this has happened. Sony took a feature away people paid for. Imagine someone pulling out the air conditioning in the car you bought because they thought you could modify the engine if they left it in there?
Just another part of the 'you don't really own it" logic that prevails these day. I'm waiting for some corporate scumbag to suggest an addition to the Digital Mellinium Copyright act that makes altering your own pocessions a crime. Seems like the next logical step now that ripping MP3s from CDs you own is now technically illegal.
Trust me, I glad immortality is not possible because I am convinced the future hold a lot of qualifiers for the freedoms we take for granted today.
I thought using calculators in school was stupid (having been taught multiplication when I went to school).
I can't wait for the day when people have to be hardwired 24/7 to the internet (or something more corrupt) just to compete. I promise you , one day, technology and the Republican party will Borg us all (and you won't have a say in it - hell you'll probably be convinced to support it).
Damn! Now I sound like some kind of hybrid Tea party/scifi geek/paranoid conspiracy nut job. But a new stage in evolution is soon to come upon us, and I'm glad I'm too old to have to face the negative aspects of it.
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great news now the ps3 is pretty much open like the xbox1. we know how popular that one was when it was hacket... so there is interesting times ahead for the ps3 :-)
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Just another part of the 'you don't really own it" logic that prevails these day. I'm waiting for some corporate scumbag to suggest an addition to the Digital Mellinium Copyright act that makes altering your own pocessions a crime. Seems like the next logical step now that ripping MP3s from CDs you own is now technically illegal.
Trust me, I glad immortality is not possible because I am convinced the future hold a lot of qualifiers for the freedoms we take for granted today.
I thought using calculators in school was stupid (having been taught multiplication when I went to school).
I can't wait for the day when people have to be hardwired 24/7 to the internet (or something more corrupt) just to compete. I promise you , one day, technology and the Republican party will Borg us all (and you won't have a say in it - hell you'll probably be convinced to support it).
Damn! Now I sound like some kind of hybrid Tea party/scifi geek/paranoid conspiracy nut job. But a new stage in evolution is soon to come upon us, and I'm glad I'm too old to have to face the negative aspects of it.
I know exactly what you mean. It is an interesting place. i think something will give before it gets that bad though. We'll probably be due for a World War by then anyways.
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here is the first standalone linux boot on the ps3....start at 3:00..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk8QBtKmIjc
:-)
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Self signed homebrew is now possible after the PS3's private keys have been cracked.
AROS for PS3 anyone? :D
http://psgroove.com/content.php?581-Sony-s-PS3-Security-is-Epic-Fail-Videos-Within&
Epic fail, hardly if it took up to almost 4 years to get there.
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Epic fail, hardly if it took up to almost 4 years to get there.
They weren't trying until they took Linux away. 12 months is all it took, not 4 years...did you even watch the videos?
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Great...so now they will just update the system and make it as shit as the Xbox 360 BIOS/firmware you are forced to use to make sure nobody can have any fun at all :)
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I know exactly what you mean. It is an interesting place. i think something will give before it gets that bad though. We'll probably be due for a World War by then anyways.
Thanks, I thought my constant rumination on the global economic slump, the constant attack on personal freedoms and civil liberties, global military tension, and the potential negative consequences of technology might be just depression.
But I keep hearing sane rational people telling me that their worried that while things are bad, that they could get REALLY bad. Anyway what can you do?
So, to go right back to topic, a MorphOS PS3? Yeah!
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Great...so now they will just update the system and make it as shit as the Xbox 360 BIOS/firmware you are forced to use to make sure nobody can have any fun at all :)
I guess you didn't RTFA.
We now have Sony's private keys that they use to sign the games you buy in the shops.
We can now sign our own homebrew demos/games/OS's using their keys and run them on unmodified PS3's as if they were signed by Sony.
No firmware update can do anything to stop this without rendering all previously released titles unusable.
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after what i understood the ps3 is so hacked now that if sony are going to fix anything. they must start all over again and release a new consol... that will not happen. looks like some serious hack this one...
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Its NOT a HACK as earlier poster said, the software will be exactly the same as sony had released it. No alterations or tricks or anything needed.
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As a PS3 owner, I think this is great news. Not because I want to play pirated copies of new games but because it opens up a new world for home brew apps. I wouldn't mind seeing something like XBMC or AROS (or MorphOS/OS4) ported. Gonna be interesting to see what programmers come up with.
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As a PS3 owner, I think this is great news. Not because I want to play pirated copies of new games but because it opens up a new world for home brew apps. I wouldn't mind seeing something like XBMC or AROS (or MorphOS/OS4) ported. Gonna be interesting to see what programmers come up with.
Here's a 45 minutes talk about how they went about things
http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/29/hackers-obtain-ps3-private-cryptography-key-due-to-epic-programm/
I look forward to being able to load a PS2 emulator so I don't have to have both machines hooked up. I have a PS3 slim, so they'd long since removed that feature.
Even if Hyperion would like to, I don't expect to see OS4 released for PS3 via this hack, as it exposes them to legal onslaught from Sony, which is a fight they likely do not want to go through.
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Are we sure Sony can't find a defense for this?
That depends upon how brittle their security framework is. If the keys to the kingdom are really what the security system is all about, then the design is very poor indeed. Any sufficiently mature design, intended to remain operational for at least a decade, would include a protocol for revoking and replacing keys and cryptographic algorithms.
If I remember correctly, the Blu-Ray system is prepared to be upgraded if the keys which enable it to work should be compromised. As the design came out of Sony, just like the PS3, I expect that the PS3 has the same kind of layered security defense.
But that does't have to mean that the design actually has to work. Let's say a key is compromised: how do you safely revoke and replace it? I remember reading about the Blu-Ray security system, and how difficult it would be to revoke a key and replace it. Since not all Blu-Ray devices are connected to the Internet, and some may require manual intervention for updating them, it may not be realistic to revoke and replace the keys without rendering existing discs unplayable. That would be an extremely unpleasant outcome for consumers.
This could get really ugly.
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I guess you didn't RTFA.
We now have Sony's private keys that they use to sign the games you buy in the shops.
We can now sign our own homebrew demos/games/OS's using their keys and run them on unmodified PS3's as if they were signed by Sony.
Actually they haven't yet dug out these particular keys (keys used to sign games). What they have dug out are the keys used to sign executables. See [youtube]hcbaeKA2moE[/youtube]
As the presentations points out while the keys to sign actual Bluray games discs are not yet dug out, it's just a matter of time (and effort).
No firmware update can do anything to stop this without rendering all previously released titles unusable.
Firmware updates are to be expected but since there are ways to downgrade it won't be a problem, at least from homebrew point of view. However, it becomes a problem if you want to pirate games: New games will require a new, bugfixed firmware to run.
I predict emulation of new firmwares in the future, similar to that can be seen with PSP: The emulator will run on top of the hacked system, appearing as the latest unhacked system to the game, making it perfectly happy to run.
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Any sufficiently mature design, intended to remain operational for at least a decade, would include a protocol for revoking and replacing keys and cryptographic algorithms.
If I remember correctly, the Blu-Ray system is prepared to be upgraded if the keys which enable it to work should be compromised. As the design came out of Sony, just like the PS3, I expect that the PS3 has the same kind of layered security defense.
If you see the full presentation the situation is explained quite well. It is trivial to overwrite any revocation lists totally breaking the chain of trust.
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Any sufficiently mature design, intended to remain operational for at least a decade, would include a protocol for revoking and replacing keys and cryptographic algorithms.
If I remember correctly, the Blu-Ray system is prepared to be upgraded if the keys which enable it to work should be compromised. As the design came out of Sony, just like the PS3, I expect that the PS3 has the same kind of layered security defense.
If you see the full presentation the situation is explained quite well. It is trivial to overwrite any revocation lists totally breaking the chain of trust. Also, there's a reliable way to downgrade from whatever update Sony might come up with. In short: Sony is screwed.
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Its NOT a HACK as earlier poster said, the software will be exactly the same as sony had released it. No alterations or tricks or anything needed.
Actually currently you need to hack the PS3 with the USB dongle. This will change once the disc keys (and any other keys that might be needed) have been recovered. Later on this should change, however.
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Actually currently you need to hack the PS3 with the USB dongle. This will change once the disc keys (and any other keys that might be needed) have been recovered. Later on this should change, however.
Thanks for the clarification, Piru. I don't want hacked software, but a $299 MorphOS console would be nice. How hard is it going to be to figure out the undocumented hardware that has previously been hidden by the hypervisor?
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If you see the full presentation the situation is explained quite well. It is trivial to overwrite any revocation lists totally breaking the chain of trust. Also, there's a reliable way to downgrade from whatever update Sony might come up with. In short: Sony is screwed.
Yes, you are correct. I just watched the last 15 minutes of the presentation, and this looks as bad as it gets. The Sony designers certainly ticked all the right boxes and threw the right algorithms at the task (anybody not using ECC and AES these days?), but what did them in was likely a trivial programming error in the code that was supposed to supply proper crytographic random numbers to the ECC implementation.
Makes you wonder whether the crypto was properly reviewed by a separate team, or if the same guys who wrote it also reviewed and "certified" it. My guess is that it's probably the latter. With that much at stake (Blu-Ray security, PSN security, etc.), this is exactly the kind of process you must not scrimp on. But it happens all the time, even for organizations which ought to know better.
I guess it's time to short your Sony stock, if you have it ;)
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If you see the full presentation the situation is explained quite well. It is trivial to overwrite any revocation lists totally breaking the chain of trust. Also, there's a reliable way to downgrade from whatever update Sony might come up with. In short: Sony is screwed.
And this all happened because Sony wanted to stop Linux, and by doing so pissed off hackers. :D
Some top boss in Sony is probably taking his hat and leaving the company by now...
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Yes, you are correct. I just watched the last 15 minutes of the presentation, and this looks as bad as it gets. The Sony designers certainly ticked all the right boxes and threw the right algorithms at the task (anybody not using ECC and AES these days?), but what did them in was likely a trivial programming error in the code that was supposed to supply proper crytographic random numbers to the ECC implementation.
Actually I don't believe it to be an error per se. They just failed to realize that "random number x" actually meant "new random number x every time", while elliptic curve crypto documentation is quite clear about it. This is the epic part in the fail.
Makes you wonder whether the crypto was properly reviewed by a separate team, or if the same guys who wrote it also reviewed and "certified" it. My guess is that it's probably the latter. With that much at stake (Blu-Ray security, PSN security, etc.), this is exactly the kind of process you must not scrimp on. But it happens all the time, even for organizations which ought to know better.
Indeed. Bruce Schneier summarized it pretty well: http://www.schneier.com/essay-028.html
I personally would never even imagine trying to build my own crypto. It's just too easy to fail. I'm perfectly happy to use ready to use and proven solutions such as things provided by openssl.
Here's another recent crypto failure:
HDCP 'master key' supposedly released, unlocks HDTV copy protection permanently (http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/14/hdcp-master-key-supposedly-released-unlocks-hdtv-copy-protect/)
(well not that recent as it was predicted ages ago (http://www.securityfocus.com/news/236) that the thing was broken... oh, noone listened)
And here's one somewhat older (well newer really;)) case that was really serious:
Debian OpenSSL Predictable PRNG Toys (http://hdmoore.com/tools/debian-openssl/)
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Actually I don't believe it to be an error per se. They just failed to realize that "random number x" actually meant "new random number x every time", while elliptic curve crypto documentation is quite clear about it. This is the epic part in the fail.
That could have been a case of "cookbook programming": 1) find a working, documented implementation of the algorithm and deploy it, 2) ..., 3) profit!
Bruce Schneier at one point came to regret writing his landmark book "Applied cryptography" because it led programmers to believe that the magic was in the algorithms, and not in how they were deployed.
Indeed. Bruce Schneier summarized it pretty well: http://www.schneier.com/essay-028.html
It's right on the money.
I personally would never even imagine trying to build my own crypto. It's just too easy to fail. I'm perfectly happy to use ready to use and proven solutions such as things provided by openssl.
We may never know how Sony came to choose the technology they deployed. Organizations of that scale usually learn only from failure, and there haven't been that many security tech failures originating from within Sony, unless I'm mistaken (I would not consider the CD "root kit" debacle to be a comparable security failure: it "only" compromised the security of the consumer, but not the security of the manufacturer).
Microsoft had the opportunity to learn from the XBOX security hacks, but Sony's previous console was not as technically complex as the XBOX. So Sony could not build upon an existing design and iterate.
I guess that because Sony started over from scratch for the PS3, it led to the security design to be developed from scratch, too, with no references to existing similar designs. They may have rejected traditional, proven technology (old-fashioned RSA/DSA, etc.) because of how their product development process works. It would not surprise me at all if this is how it went down.
Here's another recent crypto failure:
HDCP 'master key' supposedly released, unlocks HDTV copy protection permanently (http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/14/hdcp-master-key-supposedly-released-unlocks-hdtv-copy-protect/)
(well not that recent as it was predicted ages ago (http://www.securityfocus.com/news/236) that the thing was broken... oh, noone listened)
I think I remember that the researcher who discovered the issue was either bought off or silenced. Intel probably calculated how much they had already invested into the technology and decided that "security through obscurity" would likely give them enough time to recoup the investment and make enough money on it before the next generation of the interface would go to market. In a way, this paid off, didn't it? We probably would still be waiting for affordable flat screen displays and TVs to become available if Intel hadn't stepped in and standardized the connector technology.
And here's one somewhat older case that was really serious:
Debian OpenSSL Predictable PRNG Toys (http://hdmoore.com/tools/debian-openssl/)
Yup, that one was ugly and epic, too :(
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Actually currently you need to hack the PS3 with the USB dongle. This will change once the disc keys (and any other keys that might be needed) have been recovered. Later on this should change, however.
this is true but waste of time not that l whould but you whould not be able to log on to play online or go on the playstation network as you need to have much earlier version of the playstation 3 firmware
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I misread the title as "PFS3 ...", which I would have found a lot more interesting.
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And this all happened because Sony wanted to stop Linux, and by doing so pissed off hackers. :D
Some top boss in Sony is probably taking his hat and leaving the company by now...
This proves that they need a new business model. At launch, Sony was taking a loss on every console sold and attempted to profit on software. I imagine that's still the case - if they're selling heaps of consoles with no software to go with them, they're in trouble. They've been able to curtail this customer behavior with DRM nonsense and legal threats, but now the floodgates are open.
I'm not usually one to unquestioningly espouse the philosophy that the free market is always right, but in this case, it is.
Sony needs to learn how to respond to consumer demand and how to make a profit on hardware. The result would be a win-win.
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When copied games can be run, console sales go up. Watch the PS3 sales now......
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When copied games can be run, console sales go up. Watch the PS3 sales now......
Which is bad for Sony, ironically.
At least I have water!
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Self signed homebrew is now possible after the PS3's private keys have been cracked.
This is a family-friendly forum. You have received an infraction.
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And this all happened because Sony wanted to stop Linux, and by doing so pissed off hackers. :D
Some top boss in Sony is probably taking his hat and leaving the company by now...
When I first read sony was ending otheros, I thought it would take around 3 months of rage coding for the hackers to enter the deathstar, and now, they're in,
and teams are rampaging their way to the bridge, and control rooms. :hammer:
Guys leaving such huge corporations sometimes have a greatly reduced
carbon footprint. :lol:
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Sony, I Am Disappoint!
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This proves that they need a new business model. At launch, Sony was taking a loss on every console sold and attempted to profit on software. I imagine that's still the case - if they're selling heaps of consoles with no software to go with them, they're in trouble. They've been able to curtail this customer behavior with DRM nonsense and legal threats, but now the floodgates are open.
I'm not usually one to unquestioningly espouse the philosophy that the free market is always right, but in this case, it is.
Sony needs to learn how to respond to consumer demand and how to make a profit on hardware. The result would be a win-win.
+1
problem is though sony won't learn, past sony brushes with drm trouble shows that. Neither will any of the other companies. What they will likely do is lock things down even tighter, which won't help.
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I didnt read all the threads, but "epic fail" seems a bit extreme to me :) All consoles do and will get hacked at some point. There's enough clever people out there with an interest in cracking cosnole security, just for the challenge and notoriety to make sure of that. The fact that its taken so long I'd actually consider quite a success in this day and age. Having said this though, other than through my general video game interest I have no major investment in what happens with ps3 anyay 'cos I dont have one :)
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Yes but usally the hacks are chips are some other hardware mode or casusing and overflow so you can run your own code to take over.
All this is done so you can run un-signed code on the machine.
THis is different, this will enablle people to run there own code on un-modified ps3.
This is an epic fail.
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I didnt read all the threads, but "epic fail" seems a bit extreme to me :)
The term was used by the researchers who presented it at the 27C3. I've just seen the entire presentation, and I can understand why they called it "epic fail".
The security system used by the PS3 is layered, so in theory an adversary would have to break down each layer for the whole system to be compromised. But as the presentation showed, the layer design is either bungled (e.g. the media encryption, the code signing), effectively irrelevant to security (e.g. the Hypervisor, the crypto functions of the dedicated security processor) or so brittle that there is no defense against compromised components (e.g. the bootstrapping process).
A lot of effort went into implementing these security measures, but taken as a whole their effectiveness is reduced to security by obscurity, which is shocking if you are familiar with the technology. This ought to have been designed and implemented much better.
What is "epic" about the whole affair is how much effort Sony spent on this product, how long it took to become marginally profitable, how long Sony plans to keep this product alive, and yet how little leverage is required to undo these efforts. Feet of clay, etc.
All consoles do and will get hacked at some point. There's enough clever people out there with an interest in cracking cosnole security, just for the challenge and notoriety to make sure of that. The fact that its taken so long I'd actually consider quite a success in this day and age.
Actually, how the security system came apart is what makes it an "epic" failure. It did not withstand the attacks because of its resilient architecture: there is no resilience where it would have mattered. It withstood the attacks because of the security by obscurity principle. That is not a success because the barn door is wide open by now. As they say, attacks only get better over time, they never get worse.
All the PS3 devices Sony sold up until now are vulnerable to the kind of exploit that would hurt Sony's business: pirated games. And it may not take long for the exploit to get "better" in that the security of the Blu-Ray device could be compromised. Which would hurt Sony, too, since they pretty much control this technology and benefit from the byzantine technology licensing scheme.
The kind of security Sony's engineers tried to implement in the PS3 can only succeed in buying time before a successful security compromise will have a noticeable impact on the market which the device was created for. What is shocking about the security failure presented at 27C3 is both in how inadequate the security architecture of the platform actually is, and in how little time it actually bought Sony. They have barely succeeded at making the PS3 profitable, and the jury is still out on whether the Blu-Ray platform will ever be profitable before other technology succeeds in eclipsing it (e.g. online streaming).
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Self signed homebrew is now possible after the PS3's private keys have been cracked.
AROS for PS3 anyone? :D
http://psgroove.com/content.php?581-Sony-s-PS3-Security-is-Epic-Fail-Videos-Within&
I guess we will also see the calls for OS4 to be ported now that the PS3 has been cracked? ;-)
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The term was used by the researchers who presented it at the 27C3. I've just seen the entire presentation, and I can understand why they called it "epic fail".
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:lol: By removing otheros, sony poured gasoline on themselves,
then challenged the linux coders to a duel using flamethrowers. :roflmao:
Can't get much more epic than that!
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What is "epic" about the whole affair is how much effort Sony spent on this product, how long it took to become marginally profitable, how long Sony plans to keep this product alive, and yet how little leverage is required to undo these efforts. Feet of clay, etc.
What really surprised me about this was that it's taken so long. If you've ever dealt with the Sony PS3 API's you'd see what an absolute house of cards it is. Not to mention and flaky piece of crap ;)
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I have to say I dont like the attitude on here, of them coders and off other sites towards Sony, they make the ps3 its their product so they get to decide what should and shouldn't be allowed on it, if you don't like it, dont support them and get your self a cheap Linux box for all your home brew you could ask for.
One the main reason I have not got a apple product, like the iphone or an ipad is because of its controlling nature and not allow flash and other things, shore I could buy their product and get it hacked to allow me to use some of this stuff, but then I'm supporting the company that I don't really agree with. Thats why I'm much more interested in company that are a lot more open like http://www.fungp.com/ and supporting them.
I'm pretty sure the only reason that OtherOS was removed was due to hack made with that option being open, so they had to close it off, but once one way is found around the hack usually loads more follow so I'm not surprised its happened, I just dont agree with the way the hacker are spinning it that the only reason they did it was due to Sony pulling linux support.
Still at least they got blue ray to protect it kind off, as to download 50gb games will take ages and the extra expense of blue ray still make ps3 bit of a problem for pirates, which I'm happy about.
Everyone says that piracy doest do any harm to these big multimillion pound companies and they deserver it, but everyone forgets about the middle men, I mean recently where I live Blockbuster has closed down and gaming, cds and dvd sections are disappearing off the shelves, why partly because of things going digital, mp3 etc, plus online shopping but I think a bigger reason for it happing so quick is because more and more people are pirating games and movies.
I also believe its why so many publisher gave up on the Amiga more quickly because piracy was pretty bad on the Amiga, I mean you had all the tools to make copies of software with every Amiga sold.
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Everyone says that priatcey doest do any harm to these big multimillion pound companies and they deserver it, but everyone forgets about the middle men
They do deserve it. Every bit of it. And the middle men are $%#@. I'm glad they're going bust.
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Makes sense and is good if it leads to PS3 with 3TB HD full of games and in game reset enabled on joypads. I have missed this functionality on these consoles,
XBOX established this level of usage, aka level 1 - unlocked and ready to blow.
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I have to say I dont like the attitude on here, of them coders and off other sites towards Sony, they make the ps3 its their product so they get to decide what should and shouldn't be allowed on it, if you don't like it, dont support them and get your self a cheap Linux box for all your home brew you could ask for.
One the main reason I have not got a apple product, like the iphone or an ipad is because of its controlling nature and not allow flash and other things, shore I could buy their product and get it hacked to allow me to use some of this stuff, but then I'm supporting the company that I don't really agree with. Thats why I'm much more interested in company that are a lot more open like http://www.fungp.com/ and supporting them.
I'm pretty sure the only reason that OtherOS was removed was due to hack made with that option being open, so they had to close it off, but once one way is found around the hack usually loads more follow so I'm not surprised its happened, I just dont agree with the way the hacker are spinning it that the only reason they did it was due to Sony pulling linux support.
Still at least they got blue ray to protect it kind off, as to download 50gb games will take ages and the extra expense of blue ray still make ps3 bit of a problem for pirates, which I'm happy about.
Everyone says that piracy doest do any harm to these big multimillion pound companies and they deserver it, but everyone forgets about the middle men, I mean recently where I live Blockbuster has closed down and gaming, cds and dvd sections are disappearing off the shelves, why partly because of things going digital, mp3 etc, plus online shopping but I think a bigger reason for it happing so quick is because more and more people are pirating games and movies.
I also believe its why so many publisher gave up on the Amiga more quickly because piracy was pretty bad on the Amiga, I mean you had all the tools to make copies of software with every Amiga sold.
I actually I understand and acknowledge the principles your discussing. And I do believe that creators of a product deserve to be paid for their work.
But I still find it a little offensive that a manufacturer would think that once they've sold me something, that they still have control over how I use it.
I can understand Sony's concerns, but what about people who bought the PS3 for the 'Other OS' option and then later had that feature removed from a item already in their possession? In a way, I view that as deceptive and a form of theft.
Further, it has never been my intent to use an unlock PS# console to hack or run pirated software. Rather, I would orefer full access to the hardware when running an alternate OS rather than have that access intentionally crippled by Sony's restrictions placed via the hypervisor.
This is a curious issue, Yes its Sony's intellectual propert, but once I buy it, if I don't seek to use it to disseminate pirated software, do I not have the right to do with my own property whatever I see fit?
Apparently thanks to the Digital Mellenium Copyright Act I do not. Nor is it legal anymore to transcode cds to MP3, backup software, or do many other things that were taken for granted as fair use once I bought a prpduct up until recently.
Frankly, this is why I don't own a PS3 or any recent Apple product nor do I intend to purchase hardware or software from these companies.
Remember, it was Sony via BMG that was installing rootkit software onto people computers when they used their audio CDs up until a few years ago who asking permission to install software first. This lead to a class action suiy that Sony lost. I know, I received new copies of all my Sony/BMG CDs because of this and was awarded several additionasl CDs.
'
Sony's obcession with DRM and copyright protection goes overboard far too many times and its easy to side with those poised against their interests.
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What really surprised me about this was that it's taken so long. If you've ever dealt with the Sony PS3 API's you'd see what an absolute house of cards it is. Not to mention and flaky piece of crap ;)
I guess if you're paying for the privilege of having Sony grant you permission to publish your software on their grand entertainment device, you don't want to jeopardize your chances of selling the product by breaking the non-disclosure-agreement you signed with these guys ;)
I can't say I know how the APIs look like. Given that they are not for intended to be used by a large number of developers, Sony can probably get away with anything. Sony is going to make money on the end product (games and whatnot), and not on the SDKs. So the latter might as well stink. And the industry certainly did complain about the programming model used by the CELL.
I own a 2nd generation PS3 (the fat one) and I've seen my share of poor ports of AAA titles. You don't get that kind of poor quality software unless the API were something of a let-down.
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They do deserve it. Every bit of it. And the middle men are xxxx. I'm glad they're going bust.
If da man don't make da profit, da man don't make da product.
It's a simple rule. The products we like aren't there because we like them. They are there because they make a profit and they tell us we like them.
I wonder if a US crowd started selling pirated Guinness to the detriment of the local industry how defensive of trademark and copyright laws we might become.....
There are plenty of 7 YO laptops around to install linux on anyway.
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I have to say I dont like the attitude on here, of them coders and off other sites towards Sony, they make the ps3 its their product so they get to decide what should and shouldn't be allowed on it, if you don't like it, dont support them and get your self a cheap Linux box for all your home brew you could ask for.
I do not entirely disagree with this notion, but the situation is loaded. If the only way to do make this kind of business work revolves around taking away rights from the consumer (DMCA and whatever pressure was applied to other countries in the free world on behalf of industries such as Sony represents, in order to make something very much like it happen overseas) then something is wrong.
I'm not saying that voting with your wallet is the wrong approach, in principle. But even if you don't care about the PS3 (it's an entertainment device: you don't have to have one to lead a satisfied life), there are still the side-effects caused by the legal machinations without which a product such as the PS3 would have to survive on its technical merits alone. This sort of thing is essentially unjust.
One the main reason I have not got a apple product, like the iphone or an ipad is because of its controlling nature and not allow flash and other things, shore I could buy their product and get it hacked to allow me to use some of this stuff, but then I'm supporting the company that I don't really agree with. Thats why I'm much more interested in company that are a lot more open like http://www.fungp.com/ and supporting them.
Apple has always worked in this manner once they managed to crack the mass market. Look at the original 1984 Macintosh operating system design. If management had gotten its way, it would have been even more restricting than it always was. Shades of the past: the same philosophy came back with the iPhone, the iPad and the App Store.
Vote with your wallet. I'd be glad to do so, but four years ago the choices open to somebody who needed to replace his laptop were so dire that only Apple had something useful to offer. As long as they ship a POSIX operating system on their computers, with tools to develop software for it, not everything is lost.
I'm pretty sure the only reason that OtherOS was removed was due to hack made with that option being open, so they had to close it off, but once one way is found around the hack usually loads more follow so I'm not surprised its happened, I just dont agree with the way the hacker are spinning it that the only reason they did it was due to Sony pulling linux support.
Dropping Linux support (it wasn't even working that well, on account of the Hypervisor squeezing the life out of that sorry framebuffer display device) didn't really solve anything. I bet you five Euros that the decision to drop Linux support came about because it was the most cost-effective short term solution. The long term solution would have been to fortify the system's security foundations, which obviously didn't work out so well.
Still at least they got blue ray to protect it kind off, as to download 50gb games will take ages and the extra expense of blue ray still make ps3 bit of a problem for pirates, which I'm happy about.
Everyone says that piracy doest do any harm to these big multimillion pound companies and they deserver it, but everyone forgets about the middle men, I mean recently where I live Blockbuster has closed down and gaming, cds and dvd sections are disappearing off the shelves, why partly because of things going digital, mp3 etc, plus online shopping but I think a bigger reason for it happing so quick is because more and more people are pirating games and movies.
I don't think so. The cost of delivering the service has changed profoundly with the availability of cheaper broadband internet connections. Netflix rolled up Blockbuster, and although their business may not last, it's going to be very tough to compete against video on demand with a selection of games and movies stocked at a local brownstone building in every major city.
I expect the studios to eventually cut out the middle man and go into the business providers such as Netflix currently run for them.
I also believe its why so many publisher gave up on the Amiga more quickly because piracy was pretty bad on the Amiga, I mean you had all the tools to make copies of software with every Amiga sold.
The Amiga had a hard time making a dent in the market in the US. And while it was something of a power in Europe, there was no global market you could make much of a business in the way it is possible today. The rise of the IBM PC compatible and eventually the games consoles finally did the Amiga in. That and Commodore's lack of interest in their own platform.
The piracy angle was part of that meltdown, but it was not the only burning fuse.
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I have to say I dont like the attitude on here, of them coders and off other sites towards Sony, they make the ps3 its their product so they get to decide what should and shouldn't be allowed on it, if you don't like it, dont support them and get your self a cheap Linux box for all your home brew you could ask for.
One the main reason I have not got a apple product, like the iphone or an ipad is because of its controlling nature and not allow flash and other things, shore I could buy their product and get it hacked to allow me to use some of this stuff, but then I'm supporting the company that I don't really agree with. Thats why I'm much more interested in company that are a lot more open like http://www.fungp.com/ and supporting them.
I'm pretty sure the only reason that OtherOS was removed was due to hack made with that option being open, so they had to close it off, but once one way is found around the hack usually loads more follow so I'm not surprised its happened, I just dont agree with the way the hacker are spinning it that the only reason they did it was due to Sony pulling linux support.
Still at least they got blue ray to protect it kind off, as to download 50gb games will take ages and the extra expense of blue ray still make ps3 bit of a problem for pirates, which I'm happy about.
Everyone says that piracy doest do any harm to these big multimillion pound companies and they deserver it, but everyone forgets about the middle men, I mean recently where I live Blockbuster has closed down and gaming, cds and dvd sections are disappearing off the shelves, why partly because of things going digital, mp3 etc, plus online shopping but I think a bigger reason for it happing so quick is because more and more people are pirating games and movies.
I agree with all this. The standard BS argument is:"I bought it so I can do what I want with it". No. You bought hardware plus an agreement on what you could and could not do with that hardware. Sony has the right to take steps that ensure the hardware is used as it intended, even if that means to add or remove features-like support for OtherOS. You don't agree? Don't buy the hardware.
BTW all those up in arms about Linux support being removed is just a red herring: the % would be miniscule, there are cheaper an better ways to run Linux, and if you don't upgrade the firmware, you can still do it, but then you won't get Sony's FREE online service, but why would that matter, you can run Linux, right?
Yeah, and our Blockbuster is gone too.
I also believe its why so many publisher gave up on the Amiga more quickly because piracy was pretty bad on the Amiga, I mean you had all the tools to make copies of software with every Amiga sold.
Amiga was and is a dirty word to many software houses for this very reason. The ratio I've read is anywhere from 10:1 to 20:1 Pirated:Genuine. It was even happening when the platform was on its last legs and the big names had left, and all we had was the odd bedroom programming team, or small independent programmers publishing on their own or through small publishers.
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I find it funny that people are all blaming Sony for the removal of the OtherOS feature and not the people who have clearly misused it and did more with it than they where meant too, there the people to blame for this. Sony didn't have to included otherOS as a feature at all, but most likely thought it would help research projects, military applications, schools and a few geeks to use the PS3 in a different manner and do more than just play games, I commend Sony for attempting it. But clearly the end users cant be trusted with a feature if its going be misused.
Anyone who has a fat ps3 can still I think do a complete restart to factory settings and restore the otherOS feature, you just miss out on the psn and some of the recent games that require the new firmware which I think was an acceptable compromises. If your still not happy you should be able to get a full refund due to the change of the End user Agreement.
Dont get me wrong I don't defend Sony, or any other company for its copyright protection methods, but I understand its a necessary evil for them to try and protect their work, I do think they go after the wrong people and just target general consumer with DRM, removing feature and other copyright crap that just doest work and usally result in the hack hardware or software being better than the actual product, examples:- no need to be online all the time to just play a offline game, no need for the disks to be in the drive doing nothing, no need to phone up or regs all your personal details with these companies etc.. They should really be going after the people who are uploading the stuff and breaking/hacking there products and not effecting the general users.
Its sad that MGM gone bust and ok a lot was down to bad management but according to a few statics the most pirated film is Quantum of Solace so thanks folks for no more bonds. Plus a lot of cinema's where on the verge of being closed down its only thanks to the success or 3d in the cinema that a lot have stayed open. Again the middle men are affected, the big exeecs and Hollywood stars with their millions are the last to be effected just the poor sod who work in the shops, or at the cinema.
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I think it's pretty exciting when you think of the possibilities.
I don't have much intereset in running linux on arbitrary hardware, but the potential for homebrew apps and emulation are greater on the PS3 than any other console.
Hopefully it will be possible at some point to play new games without being forced to update to the newest firmware.
I've never been comfortable with the idea that the manufacturer can force updates in order to play new games, although in fairness Sony's updates have been less drastic than Microsoft's in general.
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Quantum of Solace was crap compared to Casino Royale. Plus it was other bad films that brought them down. Not piracy. I think you are a troll.
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That is I think the first time I been called a troll
:banana::banana::banana:
Now I know I'm part of the Amiga scene!
This what i think they should be doing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALZZx1xmAzg&feature=fvsr :)
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I have to say I dont like the attitude on here, of them coders and off other sites towards Sony, they make the ps3 its their product so they get to decide what should and shouldn't be allowed on it, if you don't like it, dont support them and get your self a cheap Linux box for all your home brew you could ask for.
I think the biggest irritant about all this is that Sony marketed PS3 as a Linux machine for so long, and then removed it from the older boxes that claimed to work with Linux when purchased. Like they said in the video, no one really bothered much with hacking the PS3 until Sony took away something that they bought it for, and was part of the machine when they bought it. When Sony (illegally?) removed an advertized feature, they're just trying to get it back. I see no foul in that.
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I agree with all this. The standard BS argument is:"I bought it so I can do what I want with it". No. You bought hardware plus an agreement on what you could and could not do with that hardware. Sony has the right to take steps that ensure the hardware is used as it intended, even if that means to add or remove features-like support for OtherOS. You don't agree? Don't buy the hardware.
I'm surprised by such sentiment in an Amiga forum. We're the guys that put our motherboards into tower cases, doing a lot of work to make it happen. We have build yourself CPU accelerators, added PAL/NTSC switches to single mode computers, there's CHIP RAM addons like MegaChip, video flickerfixers like Indivision, and PCI busses like Prometheus and Mediator. If we're supposed to f-ing leave stuff the way it came from the factory, then there's a heck of a boatload of wrongdoing in our entire history.
If you want me to abide by some agreement to not tinker with the things I buy, then put it on the OUTSIDE of the friggin box so I know it before I pay up. If I don't get an opportunity to know such things until after I've paid, sorry, I really don't feel very strongly bound by it.
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Makes sense and is good if it leads to PS3 with 3TB HD full of games and in game reset enabled on joypads. I have missed this functionality on these consoles,
XBOX established this level of usage, aka level 1 - unlocked and ready to blow.
why you need reset?
all you do is press the ps3 button on the joypad then you can enter the xmb...
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I have to say I dont like the attitude on here, of them coders and off other sites towards Sony, they make the ps3 its their product so they get to decide what should and shouldn't be allowed on it, if you don't like it, dont support them and get your self a cheap Linux box for all your home brew you could ask for.
I'm on the side of the hackers. The reason is, if I purchase a piece of hardware, then I expect to be able to use it as I see fit. I don't expect to be told what I can and can't do with it.
I understand your main argument, which is that the manufacturer has a right to restrict the features that thier product offers and that if we don't like it we should vote with our wallets and buy something else, rather than buy their product anyway and then keep moaning about it.
That's a good argument if you're talking about a company like Apple, because their products have always been very restrictive. Their behaviour in this respect is well established.
However, that's not what we're dealing with here. In this case, Sony actually offered the "OtherOS" option as a feature when customers bought the machine, and in fact they touted it as a feature as well. Then, after the consumers had bought the machine, they decided they were going to take the feature away. Even if I'd bought a PS3 and never used the OtherOS feature, I'd still be annoyed by this. Why? Well, it's a little bit like buying a Ferrari that does 200MPH and then all of a sudden a Ferrari send the car a software update that restricts it to 70MPH. Sure, you probably would never have done 200MPH anyway, but who are they to take away a feature you paid for?
That's my opinion. Sony were asking for trouble when they took away the OtherOS feature, because the only people who used this feature were hackers. And, so, when they took it away, the only people they annoyed were the hackers. What did they expect to happen?
By the way, when I say "hackers", I mean the true definition of hacker. I don't mean someone who breaks software for the purpose of piracy (cracker), I mean someone who enjoys finding out how things work, tinkering with them, and modifying them to suit his/her own purpose. There's nothing wrong with that, and I rather support it. Sony probably didn't want their console being reverse engineered, that's understandable, but if they hadn't taken the OtherOS feature away it probably wouldn't have been. Pretty much the only reason the other consoles got hacked was because other hardware/software enthusiasts wanted to run Linux on them.
Serves Sony right in my opinion.
AH.
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I'm surprised by such sentiment in an Amiga forum. We're the guys that put our motherboards into tower cases, doing a lot of work to make it happen. We have build yourself CPU accelerators, added PAL/NTSC switches to single mode computers, there's CHIP RAM addons like MegaChip, video flickerfixers like Indivision, and PCI busses like Prometheus and Mediator. If we're supposed to f-ing leave stuff the way it came from the factory, then there's a heck of a boatload of wrongdoing in our entire history.
If you want me to abide by some agreement to not tinker with the things I buy, then put it on the OUTSIDE of the friggin box so I know it before I pay up. If I don't get an opportunity to know such things until after I've paid, sorry, I really don't feel very strongly bound by it.
I totally agree with this. Hacking stuff is the Amiga way, and as I was brought up with Amiga computers, that's the way I am. That's why I can't stand to use Apple products.
If it weren't for talented hackers, we'd never have enjoyed all of the brilliant aftermarket products that we've seen for the Amiga over the years. That's what being an Amiga user is all about!
AH.
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Its sad that MGM gone bust and ok a lot was down to bad management but according to a few statics the most pirated film is Quantum of Solace so thanks folks for no more bonds. Plus a lot of cinema's where on the verge of being closed down its only thanks to the success or 3d in the cinema that a lot have stayed open. Again the middle men are affected, the big exeecs and Hollywood stars with their millions are the last to be effected just the poor sod who work in the shops, or at the cinema.
Sony's involvement in the big mess that is MGM is at best tangential to the PS3. Their decision to throw in with the consortium which picked up the cadaver of MGM was largely seen as a way to garner support for the Blu-Ray medium. Great idea: nobody saw MGM's sole surviving asset (the huge film library, with most of the good stuff gone to Time Warner more than 20 years ago) as particularly useful anyway. The move probably just helped to stop Microsoft from grabbing this junk.
Sony's an entertainment conglomerate, and today that helps to diversify investments when some of the company's branches are not doing so well. The part of the company that develops and produces motion pictures maybe has it hardest, because this business is the most difficult to project. Big movies with large investments can tank, and then you've got to rely upon secondary income to recoup some of the loss, e.g. DVD sales or soundtrack sales.
As its worst, such a conglomerate can produce fierce company-internal infighting. It was the Sony Music branch which threw in its weight to keep the branch which made electronic music playback devices (their version of the iPod) stick to the proprietary ATRAC music compression scheme, thereby elegantly missing out on just about the entire MP3 playback device business. That's epic fail, too.
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The sony beancounters can calculate the damages, and recoup them
by selling only value-added PS3s, perhaps a movie subscription/games combo,
some new twist that won't bump the price enough to defeat sales.
They could also roll out an additional computer version of the console, with a full custom linux install. It was mainly a tax dodge to limit computer functionality in the
beginning, but if PS3 is 60% into its half-life, it's time to move on anyway.
They'll be lucky to dodge class-action suits due to tampering with otheros.
Such tamperings on cell phones gives phone service contract signers a legal out.
PS3 won't be much different in a courtroom. Sony will tread lightly, even if they
shout, and wave a big styrofoam stick.
Fun times! :)
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Shouldn't it be "epic failure", not "epic fail"?
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I totally agree with this. Hacking stuff is the Amiga way, and as I was brought up with Amiga computers, that's the way I am. That's why I can't stand to use Apple products.
If it weren't for talented hackers, we'd never have enjoyed all of the brilliant aftermarket products that we've seen for the Amiga over the years. That's what being an Amiga user is all about!
AH.
The last time the owners of Amiga made any money would have been, oh I dunno, about 1992.
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The last time the owners of Amiga made any money would have been, oh I dunno, about 1992.
That doesn't really contradict anything he said.
He's on to something though.
An open system will continue to grow and develop in all sorts of interesting directions. A closed system will survive only as long as its developers make it so.
Its always funny to me though that the microsofties will talk all day long about how apple is "closed off" and how they don't want that.
Apple has an open source version of OS X. Microsoft never dared to do this.
People cry about ipods and iphones being locked down (though I can use my ipod fine on linux) but are apparently fine with 360's and kinects being locked (remember, microsoft threatening legal action when the kinect was being hacked?)
If people somehow think that microsoft is the saviour of open computer standards and apple is somehow the devil, I am inclined to believe they are either ignorant, undereducated or criminally insane.
Amiga was and is a dirty word to many software houses for this very reason. The ratio I've read is anywhere from 10:1 to 20:1 Pirated:Genuine. It was even happening when the platform was on its last legs and the big names had left, and all we had was the odd bedroom programming team, or small independent programmers publishing on their own or through small publishers.
This was on the last page, but this isn't much different from what PC game developers are facing today. For OS and applications, piracy rates in north america (the lowest region globally) are estimated at 40%. Games generally estimated at 90%, even in cases like the humble indie bundle, where you could pay as little as a damn dollar.
It has nothing to do with this or that platform. Rather, people as a general rule:
A: Want things for free
B: Feels they are entitled to said things for free, and can make up any number of excuses to do so (trust me, I've used my share)
C: Don't give a shit about the developers
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Shouldn't it be "epic failure", not "epic fail"?
The text-message vernacular prefers one syllable words whenever poss
ible :)
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That doesn't really contradict anything he said.
He's on to something though.
An open system will continue to grow and develop in all sorts of interesting directions. A closed system will survive only as long as its developers make it so.
Be that as it may, the fact is the PS3 is made by a private manufacturer who owns the IP to the hardware, and the software that makes the hardware do things, (or the software that allows programmers to write software that make the hardware do things), and part of the purchase contract is that you can use it for it certain things. I bet Sony has no objection to people writing homebrew or running Linux, if it weren't for the fcat that these activities will be used to do things that deprive Sony and its third party develpers of legitimate income. Not "might be", but WILL BE.
This was on the last page, but this isn't much different from what PC game developers are facing today. For OS and applications, piracy rates in north america (the lowest region globally) are estimated at 40%. Games generally estimated at 90%, even in cases like the humble indie bundle, where you could pay as little as a damn dollar.
It has nothing to do with this or that platform. Rather, people as a general rule:
A: Want things for free
B: Feels they are entitled to said things for free, and can make up any number of excuses to do so (trust me, I've used my share)
C: Don't give a shit about the developers
Ditto. Which is why I'm on Sony's side. I work, I get paid. Sony's engineers/third party developers work, but they don't deserve to be paid?
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While I don't quite understand what this threads about, having never bought any of these consoles. It seems to me that when you purchase one you are prevented by the manufacturers from using the machine as how you see fit.
If that's the case then you'd be crazy to buy one in the first place and if you didn't know about such a restriction before you bought it and it doesn't clearly state anything on the packaging, then I'd demand my money back or Trading Standards and my MP would have to get busy... (again...) :)
Yes, but people don't. They hack the machine, use it to deprive Sony and its deveopers a legitimate income, and then pull out this "denial of freedom" BS argument to justify what they are doing.
In Aus BTW, you have no consumer right for the product to do whatecer you want, only that the manufacturer has a duty to make the product do what its supposed to.
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Be that as it may, the fact is the PS3 is made by a private manufacturer who owns the IP to the hardware, and the software that makes the hardware do things, (or the software that allows programmers to write software that make the hardware do things), and part of the purchase contract is that you can use it for it certain things.
There is no purchase contract. If there was, this wouldn't be an issue.
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Be that as it may, the fact is the PS3 is made by a private manufacturer who owns the IP to the hardware, and the software that makes the hardware do things, (or the software that allows programmers to write software that make the hardware do things), and part of the purchase contract is that you can use it for it certain things. I bet Sony has no objection to people writing homebrew or running Linux, if it weren't for the fcat that these activities will be used to do things that deprive Sony and its third party develpers of legitimate income. Not "might be", but WILL BE.
I havent followed it too closely on the interwebs but it seemed that the concerns were that this was an advertised feature that was later retracted.
Thats a bit of a different concern I think.
Ditto. Which is why I'm on Sony's side. I work, I get paid. Sony's engineers/third party developers work, but they don't deserve to be paid?
Agree completely. Thats why I wised up and stopped.
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Well few points, firstly comparing a amiga to ps3 hacking is a little bit of a stretch, ones a computer and so is largely regarded that you should be allowed to run any software you like and ones a game console, where its largely regarded that the manufacture can dictate what is and isnt allowed on the console.
Another point is on every amiga sold there should be a sticker that reads something like if broken voids the warranty, and when commodore-amiga where active they did try and prevent hacks, I believe I remember reading that they worked with Ocean to develop something you plug into your joystick port (might of been for Robocop3) that would scramble the controls if the game was a copy, but within like a week it was hacked.
Plus some of the big hacks and work arounds only came about after commodore demised and it looked like companies like gateway was'nt that bothered what happened to Amiga so where necessary. Plus again this is a computer not a games console.
Look at the end of the day the biggest problem I have with this story is the way they are trying to spin it that they only hacked it for linux and for homebrew gaming, I'm sorry but for £300 you paid for you ps3 you could of got a bare basic pc and have a much better linux experiences, all the home-brew you want with out the risk of braking the law, braking the hardware or having to jump around hoops to get the stuff working.
All I'm trying to say is why are these people trying to write programs for the ps3 when if they came to our community they be more than welcome to do what they liked, in fact I love these coders to come on board and show us what a xmos chip on the x1000 could do, I'm sure aeon would welcome them etc, a load of other companies would also welcome them to do what they like with thire device but no instead they go where there not welcome.
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Yes, but people don't. They hack the machine, use it to deprive Sony and its deveopers a legitimate income, and then pull out this "denial of freedom" BS argument to justify what they are doing.
In Aus BTW, you have no consumer right for the product to do whatecer you want, only that the manufacturer has a duty to make the product do what its supposed to.
I agree that piracy is unfair. I also conceed that piracy will now be a possibility due to the hacking work that has been done.
However, I will argue that the only reason the hacking work was done was because Sony took away a previously advertised feature that allowed users to run Linux on the system. The hackers don't want piracy, all they want is to be able to run their Linux OS on it.
Mind you, one thing I've learned about forum debates is that they are always pointless, no matter what the topic or who is right or wrong. The thing is, nobody will ever allow themselves to read someone else's point of view and be convinced otherwise.
I'm not suggesting it should be you being convinced otherwise here, rather than me, but in forum debates nobody ever considers someone else's point of view. We all just defend our own points of view repeatedly.
So that's why I tend to stay away from forum debates. But this one sucked me in!
:)
AH.
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In Aus BTW, you have no consumer right for the product to do whatecer you want, only that the manufacturer has a duty to make the product do what its supposed to.
The product is supposed to run Linux.
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The product is supposed to run Linux.
If I was Mr. Sony, I'd cut a deal to reinstate otheros permanently, and fund
'many' summer-of-code projects, in return for not releasing the goods into the wild.
Maybe need to sweeten the pot with hypervisor access too, since PS4 is X years away still, and full 3D access on PS3 would take a while to code, so it might not
hamper new sales in the interim.
But maybe it's too late. :)
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If I was Mr. Sony, I'd cut a deal to reinstate otheros permanently, and fund
'many' summer-of-code projects, in return for not releasing the goods into the wild.
Maybe need to sweeten the pot with hypervisor access too, since PS4 is X years away still, and full 3D access on PS3 would take a while to code, so it might not
hamper new sales in the interim.
But maybe it's too late. :)
its to late for the ps3 now, its hacked. my guess there will be no otheros and more tighten security for the ps4. sony said that the ps3 will have a 10 years life spam commercially before a new ps. so its now 5 years left...
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I agree that piracy is unfair. I also conceed that piracy will now be a possibility due to the hacking work that has been done.
However, I will argue that the only reason the hacking work was done was because Sony took away a previously advertised feature that allowed users to run Linux on the system. The hackers don't want piracy, all they want is to be able to run their Linux OS on it.
What concerns me is that the PS still does run Linux, but not if you update to the latest firmware, and they no longer get access to the FREE Sony network. So IF their motivation is to run Linux then they still can.
IMO its just a smokescreen to hide that the real motivation is to run pirated software. As has been said already if you REALLY wanted to run Linux, then there are cheaper, simpler and better ways to do it than a PS3.
I don't believe for one moment that the hackers did it get back at Sony for removing OtherOS: they were going to do it anyway.
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The product is supposed to run Linux.
i don't know what the original terms of this were in terms of for how long or the support offered by Sony for OtherOS was, but the PS3 is primarily a games console and this is why the vast majority of people buy it.
Those people who did buy it to specifically run OtherOS would probably have a case in that the PS3 doesn't do what its supposed to, but warranties/damages would be likely be limited to a refund on the purchase price, and those buyers would have that option to return their PS3's and get their money back. BUT I BET THEY WON'T.
Just like the iPhone reception issues: In Aus, Apple said if you're not happy with it, we'll give you a refund http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/iphone/apple-offers-free-cases-refunds-to-iphone-4-owners-20100717-10ell.html. But most people didn't, because the thing is so damned good, Apple basically called the bluff of everyone who wanted "compensation"..I bet this is what would happen with those who want the PS3 to run OtherOS. And Sony know this too.
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i don't know what the original terms of this were in terms of for how long or the support offered by Sony for OtherOS was, but the PS3 is primarily a games console and this is why the vast majority of people buy it.
Those people who did buy it to specifically run OtherOS would probably have a case in that the PS3 doesn't do what its supposed to, but warranties/damages would be likely be limited to a refund on the purchase price, and those buyers would have that option to return their PS3's and get their money back. BUT I BET THEY WON'T.
Just like the iPhone reception issues: In Aus, Apple said if you're not happy with it, we'll give you a refund http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/iphone/apple-offers-free-cases-refunds-to-iphone-4-owners-20100717-10ell.html. But most people didn't, because the thing is so damned good, Apple basically called the bluff of everyone who wanted "compensation"..I bet this is what would happen with those who want the PS3 to run OtherOS. And Sony know this too.
sony have earned their money in a 5 year none piracy periode. with games like call of duty-black ops that earned over $1 billion in less than a month when its first was released. piracy isnt a concern anymore. even when ps3 are hacked sony and game companies will sell games but maybe not earn that much anymore... i guess everything is a loss if you cant top the earnings you have had before... its called greed i say, so i welcome piracy at this stage of ps3.
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i don't know what the original terms of this were in terms of for how long or the support offered by Sony for OtherOS was, but the PS3 is primarily a games console and this is why the vast majority of people buy it.
Those people who did buy it to specifically run OtherOS would probably have a case in that the PS3 doesn't do what its supposed to, but warranties/damages would be likely be limited to a refund on the purchase price, and those buyers would have that option to return their PS3's and get their money back. BUT I BET THEY WON'T.
Just like the iPhone reception issues: In Aus, Apple said if you're not happy with it, we'll give you a refund http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/iphone/apple-offers-free-cases-refunds-to-iphone-4-owners-20100717-10ell.html. But most people didn't, because the thing is so damned good, Apple basically called the bluff of everyone who wanted "compensation"..I bet this is what would happen with those who want the PS3 to run OtherOS. And Sony know this too.
I think the issue is they removed a feature available at the time of sale. For PS3 Slim owners they have no such obligation because it was never sold with it.
All this hack does is give you pirating abilities though. At best only PS3 Fat users can get a refund.
And to be honest they did it because unlike Microsoft and Nintendo who weren't bleeding money with every console sale (due to either low build quality or low tech anyway respectively) they needed people to be buying it to fund profits from game sales. Plenty of scientific institutes bought PS3 and used Linux on it for massively parallel applications (like folding at home on steroids).
As others have said, it's a piracy issue (games and blu-ray) and well it's not really a great Linux box...and until someone writes drivers for all aspects of PS3 hardware properly for a Linux distro it's not that interesting to me.
I'd rather not damage my ability to woop people on WRC or F1 2010 online to run some crap version of an OS on a games console :)
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The product is supposed to run Linux.
Yes, so by law in Aus everyone could return their PS3 and get their money back 'cos they can't run Linux.
Stand clear for the stampede...........Naught but the sound of crickets chirping....
I don't understand the big deal in running Linux on a games machine..?
Sorry to tell the Linux fan boys but if Linux was freely available on the PS3 nothing would change. Being able to run Linux on a PS3 won't make Linux miraculously popular.
Nor would it unleash a tide of spectacular software to the PS3 scene.
Let it play games. There's nothing wrong with playing games.
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I really don't grasp the Sony defenders here. The point is that Sony wasted alot of money and effort to secure the PS3, but failed miserably, the security system turns out to be mostly smoke and mirrors, security through obscurity. So who's fault is that? None other than Sony's - THEY fcuked it up.
You cannot prevent people from hacking hardware, that's just nonsense, people will do whatever they like with the hardware out there, and if you as a company cannot cope with that, well boo hoo.
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All this hack does is give you pirating abilities though.
I disagree.
Did XBMC == piracy for Xbox?
Does Linux == piracy?
Do DIY games == piracy?
Would an AROS port == piracy?
This stuff does make piracy possible, yes, but it's not "All" there is.
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I disagree.
Did XBMC == piracy for Xbox?
Does Linux == piracy?
Do DIY games == piracy?
Would an AROS port == piracy?
This stuff does make piracy possible, yes, but it's not "All" there is.
It simple, distributing the software key is an unauthorized use of Sony IP.
You may see an open/freely disbuted OS like Linux us this hack, but it really unlikely AOS4 or MorphOS would be ported to this platform without the direct approval of Spny (whether the hack exists or not) as this would open up Hyperion or the MorphOS development team to legal actions.
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It simple, distributing the software key is an unauthorized use of Sony IP.
You may see an open/freely disbuted OS like Linux us this hack, but it really unlikely AOS4 or MorphOS would be ported to this platform without the direct approval of Spny (whether the hack exists or not) as this would open up Hyperion or the MorphOS development team to legal actions.
AOS4 & MorphOS are pretty much out of the picture here thats for sure. but there is maybe a tiny hope for AROS, who knows.....
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It simple, distributing the software key is an unauthorized use of Sony IP.
No need to distribute any keys - try again.
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Gonna chime in on the piracy part. People tend to think that it's a non-issue and that in some cases piracy even "helps" sales. There's _sometimes_ a grain of truth but it's not all of the time or all of the cases.
We've had projects canned and titles cancelled during development for the PC simply because the piracy rate has become so problematic that you might have most people _playing_ your game on the PC, but you've got the most people that have _bought_ your game on the consoles. As a result the publishers simply pull the plug on the PC version entirely.
It doesn't lose the publisher much revenue but for the developer they can have just lost an entire platforms profits and royalties. Of course the PC version can often have a much longer shelf life vs consoles so now you've also got to rely entirely on making your profits and royalties on the launch week of your game... so hopefully there's nothing like Gran Tourismo or something launching at the same time or you'll get literally NOTHING.
So, I think Sony were a bit crap when they removed the OtherOS option, especially as it still listed it on the boxes when the machines were on sale! Removing functionality that people have bought your hardware to use is dishonest I think.
However this does enable piracy, it will mean that it happens more now, and I have been personally affected by piracy in the past. In fact I'm redundant at the moment due to the games industry going through a lot of strife right now so I'm not keen on that side of things.
Dunno where I'm going with all this :) just bored and hungover on Jan 1st I guess!
Happy New Year everyone!
Andy
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Sheesh, what's wrong with you people - piracy is totally irrelevant here.
Are you guys suggesting that people should stop tinkering with devices because it may make piracy possible? That's just doesn't make any sense at all. The point is that Sony messed up and now have to face the consequences, which is that their oh so protected plattform is now unwrapped and open, and this is not because someone did anything illegal, but because of their own incompetence. That's all, really.
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Are you guys suggesting that people should stop tinkering with devices
No. as I have said there are loads of companies and devices out their that want people to make interesting hack for them. X1000 and its Xmos chip for one. Also the hacks for say Kinect type devices I don't have much of problem with as its not going to affect piracy and infact any good use for it that come about will only boost hardware sales of the devices.
piracy is totally irrelevant here. The point is that Sony messed up and now have to face the consequence
And what consequence are you referring to if not losing sales to piracy because of these hacks.
their oh so protected platform is now unwrapped and open, and this is not because someone did anything illegal, but because of their own incompetence.
I think forcing a closed IP system open is illegal.
I still think its all still bs that they want to just be able to explore what's possible with Ps3 hardware, that fine, get a fat ps3 restore to original firmware and have fun in the OtherOS area, why do you need to have access to the latest firmware or PSNetwork?
Plus I only just remember that PS3 has full flash support meaning you can play flash games via their browser, hardly a completely closed system.
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And what consequence are you referring to if not losing sales to piracy because of these hacks.
Agreed that piracy will now be a possibility due to the work that was done during the hacks. But, the only reason the hacking work was done was to reinstate the ability to run Linux that Sony wrongfully (in my opinion) took away. Piracy will now be a consequence of this unfortunately, but that was not the goal of the hacking effort.
The bottom line is, if Sony hadn't taken the OtherOS option away then their console wouldn't have been hacked and piracy would not presently be an issue. So, in my opinion, it's their own fault.
AH.
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I think forcing a closed IP system open is illegal.
In the US at least, under the DMCA it most likely is.
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In the US at least, under the DMCA it most likely is.
Not according to both the library of congress and U.S. District Judge Philip Gutierrez
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/12/xbox-judge-riled/#more-21207
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Has a decision been reached in that case yet?
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Has a decision been reached in that case yet?
Government dropped it's case...
http://paidcontent.org/article/419-governments-first-criminal-copyright-case-falls-apart/
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Ah nice.
I wonder if this will set a precedent going forward.
Wasn't there a similar ruling on jailbreaking phones recently, or was that an exception granted by library of congress?
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I don't own a PS3 but I'm going to buy one now just to play around writing code for it.
I doubt I'll ever buy a game for it nor will I pirate any games either.
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That was the exception granted by the library of congress in August if I recall.
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No. as I have said there are loads of companies and devices out their that want people to make interesting hack for them.
So you are suggesting that people should stop tinkering with devices if the manufactorer disapproves. Right?
And what consequence are you referring to if not losing sales to piracy because of these hacks.
The opening of the PS3 hardware might have many consequences that collides with Sony's business idea for the PS3. Such as third party operating systems, improved media center functionality (at last), games being developed outside Sony's ecosphere etc. just like we've seen on the other consoles that have been opened.
I think forcing a closed IP system open is illegal.
A totally irrelevant comment, noone is forcing anything and the "closed" IP system only appeared to be closed. On closer inspection it was not closed at all, perhaps it was intended to be closed, but in the end it was wide open.
I still think its all still bs that they want to just be able to explore what's possible with Ps3 hardware, that fine, get a fat ps3 restore to original firmware and have fun in the OtherOS area, why do you need to have access to the latest firmware or PSNetwork?
Why not? That's what one pay for, right? Now you can decide for yourself what needs you have and run whatever firmware you like, it is how it should have been from the start from a customers POV.
Plus I only just remember that PS3 has full flash support meaning you can play flash games via their browser, hardly a completely closed system.
We have already established that is a completely open system by now.
I really don't understand your agenda in this discussion.
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Anyone defending Sony, probably can't remember their previous anti piracy scandle involving rootkit installed on to windows PC from audio CD's, opening the OS to other malware. Sony deserves everything it gets.
Gaz
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Anyone defending Sony, probably can't remember their previous anti piracy scandle involving rootkit installed on to windows PC from audio CD's, opening the OS to other malware. Sony deserves everything it gets.
Gaz
Stop buying shitty music
Stop using windows.
Huzzah!
Corporations screwing with peoples computers will hopefully help people make better choices, or put the corporation out of business. Either way, we are one step ahead.
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I don't own a PS3 but I'm going to buy one now just to play around writing code for it.
I doubt I'll ever buy a game for it nor will I pirate any games either.
the makers of Ico and Shadow of the Colossus come with a new game called The Last Guardian....
http://ps3.ign.com/objects/142/14230646.html
video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPpCKjFrXzE
Ico
http://ps2.ign.com/objects/014/014833.html
Shadow of the Colossus
http://ps2.ign.com/objects/490/490849.html
other great games..
heavy rain..
http://ps3.ign.com/objects/811/811232.html
the uncharted drake series...
http://ps3.ign.com/objects/812/812550.html
http://ps3.ign.com/objects/142/14225971.html
http://ps3.ign.com/objects/094/094314.html
red dead redemtion
http://ps3.ign.com/objects/748/748481.html
http://ps3.ign.com/objects/080/080424.html
gt5
http://ps3.ign.com/objects/857/857126.html
gods of war 3
http://ps3.ign.com/objects/886/886158.html
these are just a few games that you will buy or pirate, thats for sure..
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!
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Stop buying shitty music
Stop using windows.
Huzzah!
Corporations screwing with peoples computers will hopefully help people make better choices, or put the corporation out of business. Either way, we are one step ahead.
As a music collector I continue to buy cd's but I refuse to buy any that have any type of anti-piracy measures on them, as most of my music comes from independent lables its not much of an issue. I remember taking a CD back to the shop because its anti piracy wouldn't let it play in my car stereo.
Unfortunatly a lot of the world listens to "shitty" music and uses windows, my point is still valid.
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If you took away peoples rights in one go they would notice. But when they get whittled away slowly people just accept it. Without Godwin ing myself... Newer generations care less and less about hard won freedoms, anything not in their small hamster cage just takes away from their entertainment time.
In the old days a system would have been left open as a selling point to enthusiasts. Now people want everything quick and simple. Enthusiasts get shafted pretty much.
Everything is about money. No one (over generalization) does anything to contribute something useful, except maybe in boom times when they will try anything that might make a buck.
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So you are suggesting that people should stop tinkering with devices if the manufactorer disapproves. Right?
No. did you finish reading my sentences? Microsoft is hardly overjoyed that people are hacking its Kinect device to do weird effects with, I think thats ok, hell I have a driver on my pc that lets me use my ps3 web cam and joypad if i like. Hacking these kind of device to be used on other machine I dont really have a problem with. The problem I have with this is it clearly going to used by the majority of people to get free games.
The opening of the PS3 hardware might have many consequences that collides with Sony's business idea for the PS3. Such as third party operating systems, improved media center functionality (at last), games being developed outside Sony's ecosphere etc. just like we've seen on the other consoles that have been opened.
You got to admit though that piracy is the big one. Plus I will say it again if you not happy by what is offered by Sony, buy an alternative product. Hell at the moment I use my ps3 as my media hub, but it just doesn't support all the media files I want it to and it web browser is pretty poor (still glad it has one) this is why I decided to build my own media center pc this year so I wont have any of these problems.
A totally irrelevant comment, noone is forcing anything and the "closed" IP system only appeared to be closed. On closer inspection it was not closed at all, perhaps it was intended to be closed, but in the end it was wide open.
Highlighted the problem for you, it was intended to be closed weather it was or not is irrelevant, sony didn't intend to let this happen. Plus still to run unapproved software you are going to have to copy Sonys key, weather you like it or not, that key is a Sony code so by copying or misusing it your are breaking the law.
Why not? That's what one pay for, right? Now you can decide for yourself what needs you have and run whatever firmware you like, it is how it should have been from the start from a customers POV.
Well technically you get what you pay for is right, meaning if Sony sold you a fat PS3 with firmware v1 that is all your technically entitled to, Sony doesn't have to provide updates to any user who doesn't agree with any new end user agreement they make. Plus if your happy with what you paid for why do you feel the need to hack it and allow it to do more that what it said it could do, why not just buy a machine that lets you do what you want it to do. after all the "limited" features of the ps3 is all you paid for, right? why do you think you should be entitled to more than what you paid for, the main reason PS3 is cheaper than what it should be is due to the fact Sony get a nice % on anything you buy for it.If you dont agree with that system then your should be buying a computer.
I really don't understand your agenda in this discussion
Well I'm going to call it a day in this discussion because i dont want to be seen as a fan boy, or a troll or a supporter of DRM and copyright crap, I'm not at all.
The main reason I posted was because I didn't like the general attitude of some people saying that:
Sony 100% deserves this, (they where the only game console that did allow and supported linux on it to begin with, so they dont, but thats just my view.)
That its was only done to get Linux back on it (again no one forced you to upgrade firmware, and linux if far better on other devices...like a computer would you believe! Again just my point of view)
and that it ok to pirate the games and get them for free (ok no one said that last one, but I'm pretty sure thats what a lot of people are thinking.)
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at the moment I use my ps3 as my media hub, but it just doesn't support all the media files I want it to.
what media files of yours do the ps3 not support?
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@ AmigaNG
use TVersity. It transcodes nearly all formats (apart from ISOs, annoyingly!!) to the PS3.
Excellent software.
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Well, let's see. Jailbreaking an iPhone is now considered legal in the US. Apple didn't want anyone to jailbreak it, people have and it is legal. This is no different. People DO pirate stuff on the iPhone once it is jailbroken, though for a lot of people that is not why. I personally jailbreak my iPhone so that I can tether my iPad to it. This was a function that was not allowed by Apple. Others do it so that they can use the phone on another network and so on.
Piracy is against the law and I am all for that. I know how I felt when they took the Other OS feature away. That was wrong. I don't care what excuse they used. It was wrong. For me it was the principal of paying for something that was advertised as a feature and then it being taken away after you purchased it. There were MANY other ways they could protect themselves from that hack - like Microsoft do with banning from xBox live. Stealing what you rightly paid for was not right.
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the makers of Ico and Shadow of the Colossus come with a new game called The Last Guardian....
http://ps3.ign.com/objects/142/14230646.html
video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPpCKjFrXzE
Ico
http://ps2.ign.com/objects/014/014833.html
Shadow of the Colossus
http://ps2.ign.com/objects/490/490849.html
other great games..
heavy rain..
http://ps3.ign.com/objects/811/811232.html
the uncharted drake series...
http://ps3.ign.com/objects/812/812550.html
http://ps3.ign.com/objects/142/14225971.html
http://ps3.ign.com/objects/094/094314.html
red dead redemtion
http://ps3.ign.com/objects/748/748481.html
http://ps3.ign.com/objects/080/080424.html
gt5
http://ps3.ign.com/objects/857/857126.html
gods of war 3
http://ps3.ign.com/objects/886/886158.html
these are just a few games that you will buy or pirate, thats for sure..
Don't judge me by your own standards. I don't steal so I won't pirate any games, I don't play games either so I won't buy any either.
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Why not? That's what one pay for, right? Now you can decide for yourself what needs you have and run whatever firmware you like, it is how it should have been from the start from a customers POV.
From a customers POV? There are two sides to any sale: the seller's and the buyer's. If the two agree on the price and other terms, the sale proceeds. If not, both parties can go their seperate ways.
About the only people that might feel aggrieved is those that purchased the first version PS3's to run Linux, and their compensation would be to get a refund when they return the hardware.
What is happening here is the buyer is altering the item in a way that will cause financial harm to the seller-not might, but WILL cause financial harm to the seller. i don't see how you can justify this, really.
And for those who think Sony "deserve this" eg for removing OtherOS and the Audio Cd rootkit fiasco, you've just admitted that this will be used for none other than piracy, because running OtherOS won't harm them, so what else will if not piracy.
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What is happening here is the buyer is altering the item in a way that will cause financial harm to the seller-not might, but WILL cause financial harm to the seller. i don't see how you can justify this, really.
And why does this cause harm to the seller? Because, as I argued in an earlier post, Sony's business model is flawed. They're subsidizing the cost of their hardware with software. That was their decision, and the market is proving it to be a bad one. Technically, if I bought a PS3 and dumped it straight in the trash I'd be causing them the same financial harm, but no one would give me flak for that.
Once a product is out on the market, people will use it how they wish, EULAs be damned. It's where innovation comes from - repurposing and improving existing ideas. Look at this camera stabilizer made from pipes (http://littlegreatideas.com/stabilizer/diy/). That's not how the pipe manufacturer intended their pipes to be used, but do you think they're furious about it? No, they'd probably be delighted because it means more sales to consumers who might not ordinarily buy pipes - a new market segment. And it's instant profit, because their overhead costs are built into the price of their pipes.
In fact, take a look at just about anything at http://makezine.com. Or, closer to home, look at the Natami, which was derrived from a C-One board. These are all hacked and modified devices that most likely brought a little extra cash to the parts suppliers that might otherwise not have made those sales.
So if Sony is locking themselves out of this market - the market for hardware hackers, open-source enthusiasts, university researchers, cluster computing datacenters, governments - by failing to cost-reduce their hardware or to subsidize it from a less volatile corporate division, then it's their own damn fault for reaping the financial consequences when the market self-corrects to compensate for their shortsightedness.
And the piracy angle? Yeah, this might result in a bunch of 14-year-olds getting free games, but Sony really should have seen it coming; it's a fact of life. Pretty much every copy protection scheme ever designed has been cracked, so they need to be approaching anti-piracy the same way they'd approach poor sales - better marketing, lower software prices, better supply chain and stock management, promotions, and, dare I say it, better software products that people want to buy.
Do they "deserve" it? No, but they made a business decision and now they have to live with the consequences.
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From a customers POV? There are two sides to any sale: the seller's and the buyer's. If the two agree on the price and other terms, the sale proceeds. If not, both parties can go their seperate ways.
About the only people that might feel aggrieved is those that purchased the first version PS3's to run Linux, and their compensation would be to get a refund when they return the hardware.
What is happening here is the buyer is altering the item in a way that will cause financial harm to the seller-not might, but WILL cause financial harm to the seller. i don't see how you can justify this, really.
And for those who think Sony "deserve this" eg for removing OtherOS and the Audio Cd rootkit fiasco, you've just admitted that this will be used for none other than piracy, because running OtherOS won't harm them, so what else will if not piracy.
I already intentionally harm Sony... I only buy used games for my ps3 ever since they took away my otheros option.
http://www.omgn.com/feature/2010/12/08/used-video-games
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but it really unlikely AOS4 or MorphOS would be ported to this platform without the direct approval of Spny (whether the hack exists or not) as this would open up Hyperion or the MorphOS development team to legal actions.
That's why I said AROS in my == piracy? list instead of OS4/MOS.
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In the US at least, under the DMCA it most likely is.
If it's legal to jailbreak an iphone, why not legal to also jailbreak a PS3?
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/07/feds-ok-iphone-jailbreaking/
Every three years, the Librarian of Congress and the Copyright Office entertain proposed exemptions to the DMCA, passed in 1998. The act forbids circumventing encryption technology to copy or modify copyrighted works. In this instance, Apple claimed the DMCA protects the copyrighted encryption built into the bootloader that starts up the iPhone OS operating system.
But the Copyright Office concluded that, “while a copyright owner might try to restrict the programs that can be run on a particular operating system, copyright law is not the vehicle for imposition of such restrictions.”
A federal appeals court came to the same conclusion last week in an unrelated dispute about “dongles,” or keys that grant access to software. “The owner’s technological measure must protect the copyrighted material against an infringement of a right that the Copyright Act protects, not from mere use or viewing,” (.pdf) the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in a case concerning a software licensing flap between MGE UPS Systems and GE Consumer and Industrial.
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@ AmigaNG
use TVersity. It transcodes nearly all formats (apart from ISOs, annoyingly!!) to the PS3.
Excellent software.
Personally, I prefer "PS3 Media Server". It transcodes all formats, including ISOs, allows you to switch transcoding engines on the fly, turn on/off subtitles from the PS3, and I generally find it streams faster than TVersity (less stuttering and better fastfoward/rewind). Also, PS3 Media Server doesn't require you to update your media database when files are added and internet streams are piped through on demand instead of requiring to be pre-downloaded.
But back on topic... I'm really pleased to see this "hack" or "exploit" or whatever you want to call it. I'm also one of those who bought it as a media player. I only own 4 games for the PS3 and 3 of those are for my kids. Pirated games don't really interest me but the potential homebrew has me excited. If an internet radio app and better browser is made for the PS3 I'll be in heaven! I have to say, the PS3 browser has been my biggest disappointment about the machine. The fact that it had a browser was why I bought it over an XBox360 but over the years the browser's become more and more useless.
I used to have a nice collection of video sites that worked well with the PS3 but it seems every day fewer of them work. Even Youtube can kill the PS3 sometimes. I used to love loading up Grooveshark to stream music to the PS3 but now that's stopped working too (Grooveshark's using HTML5 now). Heck, even Google doesn't display properly on the PS3 browser. If Sony had bothered to keep their browser up-to-date it would be a much more useful machine. If the only way I'm going to get Internet Radio, Web Video, Facebook, Twitter, etc on my PS3 is by hacking it and installing homebrew, I'll do it. If Sony would ever update their browser so I could do all that from there, I probably wouldn't bother with homebrew and Sony would have at least one less hacked console.
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It simple, distributing the software key is an unauthorized use of Sony IP.
You may see an open/freely disbuted OS like Linux us this hack, but it really unlikely AOS4 or MorphOS would be ported to this platform without the direct approval of Spny (whether the hack exists or not) as this would open up Hyperion or the MorphOS development team to legal actions.
Allowing Morphos and OS4 ports would generate a few thousand PS3 sales, while
dissallowing them earns them nothing. Either they are morons, or elitists too rich to care.
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Yes, so by law in Aus everyone could return their PS3 and get their money back 'cos they can't run Linux.
Stand clear for the stampede...........Naught but the sound of crickets chirping....
I don't understand the big deal in running Linux on a games machine..?
Sorry to tell the Linux fan boys but if Linux was freely available on the PS3 nothing would change. Being able to run Linux on a PS3 won't make Linux miraculously popular.
Nor would it unleash a tide of spectacular software to the PS3 scene.
Let it play games. There's nothing wrong with playing games.
It is a computer sold as a games machine to avoid taxes and regulations. I would like to see sony release a computer PSx, so what if the price is a bit higher to pay the federales?
If there was nothing to fear from linux using otheros, why did sony
choose to discontinue a (small) feature? A company
that locks horns with linux teams, had better have $$$ and battle plans,
and the superior coding army. I'm all for corporate profits, as long as
nobody breaks their deals, written or otherwise (no pun intended) :)
I'm not for piracy, and I'm confident the beancounters from Sony pad the prices so customers subsidize the criminals, instead of shareholders doing it.
Not so easy for the smaller devs, who can't spread the losses on such a large field. The world is changing. Cheers
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Gonna chime in on the piracy part. People tend to think that it's a non-issue and that in some cases piracy even "helps" sales. There's _sometimes_ a grain of truth but it's not all of the time or all of the cases.
We've had projects canned and titles cancelled during development for the PC simply because the piracy rate has become so problematic that you might have most people _playing_ your game on the PC, but you've got the most people that have _bought_ your game on the consoles. As a result the publishers simply pull the plug on the PC version entirely.
It doesn't lose the publisher much revenue but for the developer they can have just lost an entire platforms profits and royalties. Of course the PC version can often have a much longer shelf life vs consoles so now you've also got to rely entirely on making your profits and royalties on the launch week of your game... so hopefully there's nothing like Gran Tourismo or something launching at the same time or you'll get literally NOTHING.
So, I think Sony were a bit crap when they removed the OtherOS option, especially as it still listed it on the boxes when the machines were on sale! Removing functionality that people have bought your hardware to use is dishonest I think.
However this does enable piracy, it will mean that it happens more now, and I have been personally affected by piracy in the past. In fact I'm redundant at the moment due to the games industry going through a lot of strife right now so I'm not keen on that side of things.
Dunno where I'm going with all this :) just bored and hungover on Jan 1st I guess!
Happy New Year everyone!
Andy
Has anyone tried having a 30 day pre-launch discount to get initial sales before the pirates can steal?
How about releasing a key each day to unlock a new level, putting pirates and customers on more even footing?
Maybe its time to start your own company, in a low cost of living state. Code an open ended game that can implement new campaigns, worlds, chapters, with fresh graphics/sounds, and a predictable release schedule a fan base can look forward to. Using cross platform dev tools.
Has anyone visited a pirate, wielding educational tools? :hammer: and posted the
the pirates modified GPA? :)
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About the only people that might feel aggrieved is those that purchased the first version PS3's to run Linux, and their compensation would be to get a refund when they return the hardware.
No, in a court, users would demand personal and punitive damages while keeping the hardware.
In a class action suit, it could get ugly, and the spectre of the discovery process, is one that corporate giants greatly fear,
because the head man does not always know the tactics of his employees, for his own protections sake.
A long line of spear-catchers is guaranteed at corporate giants.
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Allowing Morphos and OS4 ports would generate a few thousand PS3 sales, while
dissallowing them earns them nothing. Either they are morons, or elitists too rich to care.
Sony dont need Morphos and OS4 ports, so they would send their lawyers on you if they see any commercial os running on thir ps3. but for the open source x86 aros there shouldnt be any problem if they had the time and wanted to do the port, i think...
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Allowing Morphos and OS4 ports would generate a few thousand PS3 sales, while
dissallowing them earns them nothing. Either they are morons, or elitists too rich to care.
I think the problem for Sony is that they apparently sell the PS3s as a loss-leader. They lose money on the initial hardware sale, but then they hope to recouperate when you purchase software and accessories.
If you're only buying the console so that you can run an OS on it, then they're on to a loser.
Of course, they could always have offered consoles with the OtherOS feature still implemented at a bit of a higher price. I'm not sure if that would have been feasible or not - it depends how much money per console they are losing I suppose.
AH.
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And why does this cause harm to the seller? Because, as I argued in an earlier post, Sony's business model is flawed. They're subsidizing the cost of their hardware with software. That was their decision, and the market is proving it to be a bad one. Technically, if I bought a PS3 and dumped it straight in the trash I'd be causing them the same financial harm, but no one would give me flak for that.
Once a product is out on the market, people will use it how they wish, EULAs be damned. It's where innovation comes from - repurposing and improving existing ideas. Look at this camera stabilizer made from pipes (http://littlegreatideas.com/stabilizer/diy/). That's not how the pipe manufacturer intended their pipes to be used, but do you think they're furious about it? No, they'd probably be delighted because it means more sales to consumers who might not ordinarily buy pipes - a new market segment. And it's instant profit, because their overhead costs are built into the price of their pipes.
In fact, take a look at just about anything at http://makezine.com. Or, closer to home, look at the Natami, which was derrived from a C-One board. These are all hacked and modified devices that most likely brought a little extra cash to the parts suppliers that might otherwise not have made those sales.
So if Sony is locking themselves out of this market - the market for hardware hackers, open-source enthusiasts, university researchers, cluster computing datacenters, governments - by failing to cost-reduce their hardware or to subsidize it from a less volatile corporate division, then it's their own damn fault for reaping the financial consequences when the market self-corrects to compensate for their shortsightedness.
And the piracy angle? Yeah, this might result in a bunch of 14-year-olds getting free games, but Sony really should have seen it coming; it's a fact of life. Pretty much every copy protection scheme ever designed has been cracked, so they need to be approaching anti-piracy the same way they'd approach poor sales - better marketing, lower software prices, better supply chain and stock management, promotions, and, dare I say it, better software products that people want to buy.
Do they "deserve" it? No, but they made a business decision and now they have to live with the consequences.
Let me get this straight:
It Sony's fault for putting a lock on their hardware to protect illegally copied software from running, and it was this action that FORCED the hackers to break that lock, plus its Sony's fault for making the PS3 too cheap and for not selling software at the price buyers want to pay, and its Sony's fault that people want their software for free?
So
1. you have doors with locks in your house, or your businesses has doors with locks to the premises, and when a thief breaks in its your fault, because you fitted locks?
2. I see a fridge I want to buy in a retail shop. i walk in and want it for less. The seller says no. I drive a truck through the stores front door, take the fridge and leave the sum of money I wanted to pay for it, and this is OK, because its the retailers fault for not selling the fridge at the price I wanted to pay for it. Afteral its just the market "self-correcting". Sure, try that in front of a Court.
I've heard a lot of cocamamy justifications for piracy but this takes the cake: its the IP owners fault.
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Anyone defending Sony, probably can't remember their previous anti piracy scandle involving rootkit installed on to windows PC from audio CD's, opening the OS to other malware. Sony deserves everything it gets.
That is a rather deranged argument.
Sony might be a big company, but it's made up of individuals. Also piracy on the PS3 mostly harms the software developers.
But that root kit means that eveyone who has any relationship with Sony deserves to be homeless.
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@ above. Yeah I buy electronics from Hong Kong because it's a tenth of the price you get charged locally. I don't need to steal a fridge to get value.
But what about cases where Intel or Microsoft use thug tactics disadvantage the competition.
They fight each other with lawsuits what's wrong with us getting in on the act? Should we start lobbying for open systems by law?
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Let me get this straight:
It Sony's fault for putting a lock on their hardware to protect illegally copied software from running, and it was this action that FORCED the hackers to break that lock, plus its Sony's fault for making the PS3 too cheap and for not selling software at the price buyers want to pay, and its Sony's fault that people want their software for free?
"Fault" may be too strong a word, but there was a market demand for powerful, open hardware that they weren't meeting. If they can't find a way to turn a profit on hardware alone (like other electronics manufacturers, where the customer's financial relationship with them begins and ends with the hardware purchase), then they've been out-competed. Tough, but that's how it works.
So
1. you have doors with locks in your house, or your businesses has doors with locks to the premises, and when a thief breaks in its your fault, because you fitted locks?
If you didn't buy insurance or have a backup plan for such a contingency, then I'd say yes.
2. I see a fridge I want to buy in a retail shop. i walk in and want it for less. The seller says no. I drive a truck through the stores front door, take the fridge and leave the sum of money I wanted to pay for it, and this is OK, because its the retailers fault for not selling the fridge at the price I wanted to pay for it. Afteral its just the market "self-correcting". Sure, try that in front of a Court.
In this metaphor, is the fridge the hardware or the software? If it's the software, you may have a point, but software piracy doesn't result in collateral damage to sellers, just a denial of sales.
But I'm thinking in terms of hardware. If I buy the fridge and reconfigure it to do something else, for my own use, the seller can't come into my house and undo what I've done to it. In exchange for my modifications, though, I do think it's fair that I waive any claim to a warranty.
I've heard a lot of cocamamy justifications for piracy but this takes the cake: its the IP owners fault.
My main point is that piracy is not the only outcome of this security failure. No question that it's not a good one, but it was a predictable one, and Sony failed to plan for it. They had no proverbial insurance behind their single layer of locks. But if you look at piracy as the ultimate form of competition, they might have better luck approaching it as a sales or access problem. Abusing the purchasers of their hardware isn't the kind of strategy that lends itself to a sustainable business.
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It's actually quite simple:
If I buy a piece of HW, I buy a piece of HW. It's my piece of HW and nooneelses !
Same goes for SW.
Sure I might be forced to click through some "terms of use aggreement", but clicking that one doesn't mean I've agreed with those terms but just that I've aggreed that I must click that gadget to make use of what I've bought....
Or in short : EULA my ......
I Sony sells HW at a loss and was somehow expecting to make up for it by SW-sales..... well thats their prob surely not mine.
And as such I've have the right to do ANY modifications to HW and SW (*) I've bought.
Just for the record:
The only Sony product I own (apart from music CDs that is) is a fat PS/2, still factory sealed. Just because I'm too lazy to mod that old chick doesn't mean I wouldn't have the rights to...
(*) I might consider hacking a light version to a full version as ethical questionable but thats really where it ends
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It will be interesting if post-Christmas ps3 sales maintain or increase historical trends
with new buyers in hopes of homebrew taking off, and what percentage of those buyers will purchase a few games over the course of a year. I had no idea how bad Sony messed up the media/browser capabilities of ps3. Sales must have been good enough, that complacency replaced the pursuit of excellence. Now the tree is shaken.
And its time those security coders to put the resume' in the mail.
Hopefully Microsoft will be hiring :)
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here is a interesting read......
Hacking the PlayStation 3
In the end of 2009, Hotz announced his efforts to hack the Sony PlayStation 3, a console widely regarded as being the only fully locked and secure system of the seventh generation era. Hotz opened a blog to document his progress, and five weeks later, on January 22, 2010, he announced that he had successfully hacked the machine by enabling himself read and write access to the machine's system memory and having hypervisor level access to the machine's processor. Hotz also detailed the many things his work could allow, such as homebrew and PlayStation 2 emulation (a feature removed by Sony in newer revisions of the console to tackle production costs).
On January 26, 2010, Hotz released the exploit to the public. It requires the OtherOS function of the machine, and consists of a Linux kernel module and gaining control of the machine's hypervisor via bus glitching. Hotz wrote that "Sony may have difficulty patching the exploit". On March 28, 2010, Sony has responded by announcing to release a PlayStation 3 firmware update that removes the OtherOS feature, a feature that was already absent on the newer Slim revisions of the machine. This generated an uproar by the PlayStation 3 community. Hotz had then announced plans of a custom firmware, similar to the custom firmware for the PlayStation Portable, to enable Linux and OtherOS support, while still retaining the features of newer firmwares.
As of April 7, 2010, Hotz had posted a video on the internet detailing his supposed progress with custom firmware on the machine, and showing a PlayStation 3 running and having the OtherOS feature enabled on firmware 3.21. He had named his custom firmware as 3.21OO, and said it may work on newer Slim models of the console, as the feature was removed altogether with the launch of the newer revision. However, he had never announced a release date for the alleged firmware nor had he mentioned whether he was working on the same hack for the latest firmware version of 3.41.
On July 13, 2010, Hotz posted a message on his Twitter account stating that he was giving up trying to crack the PS3 any further.
On December 30, 2010, following a presentation at Chaos Communication Congress where new vulnerabilities were published, Hotz released "dePKG", a firmware package decrypter for the Playstation 3.
On January 2, 2011, Hotz published the metldr key on his personal website, which allows users to decrypt and sign anything they wish on their Playstation 3 console using the key. This allows any developer to write and sign their own code to run on the Playstation 3 without Sony's consent.
source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geohot
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Anyone defending Sony, probably can't remember their previous anti piracy scandle involving rootkit installed on to windows PC from audio CD's, opening the OS to other malware. Sony deserves everything it gets.
Gaz
However their employees, customers and the developers who might find it harder to get work probably don't.
That's all my post was talking about. I'm part of the local hackerspace community and I totally support hacking hardware, I just wish people would actually stop deploying the "screw Sony" argument without realising that it will also screw totally innocent people working for companies that aren't Sony.
You can't say it doesn't happen since it has happened, directly, to me and the company I worked for.
Andy
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My main point is that piracy is not the only outcome of this security failure. No question that it's not a good one, but it was a predictable one, and Sony failed to plan for it. They had no proverbial insurance behind their single layer of locks. But if you look at piracy as the ultimate form of competition, they might have better luck approaching it as a sales or access problem. Abusing the purchasers of their hardware isn't the kind of strategy that lends itself to a sustainable business.
Piracy won't affect Sony at first, it'll affect publishers and then they'll pass that onto developers who will lose revenue and make people redundant like me.
I don't actually think that this will affect the PS3 too much at all actually. I mean it's largely screwed PC development over a barrel but the PS3 will be a harder hill to climb and there's so many non-techy types playing the PS3 that it shouldn't become an endemic problem.
I.e. this won't affect Sony, but if it affects anyone then it will be innocent and hard working people employed in the games industry.
I don't mind the hack itself, I think Sony lined itself up good and proper for a kicking for removing the OtherOS feature from the fat PS3's that had it. For those that want it I think it's good but peoples justifications about how piracy will affect Sony are way off. Sony will wriggle and squirm and it won't be them that gets hardest hit.
Andy
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Don't know if anyone has noticed this but if you spell Sony backward you get "Y N OS"
Which with a bit of imagination could be read "Why an OS?" or "Yes No OS ?"
Either way it spells trouble for Sony and OSs.
(o:
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Piracy won't affect Sony at first, it'll affect publishers and then they'll pass that onto developers who will lose revenue and make people redundant like me.
So? Why should I feel more sorry for you than other people who lose revenue and become redundant, people who do far more important work and lose their jobs because of far more silly reasons than yours? You almost make Sony sound like some sort of charity organization, which I'm sure it's not.
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I look forward to being able to load a PS2 emulator so I don't have to have both machines hooked up. I have a PS3 slim, so they'd long since removed that feature.
The PS3 Slim doesn't have any of the PS2 hardware onboard, either the 'Emotion Engine' CPU or the graphics processor, so it'd be impossible for the Slim to emulate the PS2.
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My PC doesn't have any PS2 hardware on board either, but that's where emulation comes in. http://www.emulator-zone.com/doc.php/ps2/
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The PS3 Slim doesn't have any of the PS2 hardware onboard, either the 'Emotion Engine' CPU or the graphics processor, so it'd be impossible for the Slim to emulate the PS2.
uh, the backwards compatibility isn't emulation, lol.
the lack of PS2 hardware is what makes emulation possible (mandatory) to play PS2 games. :D
deurrrrrr
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Can brand new PS3s play PS2 games?
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The PS3's GPU doesn't have a high enough fill-rate to emulate the PS2's GPU(!), that has been commonly documented. Therefore any PS3 without PS2 hardware onboard will never run PS2 software. (I have a launch model 60Gb PS3, PAL, which has the GPU and not the Emotion Engine CPU, and even on that, the PS2 backward compatibility is unfortunately limited.)
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Can brand new PS3s play PS2 games?
No. Only the PS3 models released before October/November 2007 can play PS2 software, and then only the earliest North American and Japanese PS3s have full hardware-based PS2 compatibility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3#Model_comparison
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Root Key has been posted now:
http://kotaku.com/5723105/hacker-claims-to-have-the-ps3s-front-door-keys
Great for the Linux community!
I know people think piracy but here at the university we had a lab of PS3s running Mathematica under Linux because it was cheaper than PC/Macs. No kidding.
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Which key is it that I need to write my own games for PS3?
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It Sony's fault for putting a lock on their hardware to protect illegally copied software from running, and it was this action that FORCED the hackers to break that lock, plus its Sony's fault for making the PS3 too cheap and for not selling software at the price buyers want to pay, and its Sony's fault that people want their software for free?
To me it is simple. It should be legal to hack something one has bought to do whatever one wants to do with it; be it software or hardware. EULAs should be overruled by law it they try to prevent that. Business models that are not compatible with this have to adapt.
It should and is illegal to use something one has not bought; be it stolen hardware or copied software. People not abiding by this may get punished. Piracy needs to be prevented, and services like piratebay IMO may be shut down or blocked until these sites finds a way to remove most of the links to illegal stuff on their site.
greets,
Staf.
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The PS3's GPU doesn't have a high enough fill-rate to emulate the PS2's GPU(!), that has been commonly documented. Therefore any PS3 without PS2 hardware onboard will never run PS2 software. (I have a launch model 60Gb PS3, PAL, which has the GPU and not the Emotion Engine CPU, and even on that, the PS2 backward compatibility is unfortunately limited.)
I feel a bit ashamed talking about PS3 on an Amiga forum, to be honest.. but I do have 2 questions, which I hope someone can answer.
I never knew about the 2 different GPU's inside the PS3.. If that is true, then which of those 2 is regarded the best second-hand PS3 to buy? I do have a PS2 that Im keeping.
Also, its only a matter of time before this allows us to play pirated games.. do I need to worry about being blocked from the Playstation Network at all when doing this? Im not going to do any online gaming or downloading.. if possible I dont even plan to connect it to anything.
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So
1. you have doors with locks in your house, or your businesses has doors with locks to the premises, and when a thief breaks in its your fault, because you fitted locks?
2. I see a fridge I want to buy in a retail shop. i walk in and want it for less. The seller says no. I drive a truck through the stores front door, take the fridge and leave the sum of money I wanted to pay for it, and this is OK, because its the retailers fault for not selling the fridge at the price I wanted to pay for it. Afteral its just the market "self-correcting". Sure, try that in front of a Court.
It's more like if you bought a refridgerator with an icemaker feature included, and a few years later they force their way into your office, tell you sorry, they've decided that you are no longer allowed to make ice cubes even though you've peacefully enjoyed ice cubes for a long time, and forcefully remove the icemaker to take with them. The guys doing this want their icemaker back.
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Hacker Claims To Have The PS3's Front Door Keys...
http://kotaku.com/5723105/hacker-claims-to-have-the-ps3s-front-door-keys
it seems pirated games will be virtually undetectable in this case unlike the risk over-present in the xbox360. i predict a significant jump in sales of ps3s within the year.
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So? Why should I feel more sorry for you than other people who lose revenue and become redundant, people who do far more important work and lose their jobs because of far more silly reasons than yours? You almost make Sony sound like some sort of charity organization, which I'm sure it's not.
Maybe I'm suggesting that it'd be nice if you thought well of anyone who gets screwed over by the unfortunate side effects of the actions of others.
I'm not saying Sony are a charitable organisation, in fact I stated that the release of the keys and the enabling of the otherOS feature is a positive action that they deserved after their stupid and short sighted, borderline illegal I felt, removal of the OtherOS feature.
What I also said was that it is sad that people think that the piracy it will enable will not happen and will not affect people when I know that for some platforms I used to develop for, it already has.
I'm trying to be quite reasonable here, I just stated something about which I have direct and personal experience of.
Andy
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I feel a bit ashamed talking about PS3 on an Amiga forum, to be honest.. but I do have 2 questions, which I hope someone can answer.
I never knew about the 2 different GPU's inside the PS3.. If that is true, then which of those 2 is regarded the best second-hand PS3 to buy? I do have a PS2 that Im keeping.
Also, its only a matter of time before this allows us to play pirated games.. do I need to worry about being blocked from the Playstation Network at all when doing this? Im not going to do any online gaming or downloading.. if possible I dont even plan to connect it to anything.
You'll need one of the older fat PS3s, early revisions with the most usb ports and 20GB or 60GB HDDs sold in the US or Japan... I think! Best to do some reading about it online although keeping a PS2 lying around wouldn't be a bad idea instead ;)
I don't think people know what the effect will be on the online stuff yet. It might be nothing but it'll probably be worth keeping the PS3 offline when playing homebrew stuff at first. People get away with this on the Xbox360 already.
Other than that just don't pirate anything I wrote pwetty pwease :P
Andy
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I know people think piracy but here at the university we had a lab of PS3s running Mathematica under Linux because it was cheaper than PC/Macs. No kidding.
Now that's what I'm glad it's been posted for, I think Sony really were behaving like dicks when they removed the feature from existing machines. It was just a really mean spirited and stupid thing to do. I wish someone could have gotten together a lawsuit and forced the otherOS issue at the time.
Andy
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The PS2 was hacked pretty early on, yet they still managed to sell over 1.5 billion games for it.
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And counting....
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And counting....
And still counting....
http://games.gamepressure.com/games_encyclopedia.asp?PLATFORM=PS2
http://www.gamerevolution.com/release/view.php?system=ps2
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Hacker Claims To Have The PS3's Front Door Keys...
http://kotaku.com/5723105/hacker-claims-to-have-the-ps3s-front-door-keys
it seems pirated games will be virtually undetectable in this case unlike the risk over-present in the xbox360. i predict a significant jump in sales of ps3s within the year.
Hope so, (sales, not piracy) everybody wins, sony can even claim their honour back saying their accountants urged them to weaken security just to trick hackers into
driving the next big thing: universal homebrew dominance. Then they'll
release the computer version PS3.9 :) In two more weeks...
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I feel a bit ashamed talking about PS3 on an Amiga forum, to be honest.. but I do have 2 questions, which I hope someone can answer.
I never knew about the 2 different GPU's inside the PS3.. If that is true, then which of those 2 is regarded the best second-hand PS3 to buy? I do have a PS2 that Im keeping.
The original launch (2006/2007) model had two different sets of GPU and CPU inside, which provided for PS2 backwards compatibility through a second set of hardware. It also had a bunch of other features (SACD support, for example) which along with the PS2 compatibility were dropped when the PS3 was introduced in Europe. Subsequent hardware revisions were pretty much identical to the European console version, in terms of features supported.
I suppose the original launch model could be considered a collector's item by now. In other words, you'd need a very good reason to shell out money for one.
Also, its only a matter of time before this allows us to play pirated games.. do I need to worry about being blocked from the Playstation Network at all when doing this? Im not going to do any online gaming or downloading.. if possible I dont even plan to connect it to anything.
Given how much care software developers devote to releasing patches to the games they ship in poor shape (e.g. the recent "Fallout 3: New Vegas" is considered one of the most bug-ridden games in years, and the makers already released two incremental patches to make the game playable on the consoles and the PC platform), I'd say you have to be able to download bug fixes, etc. Not sure how this will fly with pirated games (presumably, the patches are only applied to legitimate goods), though.
Consider me skeptical. It will require plenty of effort to side-step Sony's inevitable countermeasures, and for what benefit? Most of the games offered today are of poor quality. Play a pirated version of these, or rather throw money at the few good things there are? How much time can you spend on playing games, anyway?
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The PS3's GPU doesn't have a high enough fill-rate to emulate the PS2's GPU(!), that has been commonly documented. Therefore any PS3 without PS2 hardware onboard will never run PS2 software. (I have a launch model 60Gb PS3, PAL, which has the GPU and not the Emotion Engine CPU, and even on that, the PS2 backward compatibility is unfortunately limited.)
I know I said I wouldn't post again, but just to correct this, that this is not true, Sony did release a limited edition Metal Gear Soild 80Gb PS3 without both ps2 gpu or cpu and it allowed you to run PS2 games, I believe it was so you could run Metal Gear Soild 2 and 3 but had a lot of trouble running many other games and was dropped, I believe Sony would have to custom make the way the emulator work for each PS2 game run. However I think this same software is used to power the recent HD PS2 re-releases version of games we've seen, like Metal of Honour and God of War 1 & 2 both have come out since.
oh and on ps3 media limitation, I know I could re-transcode my files but that takes time, plus I dont like having to leave on my big power sucking pc on just to stream data to my ps3, I prefer to just have all my files I need on my console, and wifi single have never been that strong in my house, plus ny 320gb hard drive in the ps3 has nearly over 250gb just on game installs and demos I've downloaded, so I think I will just use my Ps3 as a game machine and have a dedicated computer for my media and other hobby's, with no restitutions, no work around I need to implement etc.
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I know I said I wouldn't post again, but just to correct this, that this is not true, Sony did release a limited edition Metal Gear Soild 80Gb PS3 without both ps2 gpu or cpu and it allowed you to run PS2 games, I believe it was so you could run Metal Gear Soild 2 and 3 but had a lot of trouble running many other games and was dropped, I believe Sony would have to custom make the way the emulator work for each PS2 game run. However I think this same software is used to power the recent HD PS2 re-releases version of games we've seen, like Metal of Honour and God of War 1 & 2 both have come out since.
I don't think this is correct but feel free to prove me wrong. Sony did release an 80GB PS3 MGS4 bundle that had PS2 compatibility (product code PS398011) but this was the CECHE motherboard, the last revision to include the PS2 "Graphics Synthesizer" hardware. There were other MGS4 bundles based on later motherboard revisions lacking PS2 hardware but, far as I know, these do not include any PS2 compatibility.
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oh and on ps3 media limitation, I know I could re-transcode my files but that takes time, plus I dont like having to leave on my big power sucking pc on just to stream data to my ps3, I prefer to just have all my files I need on my console, and wifi single have never been that strong in my house, plus ny 320gb hard drive in the ps3 has nearly over 250gb just on game installs and demos I've downloaded, so I think I will just use my Ps3 as a game machine and have a dedicated computer for my media and other hobby's, with no restitutions, no work around I need to implement etc.
now with the ps3 you can use as big hd you want. its not liker the xbox360... so you can take out the hd go buy a 2tb at your local conmputer shop and install it.. all you do is format it and updated it from from the xmb menu, then your ready to go... use tversity to ftp over the files from your pc to the ps3..
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Given how much care software developers devote to releasing patches to the games they ship in poor shape (e.g. the recent "Fallout 3: New Vegas" is considered one of the most bug-ridden games in years, and the makers already released two incremental patches to make the game playable on the consoles and the PC platform), I'd say you have to be able to download bug fixes, etc. Not sure how this will fly with pirated games (presumably, the patches are only applied to legitimate goods), though.
Consider me skeptical. It will require plenty of effort to side-step Sony's inevitable countermeasures, and for what benefit? Most of the games offered today are of poor quality. Play a pirated version of these, or rather throw money at the few good things there are? How much time can you spend on playing games, anyway?
when you have the master key you can make the ps3 accept any media as original bought one even if it is homebrew or pirated dosent mater. sony cant do anything about it, they must make a new ps4 with better security to figth this one...
when it comes to bad programmed games, specially for the consoles where you must depend on a patch. if not the game makers make it available for download at your pc but only at xmb, you will propably not beable to play the game 5-10years later. this gives you a good reason not to buy it or just pirate it, console games should work out of the box, period. fallout 3 is a very good game and thank god, it is also out on the pc where these patches are far more available.
when it comes to the hacking/pirating i dont think sony or any game companies will suffer more than they do. there is enough of regular joes out there that aint to technical do to anything than just buy games. but for us few other it gives us a choice to do what we want and thats good. sony will now sell more consoles and game companies will have to make their games at higher quality than unfinished bugridden patch releases...
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when you have the master key you can make the ps3 accept any media as original bought one even if it is homebrew or pirated dosent mater. sony cant do anything about it, they must make a new ps4 with better security to figth this one...
I was peripherally involved the ps3 scene before, but I lost interest when the USB hack came out and I haven't really read up on the recent breakthrough, but I still think it's premature to say Sony can't do anything about it.
I remember when people were saying the same thing about the PSP after PSAR dumper came out, but Sony managed to come up with many countermeasures. True, these were eventually also broken, but that took some hard work (and a bit of luck!)
Without really reading more than the headlines of the recent hack, here are my thoughts:
The security of the PS3 relies on the isolated SPU. The SPU is protected by a hardware cipher (probably AES) with an embedded root key. Far as I know, this root key is NOT what's been captured.
Various "loaders" can be executed on the isolated SPU. These loaders takes the place of the hardware crypto engine in the PSP, with the advantage that they can be easily updated. They contain the public half of asymmetric cipher keys, and when an application wants to run on the PS3, it is fed to the right loader which verifies the signature and decrypts the application and schedules it to run. Not a valid signature -> no go.
From the little I've read, I surmise that they managed to break the SPU isolation by finding a bug in one of the loaders (not such a trivial feat!) Once inside the isolated vault they could grab the public keys of the loader, which ought to not be so valuable had Sony not screwed up majorly by letting the private keys be easily derivable from the public keys!
But, while having the private keys of a loader allows one to sign one's own executable, it does not necessarily (actually, with proper security, it definitely ought not to!) allow one to run a patched/modified loader in SPU isolation! So, Sony ought to be able to release updated loaders minus the bug and with new keys, properly created, and a whitelist of old official software allowed to run. If so, the captured keys are only useful with the old firmware.
But who knows? There have been many assumptions (reasonable ones!) about how the PS3 security ought to work, only to be shown that Sony had opted for somethign worse...
I think we'll just have to wait and see if this hack has enough strength to best all of Sony's countermeasures, but one thing is for sure though: Sony is in total control of PSN at least, and I'll bet they go to lengths to lock out hacked consoles from it! Even if possible to masquarade a hacked console, it'll be an arms race at the very least...
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Without really reading more than the headlines of the recent hack, here are my thoughts:
The security of the PS3 relies on the isolated SPU. The SPU is protected by a hardware cipher (probably AES) with an embedded root key. Far as I know, this root key is NOT what's been captured.
they got the rootkey.... if you bother to read you would have known that by now.....
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they got the rootkey.... if you bother to read you would have known that by now.....
Well, I did take the time now, and you're wrong. The root key is the one thing they didn't get (it's embedded in silicon after all, and each console has its own unique key) but they do claim to have broken the chain of trust anyway. Let's see how effective it is.
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Well, I did take the time now, and you're wrong. The root key is the one thing they didn't get (it's embedded in silicon after all, and each console has its own unique key)
If I remember correctly, the 27C3 presentation made a point of describing the PS3 as not having key verification in hardware, like the XBOX 360 has (signature goes in, hardware answers if it matches the private key: you cannot read the private key from the hardware).
Instead the work is being done by a dedicated SPE, which because it is not a specialized key verification device, must be programmed to do the job. And it is vulnerable to attack, because the chain of trust protecting it has been broken.
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If I remember correctly, the 27C3 presentation made a point of describing the PS3 as not having key verification in hardware, like the XBOX 360 has (signature goes in, hardware answers if it matches the private key: you cannot read the private key from the hardware).
Instead the work is being done by a dedicated SPE, which because it is not a specialized key verification device, must be programmed to do the job. And it is vulnerable to attack, because the chain of trust protecting it has been broken.
Well, the PS3 does have hardware verification; it's what provides the basis of the chain of trust. The loaders (or at least one of them) are verified by the hardware as part of entering the isolated SPU (SPE) state. In the 27C3 slides (which I read but didn't watch the presentation) it is claimed that the bootldr is not updatable (residing in ROM?). Perhaps only the bootldr is verified by hardware, and it in turn is responsible for the rest of the loaders and they have broken that chain.
It's kind of stupid, because then this system basically offers no more protection than a hardware cipher as in the PSP (I am not familiar at all with the X360), whereas if all the loaders were updatable, it'd offer protection precisely against this sort of thing where the chain of trust is broken along the way (which is also fascilitated by writing a critical piece of software in such insecure language as C...)
But it's not really unbelievable, there are other strange design decisions too, like the PPU apparently being in control of address translation, even for the isolated SPU...
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Well, I did take the time now, and you're wrong. The root key is the one thing they didn't get (it's embedded in silicon after all, and each console has its own unique key) but they do claim to have broken the chain of trust anyway. Let's see how effective it is.
i am wrong?... what about this then..
GeoHot has gone a step further and simply published the PS3's "root key".
read it here...
http://kotaku.com/5723105/hacker-claims-to-have-the-ps3s-front-door-keys
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i am wrong?... what about this then..
read it here...
http://kotaku.com/5723105/hacker-claims-to-have-the-ps3s-front-door-keys
Some confusion in these reports. Geohot apparently managed to break into metldr via an exploit. Then he could grab the public metldr key and derive the private one in the exact same manner fail0ver did with the other loader. The difference is metldr is lower-level and I think can be used to compromise the rest of the loaders without requiring an exploitable bug in them.
metldr is also supposed to not be updatable and I think I understand their reasoning behind that now: it seems to be verified by the hardware key, but the hardware key is supposed to be unique per console so "how can Sony update it"? Well, who knows, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating...
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Well, the PS3 does have hardware verification; it's what provides the basis of the chain of trust. The loaders (or at least one of them) are verified by the hardware as part of entering the isolated SPU (SPE) state. In the 27C3 slides (which I read but didn't watch the presentation) it is claimed that the bootldr is not updatable (residing in ROM?). Perhaps only the bootldr is verified by hardware, and it in turn is responsible for the rest of the loaders and they have broken that chain.
Yes, the hardware verification is there. I confused it with how and where the keys are stored. On the XBOX360 the keys are on the die, which is why you cannot extract them by means of a software exploit. The PS3 does not store the keys on the die.
The presentation complements the slides. You might want to take a look, as the slides alone tell only part of the story.
It's kind of stupid, because then this system basically offers no more protection than a hardware cipher as in the PSP (I am not familiar at all with the X360), whereas if all the loaders were updatable, it'd offer protection precisely against this sort of thing where the chain of trust is broken along the way (which is also fascilitated by writing a critical piece of software in such insecure language as C...)
If I understand this correctly, the one loader bootstrapping the system cannot be updated, and because the private key it uses has been recovered, it is possible to replace the code the bootstrap loader will load.
The use of the 'C' programming language made the security architecture vulnerable. But even then the vulnerability ought to have had limited impact. As you wrote, the overall design is strange, and how certain parts are implemented (the 27C3 presentation raises questions about encrypted storage, and how the hypervisor design is unsuitable as a security measure) make you wonder how it was designed and reviewed.
It probably was not independently reviewed.
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Yes, the hardware verification is there. I confused it with how and where the keys are stored. On the XBOX360 the keys are on the die, which is why you cannot extract them by means of a software exploit. The PS3 does not store the keys on the die.
The presentation complements the slides. You might want to take a look, as the slides alone tell only part of the story.
Yeah, I had a look last night and it clarified some things.
If I understand this correctly, the one loader bootstrapping the system cannot be updated, and because the private key it uses has been recovered, it is possible to replace the code the bootstrap loader will load.
This is apparently what the situation is presented as. However, it is worth pointing out that at the time of the conference this was not exactly so, because they hadn't compromised metldr at that time. Actually, what they said then was that a non-revokable downgrade method exists, which if true (and before I quit, I was actually working on one myself so I believe it is not impossible for one to exist!), does mean unlimited homebrew on all currently extant PS3s. It does not necessarily mean unlimited piracy (because new games could require a new firmware with new keys and whitelist to block the old compromised ones), but this situation would actually be quite nice :)
But the claim that it's impossible to even securely upgrade the firmware relies on whether metldr really cannot be updated. As far as I can tell, they claim that it can't be updated because it's being signed and encrypted with the per console hardware keys, and how could Sony release an update encrypted with the right unique keys? Well, even one of their members acknowledged that Sony can do it if they happen to have a database of the hardware keys mapped to eg serial number or something. But even if Sony doesn't have that, I still say wait and see, because even if I, or even the talented hackers of fail0verflow are unable to realize how Sony could counter this, that's an argument from ignorance. Similar circumstances existed on the PSP, and although the argument for Sony being screwed then seemed reasonable at first, it turned out somewhat differently when they managed to scrounge up a new secret key that put them back in control. Actually they managed to do this twice, the second time even when their hardware key had been compromised!
But I'm certainly not saying that Sony definitely will be able to pull such a rabbit out of the hat with the PS3, and if history is anything to judge by, even if they do, it might well be just a stopgap measure (especially considering the sorry state of the PS3 security model in reality rather than on paper), but somehow Sony seems to be quite a bit clever in actually getting the horses back in the barn. Or at least they seem to be more clever in getting them back, than they are in making sure they never leave in the first place, hehehe :)
The use of the 'C' programming language made the security architecture vulnerable. But even then the vulnerability ought to have had limited impact. As you wrote, the overall design is strange, and how certain parts are implemented (the 27C3 presentation raises questions about encrypted storage, and how the hypervisor design is unsuitable as a security measure) make you wonder how it was designed and reviewed.
It probably was not independently reviewed.
Yes. I think people really overestimate the importance of security to these companies. Geohot, for example, claimed that he was able to defeat Sony's billions of dollars spent on PS3 security. A good ego stroke perhaps, but that dollar claim doesn't have anything to do with reality :)
Heh, with the PSP, they originally even forgot to turn on their security scheme! Yeah, that's right, the first PSPs would happily ignore all the authentication mechanism and run any old unsigned code, straight out of the box! I'm pretty sure billions of dollars were not spent on that either :)
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the drama continues...
iPhone hacker publishes secret Sony PlayStation 3 key
"The complete console is compromised - there is no recovery from this," said pytey, a member of the fail0verflow group of hackers, who revealed the initial exploit at the Chaos Communication Congress in Berlin in December.
"This is as bad as it gets - someone is getting into serious trouble at Sony right now."
read more here...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12116051
and here is sonys response....
http://www.next-gen.biz/news/sony-responds-to-ps3-hacks
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its sony blabbertalk as usuall... they have lost...
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Im guessing they'll go the microsoft route, and start banning modified (in software or hardware) consoles from the playstation network.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-10790835
An older but related story, and I guess where this is leading in most corners of the world: Use the law to strike it down. Next stop: CD ROM burners and blank paper
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i dont think they can do that, then they will ban their legit consumers to...
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Im guessing they'll go the microsoft route, and start banning modified (in software or hardware) consoles from the playstation network.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-10790835
An older but related story, and I guess where this is leading in most corners of the world: Use the law to strike it down. Next stop: CD ROM burners and blank paper
most people hackin the fuck out of ps3s dont really go on the PSN, seeing as they just sniff the download links and download the games for free and whatnot.
lol
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its sony blabbertalk as usuall... they have lost...
I doubt it. more likely, they released/"leaked" private keys themselves.
see how popular PS2 is.
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heres some more news...
Nilay here -- let's take a look at what's going on. This isn't a "lawsuit" in the traditional sense, since Sony hasn't filed a complaint for copyright infringement or whatever against Geohot and friends. Instead, the company appears to be trying to shove the genie back in the bottle and have the jailbreak and any information about the jailbreak removed from the web by filing a temporary restraining order. That might work in the short term -- Geohot's already pulled his pages down -- but history suggests that the forces of paperwork rarely triumph over the righteous anger of nerds, and that this code is out there for good. That said, we'll see what the court says tomorrow; although we very much doubt Sony's melodramatic proposed motion and order will be granted as written, we wouldn't be surprised if some sort of order is eventually granted -- and then from there a formal lawsuit is likely just a few days away.
read more..
http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/11/sony-sues-geohot-fail0verflow-over-ps3-exploits/
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and even more news...
Dave Touretzky, a Research Professor in the Computer Science Department and the Center for the Neural Basis of Cognition at Carnegie Mellon University, has challenged Sony's legal standing in the case against PS3 hackers and mirrored Geohot's site on the university's servers.
Our friends at Sony are having another bad day: i.e., doing something breathtakingly stupid, presumably because they don't know any better. This time they're suing George Hotz for publishing PS3 jailbreak information, as reported by EnGadget and Attack of the Fan Boy. Hotz's jailbreak allows PS3 owners to run the software of their choice on a machine they have legally purchased. His site is geohot.com.
Free speech (and free computing) rights exist only for those determined to exercise them. Trying to suppress those rights in the Internet age is like spitting in the wind.
We will help our friends at Sony understand this by mirroring the geohot jailbreak files at Carnegie Mellon.
read more...
http://psx-scene.com/forums/f6/carnegie-mellon-professor-challenges-sony-mirrors-geohots-site-75577/
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I should have called it that Sony would respond by suing everyone involved. Second guess would be: Brick everyones console and give them a discount voucher for a Playstation 4. :roflmao:
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its sony blabbertalk as usuall... they have lost...
It's too soon to say that.
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when sony start suing instead of plugging the security hole, then you know they cant fix the problem and have lost.
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when sony start suing instead of plugging the security hole, then you know they cant fix the problem and have lost.
Something to consider:
Reminder: do NOT update to future versions. PS3s are permanently owned through hardware, but Sony can throw roadblocks in your way via SW.
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I have no doubt Sony will attempt to plug this via some "security" related update. And once they have they will insist that in order to access PSN you must have that update installed.
So Sony's security/protection scheme has failed. And its neat that we will have the full access to hardware that was previously blocked by the hypervisor.
But I think labeling this as "epic" is premature and I don't think this is over yet (not by a long shot).
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I have no doubt Sony will attempt to plug this via some "security" related update. And once they have they will insist that in order to access PSN you must have that update installed.
So Sony's security/protection scheme has failed. And its neat that we will have the full access to hardware that was previously blocked by the hypervisor.
But I think labeling this as "epic" is premature and I don't think this is over yet (not by a long shot).
It is epic, there is no other word for it, and it's certainly not premature to call it that. If you read the slides or watched the presentation, you'll see. It's an unbelieable screw up by Sony, simply unbelievable...
A conspiracy-inclined mind might well suspect it was intentional...
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brasses me of some twit trying hack the system cuased them to take away install other os in the first place these people are pain in the a,,,
leave the ps3 to the real users stop wreaking it for us l dont want install linux on my ps3
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It is epic, there is no other word for it, and it's certainly not premature to call it that. If you read the slides or watched the presentation, you'll see. It's an unbelieable screw up by Sony, simply unbelievable...
A conspiracy-inclined mind might well suspect it was intentional...
Yes, the level of stupidity here makes it seem almost suspicious. But Sony has gone out of their way to prevent this in the past, so it probably is what it seems on the surface, a mistake.
And with time and consideration I wouldn't put it past Sony to devise a counter strategy. Its hard to anticipate how they might be able to plug this hole, but since they haven't responded yet I think its more than fair to consider calling this fight over to be premature..
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@actung_bab
:roflmao:
And you're an Amiga user?
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@actung_bab
:roflmao:
And you're an Amiga user?
What I find even more amusing is he has the following in his sig!
Sony Ps 3 Orginal 6 port usb 160 gb hd (os 4.1 ready :-)
:roflmao:
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Just another part of the 'you don't really own it" logic that prevails these day. I'm waiting for some corporate scumbag to suggest an addition to the Digital Mellinium Copyright act that makes altering your own pocessions a crime. Seems like the next logical step now that ripping MP3s from CDs you own is now technically illegal.
Trust me, I glad immortality is not possible because I am convinced the future hold a lot of qualifiers for the freedoms we take for granted today.
I thought using calculators in school was stupid (having been taught multiplication when I went to school).
I can't wait for the day when people have to be hardwired 24/7 to the internet (or something more corrupt) just to compete. I promise you , one day, technology and the Republican party will Borg us all (and you won't have a say in it - hell you'll probably be convinced to support it).
Damn! Now I sound like some kind of hybrid Tea party/scifi geek/paranoid conspiracy nut job. But a new stage in evolution is soon to come upon us, and I'm glad I'm too old to have to face the negative aspects of it.
Android 2.1/2.2 needs constant internet connection(for Google cloud services) for hands-free/voice activation**. **A safety feature while driving the car. My old Nokia Smart Phone doesn't require this BS.
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Android 2.1/2.2 needs constant internet connection(for Google cloud services) for hands-free/voice activation**. **A safety feature while driving the car. My old Nokia Smart Phone doesn't require this BS.
Thanks Hammer,
That is the strongest argument I've heard against Android in a long time. My home State has started requiring hand free operation in vehicles as of Jan 1st.
Requiring an Internet connection is just stupid.
Its time consumer took a stand against devices that force specific "features" on us.
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Thanks Hammer,
That is the strongest argument I've heard against Android in a long time. My home State has started requiring hand free operation in vehicles as of Jan 1st.
Requiring an Internet connection is just stupid.
Its time consumer took a stand against devices that force specific "features" on us.
It's also complete bollox!
It doesn't require an internet connection to use my Bluetooth hands free adapter.
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It's also complete bollox!
It doesn't require an internet connection to use my Bluetooth hands free adapter.
A question, Nicholas. Do Android devices have to be constantly connected to the Internet to have any real utility or are there enough non-cloud based apps to make it worth using when you're not connected? Because frankly I'm not convinced that 'Cloud Computing' isn't another enormous scam.
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A question, Nicholas. Do Android devices have to be constantly connected to the Internet to have any real utility or are there enough non-cloud based apps to make it worth using when you're not connected. Because frankly I'm not convinced that 'Cloud Computing' isn't another enormous scam.
You don't need the internet for anything except installing apps from the market.
My 12yr old son's handset is NEVER connected to the internet except for when he visits me at weekends and uses my wifi to get more apps.
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Before going aggro on the hackers, realize that if it wasn't for hackers, there would be no internet (abusing/using the phone system to send and steal data, when it was origianlly designed for voice transmission).
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You don't need the internet for anything except installing apps from the market.
My 12yr old son's handset is NEVER connected to the internet except for when he visits me at weekends and uses my wifi to get more apps.
Thanks, I just like the idea of Linux based devices. The idea that Microsoft is readying a version of Windows 8 for ARM is troubling.
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Yes, the level of stupidity here makes it seem almost suspicious. But Sony has gone out of their way to prevent this in the past, so it probably is what it seems on the surface, a mistake.
And with time and consideration I wouldn't put it past Sony to devise a counter strategy. Its hard to anticipate how they might be able to plug this hole, but since they haven't responded yet I think its more than fair to consider calling this fight over to be premature..
I have no doubt it's were are talking "mistakes" here. But if they were really serious about security, it's something that wouldn't have occurred. Really. Regardless of whether Sony has the ability to rewrite a completely new and 100% secure firmware, the way they mucked up the crypto makes them deserve an "epic fail" stamped on their foreheads anyway.
And, even though fail0verflow were kind enough to classify it as "just a bug in a loader", I'd say blindly copying user supplied data with a user supplied size in a security-critical loader is pretty "epic fail" that too. It's not like buffer overflows are unknown, or have been for the last decades, geez!
It's kind of obvious that junior programmers are responsible for these things. If Sony really cared about security, they would hire better people to design and implement the security systems. And I don't mean they have to hire Geohot either. :)
What little I've seen of the 360, it's a LOT better designed (as well as implemented.)
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geohot speaks on youtube...
[youtube]QXqIssgzML8[/youtube]
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more news here...
Hotz stands firm on his motivation behind hacking the console (he wanted to return the "Other OS" feature to the PS3) and also takes the opportunity to refute claims he's only interested in hacking so the PS3 can play pirated games.
read..
http://kotaku.com/5733293/ps3-hacker-being-sued-for-making-sony-mad
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What little I've seen of the 360, it's a LOT better designed (as well as implemented.)
Wide spread piracy leading to MS banning modded consoles, and the first generation of 360's coughing and dying on a regular basis?
Im not sure I'd take the 360 as an example of better design ;)
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Wide spread piracy leading to MS banning modded consoles, and the first generation of 360's coughing and dying on a regular basis?
Im not sure I'd take the 360 as an example of better design ;)
It is indeed dangerous to speak out when I only know so very little, but I did mean security model, not hardware design of course :) And yeah, I forgot about the foul up with the insecure DVD drive, but other than that, what little I've seen of the design seems pretty good, no? Certainly not without flaws (I think the most serious the bug that allowed extraction of the CPU key, but unlike the PS3, this was not due to failure of the whole security model, and did require pretty impressive sophistication to hack, well, far as I know at least...) but the security model seems cohesive, whereas Sony just seems to have tossed together bits and pieces without caring how they support (or in Sony's case, don't!) each other.
One nifty thing, for example, X360 memory is apparently protected with secure hashes and no code/data ever goes outside the CPU in clear text. Unlike the PS3 which places all faith in the XDR mem being out of reach to attackers due to its high speed. Geohot's original supervisor hack (XDR glitching) is just a special case of manipulating the XDR, and really, Sony can do nothing (like removing OtherOS) to protect against that. For sure! So yeah, someone could "just" hook up to the XDR and inject any code they want to run, unlike the 360 where this is impossible, by design.
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Can someone who is in the know provide an answer to the following question.
I've been following this as I was interested in using Emulators on my PS3. However the emulators I've seen state that they need to run on Geohots Unofficial Firmware.
So if you need unofficial firmware won't Sony be able to see that your PS3's firmware is different to the official one, which in turn would allow them to act against people using it.
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Can someone who is in the know provide an answer to the following question.
I've been following this as I was interested in using Emulators on my PS3. However the emulators I've seen state that they need to run on Geohots Unofficial Firmware.
So if you need unofficial firmware won't Sony be able to see that your PS3's firmware is different to the official one, which in turn would allow them to act against people using it.
until now they havent seen anyone... so the ps3 jailbreak usb plug with the latest cracked xmb 3.55 firmware update is safe so far. but to be 100% save you unplug the ps3 from the net.
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I was under the impression that you need the CFW to install the package files for the emulators, but once they're installed, you can revert to the official firmware and still play them, since they are properly signed executables.
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I have no doubt Sony will attempt to plug this via some "security" related update. And once they have they will insist that in order to access PSN you must have that update installed.
So Sony's security/protection scheme has failed. And its neat that we will have the full access to hardware that was previously blocked by the hypervisor.
But I think labeling this as "epic" is premature and I don't think this is over yet (not by a long shot).
gezz how many people here posting actually own a ps3 you have to update the software to log on to psn network always been that way, as for the other comment am l a aimga person yes l am . and just brought my second ps3 orginal 60 gb model so l got 2 ps3 s hehe
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gezz how many people here posting actually own a ps3 you have to update the software to log on to psn network always been that way, as for the other comment am l a aimga person yes l am . and just brought my second ps3 orginal 60 gb model so l got 2 ps3 s hehe
I had a PS3, but gave it away. The only game I got for it was orange box to play portal, the rest of the time I used it for Linux. Never bothered with PSN. With PS3 security now shattered, I'm considering picking up a slim to play with Linux on it again. I also have two Wii consoles for which I have bought lots of games, but both of them also have homebrew and also run Linux. I have two old XBOX machines with modchip and XBMC, and for them I have quite a few games that I bought. I also have a Gamecube that I bought solely for hacking, it has modchip, custom cabinet to allow regular sized DVDs and used Gecko to bootstrap Linux. I also run Linux on three Amigas and an old m68k Mac Quadra 910, my G4 minimac, G4 iBook, 4 NSLUs, WL500gx, WLHDD, Zaurus SL5500, eeePc 901, a handfull of PCs and emulated systems (aranym, qemu).
Are you saying I should give up my hobby of hacking linux on whatever device I want, just so you can have peace in mind?
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I had a PS3, but gave it away. The only game I got for it was orange box to play portal, the rest of the time I used it for Linux. Never bothered with PSN. With PS3 security now shattered, I'm considering picking up a slim to play with Linux on it again. I also have two Wii consoles for which I have bought lots of games, but both of them also have homebrew and also run Linux. I have two old XBOX machines with modchip and XBMC, and for them I have quite a few games that I bought. I also have a Gamecube that I bought solely for hacking, it has modchip, custom cabinet to allow regular sized DVDs and used Gecko to bootstrap Linux. I also run Linux on three Amigas and an old m68k Mac Quadra 910, my G4 minimac, G4 iBook, 4 NSLUs, WL500gx, WLHDD, Zaurus SL5500, eeePc 901, a handfull of PCs and emulated systems (aranym, qemu).
Are you saying I should give up my hobby of hacking linux on whatever device I want, just so you can have peace in mind?
Awesome! :roflmao:
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and just brought my second ps3 orginal 60 gb model so l got 2 ps3 s hehe
You know what's even cooler? Having 3 PS3's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh1jB4hVJRg
:D
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latest...
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
January 14, 2011
Law Firms defend Sony's Accusations against George Hotz
San Francisco, California – Today, attorneys Stewart Kellar and Yasha Heidari announced they intend to vigorously defend the baseless accusations asserted by Sony Computer Entertainment America LLC (“Sony”) against Mr. George Hotz.
“Make no mistake,” Stewart Kellar, intellectual property attorney and e-ttorney at law™ stated, “this case is not about Sony attempting to protect its intellectual property or otherwise seek bona fide relief from the court. Rather, it's an attempt from Sony to send a message that any individual using Sony hardware in a way Sony does not deem appropriate will result in harsh legal consequences from a multi-billion dollar company, irrespective of any legal basis or authority for such action.”
Sony recently filed suit against a number of individuals, including Mr. Hotz, a 21-year-old computer prodigy who is well-known for his accomplishments and innovations in the field of phone and computer development, such as for creating the ability to provide for iPhone interoperability between various cellular network carriers. Citing unfounded concerns and a dubious legal basis for jurisdiction, Sony seeks relief from the Court due to Mr. Hotz re-enabling core functionality of the Playstation 3.
“I think it is quite telling that Sony, who is legally required to provide notice to Mr. Hotz before seeking any special relief with the Court, decided to e-mail Mr. Hotz a copy of their motion at 7 p.m. when a hearing was scheduled for the next morning at 9 a.m. in California, while Mr. Hotz does not even live in California. Sony is seeking various unreasonable relief, such as seizing Mr. Hotz's personal property and computers. Luckily, the Court postponed the hearing,” said Yasha Heidari, Esq., managing partner at Heidari Power Law Group, LLC.
Mr. Kellar added, “This case not only has profound implications for the parties involved, but it also implicates core property rights for every consumer out there.” Recently in April of 2010, citing the fact that the Playstation 3's terms and conditions reserve the right to modify the PS3's settings and features, Sony inexplicably issued an “upgrade” that removes the end user's ability to utilize the PS3's OtherOS functionality. Consumer familiar with the PS3 know that OtherOS is a powerful tool that is critical in allowing its users to utilize the PS3 as a personal computer. Sony had previously touted the PS3's OtherOS as a major selling point and feature that would receive Sony's continued support. Yet, despite this, Sony took the position that consumers must either choose to upgrade the PS3 to play newer game titles and lose OtherOS support, or ignore the update to keep OtherOS but be prohibited from playing newer titles.
Mr. Heidari stated, “While most companies issue firmware upgrades to increase a product's abilities over its life cycle, Sony has taken the unacceptable and draconian approach of decreasing the PS3's capabilities by actually destroying a core feature of the PS3. Imagine taking in your car for an oil change and having the manufacturer remove your car's air conditioner, radio, and half its horsepower because of fears that other hypothetical individuals might abuse their vehicles. It just doesn't make any sense, and it's a slap in the face to the consumers that put their support behind the product.” Mr. Kellar proclaimed, “This case rests on Sony's misguided belief that it has the unfettered ability to control how consumers use the products they legitimately purchase.”
Both attorneys agree that Sony's interpretation of the law is quite troubling. The attorneys state they hope the judge will deny Sony's motion, but regardless of how the judge rules, they fully intend to defend Mr. Hotz in this action, which has wide-spread implications for consumers globally.
News Source:
http://www.hplawgroup.com/PR-Hotz-Jan-14-2011.pdf
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some great news! the custom 3.55 firmware is ready for ps3...
http://twitter.com/hackinblack/status/26973008144891905
:)
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Okay here's the latest: If you buy a PS3 game you will only be able to install it 5 times before it is junked. Info in this article:
http://www.techeye.net/security/sony-plugs-ps3-root-key-hole-with-blu-ray-serial-keys (http://www.techeye.net/security/sony-plugs-ps3-root-key-hole-with-blu-ray-serial-keys)
I would call it the anti-piracy mutually assured destruction arms race.
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Okay here's the latest: If you buy a PS3 game you will only be able to install it 5 times before it is junked. Info in this article:
http://www.techeye.net/security/sony-plugs-ps3-root-key-hole-with-blu-ray-serial-keys (http://www.techeye.net/security/sony-plugs-ps3-root-key-hole-with-blu-ray-serial-keys)
I would call it the anti-piracy mutually assured destruction arms race.
The gap between consoles and PC's continue to close
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If it's true then it will kill the second hand market for ps3 games.
Although it can only count if you go online.
Rather boring if that is all they could come up with.
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If it's true then it will kill the second hand market for ps3 games.
Although it can only count if you go online.
Rather boring if that is all they could come up with.
A lot of the game industry have been vocal about wanting to kill the second hand market for a long time, as to them, there's zero difference between you torrenting the game or buying it from someone on ebay. With PC gaming, it basically succeeded.
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Geohot's Lawyers Move For Dismissal + Sony's Response
The legal battle, between George Hotz (geohot) and Sony, continues to unfold in the great state of California. When we last covered this subject, the court had denied Sony's request for a restraining order, as the judge felt California did not have jurisdiction over the matter. Sony has been fighting this issue ever since, arguing that California does indeed have jurisdiction. Sony's latest basis for this argument, is a PSN account with the username "Geo1Hotz", which Sony is claiming as George Hotz's account. However, geohot's lawyers are shooting down these claims, and are moving for dismissal of the case all together.
Read more: http://psgroove.com/content.php?691-Geohot-s-Lawyers-Move-For-Dismissal-Sony-s-Response#ixzz1BzKBmYdf
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EraseMe v1.1 Released - Erase and Generate Fake Activity Log
EraseMe v1.1. This app erases your "previously played" log. In addition to erasing your log, his app also generates a new one, filled with fake games played. It is recommended that you make your own unique list of games played.
The thought behind this program, is to run it prior to going online onto the PSN, to remove your play logs from Sony's peering eyes. It is possible that by deleting these logs, it will protect your console from the threat of being banned.
Read more: http://psgroove.com/content.php?687-EraseMe-v1.1-Released-Erase-and-Generate-Fake-Activity-Log#ixzz1BzKwiUuG
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gezz how many people here posting actually own a ps3 you have to update the software to log on to psn network always been that way
Then don't log in if you've messed with it. I never logged into anything with my old Xbox or PS2, never had a problem with having messed with them. If you want to be able to do stuff online, and you also want to mess with a machine, I think it's something to consider to have two of them. One to meddle with, and one to keep the way Sony/MS/Nintendo/whoever wants it to be.
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a interesting youtube video about the linux that was made for the ps3... now you can understand why people are pissed of, when sony removed the 'otheros' function..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLxKjvuvSpY
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As a previous Lik-Sang customer I welcome Sony getting shafted. This is the company that made mod chips for the consoles they themselves produced (the PS2) and then sued Lik-Sang for selling them, forcing them out of business. Evil gits, they deserve all they get, the worst bit of the Lik-Sang story is that the courts supported such tactics from Sony. Welcome to the future.